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Divine Justinia V: (conspiracy theory)


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#1
KENNY4753

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There is something about Divine Justinia V that I do not trust. I believe she is the one behind the war. Here are some reasons why...
(Note: This is all just my speculation and a theory born out of the conspiracy theorist inside me)

1) She is actually a mage

This is a little crazy I know but hear me out. In the codex entry for Divine Justinia V it says
          "Within the Grand Cathedral, rivals suggest that her reticence in discussing her past means she's hiding something"
This shows that it is possible she is hiding something. What would be more of a secret than the Divine of the Chantry being a mage. Like a line we hear very often in Dragon Age says
          "Magic exists to serve man, and never to rule over him."
That right there proves that if she is a mage she needs to keep it secret, that she is hiding something. And if she is a mage, what would she like better than freedom from the circle?

2) She murdered her way to become the Divine

So before she became Divine Justinia V she was known as Revered Mother Dorothea, serving in Ferelden. The Divine at this time was Divine Beatrix III. Divine Beatrix III died in 9:34 Dragon, the same year as the Qunari attack on Kirkwall. The cause of death was called a stroke and before she died put Dorothea's name forward to become the next Divine. Sure a stroke is a possible cause of death for Beatrix but as a mage Dorothea could have actually killed her and made it look like a stroke (we've seen weirder things happen) and forced Beatrix to put her name forward to be her successsor.

That is a stretch, I know. But Dorothea was not a very important member of the Chantry when she became apointed. She was only a Revered Mother from a small village. The Grand Clerics were even skeptical when they were discussing Dorthea's suitability for the job. Nevertheless, she received the promotion and became Divine Justinia V. 

3. Leliana: Divine Justinia's left hand

We know from the Leliana's Song dlc that Dorthea saved her life. She has a history with the Divine and trusts her. This point will explain why the DIvine sends her on the quest she does.

Leliana appears during the DA2 quest "Faith". Leliana is there to acess the situation in Kirkwall and get Elthina out of Kirkwall. It is true that Justinia wanted Leliana to assess the situation but not in the way we think. Justinia was watching Kirkwall carefully but she didn't want to prevent the war but wanted to see how the events of her plan were progressing. She also did not want to rescue Elthina. She knew Elthina would stay in Kirkwall. And that is exactly what she needed for her plan to work.

4. Cassandra: Divine Justinia's Right Hand

During the events of Dawn of the Seeker Cassandra saves the Divine's life and becomes Hero of Orlais as well as Divine Justinia's right hand. This point will explain the real reason Cassandra is sent to find Hawke.

Throughout Dragon Age 2 we are watching Varric being interrogated by Cassandra, who wants to find Hawke. Cassandra believes that she is needed to find Hawke who in her mind is the one who can stop the war. The case is that the Divine is actually sending Cassandra on a wild goose chase so that she will be out of the way for the time being. You can argue that 'well why does she care about Hawke interfering if he/she are missing?' That's the point, Hawke isn't missing. The Divine could have captured Hawke and possibly the Warden, who are 2 of the only people she believes can stop her.

5. Anders

I can't forget about Anders. The man who started the choas by blowing up the Kirkwall Chantry. The thing is that wasn't his plan and wasn't even Justice's plan. It was Justinia's plan. Anders wanted mages to be free from the Chantry and that is the Divine's plan (and then some). The Divine convinced Anders to do what he did. How else could Anders come up with a spell that can do what it did. As the Divine she can get access to all the top magic research books and materials she desires. She could have gave this info to Anders somehow. The Divine knew that even as tense as the situation was between Meredith and Orsino that as long as Elthina lived a temporary comprimise would be reached, referring to Anders line in the final battle
          "I removed the chance of comprimise, because there is no comprimise."
With the Chantry destroyed it caused the inevitable, Kirkwall's mages and templars at war. The first domino in Justinia's plan has fallen and threw the choas her real plan can begin.
 
Summary

In my theory Divine Justina V is really a mage who is the mastermind behind the craziness Thedas is in at the current time. She manipulated Leliana and Cassandra to gain their trust and send them on missions that they do not know what her real reasons are for doing so. She also is the one who gave Anders the stuff he needed (other than the actual ingrediants) that Anders needed to blow up the Chantry in Act 3.

Her full plan is not yet fully known other than freeing the mages from the Chantry and the Templars.

Last Note: I know this theory has holes as do all theories butit is a work in progress.

Modifié par KENNY4753, 21 octobre 2012 - 10:24 .


#2
deuce985

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I'd much rather the Black Divine be behind everything just so I have an excuse to visit the very interesting Tevinter Imperium...

#3
Terrorize69

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She is actually the Black Divines brother.

#4
Foolsfolly

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I don't think so.

#5
KENNY4753

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Foolsfolly wrote...

I don't think so.

I do think it is highly likely that she is secretly a mage but it isn't too believable that she is behind everything

Modifié par KENNY4753, 19 octobre 2012 - 04:13 .


