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[The Elder King]

LobselVith8 wrote...

MichaelStuart wrote...

What ever she is, I wont trust her.
She seem like the sort of woman who will make sacrifices for the greater good.
And I'm rarely included in the greater good.

I hope the protagonist isn't railroaded in siding with Divine Justina V. I dislike the character.

I hope so, but it's not because I dislike Justinia, since I only things I know about her is the info in the wiki, which isn't enough to judge a character. It's because I'd prefer if the PC have a neutral stance in regards of mages, templars and the Chantry, and that we'll have to deside which side to join (three different paths would be great).
That's why I really want to have info about the Inquisition and its role in the game. I'd prefer the organization to be neutral about the mage-templar war and indipendent from the Chantry.

Modifié par hhh89, 19 octobre 2012 - 08:50 .

[septembervirgin]

KENNY4753 wrote...
That right there proves that if she is a mage she needs to keep it secret, that she is hiding something. And if she is a mage, what would she like better than freedom from the circle?

She'd have to be the most powerful blood mage in Thedas from a very young age.  She'd have to learn to refine her power sufficiently so that the Templars never discovered her, not even when she worked directly with the most sensitive and discerning Templars.

That is a stretch, I know. But Dorothea was not a very important member of the Chantry when she became apointed. She was only a Revered Mother from a small village. The Grand Clerics were even skeptical when they were discussing Dorthea's suitability for the job. Nevertheless, she received the promotion and became Divine Justinia V. 

Dorothea's name was on the lips of the previous Divine as the successor to the role of the Divine, but I suspect that a lady of Dorothea's standing would be elsewhere when Dorothea was dying.  Again, unless Dorothea is a blood mage beyond the capability of Pharamond and other great mages, she was out of range and not a suspect.

Imagine you are in a LARP.  The player for Dorothea is claiming, "My character used an indetectable poison to kill Beatrix III and forces her to claim me as the successor even though it's unlikely I could use magic to force her hand from that range."  This is an event that would not be seen as acceptible by the Game Masters of that LARP.  Are you claiming you'd accept that?

What's more likely is that Dorothea and Beatrix were lovers.  But love would not force the mouth of a Divine (although it might ply that self-same mouth in other ways).  It is the discernment of one who named the Age, the Dragon Age, who also named Dorothea a new Divine.

And the discernment of Dorothea, who is now Justinia V, is such that the Templars are a loose cannon, the Seekers are also without guide, and the Mages are freed.  This might be her best attempt at keeping peace, but I doubt she'd murder to obtain this peace.

We cannot look at people who are in a tight corner, who are fighting desperately to survive, and somehow claim they have sufficient power and wherewithal to command an effective conspiracy.  The Divine was in a position of weakness yet somehow managed to avoid a war that would have weakened Orlais and eventually brought the world under two factions: Tevinter and Qunari.

The Divine could not succeed in keeping the Chantry as One and cannot have a single objective to crush nor any possibility of reuniting the Chantry.  There could be a March, we all know this, yet whither shall this March go?  Tevinter, the potential source of problems?  The war-wise Templars and Seekers, who already seek the deaths of all mages?  A wardrobe?  I hear it's cramped in there, but I also hear abominations and blood mages never check the wardrobes for hiding victims.

One might assume that many Circles will make their way to Tevinter.  This could not assist the Divine in Orlais.  One might assume that the Templars will consider their greatest threat to be Tevinter, and also that they will hold that the threat to all mankind is Tevinter, but their first desire is to eliminate the mages from all Chantry lands.  The Divine might not be able to save anyone.

I understand that the Divine might be in service of Tevinter, but only if her hand is governed by whispering spirits, because she has caused Tevinter a more direct problem: the potential attack by all the Templars and Seekers in Thedas.  If self-same groups can ally with the Qunari and split Tevinter in half, the Qunari taking one half, the Templars taking the other half, there might be victory over "evil magic" once and for all.  Another option would be making concession to the Chantry in exchange for a March against Tevinter, so that the Templar, Chantry, and Seekers act as a triune leadership over the Andrastrians.

There is really no good and compelling reason to believe that the Divine Justinia the Number is any puppet.  There is more reason to believe that the Divine Justinia is screwed.

