272 réponses à ce sujet

[Eterna]

LilLino wrote...

You kinda fail to realise that Shepard is, in fact, organic.
Most of the huge conflicts in Council space. Rachnii Wars  caused by the Reapers caused Krogan Rebellions 1500 years before Shepard. Another war was between Geth&Quarians but since then there was 300 years of peace in Milky Way. That kind of proves your theory of total stupidity wrong.

So one organic who actually has their head screwed on right suddenly means that they're all rational thinking beings? The fact remains that without Shepards intervention they'd all be dead.

[AdmiralCheez]

pmac_tk421 wrote...

I'm more putting it a context of the choice kind of way.

Well, you should, because that's actually what happens.  Refusal to do so is a denial of the conditions that make Synthesis a less-than-optimal option.

Meanwhile, the geth genocide in the Destroy ending is not clearly shown.  It is implied by the Catalyst, but you'd have to be an idiot to blindly trust something claiming to be the core Reaper intelligence.  Sure, the geth are absent from the ending slides, but you don't actually see them die.  I'll give you EDI's death--she's in the flashbacks and her name's on the wall--but the fate of the geth is highly ambiguous.

Even if the genocide was guaranteed, however, I'd still pick Destroy.  Because screw the Reapers, man.

[Eterna]

4stringwizard wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...
Lets not play pretend here. If you made the choice to pick Destroy at least acknowledge what you've done. The Geth did not sacrifice themselves, you made that choice for them. You murdered them.

I'm not going to feel guilty about breaking a bunch of machines that could be alive (and aren't if you take synthesis literally in the EC) when it means defeating an enemy that's bent on destroying all organic races that ARE, in fact, alive. 

EDIT: machines which happened to side with the Reapers when backed into a corner. 

Synthetics are alive, just in a different way. They reach the same level of life with Synthesis. Glyph is a typical machine. The Geth are not. 

[SeptimusMagistos]

LilLino wrote...

Have you just said that your Shepard considers everyone else worse than him,

Nope. He thinks that organics and synthetics are perfectly capable of living in peace. He also thinks that killing all synthetics in the galaxy would make for a monumentally bad start to that. Why hit the reset button when there are some friendly synthetics around already? Let's build on what we have instead of sacrificing sapient beings to paranoia.

LilLino wrote...

uncapable of keeping peace

They aren't incapable, but they certainly weren't complaining when Shepard shot their criminals and warlords as a human. Why complain now?

Besides, most of Shepard's time will be spent on fetch quests anyway.

LilLino wrote...
and that he always wanted to be a God of the Universe?

No, but he always wanted to upload himself into a computer. The human body only lasts about a hundred years and is very hard to upgrade. Shepard didn't think the computer in question would be quite so large, but that's just a bonus.

[Eterna]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

pmac_tk421 wrote...

I'm more putting it a context of the choice kind of way.

Well, you should, because that's actually what happens.  Refusal to do so is a denial of the conditions that make Synthesis a less-than-optimal option.

Meanwhile, the geth genocide in the Destroy ending is not clearly shown.  It is implied by the Catalyst, but you'd have to be an idiot to blindly trust something claiming to be the core Reaper intelligence.  Sure, the geth are absent from the ending slides, but you don't actually see them die.  I'll give you EDI's death--she's in the flashbacks and her name's on the wall--but the fate of the geth is highly ambiguous.

Even if the genocide was guaranteed, however, I'd still pick Destroy.  Because screw the Reapers, man.

If Edi died offscreen would you care to give me a reason as to why the Geth don't? Can you explain why they do not appear in the epilogue slides?

[hukbum]

Eterna5 wrote...

Can you explain why they do not appear in the epilogue slides?

They are software, they're everywhere helping rebuild doing softwarethings

[4stringwizard]

Eterna5 wrote...

4stringwizard wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...
Lets not play pretend here. If you made the choice to pick Destroy at least acknowledge what you've done. The Geth did not sacrifice themselves, you made that choice for them. You murdered them.

I'm not going to feel guilty about breaking a bunch of machines that could be alive (and aren't if you take synthesis literally in the EC) when it means defeating an enemy that's bent on destroying all organic races that ARE, in fact, alive. 

EDIT: machines which happened to side with the Reapers when backed into a corner. 

Synthetics are alive, just in a different way. They reach the same level of life with Synthesis. Glyph is a typical machine. The Geth are not. 

Well then, they can be dead in a different way when my Shepard hits them with the magic red light.  

Modifié par 4stringwizard, 19 octobre 2012 - 10:23 .

[LilLino]

I see your point Septimus, but I will never feel that ruling the universe is heroic. My Shepards have people to live for. Also I believe that control has to fail sooner or later, people will want to overthrow the Reapers once they have the strenght to do that. The King has his reign and then he falls, it's inevitable.

