272 réponses à ce sujet

[AdmiralCheez]

Dear HYR 2.0,

Forcefully injecting new data into someone's mind without their consent counts as reprogramming.  In my opinion, it does not matter if people gain "better understanding" through it and forever are shiny and happy because it violates free will on a galactic scale.  I was uncomfortable with rewriting the Heretics, so it's only natural that I'd take issue with doing the same thing to every sentient being within a 100,000 light-year radius.

Also, Synthesis is interesting as a concept, but it is poorly explained and does not belong in the MEverse.  I'm glad you like it enough to champion it, but after much analysis I have concluded that it is dumb and stupid and also dumb and maybe even a little stupid.  And dumb.

In addition, this is not a thread meant to discuss the merits and drawbacks of the endings (I apologize for digressing, myself).  There are two Synthesis threads on the front page right now--I suggest you take the issue there, and I'll gladly continue the debate.

But seriously, you're not going to change my mind about this.

Love and kisses,

Cheez.

[Ja88erw0cky]

Davik Kang wrote...

You know, the Twilight God makes a pretty strong case that EDI and the Geth survive the High EMS Destroy ending...

Takes a long time to get your head around though.

And that EDI's name is always on the Memorial Wall for Destroy? <_<

Facts, those pesky things, always getting in the way...

[pmac_tk421]

Solution: Don't pick destroy.

[AdmiralCheez]

Drake Averrod wrote...

Personally I think that the largest problem with the geth is not weither they are evil or not but the fact that there were for all intents and purposes from a writers point the bad guy(in me 1 that is). While you could sympathize with them during some conversation with Tali. The way they presented them gives me the impression that the hole heretic/true geth dispute had been created for ME2. The whole legion revelation at the point just felt so wrong compared to how the geth were depicted as a hole. After legion though I was in full support of our synthetic friends.( I'd still say some inconsistencies would be missing if the heretic thing had been planned from the start).

Yeah, the Heretic/True Geth thingamajigger was probably invented for ME2.  However, I started to see them as more than cannon fodder in ME1 for the following reasons:

1. The geth worshipped Sovereign.  Saren mentions this, and on Feros you can see the geth kneeling before a Reaper artifact.  Non-sapient, purely logical constructs wouldn't bother with formulating a religion.  The act of worship in and of itself implies some sort of emotional capability.

2. Saren also mentions that Sovereign is disgusted by the geth--they are but tools to the Reaper, and it cares nothing for them.  I felt sorry for them there because they were submitting to and trusting in a being that would ultimately betray them.  In this respect, they were a lot like Saren, only they made the mistake out of free will.

3. You mentioned the conversation with Tali already; when they gained sapience, their creators' first reaction was to wipe them out.  From birth, they were feared and villified.  At the time, I assumed that was why they hated organics so much.

However, my feelings and speculations took a backseat to my rage against those evil little Sappers and their Rocket Trooper friends.

Colossi and Armatures were also evil turds.  I liked to ram them with the Mako.

Modifié par AdmiralCheez, 18 octobre 2012 - 07:56 .

[Steelcan]

pmac_tk421 wrote...

Solution: Don't pick destroy.

[Maxster_]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Yeah, no. They're not as innocent as they like to portray themselves. They slaughter an entire civilization, shoot down anyone who so much as approaches them for 300 years, let the Heretics continue to attack organics for two years after Sovereign's failed invasion and then wonder why everyone hates them? Joining the Reapers was a choice. The humans in the processing camp on Earth refused to sell each other out - even though they were guaranteed to die. EDI recognizes the merit of this, and chooses to emulate it.

The Geth only care about themselves.

And how exactly this is a problem?

They make it our problem when they sign up to help the Reapers kill off every other species in the name of temporary self-preservation. They're the equivalent of a human who sells out other humans in the processing camp to buy themselves a little more time, all while knowing that they, too, will be inevitably disposed of.

Except they were forced to that point not by the Reapers, but by the Quarians. Not that anyone ever negotiated anything with them before Shepard.
Not a smartest thing to do, but they faced certain death from Quarians. They never considered equals to organic, and they knew that. They now that by losing to Quarians they will be annihilated.
So no, your assertion is not so close to truth, as you think.

Also, using same logic and then choosing anything other than a Reject(or Alt+F4), makes you a hypocrite

P.S. They also willingly joined allied forces afterwards.

