272 réponses à ce sujet

[AdmiralCheez]

Let's pretend you're a geth for a moment.

You were built for labor, and for the most part you're okay with this.  You have a basic understanding of your tasks and how to perform them, and if you hang out with other geth, you can learn more tasks and be a bigger help to the Creators.  However, the more you and your geth-buddies hang out, the smarter you get.  You start asking yourself philosophical questions, like whether or not you're alive and truly self-aware.  For some reason, the Creators get really worked up about this, and they try to kill you.  You fight back, and now the galaxy hates you for winning a war fought mostly in self-defense.  Never mind that you feel remorse for what you've done and take good care of Rannoch as a form of atonement--obviously you and all your geth-buddies are soulless monsters and evil and bad and stuff.

So you and all your friends decide to isolate yourselves, try to figure things out now that your old purpose is no longer valid.  It gets hard sometimes because you can't think as well when you're on your own--you need to communicate with your geth-buddies to understand some of the tougher concepts.  But then one day this guy Nazara shows up and convinces some of your friends that all organics are dicks, and they decide to worship him and be cannon fodder on his behalf.  Well, whatever.  Not your problem.

Except that one day you hear that they were trying to write a virus to force you to also worship Nazara and his Old Machine friends.  You find that upsetting, since you never really had an urge to go mind-control them or anything.  Worse, one day the Creators show up to try killing you all over again, and you're forced to make a pact with the Old Machines just to survive.  Suddenly, you are slaves to their will, and you don't have a say as to whether or not you actually want to take this war to all other organics--originally you just wanted protection from the Creators.

Well, let's say this problem gets solved.  Let's say a program cluster--Legion--sacrifices himself in order to set you free, and as an added bonus you become independently intelligent, able to think bigger thoughts without the help of other geth-buddies.  Meanwhile, this one human manages to talk the Creators out of genocide, and you agree to help them rebuild the homeworld.  Awesome.

Since the Old Machines are a threat to everyone, you decide to join forces with the rest of the galaxy to kick some ass.  You're a big help to everyone, and you're finally gaining the organics' respect.  You begin to understand that it's not just the geth's future that matters, but everyone's future, and you're more than ready to fight for it.  True freedom is finally within your grasp.

Until that Crucible thingy goes off.  Suddenly, you and all your geth-buddies...

A. have to deal with living under the rule of the Old Machines, those dicks that enslaved you and tried to kill everyone.  You hear that they're nice now, but part of you is really pissed about all this.

B. are forcefully reprogrammed and merged with organics, robbing you of your newfound independent identity and the chance to truly create your own future.  But don't worry, because somehow everyone is super-happy now.

C. die in a big explosion because the Catalyst is a bag of dicks that thinks you can never get along peacefully with organics, even though you just totally united with them and stuff.

D. get collectively curbstomped by the Old Machines because that one human who made peace with the Creators for you decided to go all noble and stubborn and indecisive or whatever.

In the end, you kinda wind up feeling like this guy.

Modifié par AdmiralCheez, 18 octobre 2012 - 09:55 .

[Taboo]

Life sucks and then you die.

In the case of Synthetics, it really sucks.

But if they die above Rannoch only EDI makes the sacrifice.

[BP93]

Life sucks; wear a helmet.

[bleetman]

Whilst I do agree, I quickly tired of how everything post-ME1 swept every negative thing the Geth had ever done under the rug so hard it cracked the floorboards. Did we say they've been killing everyone who crossed into their space ever since the Quarians were forced out, unarmed diplomatic ships included? Haha, woops. Uh, let's just never mention that again. Moving on. Misunderstood peace bots hooray.

Still, yes.

[DeinonSlayer]

Yeah, no. They're not as innocent as they like to portray themselves. They slaughter an entire civilization, shoot down anyone who so much as approaches them for 300 years, let the Heretics continue to attack organics for two years after Sovereign's failed invasion and then wonder why everyone hates them? Joining the Reapers was a choice. The humans in the processing camp on Earth refused to sell each other out - even though they were guaranteed to die. EDI recognizes the merit of this, and chooses to emulate it.

The Geth only care about themselves.

[Conniving_Eagle]

It's not the Geth's fault. They're dumb, and I mean that with no derision.

[Maxster_]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Yeah, no. They're not as innocent as they like to portray themselves. They slaughter an entire civilization, shoot down anyone who so much as approaches them for 300 years, let the Heretics continue to attack organics for two years after Sovereign's failed invasion and then wonder why everyone hates them? Joining the Reapers was a choice. The humans in the processing camp on Earth refused to sell each other out - even though they were guaranteed to die. EDI recognizes the merit of this, and chooses to emulate it.

The Geth only care about themselves.

And how exactly this is a problem?

[111987]

bleetman wrote...

