384 réponses à ce sujet

[Schwapp]

Never mind...

Modifié par Schwapp, 07 janvier 2010 - 06:06 .

[TheGreenLion]

Cleric is just a name, yall should be happy that they make it possible to make a cleric-esque type class even with tha Chantry and Magi at each others throats.



You may be short-sighted Mr. Gaider...but you are ehhh..hmm, long.......minded? Well it was sposed to be a compliment anyhow.

[fanman72]

DBHolm wrote...

David Gaider wrote...
If you have someone who is casting spells, the fact that they *believe* that those spells come from the Maker is pretty irrelevant. They're mages. It's also something the Chantry would not agree with. The Maker doesn't go around granting magic to his followers. That goes against the very fundamental beliefs of the Chantry regarding magic in the first place.

The Chantry might not agree, but that matters only as far as the populace will let it. If a majority could be convinced that the Maker is the source of a specific branch of magic (or all magic, for that matter), they could pass those teachings on instead of the Chantry's -- a rival religion, if you will.

Yes, they would be mages -- they'd be wielding magic. Their power would not stem from the Maker, no matter how much they believed it, and any mage capable of learning the magic could do so without being affiliated with them. That isn't really in dispute. But they can claim just about anything, as long as the question of faith remains unanswered.

David Gaider wrote...
Even if you had followers of some other religion who were going around casting their spells, they would still be considered mages. The entire premise of clerics as a class (or so I'm led to believe) is that they have holy power. Not pretend holy power, but actual holy power that drives off undead and evil -- the direct intervention of their god. And while I speculated that their "god" could simply be some extraplanar being, we don't have any such being in Dragon Age. I'll allow that we could always introduce such a thing, but it would have to pretty specifically not be an omnipotent god in any shape or form that would challenge the nature of faith in our setting. Because we consider that to be very important.

Does it matter whether the magic itself is holy? If it accomplishes what you describe, and the mages who cast such magic claim it is holy, who can disprove them? Even claims of mages unaffiliated with such a religion wielding their magic could be discredited by simply saying it is a magical mimicry of their holy powers -- and that would only be a concern if they attempt to divorce their powers from the current idea of magic. They could instead promote the Maker as the source of all magic, though that would be an extremely controversial claim. 

I think clerics can be explained without challenging the nature of faith in Dragon Age, but it all depends on what kind of archetypes you will allow. If the cleric archetype is not what you seek, then that's that. 

One major problem I see is that it simply doesn't make sense to have clerics from a lore perspective as it stands right now.  Two main reasons:

1) Its arbritary who gets magical powers and who doesn't, many of whom consider it more of a burden than a blessing.  These people may not share the same views as The Chantry, and it's not as if praying harder will give them such powers in the first place.  It's very possible the thieving murderer will find themselves playing with magic before getting sent to the circle while Ned Flanders, who is devoted to the Maker will never obtain such powers.

2) Most mages hate the Chantry.  The Circle gets a lot of **** from The Templars and The Chantry, it's hard to imagine there's any large number of mages who would use their magic in the name of the maker.   

[fanman72]

TheGreenLion wrote...

Cleric is just a name, yall should be happy that they make it possible to make a cleric-esque type class even with tha Chantry and Magi at each others throats.

You may be short-sighted Mr. Gaider...but you are ehhh..hmm, long.......minded? Well it was sposed to be a compliment anyhow.

But again if Cleric is "just a name", how is it really any different than a spirit healer or arcane warrior specialization?   Does this distinction really warrant its own class?

[the_one_54321]

it sounds to me that one of the writers of the game has told you rather plainly that this world is not such that a "cleric" a la D&D would exist.



there are a few "real" gods and goddesses of the dragon age world. they quite literally decide how the world exists. one of them just plainly told you something about how the world exists.



clerics dont exist in this world. end of story.

[The Capital Gaultier]

fanman72 wrote...

But again if Cleric is "just a name", how is it really any different than a spirit healer or arcane warrior specialization?   Does this distinction really warrant its own class?

Indeed it does.

[Rahelron]

I think that the lack of clerics and of divine magic is one of the key features of DAO and I like that. I also like the fact that the chantry is very similar to the real Christian Church so go bioware, keep it up this way.

[FlintlockJazz]

dalethfc wrote...

@FlintlockJazz I set tactics to cast that on anyone who's health drops to 30% and it does work

And Now my car is buried in Snow,,, AGAIN

Ah cool thanks!  Since it's not an instant effect it's sometimes hard to tell whether it's worth using sometimes heh, nice to get confirmation that it is worth it. 