Modifié par septembervirgin, 19 octobre 2012 - 10:18 .

[iSignIn]

What you listed are pretty standard things to do for a leader of an organized religion.

[KENNY4753]

 

septembervirgin wrote...

KENNY4753 wrote...
That right there proves that if she is a mage she needs to keep it secret, that she is hiding something. And if she is a mage, what would she like better than freedom from the circle?

She'd have to be the most powerful blood mage in Thedas from a very young age.  She'd have to learn to refine her power sufficiently so that the Templars never discovered her, not even when she worked directly with the most sensitive and discerning Templars.

Perhaps like somebody stated in this thread, she is really a daughter of Flemeth's. She sould have learned a great deal that way. It would also make sense if she had a magic parent(s) who could teach her to keep her powers hidden like Malcom did with mage Hawke and Bethany. She then could have started studying blood magic on her own.

KENNY4753 wrote...
That is a stretch, I know. But Dorothea was not a very important member of the Chantry when she became apointed. She was only a Revered Mother from a small village. The Grand Clerics were even skeptical when they were discussing Dorthea's suitability for the job. Nevertheless, she received the promotion and became Divine Justinia V. 

Dorothea's name was on the lips of the previous Divine as the successor to the role of the Divine, but I suspect that a lady of Dorothea's standing would be elsewhere when Beatrix was dying.  Again, unless Dorothea is a blood mage beyond the capability of Pharamond and other great mages, she was out of range and not a suspect.

Imagine you are in a LARP.  The player for Dorothea is claiming, "My character used an indetectable poison to kill Beatrix III and forces her to claim me as the successor even though it's unlikely I could use magic to force her hand from that range."  This is an event that would not be seen as acceptible by the Game Masters of that LARP.  Are you claiming you'd accept that?

First, we don't know where Dorothea was when Beatrix died. She could have been in Orlais or she could have been in her small village chantry. It is also possible she sent somebody to kill Beatrix like Loghain sent Jowan to kill Eamon.
Second, I never seen that Beatrix spoke that she wanted Dorothea to take her place. She could have written in in a sort of will.
Third, this has nothing to do with a LARP. As I stated above she could have sent somebody to do it if she was in Fereldan or she could have been in Orlais when Beatrix died. We don't know where she was. Would I accept that she sent somebody there to do it, yes. Would I accept that she was actually there to do it herself, yes.

And the discernment of Dorothea, who is now Justinia V, is such that the Templars are a loose cannon, the Seekers are also without guide, and the Mages are freed.  This might be her best attempt at keeping peace, but I doubt she'd murder to obtain this peace.

We cannot look at people who are in a tight corner, who are fighting desperately to survive, and somehow claim they have sufficient power and wherewithal to command an effective conspiracy.  The Divine was in a position of weakness yet somehow managed to avoid a war that would have weakened Orlais and eventually brought the world under two factions: Tevinter and Qunari.

The Divine could not succeed in keeping the Chantry as One and cannot have a single objective to crush nor any possibility of reuniting the Chantry.  There could be a March, we all know this, yet whither shall this March go?  Tevinter, the potential source of problems?  The war-wise Templars and Seekers, who already seek the deaths of all mages?  A wardrobe?  I hear it's cramped in there, but I also hear abominations and blood mages never check the wardrobes for hiding victims.

One might assume that many Circles will make their way to Tevinter.  This could not assist the Divine in Orlais.  One might assume that the Templars will consider their greatest threat to be Tevinter, and also that they will hold that the threat to all mankind is Tevinter, but their first desire is to eliminate the mages from all Chantry lands.  The Divine might not be able to save anyone.

I understand that the Divine might be in service of Tevinter, but only if her hand is governed by whispering spirits, because she has caused Tevinter a more direct problem: the potential attack by all the Templars and Seekers in Thedas.  If self-same groups can ally with the Qunari and split Tevinter in half, the Qunari taking one half, the Templars taking the other half, there might be victory over "evil magic" once and for all.  Another option would be making concession to the Chantry in exchange for a March against Tevinter, so that the Templar, Chantry, and Seekers act as a triune leadership over the Andrastrians.

There is really no good and compelling reason to believe that the Divine Justinia the Number is any puppet.  There is more reason to believe that the Divine Justinia is screwed.