Eterna5 wrote...

So one organic who actually has their head screwed on right suddenly means that they're all rational thinking beings? The fact remains that without Shepards intervention they'd all be dead.

You're trying to argue that your own kind is stupid.
But that also means that an organic who chooses synthesis is stupid too, so he basically makes a stupid decision, because he's organic who could only do intelligent decision if he wasn't organic.
See what I did there?

[DrGunjah]

Eterna5 wrote...
They do preserve Organic life. Stop trying to be clever if you can't even understand the endings.

Yeah, but how? So why should their definition of "peacekeeping" be any better than their definition of "preserving organic life" ?

Reaper logic:

Modifié par DrGunjah, 19 octobre 2012 - 10:26 .

[AdmiralCheez]

Eterna5 wrote...

If Edi died offscreen would you care to give me a reason as to why the Geth don't? Can you explain why they do not appear in the epilogue slides?

Evidence that EDI's dead: her name is on the memorial wall, plus her face was shown in the flashbacks.
Evidence that the geth are dead: none.  Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.  Seriously, if we're going to use that excuse, then is Hackett dead in the Control/Synth endings?

Remember, the Catalyst IMPLIES that synthetics will die ("the Crucible will not descriminate/all synthetics will be targeted"); he never actually says "you shoot that tube, you kill your geth friends."  Besides, the kid claims to be leader of the Reapers, so you shouldn't be trusting him, anyway.  Seriously, give me a good reason to believe anything he says other than "X happened in the EC slides."

So why were there no geth slides in the Destroy EC?  Because speculations!  They wanted the endings to maintain ambiguous, since if one was clearly better than all the others there'd be no point in picking anything else other than 4 teh lulz.

[SeptimusMagistos]

LilLino wrote...

I see your point Septimus, but I will never feel that ruling the universe is heroic.

Neither do I. But you'll notice that Shepard's promises didn't include 'I will overthrow the democratically elected government.' The way I see it Shepard's the same he's always been: a Spectre and a hero. He's just more powerful now. But he was always able to single-handedly wipe out an army, so it's less of a change than you'd think.

LilLino wrote...
My Shepards have people to live for.

As do mine. But none of them are willing to let countless others die so that they themselves can live. Also most of them consider themselves alive in Control, so that's a plus.

LilLino wrote...
Also I believe that control has to fail sooner or later, people will want to overthrow the Reapers once they have the strenght to do that. The King has his reign and then he falls, it's inevitable.

Which is why monarchy is a bad idea. Long live the Galactic Coucil!

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

AdmiralCheez wrote...
So why were there no geth slides in the Destroy EC?  Because speculations!  They wanted the endings to maintain ambiguous, since if one was clearly better than all the others there'd be no point in picking anything else other than 4 teh lulz.

There is a unique Geth slide in the destroy ending, but you only get it if you sided with the Geth against the Quarians.

It shows an empty and vacant Rannoch.

[GreyLycanTrope]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

If Edi died offscreen would you care to give me a reason as to why the Geth don't? Can you explain why they do not appear in the epilogue slides?

Evidence that EDI's dead: her name is on the memorial wall, plus her face was shown in the flashbacks.
Evidence that the geth are dead: none.  Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.  Seriously, if we're going to use that excuse, then is Hackett dead in the Control/Synth endings?

Remember, the Catalyst IMPLIES that synthetics will die ("the Crucible will not descriminate/all synthetics will be targeted"); he never actually says "you shoot that tube, you kill your geth friends."  Besides, the kid claims to be leader of the Reapers, so you shouldn't be trusting him, anyway.  Seriously, give me a good reason to believe anything he says other than "X happened in the EC slides."

So why were there no geth slides in the Destroy EC?  Because speculations!  They wanted the endings to maintain ambiguous, since if one was clearly better than all the others there'd be no point in picking anything else other than 4 teh lulz.

In the original ending he does say point blank that you kill the geth and the effects of each option remain the same in the EC as afar as I know. This sounds like grasping as straws to me. Implying that the Geth are dead and then not showing or even hint that they may have survived seems fairly clear to me.

[iloveexplosives]

remember the geth only killed the hostile quarians i think in the concensus you see synpathetic quarians protecting them.

[Eterna]

You're trying to argue that your own kind is stupid.
But that also means that an organic who chooses synthesis is stupid too, so he basically makes a stupid decision, because he's organic who could only do intelligent decision if he wasn't organic.
See what I did there?

No. Because I just said Shepard is one of the few people who has their head screwed on right. And if our history is anything to go by, Humans are stupid.

Yeah, but how? So why should their definition of "peacekeeping" be any better than their definition of "preserving organic life" ?