#6
King Cousland

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The secret she is hiding is her past with Marjolaine. She allowed herself to be seduced by her and Marjolaine stole documents from her which could start a new war between Orlais and Ferelden (though it's implied that she may have given them willingly - an act of high treason). She joined the Chantry to atone but later cooperated with Leliana to even the score with Marjolaine. She then oversaw Leliana's induction into the clergy.

You're theory about her killing Beatrix III is intriguing (it could just as easily have been a hard to detect poison), but I doubt that it's accurate.

I think it's more likely that Justinia is sincere in her liberality and desire for reform, but in seeking to start a slow, top-down reform, she has had a hand in triggering a Theodosian revolution which I can easily see claiming her life.

#7
MichaelStuart

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What ever she is, I wont trust her.
She seem like the sort of woman who will make sacrifices for the greater good.
And I'm rarely included in the greater good.

#8
Foolsfolly

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MichaelStuart wrote...

What ever she is, I wont trust her.
She seem like the sort of woman who will make sacrifices for the greater good.
And I'm rarely included in the greater good.


I actually can't wait to work for her. She's a pragmatist, or so I've gathered from DA2 codex entries, Leliana's Song, and... well she's not really in Dawn of the Seeker is she? She's there as a sounding board and then assassination target.

#9
unbentbuzzkill

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I don't know which is worse, A. she could be behind everything (the mastermind), or B. She's a weak minded woman that allowed herself to be seduced and had sensitive documents stolen from her that could've started another war.

#10
JWvonGoethe

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This was really interesting, and plausible. I especially liked number 4, and how it would explain the disappearances of the Warden and Hawke if correct. Leliana would obviously view the capture of the Warden as a personal betrayal, possibly causing her to attack Justinia, leaving the position of the Divine free for someone else to take. Or maybe Justinia can convince the protagonist she had good reasons to act as she did, a la Loghain.

Origins ended with the decision of who to place on the Fereldan throne. Perhaps in Inquisition we can decide who should serve as the Divine - Leliana, Justinia or a third option? Obviously there is a whole set of procedures in place for choosing the next Divine, but I'm sure the writers can get around that. Thanks for the thread, much better thought out and more interesting than most plot theories I've seen.

#11
KENNY4753

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JWvonGoethe wrote...

This was really interesting, and plausible. I especially liked number 4, and how it would explain the disappearances of the Warden and Hawke if correct. Leliana would obviously view the capture of the Warden as a personal betrayal, possibly causing her to attack Justinia, leaving the position of the Divine free for someone else to take. Or maybe Justinia can convince the protagonist she had good reasons to act as she did, a la Loghain.

Origins ended with the decision of who to place on the Fereldan throne. Perhaps in Inquisition we can decide who should serve as the Divine - Leliana, Justinia or a third option? Obviously there is a whole set of procedures in place for choosing the next Divine, but I'm sure the writers can get around that. Thanks for the thread, much better thought out and more interesting than most plot theories I've seen.

Yeah Leliana would see that as a betrayal, which could be another reason why she is sent with Cassandra to find Hawke. Get her out of the way for the time being.

It would be intersting to have a choice like we did for ruler in DA:O but for the Divine in DA3. The writers could easily find a way to make it work

#12
LobselVith8

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MichaelStuart wrote...

What ever she is, I wont trust her.
She seem like the sort of woman who will make sacrifices for the greater good.
And I'm rarely included in the greater good.


I hope the protagonist isn't railroaded in siding with Divine Justina V. I dislike the character.

#13
Eumerin

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unbentbuzzkill wrote...

B. She's a weak minded woman that allowed herself to be seduced and had sensitive documents stolen from her that could've started another war.


If the original issue was fixed, and she's learned from her mistake, what's the issue?  If she was a weak-minded woman, she's definitely no longer that way now as weak-minded individuals don't rise to the rank of Divine.

#14
Wittand25

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I like as little as I know about her from the games and Asunder.

She seems to be quite pragmatic and working to clean up the mess her senile predecessor left.
Though she definitely is not trustworthy, and seems quite willing to walk over corpses if the need arises.

#15
Foolsfolly

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Eumerin wrote...

unbentbuzzkill wrote...

B. She's a weak minded woman that allowed herself to be seduced and had sensitive documents stolen from her that could've started another war.


If the original issue was fixed, and she's learned from her mistake, what's the issue?  If she was a weak-minded woman, she's definitely no longer that way now as weak-minded individuals don't rise to the rank of Divine.


I was just going to let that comment go. I don't understand it either. "I dislike that this character made a mistake in their past and learned from it!"

It's weird, right?

#16
King Cousland

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LobselVith8 wrote...

MichaelStuart wrote...

What ever she is, I wont trust her.
She seem like the sort of woman who will make sacrifices for the greater good.
And I'm rarely included in the greater good.


I hope the protagonist isn't railroaded in siding with Divine Justina V. I dislike the character.


I think it's more likely that she'll be offed pretty early in the game along with most of the Grand Clerics (if a small mage underground in Kirkwall was enough for Justinia to call the city's GC back to Val Royeaux, I don't why she wouldn't call back the other clerical higher-ups) and the Grand Cathedral itself, leaving the Chantry pretty much dead in the water and paving the way for the foundation of the Inquisition. 