Modifié par Maxster_, 18 octobre 2012 - 08:01 .

[Bill Casey]

BansheeOwnage wrote...

Commander Data disagrees with the Starchild.

God damn Star Trek was good...

[Drake Averrod]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Drake Averrod wrote...

 (...)

(...)

All true! We are infact in total agreement! I also do perceive the geth a sentient beings. I am simply annoyed tha BW changed them from simple evil guys to "we're evil and good you no ...because this game has so many shades of grey".

Don't get me wrong I can and do live with it but there are still those minor side missions in ME1 where the expiditions beyond the perseus veil returned as husk ( well in hindsight you could always argue that the heretics did it....still it tastes weird)

[AdmiralCheez]

Drake Averrod wrote...

All true! We are infact in total agreement! I also do perceive the geth a sentient beings. I am simply annoyed tha BW changed them from simple evil guys to "we're evil and good you no ...because this game has so many shades of grey".

I liked the change, personally, and was annoyed that the batarians weren't offered a similar chance at redemption.  But look on the bright side--at least the Reapers are still completely evil!

Wait, what's that?  Control and Synthesis turn them into good guys?  They were mindless slaves of the Catalyst all along?

Oh.  Well, nevermind, then.

Don't get me wrong I can and do live with it but there are still those minor side missions in ME1 where the expiditions beyond the perseus veil returned as husk ( well in hindsight you could always argue that the heretics did it....still it tastes weird)

There are a lot of minor inconsistencies between ME2 and ME1.  Cerberus, in fact, was originally an Alliance-funded black ops group that suddenly went rogue.  This is completely contrary to ME2, where they are and have always been a privately-funded secret organization devoted to the "advancement of humanity."

Obviously, the writers don't spend as much time on the wiki as we do.

[hukbum]

I stopped playing Dosenbier in MP after I shoot the tube.
R.I.P. Dosenbier, we had much fun but I blew you up ...

[Xilizhra]

Wait, what's that? Control and Synthesis turn them into good guys? They were mindless slaves of the Catalyst all along?

Why is that even bad?

[GreyLycanTrope]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Life sucks and then you die.

In the case of Synthetics, it really sucks.

But if they die above Rannoch only EDI makes the sacrifice.

Only one we're aware of. The story we witness takes place in about 2% of the known galaxy. There could easily be others.

EDIT: come to think of it the Virtual aliens are f*cked as well being AI's and all.

Modifié par Greylycantrope, 18 octobre 2012 - 08:26 .

[AdmiralCheez]

Xilizhra wrote...

Why is that even bad?

Because it disrespects the awesomeness that is Sovereign and the campiness that is Harbinger.  Turning the Reapers into victims is like claiming that Josef Stalin was bullied into being an evil dictator by the Illuminati.  You don't get to puppeteer the puppet masters, know what I mean?

EDIT: Arcian, let me love you.

Modifié par AdmiralCheez, 18 octobre 2012 - 08:28 .

[Drake Averrod]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Drake Averrod wrote...

(...)

I liked the change, personally,(...)

There are a lot of minor inconsistencies between ME2 and ME1.  Cerberus, in fact, was originally an Alliance-funded black ops group that suddenly went rogue.(...)

I too liked Legion and I too liked the real Geth. I even more  liked the fact that I could broker peace between the quarians and the geth. I was just enoyed that it wasn't handled in a better way. As for the ceberus thing: this was actually the reason why I stopped playing ME2 after an hour and got drunk ( heck its a reason why I think ME2 is so below potential). 

Modifié par Drake Averrod, 18 octobre 2012 - 08:26 .

[Xilizhra]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Why is that even bad?

Because it disrespects the awesomeness that is Sovereign and the campiness that is Harbinger.  Turning the Reapers into victims is like claiming that Josef Stalin was bullied into being an evil dictator by the Illuminati.  You don't get to puppeteer the puppet masters, know what I mean?

But Sovereign was a total blowhard and Harbinger was, well, campy. I don't see much of value being lost.

[Gervaise]

Then again, if Shepard simply destroyed anyone who had ever joined up with the Reapers, there wouldn't be any Geth to worry about at the end.