About the rest of your post, like I stated in the OP her full plan is not yet known (if she was behind it all). She could want things to be going exactly the way they are. The whole point of this theory is that she could be the big bad of DA3 and she could be the one behind the war if she is a mage.

Modifié par KENNY4753, 20 octobre 2012 - 01:25 .

[Vicious]

I'm guessing you didn't read Asunder. She's a friend to Mages, sure, but she couldn't stop the Seekers from breaking off from the Chantry and joining the Templars.

The thing is that wasn't his plan and wasn't even Justice's plan. It was Justinia's plan.

No, it was all Justice who planned the whole thing. 

She could have gave this info to Anders somehow.

Theory sounds nice but you're making it up.

Modifié par Vicious, 20 octobre 2012 - 02:27 .

[KENNY4753]

Vicious wrote...

I'm guessing you didn't read Asunder. She's a friend to Mages, sure, but she couldn't stop the Seekers from breaking off from the Chantry and joining the Templars.

The thing is that wasn't his plan and wasn't even Justice's plan. It was Justinia's plan.

She could have gave this info to Anders somehow.

Theory sounds nice but you're making it up.

That's why I said in the OP that this is all just speculation born out of the conspiracy theorist inside my mind. I was just giving some possible ways that it could be tied in that she is behind it all.

I read Asunder through internet sites and summaries of the book. I haven't had a chance to get the book yet though

[septembervirgin]

KENNY4753 wrote...
Perhaps like somebody stated in this thread, she is really a daughter of Flemeth's. She sould have learned a great deal that way. It would also make sense if she had a magic parent(s) who could teach her to keep her powers hidden like Malcom did with mage Hawke and Bethany. She then could have started studying blood magic on her own.

Dear me.  So she's a shapechanging blood mage who could easily have fluttered around as a bat (an Orlesian bat) right outside the window while Beatrix was dying.  She smashed herself against the windowframe and used the dripping blood from her face to control Beatrix's mind!  I see it now?  Maybe?  Yes, no?  No.  As fun as it might seem to have Dorothea Mistress of the Dark, I'm bloody certain she's not that sort of lady.  (Yes, Dorothea, I typed what you wanted me to.  I obey the Illuminati.)

KENNY4753 wrote...
First, we don't know where Dorothea was when Beatrix died. She could have been in Orlais or she could have been in her small village chantry. It is also possible she sent somebody to kill Beatrix like Loghain sent Jowan to kill Eamon.

"When Beatrix III was felled by a massive stroke, she survived just long enough to put forth Dorothea's name as a candidate for her replacement."

Put forth, as in put forth in writing or put forth in utterance. It's my opinion that she spoke these words, as writing is more complex an action than speaking and she was dying from a brain issue. But if she did write the words, it doesn't invalidate the potential that she wrote those words. Justinia is not a weakling. Furthermore, I'm not sure I'm aware of a blood magic that could simultaneously control all the voting priests of the Chantry.

Now, I forgot to approach it from the angle of what the authors of Dragon Age would do. I've never seen them approach a political issue with such a bombastic and bold decision, to govern the fate of the Andrastean Chantry with a shape-changing blood mage. I do respect the sort of creativity it takes to erase a question mark using a Flemeth and a sponge filled with blood. We might assume a choir of demons descended on the Chantry and governed their voting, their disputes embodying the last crumbs of their mortal will. Please forgive me, I cannot agree that Flemeth wants the Chantry in her purse. The medieval cell phone is so bulky, there's little room for a chantry in her purse.

Flemeth's purse is quite pretty. Lavender flowers, hamsters and rangers rejoicing, a Dalish scrivener with eyepatch doing a spider-dance... quite the sight. I wonder if it's on Ebay now.

[KENNY4753]

septembervirgin wrote...
Dear me.  So she's a shapechanging blood mage who could easily have fluttered around as a bat (an Orlesian bat) right outside the window while Beatrix was dying.  She smashed herself against the windowframe and used the dripping blood from her face to control Beatrix's mind!  I see it now?  Maybe?  Yes, no?  No.  As fun as it might seem to have Dorothea Mistress of the Dark, I'm bloody certain she's not that sort of lady.  (Yes, Dorothea, I typed what you wanted me to.  I obey the Illuminati.)

