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[upsettingshorts]

Alexandrine Delassixe wrote...

jillabender wrote...

writers aren't likely to allow the PC to go on a crusade against all religion, 

Did anyone even ask for that? o.o

Yes.  

"I want to destroy the Chantry," ring a bell?

Thedas is simply not prepared - culturally, philosophically, or politically - for the kind of secular humanist wish fulfillment a certain subsection of fans want to live out in a game.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 21 octobre 2012 - 08:55 .

[LobselVith8]

Alexandrine Delassixe wrote...

jillabender wrote...

writers aren't likely to allow the PC to go on a crusade against all religion, 

Did anyone even ask for that? o.o

No one in the thread asked to go to war with all religion. Some people condemned the Chantry over what happened to the elves and the mages.

[99DP1982]

Well... I have decided that it will be a first Bioware RPG which I will not buy... not until I will hear nothing but praises among RPG fans.

I will have my games that will occupy my time (Currently XCOM: EU (Firaxis) and DotA 2 (Valve), later enhanced BG (Overhaul Games), Wasteland 2 (Brian Fargo - InXile), and eventually "Project Eternity" (Obsidian), also The Witcher 3 and Cyberpunk 2077 will appear somewhere in 2013 and 2014 (both CD Projekt RED))

I do not want BIoware to fail, on the contrary, I would love to see them back at the top with all the memorable RPG experiencess they were once providing...

After ME2, DA2 and ME3 I feel like someone decided to milk the IPs and Bioware trademark until they will fully depreciate in the books... Then it will be assimilated or cut lose...

DA3 is following ME3 route - there will be another co-op battle arena for MP, because all EA games now have to have MP client... Take a look at the great IP that was butchered that way - Syndicate (IP created by non-existent Bullfrog - which was acquired by EA)

So we have:

Forced MP (screams action oriented gameplay)
Auto-dialog (not much of RPG experience)
Dialog Wheel (unfortunately the most recent experiences I have a bad feeling about it)

There are some other points which were mentioned by

Cultist wrote...

Paraphrases - ☑
Voiced protagonist - ☑
EAWare's approach to "choices that matter" - ☑
"We will not abandon what we achieved with Dragon Age 2" - ☑
Action over RPG approach - ☑
"The amount of autoialogues will not change from what e had in DA2" - ☑
"Dialogue wheel will stay" - ☑
So yeah, for me it is already the lowest point.

[LobselVith8]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

"I want to destroy the Chantry," ring a bell?

Some people felt that way about that specific institution because of what the Chantry did to the mages for nearly a millennia, and because of what they did to the Dales and the elves. Finding the Chantry to be a monstrous institution doesn't mean people hate all religion, nor does it mean that people seek to destroy all the religions of Thedas. Some people think it would be better to have the same level of freedom that Origins and Awakening provided with it's atheist options, rather than restrict the protagonist into being religiously Andrastian.

[The Six Path of Pain]

Vicious wrote...

People need to stop projecting their beliefs onto their characters. Does the Maker exist? No probably not. Would Hawke or the Warden believe in the Maker? Or an Elven Warden in Dalish gods? Or a Dwarf Warden in the stone and their ancestors? In a world with magic and all kinds of things that can't be explained?

They have no reason NOT to believe.

People just want the option so they can replay the game as a different character with a different view of the world...I wouldn't call myself atheist but I don't believe in any type of deity,yet I still played as a devout Andrastian a few times and I still had fun playing the game...Beside what right do you have telling people how to play their games and characters

[Vicious]

Beside what right do you have telling people how to play their games and characters

No right at all, but it won't stop me from pointing out how silly a certain character viewpoint is in game terms, to help folks understand why Bioware is opting against it.

[Palipride47]

The Six Path of Pain wrote...

Vicious wrote...

People need to stop projecting their beliefs onto their characters. Does the Maker exist? No probably not. Would Hawke or the Warden believe in the Maker? Or an Elven Warden in Dalish gods? Or a Dwarf Warden in the stone and their ancestors? In a world with magic and all kinds of things that can't be explained?

They have no reason NOT to believe.

People just want the option so they can replay the game as a different character with a different view of the world...I wouldn't call myself atheist but I don't believe in any type of deity,yet I still played as a devout Andrastian a few times and I still had fun playing the game...Beside what right do you have telling people how to play their games and characters

This.

