384 réponses à ce sujet

[JaegerBane]

[quote]Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...
So ;what you are saying is anti-theists should get the first and last word, eh? He got in his religion bashing, I responded and asked him to refrain from furthur religion bashing. But anti-theists seem to have an irrational uncontrollable compulsion to express their anti-theist bigotry against religion. Sorry, when anti-theists bash religion I will likely respond.
[/quote]

Clearly not. What I'm saying is that if you ask someone to stop religion bashing it strikes everyone as tragically petty that you then go on to extend the very argument that you're asking the guy to desist - the point about 'lots of evidence of god' etc.

You did the correct thing by asking him to stop. You made yourself sound like an idiot when you then proceeded to carry the argument on *after* asking him to stop. Practice what you preach.

[quote]
You seem to lack the ability to comrprhend that something is not true just because you claim it to be true.
[/quote]

I think you've yapped this line a dozen times now. At what point have I actually said something is true because I've claimed it? As I asked before, can you please stick to what I've written in my posts..

[quote]
When you or "your side" says that Maker does not exist and the old gods don't exist you have to back that up. It is not true just because you say so.

Again, when you say Andraste did not have divine powers, you have to back that up. The evidence in the game points to her having divine powers and the urn miracle reinforces that.
[/quote]

*sigh*

I thought I'd made this clear. Will it help if I use very small words? Here, I'll try bold text.

I AM NOT SAYING THAT ANDRASTE LACKED DIVINE POWERS. I AM SAYING THAT THERE IS NO HARD EVIDENCE FOR IT, AND NOTHING IN THE GAME DISPROVES THAT SHE WAS A MAGE.

There. Do I need to PM you that statement 30 times, just to make sure it's clear?

The Urn is nonetheless evidence to suggest she wasn't a complete fake, at least. But since you don't honestly know who's ashes are in there - or if they even are cremated ashes at all - and the fact that the chamber is laced with lyrium, an element of massive significane to Magi and borderline useless to anyone but magic users and craftsmen, I don't think there's enough evidence to unquivocally state that she must have had divine powers. In a world where a percentage of the population can freeze things solid or blow up houses with their minds, there really needs to be a bit more to prove the distinction.

[quote]
Maybe they are, maybe they aren't, but the only actual solid evidence we have for where they come from is what we find in the dead trenches. That they come from infected female victims who have undergone mutation into Broodmothers. 
[/quote]

I don't care if you claim they came from a purple dinosaur named Barney as long as you have in game evidence of your claim. Unfortunately, there seems to be no evidence to back up your claims.
[/quote]

*sigh*
The evidence is in the game, for god's sake. Just do the Broodmother quest and listen to Hespith and Branka. It's right there in black and yellowy parchment.

I swear, this is like trying to get sense out of a pebble. HAve you actually played through the game?

[quote]
Nah, there is ZILCH evidence that she was a mage. The in game evidence says she was a prophet of the Maker and had divine powers. The urn backs that up.
[/quote]

Oh, right, so the fact that she somehow managed to not burn to death despite being set on fire is completely normal, right? And the fact her temple is laced with Lyrium, the 'essence of magic', is completely unimportant, yep?

If you keep pushing your fingers deeper into your ears you'll puncture your ear drums.

[quote]
LOL! You are not seriously saying it is likely she returned as the high dragon. LOL!
[/quote]

And why not? The game calls her a dragon, after all, how is this any different to your own argument? What is it, specifically, that allows you to ignore what the game is saying here?

[quote]
Nah, you and your side are ones sticking your fingers in your ears and shouting lalalaaaaa!  The in game references to the Black City say it was the city of the Maker. Present your evidence that it is something else.
[/quote]

Oh, how insightful. 'No I'm not, you are!'. Way to go. 

I already presented the evidence further up. I can;t be bothered to repeat it just because you won't read it.


[quote]
Oh please, all the demons are presented as being immoral beings, liars, and murderers. Demons are not trustworthy.

