272 réponses à ce sujet

[AdmiralCheez]

AlanC9 wrote...

So they don't show up in the ending slides.... by accident?

Hackett doesn't show up in the Synthesis/Control slides.  Is Hackett dead?

[Ender Ghost]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

@Ender Ghost: That makes me sad. The fact that it's a likely scenario makes me sadder.

Yeah, the geth got really cheated by the whole thing, they join the organics in a war that they don't need to fight, the fact that they joined them in the war was a huge thing to do, syntetics joining organics against over whelming odds, and all of their allies hate them for no reason and then either way they either die (at the hands of their allies) or they are turned into slaves (at the hands of their allies and/or reapers).

As a huge fan of the geth I really think they got the short end of the stick from the whole thing.

[pmac_tk421]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

So they don't show up in the ending slides.... by accident?

Hackett doesn't show up in the Synthesis/Control slides.  Is Hackett dead?

In synthesis there is no reason for hackett to be dead. In destroy there is ample reason to belive that the geth die. Its not a valid comparison. Oh yes and the head canon mis-spelling has nothing to do with our debate.

Modifié par pmac_tk421, 20 octobre 2012 - 09:24 .

[Sajuro]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

So they don't show up in the ending slides.... by accident?

Hackett doesn't show up in the Synthesis/Control slides.  Is Hackett dead?

yes, he facepalmed himself to death
very tragic

[mauro2222]

4stringwizard wrote...

Actually, Legion says the Geth let them go basically because they were too stupid to comprehend going out and pursuing them.  Seems the Geth make a lot of decisions out of stupidity.  (Exactly what so many people love to say about the Quarians).

They have an excuse, they were few, a synthetic collective who just became self aware and has the intelligence of an infant under attack (get away, if it still atacks, then you attack). The same happened after the Quarians destroyed the Dyson Sphere, they became very dumb, survival was a prime directive, they acted on fear and the Old Machine took the chance.

Modifié par mauro2222, 20 octobre 2012 - 10:17 .

[mauro2222]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

You would keep our flaws? I doubt your judgment in this case. I'm perfectly willing to sacrifice what we are; such continuity has no inherent value.

Those same flaws prevent us from having the judgment to know what to get rid of in the first place.  What if love's not a virtue after all, but an outdated mechanism for kin loyalty?  What if altruism is ultimately detrimental?  What if we really are better off without art, without hope, without pleasure?

We'd be machines, Xil.  That's what perfection is: pure logic, without any of the instinctive shortcuts left over from back when we didn't have the processing power to independently consider each decision.  There'd be no beauty anymore, because beauty is something we made up.  There'd be no good or evil, because they're labels we invented to define our behavior.

What if things were perfect, Xil?  What if, in the beginning matter and antimatter were produced in equal amounts?  Then there'd be no universe.  What if matter was distributed evenly when the universe first expanded?  Then gravity would fail to pull things together, and there'd be no planets or stars.  What if stars never died?  Then the heavy elements that make us up would never have been forged and subsequently released into the universe.  What if the early biosphere reached equilibrium?  What if there were no mutations or shifts in environment?  We would never have evolved.  What if we never struggled against the elements and ourselves?  Then we'd never become intelligent and civilized.  What if we never wasted our time with fantasy?  Then we'd lose the products of our dreams.

We are the children of freak coincidence, forged by our challenges, given direction by our flaws.  We are the avatars of disequilibrim, the chaos that thinks.  The universe we were spawned in is every bit as imperfect and subject to entropy as we are.  And the machines we build, even they aren't flawless.

Perfection doesn't exist, and if it did, we wouldn't be here.

Have a nobel...

[pmac_tk421]

mauro2222 wrote...

4stringwizard wrote...

Actually, Legion says the Geth let them go basically because they were too stupid to comprehend going out and pursuing them.  Seems the Geth make a lot of decisions out of stupidity.  (Exactly what so many people love to say about the Quarians).

They have an excuse, they were few, a synthetic collective who just became self aware and has the intelligence of an infant under attack (get away, if it still atacks, then you attack). The same happened after the Quarians destroyed the Dyson Sphere, they became very dumb, survival was a prime directive, they acted on fear and the Old Machine took the chance.

Pretty much what mauro said sums it up.