You aren't looking at the larger picture. The Reapers stop space faring organics from creating machines that would not just wipe out them, but would wipe out all forms of developing organic life. They harvest advanced Synthetic life before they can reach this step and thus preserve organic life as a whole. Think of the Space faring organics as being a cancer, and the Reapers remove that cancer before it destroys the whole body.

In Control the reapers are led by an AI that is based of your Shepards moral ambiguity.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

If Edi died offscreen would you care to give me a reason as to why the Geth don't? Can you explain why they do not appear in the epilogue slides?

Evidence that EDI's dead: her name is on the memorial wall, plus her face was shown in the flashbacks.
Evidence that the geth are dead: none.  Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.  Seriously, if we're going to use that excuse, then is Hackett dead in the Control/Synth endings?

Remember, the Catalyst IMPLIES that synthetics will die ("the Crucible will not descriminate/all synthetics will be targeted"); he never actually says "you shoot that tube, you kill your geth friends."  Besides, the kid claims to be leader of the Reapers, so you shouldn't be trusting him, anyway.  Seriously, give me a good reason to believe anything he says other than "X happened in the EC slides."

So why were there no geth slides in the Destroy EC?  Because speculations!  They wanted the endings to maintain ambiguous, since if one was clearly better than all the others there'd be no point in picking anything else other than 4 teh lulz.

Yet you trust him when he points out how to destroy them...

[Sebby]

Lizardviking wrote...

There is a unique Geth slide in the destroy ending, but you only get it if you sided with the Geth against the Quarians.

It shows an empty and vacant Rannoch.

That leaves Rannoch open to human colonization. You know, that and EDI being destroyed is tempting me to favor destroy....

[DeinonSlayer]

iloveexplosives wrote...

remember the geth only killed the hostile quarians i think in the concensus you see synpathetic quarians protecting them.

Nope. They killed off 99% of a species of billions which was spread across multiple planets. We're not told the Geth sympathizers were all killed off or detained by their government (though we do see individual incidents of this). Legion merely told us that they were "eventually outnumbered."

Honestly, I think the Geth applied their own consensus-based thinking to their creators. The moment public opinion shifted (which could be expected as Quarian casualties began to mount), all bets were off. I find it suspicious that the Geth are still cleaning up "toxins" left over from the Morning War, three hundred years after its conclusion - it would go a long way towards explaining that kind of a body count.

[Apocaleepse360]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Yeah, no. They're not as innocent as they like to portray themselves. They slaughter an entire civilization, shoot down anyone who so much as approaches them for 300 years, let the Heretics continue to attack organics for two years after Sovereign's failed invasion and then wonder why everyone hates them? Joining the Reapers was a choice. The humans in the processing camp on Earth refused to sell each other out - even though they were guaranteed to die. EDI recognizes the merit of this, and chooses to emulate it.

The Geth only care about themselves.

Okay, let's expand your analogy further, shall we? Let's place it not on the Geth, but the human race. All of those atrocities we have comitted over the course of history. The fact that we would probably make the same decision if we were confronted with the choice that the Geth took. I don't care how ME3 portrays us, humans are far from saints. We've wiped out entire cultures, animal species and done things to our own world that is irreversible.

So by your analogy, we deserve to die in order to protect other life in the Galaxy just as much as the Geth do.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Seboist wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

There is a unique Geth slide in the destroy ending, but you only get it if you sided with the Geth against the Quarians.

It shows an empty and vacant Rannoch.

That leaves Rannoch open to human colonization. You know, that and EDI being destroyed is tempting me to favor destroy....

Well to be fair, why would you want to colonize a dextro planet?

And since it is a dextro planet, I would imagine the Turians getting a higher priority on the planet than humans.

[DeinonSlayer]

Apocaleepse360 wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Yeah, no. They're not as innocent as they like to portray themselves. They slaughter an entire civilization, shoot down anyone who so much as approaches them for 300 years, let the Heretics continue to attack organics for two years after Sovereign's failed invasion and then wonder why everyone hates them? Joining the Reapers was a choice. The humans in the processing camp on Earth refused to sell each other out - even though they were guaranteed to die. EDI recognizes the merit of this, and chooses to emulate it.

The Geth only care about themselves.

Okay, let's expand your analogy further, shall we? Let's place it not on the Geth, but the human race. All of those atrocities we have comitted over the course of history. The fact that we would probably make the same decision if we were confronted with the choice that the Geth took. I don't care how ME3 portrays us, humans are far from saints. We've wiped out entire cultures, animal species and done things to our own world that is irreversible.

So by your analogy, we deserve to die in order to protect other life in the Galaxy just as much as the Geth do.

You think my opinion is formed by racism. It's not. The Geth (as described by Legion) are an immortal gestalt entity - each runtime is nonsentient, akin to a single neuron in one giant brain. The Geth you're seeing now are the same ones who did all of that over the last 300 years. Show me a Krogan who dropped a rock on a colony world, and I'd punish him accordingly.