Oh, you seem to be confused about no instance of a demon lying in the game. Didn't you play through the mage tower? The demon was clearly doing quite a bit of lying while brainwashing. And are you claiming the nightmares generated by the sloth demon had no lies? Please.[/quote]

Actually, no, the only common factor in demons was the fact they're all evil. Each type of demon is completely different. This isn't a complicated concept, grumpy. It's rather simple, and to use your chanting, the game actually says they are different. If you're going to scream 'prove it' every time you hit an argument you can;t answer, it might be an idea to start practicing what you preach.

And frankly, trying to claim Rage demons are liars because Sloth demons generate nightmares is idiotic. You might as well claim that all dreams are lies, too. The rage demon wasn't giving you dreams. It didn't have you in a reality where everything is subject to change.

It was standing in front of you. Telling you the maker doesn't exist. Don;t dance about the issue - prove that rage demons lie as a matter of course. Do it.

In case it wasn't clear, I don't really believe the Rage demon itself. The above is not intended to convey my opinion on the matter - it's to attempt to illustrate the futility of dismissing points based on the fact that they can't be directly proven. You can't prove the rage demon was lying or not - because there is no proof in the game. Nowhere is there any solid evidence to suggest Rage demons lie (or even are capable of lying - the act itself does require intelligence after all, not exactly a Rage's strong point).

By the same token, you cannot prove half the things you;ve arrogantly decreed. They're mentioned, sure, but never proven. So stop screaming 'PROVE IT' every time someone posts a reasoned argument and respond with a bit sense, please.

[Malfurus]

dalethfc wrote...

I am Starting to See the Paladin lovers here.
The "I want to use warrior gear and be able to Bubble up and heal myself"
These are the, "I aint good enough to play any other way" Types.
If you want a loladin or a mobile A&E unit, play something else that is a DnD
It's been put soooooooooooooo many times that it aint gonna happen.

Learn to play the classes properly and you will see the is NO NEED for "Praise The Lord,, Your Cured Mate" class.
My Mages Heal Fine and My own switches to Arcane Warrior as and When More protection and dps are needed, and she Can Heal to.

Some people just dont seem to want to hear the word "NO" even when Bioware say it.
@tekbear they are the closet to a Paladin I think the game will have. but for some moaners,, they want the First Aid Kit with it.
@FlintlockJazz I set tactics to cast that on anyone who's health drops to 30% and it does work

And Now my car is buried in Snow,,, AGAIN

Soooo many things wrong with this post. When did Bioware say "No" to a cleric class? I might be missing something hear but I could swear I never saw any article, post, forum that a Bioware moderator has come out and said "Hey guys, just to let you know so you're not wondering, there will never be a Cleric class in the game because we want to keep the storyline regarding religion ambigous, and we will never let you enter the Black City to find the truth, we will never have the Maker return, or the old gods. Matter of fact, we want you to forget the fact that the game just came out and there is so much potential regarding storyline and plot, and we want to let you know right now that its futile to keep your hopes up because we will NEVER make a Cleric class in the game, because you know very well, we're not very creative and any Cleric class we have to create is going to have to follow the DnD rules and be completely overpowered like the Arcane Warrior, and you know us, we don't want TWO overpowered classes in the game because it doesn't make it as fun and its obviously going to ruin the storyline that we obviously spent so much time on because apparently we can't make an not overpowered Cleric class, shame on us." 

Are you serious? Get out of here with comments like those. And Mages having the ability to heal? I'm sorry, being able to cast Blizzard, Tempest, Storm of the Century, Inferno, Earthquake, Petrify, Crushing Prison, Mind Blast, Fireball, Cone of Cold AND being able to heal my entire party and revive them in the middle of battle and to maybe buff them up a little bit is sooo not overpowered right? Nothing wrong with that right? We shouldn't put Spirit Healer or any healing abilities into a different class right? Oh not only that, let me just put on Combat Magic and maybe a few spells from the Arcane Warrior tree, learn a bit of hexes and paralyzing abilities and spend about 20 gold to make so many lyrium potions that I can endlessly chug, and yet here I am worrying about the possibilities of how a yet, non existent class will be overpowered. 