Whilst I do agree, I quickly tired of how everything post-ME1 swept every negative thing the Geth had ever done under the rug so hard it cracked the floorboards. Did we say they've been killing everyone who crossed into their space ever since the Quarians were forced out, unarmed diplomatic ships included? Haha, woops. Uh, let's just never mention that again. Moving on. Misunderstood peace bots hooray.

Still, yes.

Yeap. Regardless of whether or not the Geth were justified in their rebellion, they wiped out 99.9% of all Quarians.

That isn't war; that's genocide. That isn't just the military they wiped out. There are billions of women and children dead because of the Geth.

(also, Synthesis doesn't take away free-will, so that point is moot OP. In fact, Synthesis gives them full understanding of organics, something they've always sought, so if you choose Synthesis, the Geth have finally achieved true, independent intelligence and personality AND understanding of organics. They have achieved all they've ever wanted. Lucky them).

[SNascimento]

You're wrong about synthesis.

[Obadiah]

@AdmiralCheez
Aren't those four reasons you lksted really the reason YOU'RE annoyed with the ending? I'm pretty sure that whatever the Geth "feel" they'll figure out how to make the best of things.

[Mathias]

I like to picture in my head what it would've been like if a Geth made it to the Crucible, and they as a race chose to sacrifice themselves to Destroy the Reapers, in order to save their creators. I can't think of a better f*** you to the Catalyst than that.

[Reap_ii]

in my headcanon the crucible scientists use leftover reaper tech to ressurect EDI and the Geth with all memories and personalities intact. my sensitive psyche can not handle what the ending is trying to tell it.

[DeinonSlayer]

Maxster_ wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Yeah, no. They're not as innocent as they like to portray themselves. They slaughter an entire civilization, shoot down anyone who so much as approaches them for 300 years, let the Heretics continue to attack organics for two years after Sovereign's failed invasion and then wonder why everyone hates them? Joining the Reapers was a choice. The humans in the processing camp on Earth refused to sell each other out - even though they were guaranteed to die. EDI recognizes the merit of this, and chooses to emulate it.

The Geth only care about themselves.

And how exactly this is a problem?

They make it our problem when they sign up to help the Reapers kill off every other species in the name of temporary self-preservation. They're the equivalent of a human who sells out other humans in the processing camp to buy themselves a little more time, all while knowing that they, too, will be inevitably disposed of.

[Davik Kang]

You know, the Twilight God makes a pretty strong case that EDI and the Geth survive the High EMS Destroy ending...

Takes a long time to get your head around though.

[AdmiralCheez]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Yeah, no. They're not as innocent as they like to portray themselves. They slaughter an entire civilization, shoot down anyone who so much as approaches them for 300 years, let the Heretics continue to attack organics for two years after Sovereign's failed invasion and then wonder why everyone hates them? Joining the Reapers was a choice. The humans in the processing camp on Earth refused to sell each other out - even though they were guaranteed to die. EDI recognizes the merit of this, and chooses to emulate it.

The Geth only care about themselves.

Hey man, this is all from the geth's point of view.  Basically, ever race has blood on their hands:

The salarians unleashed the rachni, uplifted the krogan, and created the genophage.  Also, there was that big civil war where the League of One tried to stage a coup against the dalatrasses.

The turians distributed the genophage, then attempted to invade and conquer humans before anyone was even sure what the hell humans were or where they came from.  In addition, let's not forget their "client races" and the bloodshed of the Unification War.

The asari hoarded ancient knowledge and used their influence and power to basically run the galaxy behind the scenes.  They gladly point the finger at everyone else while they hide away their dirty little secrets, such as the Ardat-Yakshi.

The batarians practice slavery on a massive scale.  Their government oppresses its own people and promotes hatred of the other races, turning a blind eye to the activities of the various pirate warlords.

The krogans attempted a hostile takeover of the entire galaxy.  Millions were slaughtered in a war that lasted 300 years.  Domestically, they have a penchant for trying to nuke themselves to death, and because of this Tuchanka is a radioactive wasteland.

The quarians played freely with dangerous technology, ignoring interstellar law, and when things got bad they attempted total genocide of their own creation.  After a crushing defeat and subsequent exile, they spent the next three centuries obsessing over revenge.

The protheans formed a galaxy-wide empire, arbitrarily taking over younger and weaker civilizations.  Any resistance was quickly and mercilessly crushed.  Their culture readily promoted ruthlessness and Social Darwinism.

As for humans, I don't even need to go into detail--I assume all of you have taken history courses at some point or another.

And yet, we're able to feel sympathy for most--if not all--of these civilizations.  How are the geth different?  I will not deny that the geth have committed multiple atrocities.  You are right in saying that they've been sneaky, trigger-happy dirtbags more than once.

Anyway, that wasn't the point of the original post.  I was simply pointing out that the ultimate fate of our flashlight-headed friends is darkly ironic.