Morrigan can shapeshift so why would it be unbelieveable that other mages can. So can the Warden Mage. Although I never said anything about shapeshifting, you brought that up, it would not be inlikely that Dorothea could, if she is a mage.

And mages can also control minds. Look at Idunna in DA2. She was able to control Hawke's mind (until somebody intervened, or mage Hawke) plus Hawke had full strength when Idunna was controlling him. Beatrix would have been very weak at the time making it easier. Again just like shapeshifting this would not be unbelieveable.

Plus I didn't bring up shapeshifting or mind control, you did. I said Dorothea could have forced Beatrix to put her name forward, that doesn't mean through mind control and I also said that she could have been in Orlais, that doesn't mean she shapeshifted.

I never said you had to type Dorothea. You can type Justinia if you please. It makes no difference to me.

"When Beatrix III was felled by a massive stroke, she survived just long enough to put forth Dorothea's name as a candidate for her replacement."

Put forth, as in put forth in writing or put forth in utterance. It's my opinion that she spoke these words, as writing is more complex an action than speaking and she was dying from a brain issue. But if she did write the words, it doesn't invalidate the potential that she wrote those words. Justinia is not a weakling. Furthermore, I'm not sure I'm aware of a blood magic that could simultaneously control all the voting priests of the Chantry.

Yeah the phrase "put forth" could mean spoke or written. It is open to opinion but either way she did it she could have been forced to. Whether it be through mind control like you stated or through another means, it could have still happened.

And I never mentioned anywhere that she forced the other Voting Clerics. The clerics were skeptical of making Dorothea the new Divine but they still could have went with tradition and used the previous Divine's word on who her successor should be.

Now, I forgot to approach it from the angle of what the authors of Dragon Age would do. I've never seen them approach a political issue with such a bombastic and bold decision, to govern the fate of the Andrastean Chantry with a shape-changing blood mage. I do respect the sort of creativity it takes to erase a question mark using a Flemeth and a sponge filled with blood. We might assume a choir of demons descended on the Chantry and governed their voting, their disputes embodying the last crumbs of their mortal will. Please forgive me, I cannot agree that Flemeth wants the Chantry in her purse. The medieval cell phone is so bulky, there's little room for a chantry in her purse.

Flemeth's purse is quite pretty. Lavender flowers, hamsters and rangers rejoicing, a Dalish scrivener with eyepatch doing a spider-dance... quite the sight. I wonder if it's on Ebay now.

Once again I have never stated any of this as fact. In the OP I said this is just my speculation. Whether you believe it or not that is your opinion and I really don't care.

Once again I never said she was a shapechanging mage. You assumed that. 

[septembervirgin]

Well, perhaps Justinia is not a shape-shifting blood mage.  It is likely she is not one of Flemeth's children.  And it is likely she did not control Beatrix with blood magic. There are other means, right (but Idunna was a blood mage and blood magic is the only magical mind control). The Divine is the most powerful person in all of Andrastean Thedas, more powerful than the leader of all the Crows, more powerful than any monarch. Unless the leaders of Andrastean Thedas tired of her rule, they would not assemble to thwart her power -- and I would hazard to say that they're still the faithful and were faithful even unto the time of Beatrix III. They would not have been responsible for the death of Beatrix III.

Now, what we might worry about is if the spirits that work with Tevinter are strong enough to toy with the Andrastean rulers and clerics. That's something to be concerned about.

Modifié par septembervirgin, 21 octobre 2012 - 10:10 .

[KENNY4753]

septembervirgin wrote...

Well, perhaps Justinia is not a shape-shifting blood mage.  It is likely she is not one of Flemeth's children.  And it is likely she did not control Beatrix with blood magic. There are other means, right (but Idunna was a blood mage and blood magic is the only magical mind control).

Like I have stated, you were the one who brought up shapeshifting aqnd mind control. I didn't even think about those 2 ideas until you posted them. And I know it isn't likely that it happened but it would still be possible. Anything is possible in the Dragon Age universe. 

The Divine is the most powerful person in all of Andrastean Thedas, more powerful than the leader of all the Crows, more powerful than any monarch. Unless the leaders of Andrastean Thedas tired of her rule, they would not assemble to thwart her power -- and I would hazard to say that they're still the faithful and were faithful even unto the time of Beatrix III. They would not have been responsible for the death of Beatrix III.