I play a human mage and a city elf that hate the Chantry and don't believe in the Maker (well, the elf doesn't), an unsure/ ambivelent Human Noble, and an elven mage that leans pro-Chantry. 

For Hawke, that felt like "less" of an option.

I couldn't say the Qun was awesome, the closest I could say was "I don't like how Kirkwall functions either." I do apparently believe in the Maker, and I can agree that I like the Circle and the Templars, or I can say they are misguided by the Maker's teachings. 

I think it just provides a cooler "perspective on events." I like that in Legacy, when I talk to Anders, I can either believe in the story, be unsure, or agree with his belief (it is a story, nothing more). Something like that makes sense to include, just a perspective that doesn't neccesarily "require" you to ACT a cetain way. 

Modifié par Palipride47, 21 octobre 2012 - 09:25 .

[LobselVith8]

Vicious wrote...

No right at all, but it won't stop me from pointing out how silly a certain character viewpoint is in game terms, to help folks understand why Bioware is opting against it.

The atheist viewpoint is supported in Origins and Awakening. And Gaider didn't even remember that the atheist viewpoint was available in Origins or Awakening. He oddly tries to paint atheism being the same thing as wanting to destroy all religion, which makes no sense.

There is no reason to oppose the freedom for a player to have the option for their protagonist to be atheist in Thedas. I don't see how the viewpoint is "silly" at all. I can see why an elven mage wouldn't believe in a god when the people who followed this religion invaded the homeland of his people and imprison mages all across the Andrastian continent in the name of the Maker.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 21 octobre 2012 - 09:36 .

[esper]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Alexandrine Delassixe wrote...

jillabender wrote...

writers aren't likely to allow the PC to go on a crusade against all religion, 

Did anyone even ask for that? o.o

Yes.  

"I want to destroy the Chantry," ring a bell?

Thedas is simply not prepared - culturally, philosophically, or politically - for the kind of secular humanist wish fulfillment a certain subsection of fans want to live out in a game.

Well, now is the time to weaken with the mage and templars running loose and a civil war in its homebase, it is it not? I am not saying I want to destroy religion, but if there ever is a chance to change how the chantry work, it would be now. Alas, that would properly be too lore-changing and far reaching consequences (Not just in this age, but in the many next to come) that it can't be realisticly portrayed in a game.


Realisticly speaking we could be standing in something akin to the protestantic/cathlolic split, Thedas is ready for that. Alternatively, I could see the current structure completely collapse and two new (let's call them the Leliana branch and the Petrice branch, because the way latter speaks in act three when she survives does hint on a 'schism' in the chantry). If the Chantry does branch out I would have to revaluate it again, because it would be a new situation.

But honestly I will be satisified with just being able to not work FOR the Divine or the chantry, so I am not forced to strengthen them.

[EpicBoot2daFace]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Caiden they might be thinking: out of sight, out of mind. It seems the developers don't want us to discuss the lack of atheist and racial options in Dragon Age, considering how they close the threads even when people are addressing their options without turning the discussion into a bitter feud. I didn't see any reason for the racial thread to be closed when people were civilly addressing their opinions on the matter. It's starting to become ridiculous.

If you have greivances with my moderating, send me a PM and state your case, instead of showing Sid Meier that he's right that gamers are paranoid.

What I see are people being petulant towards one another in a way that is poison to the community.  The most recent one wasn't just "I want multiple races" but was then used as evidence that "BioWare isn't listening" and when counterarguments were presented, suddenly it was turning into "race selection is THE MOST IMPORTANT THING of all bioware games" and nevermind the "DA2 didn't have race selection and look how poorly it did."

This isn't civil discussion.


Having said that, your concern has been noted.

I disagree. I participated in that that race thread and it was civil. As a mod, you should know to deal with trouble makers on an individual basis. You don't just close the thread and then start a new one.

[Hatchetman77]

Rawgrim wrote...

Check out a company called Origin, and one called Westwood. Those were the Bioware of the 80s and early 90s. Got utterly destroyed by EA, and I am sure most people here know what Origin is now.

Speaking of Westwood, anyone remember the BladeRunner game they put out in the late 90's?  Fully voiced, 10 different endings (major changes in the endings too, like sometimes you're a replicant and sometimes you aren't, you really never knew what was going to happen each time you played the game) subtle choices you made that altered game events later (ie, missing or catching a single clue may or may not trigger an ambush at a certain spot in the game). It was freakin awesome.