#17
Foolsfolly

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King Cousland wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

MichaelStuart wrote...

What ever she is, I wont trust her.
She seem like the sort of woman who will make sacrifices for the greater good.
And I'm rarely included in the greater good.


I hope the protagonist isn't railroaded in siding with Divine Justina V. I dislike the character.


I think it's more likely that she'll be offed pretty early in the game along with most of the Grand Clerics (if a small mage underground in Kirkwall was enough for Justinia to call the city's GC back to Val Royeaux, I don't why she wouldn't call back the other clerical higher-ups) and the Grand Cathedral itself, leaving the Chantry pretty much dead in the water and paving the way for the foundation of the Inquisition. 


I'm willing to bet she's a moral neutral party between all these warring factions and just wants to get at the person/force behind these wars. She doesn't care how we get the job done just that we get it done.

I'm not saying she shouldn't have a stake or an opinion on how things get done. I just don't see her being a side you side with. The Templars aren't the Chantry anymore.

#18
unbentbuzzkill

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@eumerin

this issue is two fold 1. that it happened in the first place, And 2 if it were ever discovered it would have serious and possibly deadly consequences.

#19
Massakkolia

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It's a good theory and I wouldn't be too surprised if at least some of it ends up being true. I doubt she's a mage, though. It would make sense but I also feel it would be an underwhelming plot twist.

The story sort of requires at least one actor who is ready to support mage rights but isn't actually a mage herself, someone flexible who's skillfully orchestrating a balancing act between different factions. Justinia and her supporters fill that role.

Whatever she is, I'm sure she's a player. She might have some genuine good intentions but she hungers for power. Her rise from obscurity to the top is an obvious evidence of that. Whether she's ready to use her power for self-interest or common good is another matter.

When she shed tears (in Asunder) to mourn for those who died in that whole tranquil experiment debacle, it seemed extremely insincere and calculative. Perhaps I read the scene wrong but I don't trust her.

In any case, She fascinates me and I hope she'll have a significant role in DA3. I don't think she's a mastermind behind the chaos (in my opinion, there isn't one mastermind) but she's certainly one of the actors adding to it.

Modifié par Ria, 19 octobre 2012 - 06:52 .


#20
legbamel

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You've left out one important consideration: Flemeth. Her continued interference needs to be addressed in a comprehensive conspiracy theory.

Are they working together or at cross purposes? Do they want the ame thing for different reasons or are they pulling strings, each in their own ways, to undermine one another?

#21
KENNY4753

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legbamel wrote...

You've left out one important consideration: Flemeth. Her continued interference needs to be addressed in a comprehensive conspiracy theory.

Are they working together or at cross purposes? Do they want the ame thing for different reasons or are they pulling strings, each in their own ways, to undermine one another?

How could I have fgorgot about Flemeth? It is likely she could be working with Justinia

#22
The Hierophant

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legbamel wrote...

You've left out one important consideration: Flemeth. Her continued interference needs to be addressed in a comprehensive conspiracy theory.

Are they working together or at cross purposes? Do they want the ame thing for different reasons or are they pulling strings, each in their own ways, to undermine one another?

Posted Image

What if Justinia V is Flemeth's oldest living daughter, and that they orchestrated all the events that led up to the Mage Templar war!?

Modifié par The Hierophant, 19 octobre 2012 - 08:36 .


#23
deuce985

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The Hierophant wrote...

legbamel wrote...

You've left out one important consideration: Flemeth. Her continued interference needs to be addressed in a comprehensive conspiracy theory.

Are they working together or at cross purposes? Do they want the ame thing for different reasons or are they pulling strings, each in their own ways, to undermine one another?

Posted Image

What if Justinia V is Flemeth's oldest living daughter, and that they orchestrated all the evnts that led up to the Mage Templar war!?


Time for Keanu Reeves meme...

Posted Image

#24
King Cousland

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deuce985 wrote...

Time for Keanu Reeves meme...

Posted Image


Posted Image

#25
Eumerin

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unbentbuzzkill wrote...

@eumerin

this issue is two fold 1. that it happened in the first place, And 2 if it were ever discovered it would have serious and possibly deadly consequences.


Because no one who's competent ever makes serious mistakes that have potentially catastrophic consequences?

There are innumerable examples of such events throughout our own history.  The thing is, though, mistakes are what smart people learn from to become better people.  People who've been burned tend to be a lot more careful around fire than those have haven't been.

As for point #2, it's entirely possible that it was discovered, but was quietly hushed up for one reason or another.  But more importantly, at this point she's the Divine.  You can't accuse the Divine without proof much more solid than hearsay regarding an incident from a decade (or more) prior.  And if there was proof more solid than hearsay, then it would have come out by now.

At this point it's an interesting tidbit of information regarding her past, and might help to explain a characteristic or two of her personality.  But it would take almost supernatural intervention to bring it back in a way that would pose a threat to her.