And I'm working from home due to the blimming snow!

Modifié par FlintlockJazz, 07 janvier 2010 - 10:22 .

[ArathWoeeye]

English isn't my native language, so I'm not too sure; but doesn't cleric mean a member of clergy, someone that is part of the church "staff"?

We have preachers all around in Dragon Age (by the way, is there a general name for DA world? Like Fearun or Sanctuary?). What we don't have is divine magic seperate from arcane. But that's DnD logic, I don't think we should be clinging to that. Mages can believe in Maker, as well.



Game-mechanic wise, take an arcane warrior+spirit healer mage with creation/entropy/conjuration/whatever spell you see fit. She could say that her faith allows her to wield the armor and give her the power to use the spells. Technically, it's the same magic, but having access to power and actually putting it to use are two different things, so I don't think it would be much of a lie (thinking in-character, since faith is about believing anyway) or too-stretched-workaround (thinking out-of-character).



Heck, I think I'll make one and play DaO with that.

[Taura-Tierno]

Isn't what some people talk about, priests with mage-powers believing themselves to have god-given powers, more of a plot-device than an actual class? A group of priests who practice magic, but believe it to be divine powers? Sounds more like something encountered during a quest or in a new part of the world (possibly as some new specialization), rather than a new class.

[Knal1991]

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...

If it is just lyrium why don't the dwarves live forever since they are mining and constantly exposed. Or the templars, who are adicted to it. Or the mages who drink it. The game certainly seems to imply Eamon's recovery is a miracle.

Anyways, I would like to see more classes and more specializations.

Actually, we do not know how exactley eamon was poisoned, if it was due to magic from a certain mage.
it could be that the highly lyrium infected ashes cured eamon. As dwarfs are naturally spell resistant...the ashes couldve been too.


EDIT: oh and I also don't want a clerc, they should just focus on more styles/disciplines/spells and specialisations...

who knows maybethey do clerc like char. as spec, which I still do not agree with though...

Modifié par Knal1991, 07 janvier 2010 - 11:08 .

[Varek_Raith]

Hasn't this horse been beaten enough? Bioware said 'No', and rightfully so. Clerics, in the D&D sense, do not fit into DA lore.

[dan107]

I didn't read the whole thread, but for people who want clerics -- why not just make an arcane warrior/spirit healer mage? The result is a plate wearing melee fighter that can heal. And on top of that you can RP him as a highly religious person who attributes his powers to the maker. Isn't that the exact description of a cleric?

Modifié par dan107, 07 janvier 2010 - 02:05 .

[Valcutio]

I'm a bit confused. Rogues have abilities that warriors don't have - it's called a specialty. Nobody can tell me that Clerics (or paladins) wouldn't fit in this game with a different set of skills and/or spells. Use stamina for both, why not? Or how about coloring the bar a different color and call it Zeal or Faith or Zest or whatever.



As far as lore goes - you can say that clerics/paladins have these abilities because they're trained to. Whether or not they're granted by The Maker would still be up for debate. If a Thief can be trained to pickpockets and a warrior can't - no reason a new class couldn't be introduced with their own abilities. To say otherwise just sounds silly.



As for how they would fit with the setting... we're not dealing with a world connected by the internet or satelites here. I'm sure there's LOADS of room for new cities and cultures to be introduced. Oh yeah, and this is a world full of magic. MAGIC. There you go. That's your answer to introducing any new class, race, species, culture, monsters whatever. You could introduce a legion of Bigfoots if you wanted to and say they were transported in through... *gasps* MAGIC!

[Walina]

Malfurus wrote...

I'm sure there are certain parties that may not like Clerics or the lore they play in fantasy history but I for one sure do. Ever after reading The Dragon Lance series with Cysania the cleric and then reading several different work of fiction, while playing games like Ice Wind Dale and BG2, I've just had a thing for those who command the power of light...or darkness through powers bestowed upon them by God/Gods. Shielding my companions from enemy fire or plunging my sword wreathed in darkness into the gut of an approaching Templar kinds of makes for fun play in my humble opinion. So having said that, please please PLEASE Bioware, if you can somehow find lore for a Cleric class in the Orlais Expansion (Considering that is where the Chantry was first started and at its strongest) I would be, including some of the community I'm sure, ever so pleased.

Ideas - Divine Shield: Protects the caster from enemy fire for ten seconds. Cooldown: 30 seconds etc etc...