Seriously? seriously? Enough said.

Modifié par Malfurus, 06 janvier 2010 - 08:50 .

[ladydesire]

Malfurus, here is a quote of what David Gaider said in this thread on this very subject:

Clerics in the classic sense of D&D won't work in Dragon Age. There
is no proof of the Divine, no 'holy power" as it were, any were such
power to suddenly manifest itself that would pretty much handle the
issue of the Maker's existence, wouldn't it? And that's not going to
happen -- the existence of the Divine is a matter of Faith. Were the
Maker to suddenly let his power be felt (especially in such a mundane
manner) that would only call into question the truth of his status as a
deity (as opposed to some powerful, extraplanar being... there is a difference, after all).

That
does not mean that Clerics couldn't potentially exist as a class,
however. They would not be the recipients of holy spells, but that
doesn't mean they couldn't be a form of warrior or have access to some
form of magic-like talents -- we would be talking, after all, about
Clerics with some form of special training and not your average priest
in a Chantry. Granting all Chantry priests some form of special power
just isn't going to happen, period.

This, in essence, is what Reynen Starfyre did with his community Cleric class, though it is somewhat overpowered compared to a DA Warrior; I'd hazard a guess that it's no more overpowered than a Mage/Arcane Warrior could be.

[David Gaider]

ladydesire wrote...
This, in essence, is what Reynen Starfyre did with his community Cleric class, though it is somewhat overpowered compared to a DA Warrior; I'd hazard a guess that it's no more overpowered than a Mage/Arcane Warrior could be.

Regardless of the issue of "holy power", I'll point out that the one thing you want to avoid if you can when it comes to class design is the existence of the Tank Mage -- a class that casts spells as well as a mage and fights as well as a fighter and avoids most of the pitfalls of either. Advocating that you want a Cleric to be a Tank Mage equivalent  is pointless above and beyond the fact that D&D Clerics don't fit into DA for the reasons of "holy power", because we won't do it... heck, even the Arcane Warrior specialization comes a little too close to that status, if you ask me.

[Viglin]

David Gaider wrote...

ladydesire wrote...
This, in essence, is what Reynen Starfyre did with his community Cleric class, though it is somewhat overpowered compared to a DA Warrior; I'd hazard a guess that it's no more overpowered than a Mage/Arcane Warrior could be.

Regardless of the issue of "holy power", I'll point out that the one thing you want to avoid if you can when it comes to class design is the existence of the Tank Mage -- a class that casts spells as well as a mage and fights as well as a fighter and avoids most of the pitfalls of either. Advocating that you want a Cleric to be a Tank Mage equivalent  is pointless above and beyond the fact that D&D Clerics don't fit into DA for the reasons of "holy power", because we won't do it... heck, even the Arcane Warrior specialization comes a little too close to that status, if you ask me.

And ld say most of us agree. To say l was more then surprised that once l took it my wimpy mage could throw on armor that my warrior couldnt even wear....

Now about those Lyruim Veins in The Anvil of the Void:innocent:

[Chriagon]

 It was a lot of fun playing an arcane warrior though.

Mabye you should grant an arcane warrior just one specialization. Combining an arcane warrior with a spirit healer might be a bit too much...

[JackDresden]

Maviarab wrote...

Wonders why everyone needs clerics so badly....this is not DnD....

I think because people get stuck in their ways having played D&D for years many people think any fantasy RPG most cling to all the standard D&D cliches.

e.g. pretty powerful and near immortal elves, clerics granted divine power (and trained in the use of armour) but with these granted powers mostly around healing.

I'm waiting for someone to demand halflings and dark elves because the game is clearly not complete without them ;-).

To me it's a strange mindset, I've enjoyed playing D&D as well as D&D based CRPGS in my time. But that doesn't mean I want every fantasy world to conform to all the cliches.

I find people who say come on why aren't there 50 classes in this game equally strange, like having more classes with less choices on character development within the class is some how better. Not only that they will then trot out as here a list of D&D classes that most be replicated.