[Rawgrim]

Hatchetman77 wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Check out a company called Origin, and one called Westwood. Those were the Bioware of the 80s and early 90s. Got utterly destroyed by EA, and I am sure most people here know what Origin is now.

Speaking of Westwood, anyone remember the BladeRunner game they put out in the late 90's?  Fully voiced, 10 different endings (major changes in the endings too, like sometimes you're a replicant and sometimes you aren't, you really never knew what was going to happen each time you played the game) subtle choices you made that altered game events later (ie, missing or catching a single clue may or may not trigger an ambush at a certain spot in the game). It was freakin awesome.

I remember that one. Great game. i never finished it, though. I got severely stuck at some point.

[WhiteThunder]

It's not so much wanting it to suck as expecting it to suck based on the trend exhibited by the past few Bioware games. I hope it's good, I just don't think it will be based on the information I've received so far.

[Sainna]

MushroomMagic wrote...

I think people just are finding it so hip and trendy to bash EA that they're looking for any excuse to do so.   I think looking at how a great game like Mass Effect 3 gets universally condemned because of it's ending despite the fact that Bioware listened to fan feedback and provided clarification for the ending leads me to believe most Bioware fans like to think they're being victimized by a company that makes a living providing products that entertain people.

EA is not above criticism but I think the sheer level of hatred towards EA is so astronomical that the Bioware fan base has effectively closed their mind, refusing to even give anything a chance.  Rather like young Earth creationist have come to a conclusion first and now are looking for any justification they can find to support their pre-determined conclusion.

Frankly,  I think a lot of people will bash Dragon Age III just so they can give themselves an excuse to pirate the game.  They'll say it sucks and they're so glad they saved their money by pirating it first yet they'll play through the main campaign at least twice.  Maybe a small handful will end up buying it on steam but only once it's for sale for 5 dollars.

I must comment on this >.<

You have to understand that ME3 was not medicore/bad just because of the ending only. The side quests (pickup) quests where horrific, there was soo damned much autodialogue, to the point where you could for the first time feel that it's no longer ''your'' Shepard.
Dragon Age 2, while had some epic charecter banter and the story was also quite funky, sufferd from repeated scenary and many ( specially towards the end of the game) could not help but feel the game was rushed far, far too much and Bioware did what they could in the small time frame.

Fine, some people bash Bioware/EA just to bash and they really want DA3 to suck so they can just shout ''I freaking told you so!"
But I like to believe that many bash, shout and grr because they really are afraid that things are going downhill and at least if a lot of noise and angry things are made, EA will go OH NO, this might cost us money! And give Bioware bit more time/freedom/so forth to do their thing!

PS: I realise many times over Bioware's forumpeople have stated that EA has little to no influence over how the game is made? But it's really hard to believe, specially when you hear what dev's at Kickstarter rant about ( their experiance with publishers), not to mention the whole EA ''All of our games will now have somekind of multiplayer thingy''. I doubt Bioware can come and say nop, ours wont x)

[WhiteThunder]

MushroomMagic wrote...

I think people just are finding it so hip and trendy to bash EA that they're looking for any excuse to do so.   I think looking at how a great game like Mass Effect 3 gets universally condemned because of it's ending despite the fact that Bioware listened to fan feedback and provided clarification for the ending leads me to believe most Bioware fans like to think they're being victimized by a company that makes a living providing products that entertain people.

EA is not above criticism but I think the sheer level of hatred towards EA is so astronomical that the Bioware fan base has effectively closed their mind, refusing to even give anything a chance.  Rather like young Earth creationist have come to a conclusion first and now are looking for any justification they can find to support their pre-determined conclusion.

Frankly,  I think a lot of people will bash Dragon Age III just so they can give themselves an excuse to pirate the game.  They'll say it sucks and they're so glad they saved their money by pirating it first yet they'll play through the main campaign at least twice.  Maybe a small handful will end up buying it on steam but only once it's for sale for 5 dollars.

Just so you know, clarifying a bad ending doesn't make it a good ending.  Once a god literally comes out of a machine, no amount of clarification can make that ending anything but terrible.

[PinkysPain]

MushroomMagic wrote...
I think people just are finding it so hip and trendy to bash EA that they're looking for any excuse to do so.