[byarru]

Yeah. At least in the synthesis they seem to be happy (no, they're still free-willed-canon-wise)

[SeptimusMagistos]

Ender Ghost wrote...
 or they are turned into slaves (at the hands of their allies and/or reapers).

Wait, what? When is this implied?

[4stringwizard]

pmac_tk421 wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

4stringwizard wrote...

Actually, Legion says the Geth let them go basically because they were too stupid to comprehend going out and pursuing them.  Seems the Geth make a lot of decisions out of stupidity.  (Exactly what so many people love to say about the Quarians).

They have an excuse, they were few, a synthetic collective who just became self aware and has the intelligence of an infant under attack (get away, if it still atacks, then you attack). The same happened after the Quarians destroyed the Dyson Sphere, they became very dumb, survival was a prime directive, they acted on fear and the Old Machine took the chance.

Pretty much what mauro said sums it up.

Not sure I buy that.  The game never really makes it clear what the main reason was.  

When Shepard flat-out asks Legion why they sided with the Reapers, all he says was "It was a very difficult decision."  

Modifié par 4stringwizard, 20 octobre 2012 - 11:34 .

[Eckswhyzed]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

You would keep our flaws? I doubt your judgment in this case. I'm perfectly willing to sacrifice what we are; such continuity has no inherent value.

Those same flaws prevent us from having the judgment to know what to get rid of in the first place.  What if love's not a virtue after all, but an outdated mechanism for kin loyalty?  What if altruism is ultimately detrimental?  What if we really are better off without art, without hope, without pleasure?

We'd be machines, Xil.  That's what perfection is: pure logic, without any of the instinctive shortcuts left over from back when we didn't have the processing power to independently consider each decision.  There'd be no beauty anymore, because beauty is something we made up.  There'd be no good or evil, because they're labels we invented to define our behavior.

What if things were perfect, Xil?  What if, in the beginning matter and antimatter were produced in equal amounts?  Then there'd be no universe.  What if matter was distributed evenly when the universe first expanded?  Then gravity would fail to pull things together, and there'd be no planets or stars.  What if stars never died?  Then the heavy elements that make us up would never have been forged and subsequently released into the universe.  What if the early biosphere reached equilibrium?  What if there were no mutations or shifts in environment?  We would never have evolved.  What if we never struggled against the elements and ourselves?  Then we'd never become intelligent and civilized.  What if we never wasted our time with fantasy?  Then we'd lose the products of our dreams.

We are the children of freak coincidence, forged by our challenges, given direction by our flaws.  We are the avatars of disequilibrim, the chaos that thinks.  The universe we were spawned in is every bit as imperfect and subject to entropy as we are.  And the machines we build, even they aren't flawless.

Perfection doesn't exist, and if it did, we wouldn't be here.

Why do people confuse perfection with pure logic? What the frick does that even mean anyway?

What do you mean by "better off without art, without hope, without pleasure?" Clearly if art, hope and pleasure are good things, then we would be able to keep them in a "perfect" world because we'd be "better off" with them. What is this perfect world that is so wonderful without art and hope and pleasure and love and curiousity? You can't describe it, can you? Because it's just a straw man argument, set up to be knocked down easily. What stops the perfect world from having these things? But let's move away from 'perfection' seeing as there are difficulties in obtaining it.

And yes, I would take a self-modifying pill to make me a better person. I've said things I've regrettted, I've done things to other people I should not have, and I have contributed my share of disutility to this world. And I believe I owe it to anyone I meet in the future to not screw things up due to my own biases and prejudices.

Your argument smacks of the sentiment that we need suffering to appreciate goodness. But far too often we are not the ones paying for this suffering.

[Eckswhyzed]

Arcian wrote...

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Perfection doesn't exist, and if it did, we wouldn't be here.

Perfection does exist, everywhere around us and down to the atoms you are made of. The properties of the universe are so finely tuned for our existence that it's impossible to see them as a random result of the Big Bang. Without electromagnetism, we and the physical reality we see around us would not exist. Without gravity, planets and stars would never form. Without the strong interaction, atoms would never form. Without the weak interaction, fusion inside stars would never happen. 

Whilst I mostly agree with what you have to say, I'm not 100% sold on fine-tuning arguments when there's possiblities like multiverse arguments, adjusting multiple constants etc.

Modifié par Eckswhyzed, 21 octobre 2012 - 01:35 .

