272 réponses à ce sujet

[DeinonSlayer]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...
Of that I have no doubt. As I noted, that seems to have stemmed from the Geth projecting their consensus-based thought process on their creators. Saying that the dissidents were "eventually outnumbered" tells us they were initially the majority.

If they'd been the majority, I doubt the kind of persecution shown in the consensus could take place.

The wording seems clear enough. "Eventually outnumbered" implies "not outnumbered initially" - and we're talking about a government that declared martial law. Seems to have worked plenty of times throughout our own history, especially with a disarmed populace. In any case, EDI theorizes that the reason the Geth killed so many was because they didn't see the Quarians as individuals. They only let the last of them go because they calculated that fully exterminating them would provoke a retaliation from the other species that the Geth would not be able to answer, leading to their own destruction.

[pmac_tk421]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

pmac_tk421 wrote...

I'm more putting it a context of the choice kind of way.

Well, you should, because that's actually what happens.  Refusal to do so is a denial of the conditions that make Synthesis a less-than-optimal option.

Meanwhile, the geth genocide in the Destroy ending is not clearly shown.  It is implied by the Catalyst, but you'd have to be an idiot to blindly trust something claiming to be the core Reaper intelligence.  Sure, the geth are absent from the ending slides, but you don't actually see them die.  I'll give you EDI's death--she's in the flashbacks and her name's on the wall--but the fate of the geth is highly ambiguous.

Even if the genocide was guaranteed, however, I'd still pick Destroy.  Because screw the Reapers, man.

While the dialouge was a little more vague in destroy in the EC, its very similar to the Original dialouge which eplicitly states that the geth will die. Also EDI's name is on the memorial board in destroy, so we can assume that all synthetics are wiped out. In the other endings(except refusal of course) she lives, but she dies in destroy, which involves the destruction of synthetics, so its logical to assume that the geth are targeted as well despite your assumption that the geth don't die in destroy, its pretty obvious. To add to it, of the three original choices(control, destroy and synthesis) destroy is the only ending in the EC where the geth don't show up. If they aren't wiped out on rannoch, they show up in both synthesis and control, but not destroy. Second; again, this is a discussion about what the writers have made cannon, which is that the results are real and the catalyst is telling the truth, so the argument about not trusting the catalyst doesn't apply here.

[SeptimusMagistos]

DeinonSlayer wrote...
The wording seems clear enough. "Eventually outnumbered" implies "not outnumbered initially" - and we're talking about a government that declared martial law.

Legion is capable of ambiguous language. I took and still take "outnumbered" to be a euphemism for "slaughtered".

DeinonSlayer wrote...
In any case, EDI theorizes that the reason the Geth killed so many was because they didn't see the Quarians as individuals. They only let the last of them go because they calculated that fully exterminating them would provoke a retaliation from the other species that the Geth would not be able to answer, leading to their own destruction.

Legion, meanwhile, claims that the geth let them go because they couldn't calculate the ramifications of destroying a species.

[AdmiralCheez]

Greylycantrope wrote...

In the original ending he does say point blank that you kill the geth and the effects of each option remain the same in the EC as afar as I know. This sounds like grasping as straws to me. Implying that the Geth are dead and then not showing or even hint that they may have survived seems fairly clear to me.

The original ending is stupid and thus does not exist.  In addition, I'm really not offended if other people find my evidence too shaky to rely on--it's not meant to convince anyone other than myself.  I've formulated an ending in my head where the Reapers die while the geth live on, and that's the ending I'm sticking to.  Why?  Because it's the kind of ending that (I think) best reinforces the core themes present in Mass Effect as a whole, most importantly the right to choose one's own future and the concept that people can coexist despite their differences.  I don't mind that people are more comfortable choosing a different path (or if they don't agree with playing fast and loose with the canon), since it's their story, and they have a right to enjoy and interpret it however they want.

Also,  the Catalyst is way less stupid if you think of him as a dirty Reaper trick.

@Lizardviking: I didn't know about the "vacant Rannoch" slide.  That's a bummer.  I'll keep that in mind for if/when I do my "worst playthrough ever."

[GabrielsLaw]

If you think that is bad, try and understand what it is like to be a geth on FBW. They keep attacking it but they always get gangster stomped.

[iloveexplosives]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...
Nope. They killed off 99% of a species of billions which was spread across multiple planets.

Since when were the qurians spread across multiple planets? Isn't their whole thing that Rannoch is the only planet that can comfortably support them?