I don't have a lot of problems with EA, they asserted too much pressure during DA2 development ... but with ME3 Bioware had enough time. Also I liked ME3 multiplayer.

I think looking at how a great game like Mass Effect 3 gets universally condemned because of it's ending despite the fact that Bioware listened to fan feedback and provided clarification for the ending leads me to believe most Bioware fans like to think they're being victimized by a company that makes a living providing products that entertain people.

I disagree with the writers on whether grim dark story telling is entertaining ... I want classical heroic and epic storytelling. For me the ME3 ending didn't need clarification ... it needed rectification.

I think a lot of people will bash Dragon Age III just so they can give themselves an excuse to pirate the game.

I didn't buy DA2 because I could see it was FUBAR before release, still haven't played it either ... probably never will (buy it or play it). I pre-ordered ME3, still haven't finished the single player campaign ... probably never will.

Really EA is not why I fear for DA3 ... here is why I fear for DA3 :

- the fact that the Bioware writers are still putting so much weight behind the ME3 ending is why I fear for DA3 (the refuse ending was an epic troll, first off you didn't get the achievement to finish the game and then they twittered that the galactic civilizations after you just used the Crucible any way as an obvious kick in the balls).

- the near certainty that again they are basically writing a huge part of your character background themselves in DA3, if you're an inquisitor that nails down a huge part of your character ... far more than merely being in the military or entering the wardens ... it's not necessarily bad, but it wasn't what they did in all the games they made that I liked ...

- autodialogue is back (and they absolutely HATE it when you call it that).

Modifié par PinkysPain, 21 octobre 2012 - 11:56 .

[SpEcIaLRyAn]

I think it'd be really funny if by some divine chance in nature DA3 comes out and it is the greatest game ever. A return to form for Bioware. Than we see a bunch of threads saying "Bioware you have proved me wrong." Than Gaider and the rest of the DA3 team are sitting in the studio looking at all the positive reception and they just all share a glance and grin at each other while nodding there heads.

If this happens than great. If it doesn't and Bioware yet lives after this than I hope it'll be a wake up call.

[The Six Path of Pain]

Vicious wrote...

Beside what right do you have telling people how to play their games and characters

No right at all, but it won't stop me from pointing out how silly a certain character viewpoint is in game terms, to help folks understand why Bioware is opting against it.

Then it's Biowares own fault then...If they didn't want an atheist or non believing character then they shouldn't have put the option to act like one in the first place <_<

[LinksOcarina]

Rawgrim wrote...

I hope it ends up being the best crpg ever made. I doubt it will be, of course, but i am still having hopes.

As for EA getting hatred...its well deserved.

No, it's not.

[Sister Goldring]

Nope, I think a great many people want DA3 to be a whole lot of (mutually incompatible) things but suck isn't one of them. 

Modifié par Sister Goldring, 22 octobre 2012 - 01:30 .

[Chromie]

Holy hell is that Busomjack?

[Sable Rhapsody]

I want DA3 to be awesome. And it's futile, but having had friends and SO's in the games industry, I also want crunch time to be less agonizing for the devs.

[xsamplexample]

MushroomMagic wrote...

I think people just are finding it so hip and trendy to bash EA that they're looking for any excuse to do so.   I think looking at how a great game like Mass Effect 3 gets universally condemned because of it's ending despite the fact that Bioware listened to fan feedback and provided clarification for the ending leads me to believe most Bioware fans like to think they're being victimized by a company that makes a living providing products that entertain people.

EA is not above criticism but I think the sheer level of hatred towards EA is so astronomical that the Bioware fan base has effectively closed their mind, refusing to even give anything a chance.  Rather like young Earth creationist have come to a conclusion first and now are looking for any justification they can find to support their pre-determined conclusion.

Frankly,  I think a lot of people will bash Dragon Age III just so they can give themselves an excuse to pirate the game.  They'll say it sucks and they're so glad they saved their money by pirating it first yet they'll play through the main campaign at least twice.  Maybe a small handful will end up buying it on steam but only once it's for sale for 5 dollars.

whos hoping it will suck?  I think anyone whos bothering to even post on this forum wants the game to have the important aspects that we love....

[Savber100]

Bashing Bioware now just feels like you're bashing your old, ex-girlfriend...

It just hurts, man...

[Fdingo]

People expect DA3 to suck, they don't want it to suck.