7 réponses à ce sujet

[Malfurus]

I'm sure there are certain parties that may not like Clerics or the lore they play in fantasy history but I for one sure do. Ever after reading The Dragon Lance series with Cysania the cleric and then reading several different work of fiction, while playing games like Ice Wind Dale and BG2, I've just had a thing for those who command the power of light...or darkness through powers bestowed upon them by God/Gods. Shielding my companions from enemy fire or plunging my sword wreathed in darkness into the gut of an approaching Templar kinds of makes for fun play in my humble opinion. So having said that, please please PLEASE Bioware, if you can somehow find lore for a Cleric class in the Orlais Expansion (Considering that is where the Chantry was first started and at its strongest) I would be, including some of the community I'm sure, ever so pleased.

Ideas - Divine Shield: Protects the caster from enemy fire for ten seconds. Cooldown: 30 seconds etc etc...

I can think of awesome powers to wield. For example I see a fireball directed at me, so I summon a shield to protect me and my companions. What does everyone think? And if you can think of a power a cleric in this game could have, post it, would be awesome to see and hear ideas.

[David Gaider]

Clerics in the classic sense of D&D won't work in Dragon Age. There is no proof of the Divine, no 'holy power" as it were, any were such power to suddenly manifest itself that would pretty much handle the issue of the Maker's existence, wouldn't it? And that's not going to happen -- the existence of the Divine is a matter of Faith. Were the Maker to suddenly let his power be felt (especially in such a mundane manner) that would only call into question the truth of his status as a deity (as opposed to some powerful, extraplanar being... there is a difference, after all).

That does not mean that Clerics couldn't potentially exist as a class, however. They would not be the recipients of holy spells, but that doesn't mean they couldn't be a form of warrior or have access to some form of magic-like talents -- we would be talking, after all, about Clerics with some form of special training and not your average priest in a Chantry. Granting all Chantry priests some form of special power just isn't going to happen, period.

Would we create such an order of Cleric with said special training, inserting them into the world? Probably not. I get people liking D&D Clerics, but what they do to the issue of faith in the D&D world just isn't acceptable in Dragon Age. We're not apt to break the entire setting for the love of another setting's class -- though this doesn't mean we couldn't ever have some kind of "holy crusader" class; it just means such a class wouldn't have holy power stemming directly from some deity.

[David Gaider]

fanman72 wrote...
Even if the Maker never shows himself, I thought Andraste's ashes were proof of evidence of for the maker??  Why else would charred remains of somebody who died long ago work in healing the sick?

I'm sure that some people can interpret proof however they wish, but the assumption that the power of the ashes stems from divine power as opposed to more mundane healing magic stems from the idea (or claim, if you prefer) that those are the ashes of Andraste and nothing more. Proof of the supernatural is hardly proof of the divine, especially when the difference between the ashes and a regular healing spell is a degree in potency. You may ascribe that power to whatever you wish, but so long as the truth can be argued it's existence as proof of anything is questionable.

P.S.  Are we going to see and roam the Black City in later Dragon Age games or novels????

I don't know. Maybe? Entering the Fade physically in any capacity has only ever been done once in history, so it's not exactly just a place you can visit casually.

[David Gaider]

ladydesire wrote...
This, in essence, is what Reynen Starfyre did with his community Cleric class, though it is somewhat overpowered compared to a DA Warrior; I'd hazard a guess that it's no more overpowered than a Mage/Arcane Warrior could be.

Regardless of the issue of "holy power", I'll point out that the one thing you want to avoid if you can when it comes to class design is the existence of the Tank Mage -- a class that casts spells as well as a mage and fights as well as a fighter and avoids most of the pitfalls of either. Advocating that you want a Cleric to be a Tank Mage equivalent  is pointless above and beyond the fact that D&D Clerics don't fit into DA for the reasons of "holy power", because we won't do it... heck, even the Arcane Warrior specialization comes a little too close to that status, if you ask me.

[David Gaider]

Schwapp wrote...
Doesn't the above paragraph negate your whole position that the existence of clerics would confirm the existence of The Maker, though? The same argument could be made that the clerics are just attributing their abilities to The Maker based on their feelings and faith, while the rest of the world doubts the veracity of their claims.

I understand that, for whatever reason, clerics still won't be put into the game, but the logic behind the explanation as to why is flawed.

Perhaps it's because you don't understand the argument.

If you have someone who is casting spells, the fact that they *believe* that those spells come from the Maker is pretty irrelevant. They're mages. It's also something the Chantry would not agree with. The Maker doesn't go around granting magic to his followers. That goes against the very fundamental beliefs of the Chantry regarding magic in the first place.

Even if you had followers of some other religion who were going around casting their spells, they would still be considered mages. The entire premise of clerics as a class (or so I'm led to believe) is that they have holy power. Not pretend holy power, but actual holy power that drives off undead and evil -- the direct intervention of their god. And while I speculated that their "god" could simply be some extraplanar being, we don't have any such being in Dragon Age. I'll allow that we could always introduce such a thing, but it would have to pretty specifically not be an omnipotent god in any shape or form that would challenge the nature of faith in our setting. Because we consider that to be very important.

[David Gaider]

DBHolm wrote...
I think clerics can be explained without challenging the nature of faith in Dragon Age, but it all depends on what kind of archetypes you will allow. If the cleric archetype is not what you seek, then that's that. 

Except that clerics as you describe them would just be a mage class by another name. Presumably a mage class that also allowed non-magical talents giving the use of weapons, which -- ignoring the Tank Mage design issue -- would also require the existence of a stamina bar in addition to a mana bar (which the engine does not currently allow). I assume we could just have all their talents, including weapon talents, run off the mana bar... but wouldn't that be weird?

And these wouldn't be Chantry clerics. Priests aren't suddenly going to start casting spells in our setting, healing or otherwise. It would have to be something else entirely. At which point what exactly is the purpose of calling it a "cleric" when they have no actual holy power and it's not actually a member of the clergy?

[David Gaider]

Schwapp wrote...
Again, keep clerics out of the game if you like. But don't try to say that it is a matter of rock-solid logic, rather than just an arbitrary decision made during the planning stages of the game.

Err... of course it's an arbitrary decision made during the formation of the setting. How else do you think settings are made? I'm talking about the logic of how the setting works -- which I happen to know quite well, thank you. In terms of adding a base class to the game, one based on magic-wielding holy men, it doesn't work without adding something entirely new to the world... which, in the end, is simply another type of mage, insofar as the setting will view it.

How this is me being short-sighted I really can't imagine. But apparently anyone who doesn't agree with you just isn't thinking it through enough? I'm telling you that clerics, as they exist as an archetype, don't fit. You can do with that what you will.

[David Gaider]

Schwapp wrote...
I get that you know why decisions were made and all that, but knowing what can and can't fit into the game world is something that a player can have a fairly educated opinion on, as well. You're arguing there was something other than a plain ol' arbitrary decision made here when you defend the decision by suggesting that the cleric class just couldn't exist in the world as built. When confronted by the bits in the game that seem to confirm the existence of The Maker, you present arguments that would just as easily defend the presence of clerics unassociated with the Chantry as they would defend Andraste's ashes. But you're stubbornly refusing to entertain the idea.

I've entertained the idea as far as I'm willing to, and I've already provided possible ways that a type of cleric class could be incorporated and still fit with the setting. And I think I've pretty clearly stated what won't work in the setting. And now I will take my stubborn, short-sighted self elsewhere.