It is now. They used to have multiple colony worlds (Haestrom, Adas, etc). It would take them a while to adapt to them, but they could manage. Their immune systems have degraded so badly by this point, however, that Rannoch is the only place their populace has any chance of surviving long-term (as in, if the Fleet never came back from fighting the Reapers). They are physiologically dependent on their world's native plant life - Rannoch has no insects, large animals (Quarians included) evolved a symbiotic relationship with them.

The Geth seem to have taken over this ecological role in some capacity during their creators' absence. If the player wipes out both the Quarians and Geth, the slide we see makes it look like the plant life on Rannoch dies out as well.

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...
I find it suspicious that the Geth are still cleaning up "toxins" left over from the Morning War, three hundred years after its conclusion - it would go a long way towards explaining that kind of a body count.

What's suspicious about it? It's obvious WMDs were used. The geth have no incentive to walk around from house to house stabbing quarian infants. The only way you could get the kind of casualties implied in the Morning War would necessitate powerful and indiscriminate weapons - which the geth would feel free to use once they were convinced that the quarians would never settle for peace and coexistence.

Of that I have no doubt. As I noted, that seems to have stemmed from the Geth projecting their consensus-based thought process on their creators. Saying that the dissidents were "eventually outnumbered" tells us they were initially the majority. Once the majority shifted, it would seem they treated the entire "Quarian collective" as hostile. Chemical weapons don't discriminate - the Geth would have killed soldier and civilian; antagonist and sympathizer; man, woman, and child alike through such means.

EDI actually theorizes about this - that the Geth wiped out so many Quarians because they didn't view them as individuals.

who says the geth used WMD's quarians could have easly used them in the later stages ot the war when they saw that the geth wernt going down easly. 

[iloveexplosives]

GabrielsLaw wrote...

If you think that is bad, try and understand what it is like to be a geth on FBW. They keep attacking it but they always get gangster stomped.

lol now i realy pity them

[4stringwizard]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...
The wording seems clear enough. "Eventually outnumbered" implies "not outnumbered initially" - and we're talking about a government that declared martial law.

Legion is capable of ambiguous language. I took and still take "outnumbered" to be a euphemism for "slaughtered".

DeinonSlayer wrote...
In any case, EDI theorizes that the reason the Geth killed so many was because they didn't see the Quarians as individuals. They only let the last of them go because they calculated that fully exterminating them would provoke a retaliation from the other species that the Geth would not be able to answer, leading to their own destruction.

Legion, meanwhile, claims that the geth let them go because they couldn't calculate the ramifications of destroying a species.

Actually, Legion says the Geth let them go basically because they were too stupid to comprehend going out and pursuing them.  Seems the Geth make a lot of decisions out of stupidity.  (Exactly what so many people love to say about the Quarians).

Modifié par 4stringwizard, 20 octobre 2012 - 01:34 .

[pmac_tk421]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Greylycantrope wrote...

In the original ending he does say point blank that you kill the geth and the effects of each option remain the same in the EC as afar as I know. This sounds like grasping as straws to me. Implying that the Geth are dead and then not showing or even hint that they may have survived seems fairly clear to me.

The original ending is stupid and thus does not exist.  In addition, I'm really not offended if other people find my evidence too shaky to rely on--it's not meant to convince anyone other than myself.  I've formulated an ending in my head where the Reapers die while the geth live on, and that's the ending I'm sticking to.  Why?  Because it's the kind of ending that (I think) best reinforces the core themes present in Mass Effect as a whole, most importantly the right to choose one's own future and the concept that people can coexist despite their differences.  I don't mind that people are more comfortable choosing a different path (or if they don't agree with playing fast and loose with the canon), since it's their story, and they have a right to enjoy and interpret it however they want.

Also,  the Catalyst is way less stupid if you think of him as a dirty Reaper trick.

@Lizardviking: I didn't know about the "vacant Rannoch" slide.  That's a bummer.  I'll keep that in mind for if/when I do my "worst playthrough ever."

That being said, we shouldn't be having a debate based on head cannon.

[AdmiralCheez]

pmac_tk421 wrote...

That being said, we shouldn't be having a debate based on head cannon.

It's "canon."  Anyway, I'm still not okay with taking away the entire galaxy's free will, so there.  Have fun with the new happy-shiny hive mind.

[pmac_tk421]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

pmac_tk421 wrote...

That being said, we shouldn't be having a debate based on head cannon.

It's "canon."  Anyway, I'm still not okay with taking away the entire galaxy's free will, so there.  Have fun with the new happy-shiny hive mind.