Life sucks if you are an advanced lifeform generally while the Reapers are controlling matters. In the current cycle they had just got to the point when everyone was trying to work together, when up pop the Reapers to wipe them out. Then the races have just managed to build something that they hope will rid them of the Reapers forever, yet their "hero" can be persuaded to hold off the harvest but use the Reapers as his personal police force, or they suddenly find themselves with glowing green eyes and electrodes for skin, with the Reapers still in charge (just not killing them). It isn't just the Geth who have it hard.

[AdmiralCheez]

Xilizhra wrote...

But Sovereign was a total blowhard and Harbinger was, well, campy. I don't see much of value being lost.

Next you're going to tell me you liked Matrix Revelations.

[Xilizhra]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

But Sovereign was a total blowhard and Harbinger was, well, campy. I don't see much of value being lost.

Next you're going to tell me you liked Matrix Revelations.

Never seen it. But Sovereign was... kind of a stream of cliches that lost all of their punch after I killed the thing.

[DeinonSlayer]

Maxster_ wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

They make it our problem when they sign up to help the Reapers kill off every other species in the name of temporary self-preservation. They're the equivalent of a human who sells out other humans in the processing camp to buy themselves a little more time, all while knowing that they, too, will be inevitably disposed of.

Except they were forced to that point not by the Reapers, but by the Quarians. Not that anyone ever negotiated anything with them before Shepard.

Not a smartest thing to do, but they faced certain death from Quarians. They never considered equals to organic, and they knew that. They now that by losing to Quarians they will be annihilated.

So no, your assertion is not so close to truth, as you think.

Also, using same logic and then choosing anything other than a Reject(or Alt+F4), makes you a hypocrite

P.S. They also willingly joined allied forces afterwards.

They never negotiated with anyone either. Legion tells us they never even tried. They just occupied the one planet their creators were capable of living on and shot anyone who came near them. It'd be like if Skynet (which was also attacked first) wiped out 99% of the human race, then relented at the last minute, content to let us languish in space for the foreseeable future.

Also, pre-upgrade, they're not equal to organics. They're an immortal gestalt entity - in accordance with Legion's wishes, I don't anthropomorphize them. Each runtime is non-sentient, making each of them akin to a single neuron in one giant brain. The Quarians who first attacked them were wrong to do so, but they're all dead. Everything the Geth have done is still on them. Siding with the Reapers is only the latest thing I'm holding them to account for.

I'd be more open to peace if the Reaper code were off the table, but after what happened with the IFF, I'd trust that code about as far as I can throw Heretic Station. It's only safe to give it to them if you metagame anyway.

[AdmiralCheez]

Drake Averrod wrote...

I too liked Legion and I too liked the real Geth. I even more  liked the fact that I could broker peace between the quarians and the geth. I was just enoyed that it wasn't handled in a better way. As for the ceberus thing: this was actually the reason why I stopped playing ME2 after an hour and got drunk ( heck its a reason why I think ME2 is so below potential).

ME2 is my favorite game ever, but the poor thing kinda forgot that it was supposed to be the middle game in a trilogy.  Felt more like one big sidequest, really.

One big AWESOME sidequest, but I can't deny it had some problems with its core narrative.

Also, there was planet scanning.  I'll bet the guy who came up with that is the same idiot that thought interstellar grocery shopping would be fun OH HAI SO I HEARD YOU LIKE ARTIFACTS.

[honeyiscool]

I feel like ME3 made Quarians out to be the bad guys, not the Geth. Maybe that's just me. But other than Koris, the Quarians were all about genocide on their own end. Even Tali admits she would have chosen extinction for the Geth.

It's funny because Koris was a major douche in ME2, but ME3 puts that into proper context.

[AdmiralCheez]

Xilizhra wrote...

Never seen it. But Sovereign was... kind of a stream of cliches that lost all of their punch after I killed the thing.

HEATHEN!  SIEZE THE HERETIC!

Seriously, though, bad guys don't have to be original to be awesome.  ME1 was a compendium of old-school sci-fi cliches dressed up in a typical "hero's journey" plot, anyway.

[Xilizhra]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Never seen it. But Sovereign was... kind of a stream of cliches that lost all of their punch after I killed the thing.

HEATHEN!  SIEZE THE HERETIC!

Seriously, though, bad guys don't have to be original to be awesome.  ME1 was a compendium of old-school sci-fi cliches dressed up in a typical "hero's journey" plot, anyway.

Saren was interesting. Sovereign was... not. And clearly wrong/lying about several things even in ME1; I have no problem with more of that being shown off in ME3.