This idea had nothing to do with how much power the Divine held. The Divine is the leader of the Chantry, obviously she would be powerful, whoever the current Divine would be. And I never said the Andratean leaders grew tired of Beatrix. I have not stated that all the Grand Cleric conspired to take down Beatrix. The only one that I said could have been responsible for Beatrix's death was Dorothea/Justinia.

Now, what we might worry about is if the spirits that work with Tevinter are strong enough to toy with the Andrastean rulers and clerics. That's something to be concerned about.

This has nothing to do with the conspiracy. Unless perhaps Justinia was just a simple mage but became possessed by a Tevinter spirit.

Like I have said, this is all just speculation and not likely to be true but anything is possible.

[septembervirgin]

KENNY4753 wrote...
Like I have stated, you were the one who brought up shapeshifting aqnd mind control. I didn't even think about those 2 ideas until you posted them. And I know it isn't likely that it happened but it would still be possible. Anything is possible in the Dragon Age universe.

You disagree that Dorothea is a blood mage and that she is not a shape-shifting child of Flemeth then?

One wonders how Dorothea managed to threaten, coerce, or in any way harm a Divine, a sacred ruler over many powerful lands.  Dorothea is one person.  The Divine cannot be poorly protected.  I don't think any individual being in Thedas outside an Arch-Demon could target the Divine and be victorious.  I'm not even sure an Arch-Demon could manage the feat without an army of darkspawn.

This idea had nothing to do with how much power the Divine held. The Divine is the leader of the Chantry, obviously she would be powerful, whoever the current Divine would be. And I never said the Andratean leaders grew tired of Beatrix. I have not stated that all the Grand Cleric conspired to take down Beatrix. The only one that I said could have been responsible for Beatrix's death was Dorothea/Justinia.

An idea you want to play with, yes, but it doesn't sound likely to me, is all.  And I find the idea almost ghastly in its fanfic qualities.  I can imagine an entire fancy about the Divine being taken down by Dorothea.  I don't even quite understand why Flemeth would want the Chantry destroyed, although Flemeth seemed to view Templars as playthings.  If Flemeth isn't threatened at all by the Templars, why would she be bothered by the Chantry?

This has nothing to do with the conspiracy. Unless perhaps Justinia was just a simple mage but became possessed by a Tevinter spirit.

I doubt she's a mage.  Again if she's NOT the most powerful blood mage Thedas has ever seen, the Templars would've discovered her.  And there is no mind control magic outside blood magic, none at all.

Like I have said, this is all just speculation and not likely to be true but anything is possible.

Flemeth is the Stone.  The Maker is a rainbow pony.

[KENNY4753]

septembervirgin wrote...
You disagree that Dorothea is a blood mage and that she is not a shape-shifting child of Flemeth then?

I never said that. When I first made the OP, I said I believe she is a mage. I never ruled out blood magic. That is quite possible. Mind Control using blood magic I however did not think of when I made the OP but now I won't rule it out since we did see a blood mage do that before.

I have never thought about shapeshifting until you brought it up. After you brought it up however I said that I would not rule it out as a possibility since we have seen mages shapeshift before just like I did not think of her being a daughter of Flemeth until somebody else in this thread brought it up. Once again I will not rule it out because we know for a fact Flemeth has multiple daughters (Morrigan and Yavana). 

Point is I did not think of those 3 points at first until they were brought up. Now that they have been brought up it could be possible.

One wonders how Dorothea managed to threaten, coerce, or in any way harm a Divine, a sacred ruler over many powerful lands.  Dorothea is one person.  The Divine cannot be poorly protected.  I don't think any individual being in Thedas outside an Arch-Demon could target the Divine and be victorious.  I'm not even sure an Arch-Demon could manage the feat without an army of darkspawn.

True the Divine would not be poorly protected but the fact is that Dorothea was a Revered Mother. She was not just some random woman making it possible that security would not be as tight with her compared to a random person. Plus like you stated before, perhaps Beatrix and Dorothea were lovers. We do not know.

As I have stated many times, anything is possible and this is all just wild speculation. It is not proven fact.