[Xilizhra]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

So they don't show up in the ending slides.... by accident?

Hackett doesn't show up in the Synthesis/Control slides.  Is Hackett dead?

He could be. Remember, though, the vacant Rannoch slide that appears if you killed the quarians and then picked Destroy.

[spirosz]

Arcian wrote...

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Perfection doesn't exist, and if it did, we wouldn't be here.

Perfection does exist, everywhere around us and down to the atoms you are made of. The properties of the universe are so finely tuned for our existence that it's impossible to see them as a random result of the Big Bang. Without electromagnetism, we and the physical reality we see around us would not exist. Without gravity, planets and stars would never form. Without the strong interaction, atoms would never form. Without the weak interaction, fusion inside stars would never happen. 

Synthesis cannot make perfect what already is perfect. It gives us the means to adapt to a problem, not unlike a paralysed man being given a new spine or a blind man being given new eyes. Synthesis gives us the voice to communicate with synthetics, and gives synthetics the language to understand us.

Synthesis being touted as inevitable does not mean organics will inevitably stuff themselves full with cybernetics (they probably will, but in order to adapt to other, unrelated problems), but that social evolution in a civilization populated with organic and synthetic beings will eventually adapt them to eachother so that the terms dissolve. This can be likened to the world today where we have come from a divided society between "black and white", "gay and straight" and "east and west" to "human", "loving" and "planet earth". Though we are not all the way there, we are closer to the synthesis of these divided terms than we have ever been in the history of our species.

I used to support synthesis, but I realized somewhere along the way that it is a short-term solution to a long-term problem, especially when the same result, peace and unity between organic and synthetic, could be achieved in a couple of millennia in Destroy minus the space magic and organic circuit boards had a certain lead writer not decided to Super MAC the geth from orbit because Dramaz'n'artz.

Well said.

[Eckswhyzed]

Arcian wrote...

Eckswhyzed wrote...

Arcian wrote...

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Perfection doesn't exist, and if it did, we wouldn't be here.

Perfection does exist, everywhere around us and down to the atoms you are made of. The properties of the universe are so finely tuned for our existence that it's impossible to see them as a random result of the Big Bang. Without electromagnetism, we and the physical reality we see around us would not exist. Without gravity, planets and stars would never form. Without the strong interaction, atoms would never form. Without the weak interaction, fusion inside stars would never happen. 

Whilst I mostly agree with what you have to say, I'm not 100% sold on fine-tuning arguments when there's possiblities like multiverse arguments, adjusting multiple constants etc.

That's good. Science would get nowhere if everyone agreed with eachother about everything.

Neither would art

[Ice Cold J]

Agreed, Cheez.

[Apocaleepse360]

It really does not make any sense to me why they can't survive the Destroy ending. They helped in making the Crucible, so they should have figured out a way to make sure that it ignores them when it fires. If my Shepard managed to get the geth and the quarians to form an alliance, then they should deserve to survive and shouldn't perish simply because of a completely different decision that I made. Synthesis should have been the compromise, NOT destroy.

[Boneyaards]

AdmiralCheez wrote...
B. are forcefully reprogrammed and merged with organics, robbing you of your newfound independent identity and the chance to truly create your own future.  But don't worry, because somehow everyone is super-happy now.

Pretty sure all synthetics yearn for organic understanding. Being reprogrammed to finally grasp what they've been searching for sounds like a pretty sick deal to me...

[Twilight_Princess]

Apocaleepse360 wrote...

It really does not make any sense to me why they can't survive the Destroy ending. They helped in making the Crucible, so they should have figured out a way to make sure that it ignores them when it fires.

Shouldn't they have been smart enough to figure out what this technology did as well? Since they themselves were technology? They had access to it so why were they just as derpy about it like everyone else?

Modifié par Hyrule_Gal, 22 octobre 2012 - 02:08 .

[Apocaleepse360]

Hyrule_Gal wrote...

Apocaleepse360 wrote...

It really does not make any sense to me why they can't survive the Destroy ending. They helped in making the Crucible, so they should have figured out a way to make sure that it ignores them when it fires.

Shouldn't they have been smart enough to figure out what this technology did as well? Since they themselves were technology? They had access to it so why were they just as derpy about it like everyone else?

But if that happened, then BioWare wouldn't be able to surprise us with the Star Kid! Things would actually make sense; it would be a disaster!