You said it yourself, you used your version to convince yourself more than convince others. Also, it ain't a hive mind. Also, free will has been taken from the few to improve society as whole. Refering back to my previous post, racists didn't want to integrate schools, but the government did it anyway. The fact that some of the more racist students didn't want it was discarded in favor of improving society entirely. Also, its way better than genocide, and despite what you said, its pretty clear in the EC based on dialouge and the slides that the geth die in destroy.

[Eterna]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

pmac_tk421 wrote...

That being said, we shouldn't be having a debate based on head cannon.

It's "canon."  Anyway, I'm still not okay with taking away the entire galaxy's free will, so there.  Have fun with the new happy-shiny hive mind.

Extrordinary claims require extrordinary evidence.

[AdmiralCheez]

pmac_tk421 wrote...

Also, free will has been taken from the few to improve society as whole.

HOLY HELL, DUDE.  GET THE F--NO.  NO NO NO.

Refering back to my previous post, racists didn't want to integrate schools, but the government did it anyway.

That's actually more akin to the Control ending, if anything.  Synthesis is more like kidnapping all the racists and forcing them to get brain surgery, minus the trauma because it happens instantly.  What are you more comfortable with--obeying a law, or having Uncle Sam reprogram you?

[AdmiralCheez]

Eterna5 wrote...

Extrordinary claims require extrordinary evidence.

1. Reapers stop Reaping.
2. Soldiers stop fighting.
3. WHY IS EVERYONE SUDDENLY SO HAPPY?
4. IT ALTERS YOUR BRAIN.  At least, a synthetic's brain.
5. Nobody voted on it/asked for it.

[Xilizhra]

That's actually more akin to the Control ending, if anything. Synthesis is more like kidnapping all the racists and forcing them to get brain surgery, minus the trauma because it happens instantly. What are you more comfortable with--obeying a law, or having Uncle Sam reprogram you?

I don't know. I'd have few regrets about doing either.

[AdmiralCheez]

Xilizhra wrote...

I don't know. I'd have few regrets about doing either.

YOU CAN ALSO LEAVE ALONG WITH THE OTHER GUY.

YOU PEOPLE ARE CRAZY!

*runs away to join a militant libertarian camp/the moon landing was a hoax/i'm not actually serious*

[Xilizhra]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I don't know. I'd have few regrets about doing either.

YOU CAN ALSO LEAVE ALONG WITH THE OTHER GUY.

YOU PEOPLE ARE CRAZY!

*runs away to join a militant libertarian camp/the moon landing was a hoax/i'm not actually serious*

You don't think that I'd hesitate for a second before rewriting myself, do you? And, I admit, only marginally longer before many other people. Hypothetically, I'd be quite willing to expand the solution I used on the geth heretics to many other enemies.

[AdmiralCheez]

Okay Xil, no offense but I'm starting to seriously think you're crazy.

Not denying that magically turning everyone into nice people wouldn't be hella fun on some level, but seriously. Seriously. Medication's the closest I'm ever getting to that sort of thing, and I choose to take the stuff.

[Xilizhra]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Okay Xil, no offense but I'm starting to seriously think you're crazy.

Not denying that magically turning everyone into nice people wouldn't be hella fun on some level, but seriously. Seriously. Medication's the closest I'm ever getting to that sort of thing, and I choose to take the stuff.

Crazy? Maybe. But human nature is a black hole of moral weakness, xenophobia and cruelty. What we are will never be what we can be, unless we change what we are.

[AdmiralCheez]

See, I'm more of a believer in gradual improvement over time. I subscribe to the nobility of the asymptote as my personal philosophy: the ultimate goal cannot be reached, but it's worth getting a little closer every day.

Modifié par AdmiralCheez, 20 octobre 2012 - 05:33 .

[Xilizhra]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

See, I'm more of a believer in gradual improvement over time. I subscribe to the nobility of the asymptote as my personal philosophy: the ultimate goal cannot be reached, but it's worth getting a little closer every day.

Gradual improvement is fine, and I hope for that too, but it never reaches far enough unless we can fundamentally change human nature.

[AdmiralCheez]

Depends on what you mean by "fundamentally change" and "far enough."

[Xilizhra]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Depends on what you mean by "fundamentally change" and "far enough."

What do you want to keep?

[Sajuro]

It always sucked to be geth, they don't even have sex. But the forced re-education magic didn't make it any better. Considering all of the options, destroy is still the best for the geth since they die with the false hope of Shepard not cocking it up.