An idea you want to play with, yes, but it doesn't sound likely to me, is all.  And I find the idea almost ghastly in its fanfic qualities.  I can imagine an entire fancy about the Divine being taken down by Dorothea.  I don't even quite understand why Flemeth would want the Chantry destroyed, although Flemeth seemed to view Templars as playthings.  If Flemeth isn't threatened at all by the Templars, why would she be bothered by the Chantry?

Yes, you can call this a fanfic. I have never stated it as fact. Just like I never stated it was a fact Flemeth was involved. I actually believe it is quite possible Flemeth is going to turn out to be good in the end and not a major evil.

I doubt she's a mage.  Again if she's NOT the most powerful blood mage Thedas has ever seen, the Templars would've discovered her.  And there is no mind control magic outside blood magic, none at all.

It is not unbelievable that the Tempalrs never discovered her. They never discovered Hawke until Meredith saw him/her fighting Qunari during the invasion. The Templars never discovered Merrill was a blood mage. The point is that the Templars cannot spot out every mage in the world. Maybe Dorothea had a mage parent like Malcom, who could teach her to hide her powers.

I never said there wasn't any magic for mind control besides blood magic, just like in the OP I never said Dorothea used mind control on Beatrix. After you brought it up, sure it could be possible she did. I said forced her to put her name forward as the next Divine. forced doesn't mean she had to use mind control.

[Josielyn]

I agree that the fact that she made mistakes in the past makes her more likely to have learned from them and avoid repeating them. So, what would be Justinia's motive for such a conspiracy?

[KENNY4753]

Josielyn wrote...

I agree that the fact that she made mistakes in the past makes her more likely to have learned from them and avoid repeating them. So, what would be Justinia's motive for such a conspiracy?

Well it could be any number of reasons. She could wish to have mages be free (if she really is a mage) or she could even just be a psychpath.

All I meant by the OP is I wouldn't doubt BW to throw a twist in there where she is actually the evil force behind everything. Even if she isn't it would still be interesting if she really was a mage.

[Heimdall]

That Justinia might secretly be a mage? That actually sounds possible.

Everything else? Extremely unlikely.

[KENNY4753]

Lord Aesir wrote...

That Justinia might secretly be a mage? That actually sounds possible.

Everything else? Extremely unlikely.

My main point of this was that I think she is secretly a mage, the rest was just fun speculation

[Rinshikai10]

Speculation is always fun, I think Justinia had good intentions in Asunder, but she is too Idealistic to really get anything done.

It boles down to trust and I don't think she has any outside a very small group of people. Leliana and Cassandra being the most obvious examples.

[WhiteJoker]

KENNY4753 wrote...
5. Anders

I can't
forget about Anders. The man who started the choas by blowing up the
Kirkwall Chantry. The thing is that wasn't his plan and wasn't even
Justice's plan. It was Justinia's plan. Anders wanted mages to be free
from the Chantry and that is the Divine's plan (and then some). The
Divine convinced Anders to do what he did. How else could Anders come up
with a spell that can do what it did. As the Divine she can get access
to all the top magic research books and materials she desires. She could
have gave this info to Anders somehow. The Divine knew that even as
tense as the situation was between Meredith and Orsino that as long as
Elthina lived a temporary comprimise would be reached, referring to
Anders line in the final battle
          "I removed the chance of comprimise, because there is no comprimise."
With
the Chantry destroyed it caused the inevitable, Kirkwall's mages and
templars at war. The first domino in Justinia's plan has fallen and
threw the choas her real plan can begin.
 

Point of fact, Anders didn't come up with a spell.  The ingredients he lists that he needs are sela petre and drakestone.  Sela petre is another way of saying saltpeter which is one of the three primary components of black powder, aka gunpowder, aka stuff that goes boom and yes, it develops in the same way Anders states.  Drakestone is sulfur, another component of black powder.  The third is simply charcoal which should be in abundent supply.  The implication is Anders didn't make a spell, he made a bomb in the real world style.  This isn't too fantastical sounding when you take into account he used to be a Warden in Vigil's Keep when Dworkin was brewing up his bombs and that Anders was living in a city partially occupied with Qunari for the last few years.  How he managed to steal the secret of gunpowder from them though is questionable.

Modifié par WhiteJoker, 08 novembre 2012 - 08:48 .