Legion constantly tells us not to anthropomorphize the Geth. I'm obliging them.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 19 octobre 2012 - 11:21 .

[SeptimusMagistos]

DeinonSlayer wrote...
Nope. They killed off 99% of a species of billions which was spread across multiple planets.

Since when were the qurians spread across multiple planets? Isn't their whole thing that Rannoch is the only planet that can comfortably support them?

DeinonSlayer wrote...
We're not told the Geth sympathizers were all killed off or detained by their government (though we do see individual incidents of this). Legion merely told us that they were "eventually outnumbered."

I took it as a pretty clear euphemism for "wiped out" but I guess technically you don't have to.

DeinonSlayer wrote...
I find it suspicious that the Geth are still cleaning up "toxins" left over from the Morning War, three hundred years after its conclusion - it would go a long way towards explaining that kind of a body count.

What's suspicious about it? It's obvious WMDs were used. The geth have no incentive to walk around from house to house stabbing quarian infants. The only way you could get the kind of casualties implied in the Morning War would necessitate powerful and indiscriminate weapons - which the geth would feel free to use once they were convinced that the quarians would never settle for peace and coexistence.

[DeinonSlayer]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...
Nope. They killed off 99% of a species of billions which was spread across multiple planets.

Since when were the qurians spread across multiple planets? Isn't their whole thing that Rannoch is the only planet that can comfortably support them?

It is now. They used to have multiple colony worlds (Haestrom, Adas, etc). It would take them a while to adapt to them, but they could manage. Their immune systems have degraded so badly by this point, however, that Rannoch is the only place their populace has any chance of surviving long-term (as in, if the Fleet never came back from fighting the Reapers). They are physiologically dependent on their world's native plant life - Rannoch has no insects, large animals (Quarians included) evolved a symbiotic relationship with them.

The Geth seem to have taken over this ecological role in some capacity during their creators' absence. If the player wipes out both the Quarians and Geth, the slide we see makes it look like the plant life on Rannoch dies out as well.

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...
I find it suspicious that the Geth are still cleaning up "toxins" left over from the Morning War, three hundred years after its conclusion - it would go a long way towards explaining that kind of a body count.

What's suspicious about it? It's obvious WMDs were used. The geth have no incentive to walk around from house to house stabbing quarian infants. The only way you could get the kind of casualties implied in the Morning War would necessitate powerful and indiscriminate weapons - which the geth would feel free to use once they were convinced that the quarians would never settle for peace and coexistence.

Of that I have no doubt. As I noted, that seems to have stemmed from the Geth projecting their consensus-based thought process on their creators. Saying that the dissidents were "eventually outnumbered" tells us they were initially the majority. Once the majority shifted, it would seem they treated the entire "Quarian collective" as hostile. Chemical weapons don't discriminate - the Geth would have killed soldier and civilian; antagonist and sympathizer; man, woman, and child alike through such means.

EDI actually theorizes about this - that the Geth wiped out so many Quarians because they didn't view them as individuals.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 19 octobre 2012 - 11:45 .

[SeptimusMagistos]

DeinonSlayer wrote...
Of that I have no doubt. As I noted, that seems to have stemmed from the Geth projecting their consensus-based thought process on their creators. Saying that the dissidents were "eventually outnumbered" tells us they were initially the majority.

If they'd been the majority, I doubt the kind of persecution shown in the consensus could take place.

[DrGunjah]

Eterna5 wrote...
You aren't looking at the larger picture. The Reapers stop space faring organics from creating machines that would not just wipe out them, but would wipe out all forms of developing organic life. They harvest advanced Synthetic life before they can reach this step and thus preserve organic life as a whole. Think of the Space faring organics as being a cancer, and the Reapers remove that cancer before it destroys the whole body.

In Control the reapers are led by an AI that is based of your Shepards moral ambiguity.

Dude you should become sales representative for the reapers. Err, what you asked... complete annihilation of all life.. ? aahh man that's just bad marketing! We do it just for your own good! <3

What else to say.. so you basically agree to the reapers logic? Better said, the leviathans logic. As they want to preserve organic life because synthetics don't worship gods. With other words you agree to a rule made by organics, which you say for yourself are flawed. They do not invent the AI for the "greater good", but for their own benefit.
We could speculate now how often the leviathans actually faced the "synthetics wipe out organics" issue before they created the AI but I fear that would lead to nowhere.
We could also discuss if synthetics wiping out the organics is actually a bad thing (not for you obviously as you compare organic life to cancer ). What if that just has to happen to finally find a balance and therefor peace between synthetics and organics. Not that we already made peace between synthetics and organics on rannoch if we wanted to.