It's like they can't enjoy dragon age for what it is they need to turn it into an exact clone of a D&D game they enjoyed years ago.

[Malfurus]

ladydesire wrote...

Malfurus, here is a quote of what David Gaider said in this thread on this very subject:

Clerics in the classic sense of D&D won't work in Dragon Age. There
is no proof of the Divine, no 'holy power" as it were, any were such
power to suddenly manifest itself that would pretty much handle the
issue of the Maker's existence, wouldn't it? And that's not going to
happen -- the existence of the Divine is a matter of Faith. Were the
Maker to suddenly let his power be felt (especially in such a mundane
manner) that would only call into question the truth of his status as a
deity (as opposed to some powerful, extraplanar being... there is a difference, after all).

That
does not mean that Clerics couldn't potentially exist as a class,
however. They would not be the recipients of holy spells, but that
doesn't mean they couldn't be a form of warrior or have access to some
form of magic-like talents -- we would be talking, after all, about
Clerics with some form of special training and not your average priest
in a Chantry. Granting all Chantry priests some form of special power
just isn't going to happen, period.

This, in essence, is what Reynen Starfyre did with his community Cleric class, though it is somewhat overpowered compared to a DA Warrior; I'd hazard a guess that it's no more overpowered than a Mage/Arcane Warrior could be.

Again, it does not have to be the Maker that grants those powers. Even in his quote he acknowledges the possibility of "some powerful, extraplanar being", and THAT could be the source of the power. And did everyone forget about Morrigan's child? Whether you slept with her or not I'm sure that their is a big storyline in that direction. She stated that the child bears the soul of the Old Gods and that shes not interested in the tainted form but rather the true form and power of the Old Gods that it posses. You seriously can't tell me that after all that Bioware is going to be like "Oh no, Morrigan was wrong all along, she couldn't do crap with the kid, it didn't have any powers, actually he got twisted into an abomination of a darkspawn after it matured." He could come back and start a crusade, granting his followers powers, convincing them he's a God reborn . Granted he may not dwell in some divine plane, but none the less, its the POSSIBILITY. Having said that to have a Cleric is still a possibility in the game, so don't dismiss it. 

Modifié par Malfurus, 06 janvier 2010 - 10:16 .

[JackDresden]

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...

An arcane warrior-spirit healer is not a decent cleric type for reasons already mentioned a numbe of times. Evidently some people have trouble reading.

You mean reasons that you don't consider it an exact replication of the D&D class. Why did Bioware bother with there own setting? why try anything remotley different.........maybe some of us enjoy to every CRPG being a clone of the forgotten realms setting.

Anyway we are never going to see eye to eye on this so I'm going to give up at this point sounds like Bioware have the sense not to break their on setting to pander to a minority who are betermined this game most have the D&D version of clerics in.

But luckily for you some equally obsessed players are creating a MOD which I hope you enjoy.

[JackDresden]

Malfurus wrote...

ladydesire wrote...

Malfurus, here is a quote of what David Gaider said in this thread on this very subject:

Clerics in the classic sense of D&D won't work in Dragon Age. There
is no proof of the Divine, no 'holy power" as it were, any were such
power to suddenly manifest itself that would pretty much handle the
issue of the Maker's existence, wouldn't it? And that's not going to
happen -- the existence of the Divine is a matter of Faith. Were the
Maker to suddenly let his power be felt (especially in such a mundane
manner) that would only call into question the truth of his status as a
deity (as opposed to some powerful, extraplanar being... there is a difference, after all).

That
does not mean that Clerics couldn't potentially exist as a class,
however. They would not be the recipients of holy spells, but that
doesn't mean they couldn't be a form of warrior or have access to some
form of magic-like talents -- we would be talking, after all, about
Clerics with some form of special training and not your average priest
in a Chantry. Granting all Chantry priests some form of special power
just isn't going to happen, period.