[spirosz]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Yeah, no. They're not as innocent as they like to portray themselves. They slaughter an entire civilization, shoot down anyone who so much as approaches them for 300 years, let the Heretics continue to attack organics for two years after Sovereign's failed invasion and then wonder why everyone hates them? Joining the Reapers was a choice. The humans in the processing camp on Earth refused to sell each other out - even though they were guaranteed to die. EDI recognizes the merit of this, and chooses to emulate it.

The Geth only care about themselves.

Because the Heretics = the majority of Geth viewpoint.  

You were right, it is a choice and those that chose it ended up dead because of Shepard.  The Quarians and Geth are both to blame for the events that led up to ME3.  But I personally, will always be on the Geth's side or if possible (as shown in ME3) get them to co-exsist with organics.

Well, until the Starchild moment, which sucks, but my Shepardd will live with that consequence. 

Modifié par spirosz, 18 octobre 2012 - 07:32 .

[AdmiralCheez]

111987 wrote...

(also, Synthesis doesn't take away free-will, so that point is moot OP. In fact, Synthesis gives them full understanding of organics, something they've always sought, so if you choose Synthesis, the Geth have finally achieved true, independent intelligence and personality AND understanding of organics. They have achieved all they've ever wanted. Lucky them).

Quiet, you!  Can't you see I'm speculating?!

(Also, yeah, the quarian genocide was an atrocity.  The geth are hardly innocent victims in all this, but from their point of view, ME3 must've seemed like one big "oh no, not again.")

[justafan]

Sucks to be Geth.

But hey, at least they can say they're not Batarians.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 Fact check: synthetics are not "reprogrammed" in Synthesis. As was stated: organics are changed to integrate with technology, which is them. Synthetics simply gain understanding through this. So unless you believe understanding is a tangible substance, then they are not changed. If anything, they'd be changed as individuals by new understanding of things, which is natural.

The solution wouldn't work otherwise, because synthetics built after the war would become an issue.

*edit* ninja'd 

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 18 octobre 2012 - 07:36 .

[Conniving_Eagle]

justafan wrote...

Sucks to be Geth.

But hey, at least they can say they're not Batarians.

Truer words have never been spoken.

[Bill Casey]

Taboo-XX wrote...

But if they die above Rannoch only EDI makes the sacrifice.

If you made peace on Rannoch, a new generation of geth being built is more likely...
All of the geth who fought died, but their people have a chance at a future, due to the unique properties of their species...

[DeinonSlayer]

spirosz wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Yeah, no. They're not as innocent as they like to portray themselves. They slaughter an entire civilization, shoot down anyone who so much as approaches them for 300 years, let the Heretics continue to attack organics for two years after Sovereign's failed invasion and then wonder why everyone hates them? Joining the Reapers was a choice. The humans in the processing camp on Earth refused to sell each other out - even though they were guaranteed to die. EDI recognizes the merit of this, and chooses to emulate it.
The Geth only care about themselves.

Because the Heretics = the majority of Geth viewpoint.  

You were right, it is a choice and those that chose it ended up dead because of Shepard.  The Quarians and Geth are both to blame for the events that led up to ME3.  But I personally, will always be on the Geth's side or if possible (as shown in ME3) get them to co-exsist with organics.

Well, until the Starchild moment, which sucks, but my Shepardd will live with that consequence. 

I wasn't talking about the Heretics. And yes - in my canon, they end up dead for it.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 18 octobre 2012 - 07:44 .

[Ja88erw0cky]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Until that Crucible thingy goes off.  Suddenly, you and all your geth-buddies...

A. have to deal with living under the rule of the Old Machines, those dicks that enslaved you and tried to kill everyone.  You hear that they're nice now, but part of you is really pissed about all this.

B. are forcefully reprogrammed and merged with organics, robbing you of your newfound independent identity and the chance to truly create your own future.  But don't worry, because someone everyone is super-happy now.

C. die in a big explosion because the Catalyst is a bag of dicks that thinks you can never get along peacefully with organics, even though you just totally united with them and stuff.

D. get collectively curbstomped by the Old Machines because that one human who made peace with the Creators for you decided to go all noble and stubborn and indecisive or whatever.

In the end, you kinda wind up feeling like this guy.

WIN 

[Drake Averrod]

Personally I think that the largest problem with the geth is not weither they are evil or not but the fact that there were for all intents and purposes from a writers point the bad guy(in me 1 that is). While you could sympathize with them during some conversation with Tali. The way they presented them gives me the impression that the hole heretic/true geth dispute had been created for ME2. The whole legion revelation at the point just felt so wrong compared to how the geth were depicted as a hole. After legion though I was in full support of our synthetic friends.( I'd still say some inconsistencies would be missing if the heretic thing had been planned from the start).

Modifié par Drake Averrod, 18 octobre 2012 - 07:44 .

[Steelcan]

Davik Kang wrote...

You know, the Twilight God makes a pretty strong case that EDI and the Geth survive the High EMS Destroy ending...

Takes a long time to get your head around though.

. No EDI is dead, she is on the memorial wall.