This, in essence, is what Reynen Starfyre did with his community Cleric class, though it is somewhat overpowered compared to a DA Warrior; I'd hazard a guess that it's no more overpowered than a Mage/Arcane Warrior could be.

Again, it does not have to be the Maker that grants those powers. Even in his quote he acknowledges the possibility of "some powerful, extraplanar being", and THAT could be the source of the power. And did everyone forget about Morrigan's child? Whether you slept with her or not I'm sure that their is a big storyline in that direction. She stated that the child bears the soul of the Old Gods and that shes not interested in the tainted form but rather the true form and power of the Old Gods that it posses. You seriously can't tell me that after all that Bioware is going to be like "Oh no, Morrigan was wrong all along, she couldn't do crap with the kid, it didn't have any powers, actually he got twisted into an abomination of a darkspawn after it matured." He could come back and start a crusade, granting his followers powers, convincing them he's a God reborn . Granted he may not dwell in some divine plane, but none the less, its the POSSIBILITY. Having said that to have a Cleric is still a possibility in the game, so don't dismiss it. 

It's already possible to gain powers from extra planr beings within the game....one character does so as do abominatons who does dealing with demons or other spirits make you a priest techincally the chantry the official religion would see you as an apostate or technically some sort of abomination so as a cleric it doesn't really make much sense although a mage who deals with extra planar beings for more power as you have described is already in the world of dragon age.

For example an abomination gets part of it's power from a demon and so is a cleric by your definition.

A cleric is the priest or pristess of a religion it does not imply that they have any divine magic granted by a good, or a connection with any intraplanar being.

A shaman class or specialisation that gains power from verious non-demonic shade spirits on the other hand could fit the setting well but as I say would be considered an apostate by the chantry rather than a cleric.

[Viglin]

JackDresden wrote...

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...

An arcane warrior-spirit healer is not a decent cleric type for reasons already mentioned a numbe of times. Evidently some people have trouble reading.

You mean reasons that you don't consider it an exact replication of the D&D class. Why did Bioware bother with there own setting? why try anything remotley different.........maybe some of us enjoy to every CRPG being a clone of the forgotten realms setting.

Anyway we are never going to see eye to eye on this so I'm going to give up at this point sounds like Bioware have the sense not to break their on setting to pander to a minority who are betermined this game most have the D&D version of clerics in.

But luckily for you some equally obsessed players are creating a MOD which I hope you enjoy.

You cant blame him, hes not called HappyUnderstandingWizard afterall.

And miss your show.

[Schneidend]

David Gaider wrote...

Regardless of the issue of "holy power", I'll point out that the one thing you want to avoid if you can when it comes to class design is the existence of the Tank Mage -- a class that casts spells as well as a mage and fights as well as a fighter and avoids most of the pitfalls of either. Advocating that you want a Cleric to be a Tank Mage equivalent  is pointless above and beyond the fact that D&D Clerics don't fit into DA for the reasons of "holy power", because we won't do it... heck, even the Arcane Warrior specialization comes a little too close to that status, if you ask me.

This.

Arcane Warrior is one of the most potent specializations in the entire game. It is perhaps the only specialization that completely changes the class into something more than it was before. It's certainly the only talent tree in the entire game with a starting talent that is both a potent sustainable ability and a passive that changes how equipment works for the character. That's saying something.

I've tried to explain how easy it is to play an Arcane Warrior/Spirit Healer successfully is with just a little bit of micromanagement. That is to say, no more micromanagement than it takes for a two-handed warrior to maximize their DPS by timing their uses of Sunder Arms or Sunder Armor immediately after a regular auto-attack. I've done it. I've built Wynne to do just this, and it is a glorious sight to see those old bones heal the entire party back to full health and then perform a deathblow on an ogre.

[Vae_Victis]

But luckily for you some equally obsessed players are creating a MOD which I hope you enjoy.

Yep that's why there's a Toolset. If you don't agree with the way Bioware does it do it your own way. If you bought the game on console...well then .

Just playing around I made me a death knight (as in Lord Soth not WoW) type class that uses the Spirit, Entropy, and 2-Handed talents and a custom line of talents to make it all work together.

I was thinking about making a Gray Warden specilization since I think this is a glaring oversight but I'd have to do custom scripts for it which would be much more complicated.

[ladydesire]

Malfurus wrote...

Having said that to have a Cleric is still a possibility in the game, so don't dismiss it. 

He also described what such a cleric would be, and it does not include having powers from a divine source (unless you count the fade creatures as such which he does not).

[dalethfc]

Wizard and also Malfurus,, Read,, or do you need to go to spec savers ?

David Gaider wrote...

Regardless of the issue of "holy power", I'll point out that the one thing you want to avoid if you can when it comes to class design is the existence of the Tank Mage -- a class that casts spells as well as a mage and fights as well as a fighter and avoids most of the pitfalls of either. Advocating that you want a Cleric to be a Tank Mage equivalent is pointless above and beyond the fact that D&D Clerics don't fit into DA for the reasons of "holy power", because we won't do it... heck, even the Arcane Warrior specialization comes a little too close to that status, if you ask me.

And it is Fully explained in the game as to how mages specialise,,
but argumentitive people Like you will never shut up.
But of course you'll find another way to argue this.
you are boring people now,, the mod here should call this "Wizards moaning zone" because so far you argue and disagree with every single thing. I will not answer anymore of your posts as it is a waste of time.

@ vae_victis it's been said about the Cleric mod and even the toolkit,, but they still aint happy.. they want DnD types.

I am looking forward to the class ladydesire is working on

Modifié par dalethfc, 07 janvier 2010 - 02:45 .

[Iris562]

"Main Entry: cler·ic

Pronunciation: \\ˈkler-ik, ˈkle-rik\\

Function: noun

Etymology: Late Latin clericus

Date: 1621

: a member of the clergy"



There you have it. There are billions of Clerics in game already, the Chantry being the equivalent of the Clergy.

[Vicious]

people get stuck in their ways having played D&D for years many people think any fantasy RPG most cling to all the standard D&D cliches.



e.g. pretty powerful and near immortal elves, clerics granted divine power (and trained in the use of armour) but with these granted powers mostly around healing.

THANK YOU.



Good riddance to small cliche's.

[ladydesire]

Vicious wrote...

people get stuck in their ways having played D&D for years many people think any fantasy RPG most cling to all the standard D&D cliches.

e.g. pretty powerful and near immortal elves, clerics granted divine power (and trained in the use of armour) but with these granted powers mostly around healing.

THANK YOU.

Good riddance to small cliche's.

Come to think of it, isn't the Cleric purely a design of D&D (as far as being gifted from an obvious deity), since I don't recall the existence of such a character in Lord of the Rings, unless Lord Elrond was one.

[RangerSG]

ladydesire,



Well, cleric is not 'just' from D&D. It was an appeal to the myths and legends of the Middle Ages where a priest would bless their companions with one hand while standing at the front line. Now most of the people who actually 'tried' this historically died gruesomely, but they still were legends.



But it was D&D that brought this into gaming, yes. And I don't think there's anything a cleric 'class' adds to DA. I still say I think I'd like to see the Chantry a playable faction in an expansion or future game. But I can see that it didn't fit in 'this' story.

[ladydesire]

RangerSG wrote...

Well, cleric is not 'just' from D&D. It was an appeal to the myths and legends of the Middle Ages where a priest would bless their companions with one hand while standing at the front line. Now most of the people who actually 'tried' this historically died gruesomely, but they still were legends.

Why go that far back; ever heard of a song entitled "Sky Pilot"? Google it if you haven't, since I think it applies to some extent in this discussion.

Modifié par ladydesire, 07 janvier 2010 - 01:00 .

[RangerSG]

Well, I go that far back because that's what Gygax and co. were looking at when they modified "Chainmail" to make it a fantasy game.

[spiritage]

clerics would ruin the game and its religions, and you complain about overpowered combos.. -.-



Drawing from a divine source in itself is overpowered, and you should be ashamed. (imho)