I can think of awesome powers to wield. For example I see a fireball directed at me, so I summon a shield to protect me and my companions. What does everyone think? And if you can think of a power a cleric in this game could have, post it, would be awesome to see and hear ideas.

I don't care about religion but I would love to have a 100% holy spell user

[Kalduin]

dan107 wrote...

I didn't read the whole thread, but for people who want clerics -- why not just make an arcane warrior/spirit healer mage? The result is a plate wearing melee fighter that can heal. And on top of that you can RP him as a highly religious person who attributes his powers to the maker. Isn't that the exact description of a cleric?

 Indeed, I was thinking the same thing when I saw this thread.

 It seems most of the arguments for are simply demanding a name more so then an actual class 

 It also boggles the mind why anyone would argue with the lead writer on in game story mechanics and lore.

[Loregothe]

I agree it is foolish to argue with the writer of the lore about the lore. Plenty of games with clerics. Go play them. Otherwise, play a mage that can heal and wear armor; already possible.

[Walina]

The feeling is just not the same cause in the story you're a mage not threated like a cleric.

[Kalduin]

Walina wrote...

The feeling is just not the same cause in the story you're a mage not threated like a cleric.

 That goes with the kind of dark mood they were going for though, even as a noble you get treated like a dog

 All in all they were trying to break the mold with this game, and I dare say they exceeded quite well at it.

[DBHolm]

essarr71 wrote...

DBHolm wrote...
"a warrior-priest wielding magic"

So an arcane warrior with a deep loyalty to the chantry? 

Don't fix whats not broke, imo.  I just don't see how you can make a new class without it overlapping two existing specalizations or breaking the setting. 

You are incorrect.

An Arcane Warrior has access to all mage talents. A cleric class should not have, and it should have actual martial abilities, not just a single line of abilities that enable it to walk into melee. 

It is also a specialization, not a class of its own. You do not start the game as an Arcane Warrior.

That ignores the fact that the idea would not exist outside your own imagination, of course. You would have no opportunity to roleplay a cleric at all.

[Valmy]

Rahelron wrote...

I think that the lack of clerics and of divine magic is one of the key features of DAO and I like that. I also like the fact that the chantry is very similar to the real Christian Church so go bioware, keep it up this way.

Yep.

I mean people already complain it is too much like a generic fantasy world.  Let us embrace the parts of it that make it distinctive.

[Wesley Wyndam Price]

Schwapp wrote...


I, personally, believe that you're being a bit short-sighted on this. 

*facepalm*  Oh good lord shut up already.  

Yes...lets just overlap game lore and put in D&D clerics so annoying asperging nerds can have their precious clerics.

[addiction21]

Valmy wrote...

Rahelron wrote...

I think that the lack of clerics and of divine magic is one of the key features of DAO and I like that. I also like the fact that the chantry is very similar to the real Christian Church so go bioware, keep it up this way.

Yep.

I mean people already complain it is too much like a generic fantasy world.  Let us embrace the parts of it that make it distinctive.

Thats just silly. It should be just like every other fantasy world. We need clerics, monks and ninjas. It is just not a fantasy game with out that. While we are at it lets throw a very powerfull mage named Eliminator who travels teh lands helping in the fight against evil.  Throw a DLC in where we travel to a long abadoned dwarf mountain city to fight a great dragon named Smokey.  At the end of each DLC/Expansion there should be a great no holds barred battle that at the last minute humming birds and war kitty cats arrive just in time to save our heroes.

Oh and waffles please.

From what I know the traditional defination for a cleric seems to be a warrior that is empowered by a divine force.

Those thinking of a possibilty off some off shoot religion. How does it happen? Are you thinking it is a offshoot from The Chantry? That would be odd they outright dismiss the most central of their teachings to break. And if they did such a thing why did The Chantry let these newly unlicensed mages go instead of sticking them in the tower or killing them? Also as far as I know if you show magical talent you get put in the tower you do not get to join the chantry or templers so it makes it highly unlikely that a magical user would reach any place of power or respect in those organazations to change them.

This is a fantasy setting but when you get all willy nilly allowing anything to happen in your lore to make your players happy you end up with Space Goats and Furries gone wild.  Gonna stop I am ranting now.

Modifié par addiction21, 07 janvier 2010 - 05:03 .

[BomimoDK]

elminster wasn't made up by bioware just so you know. stop bawwing about what's not there and start apprciation what's in there allready. stupid kids. you always want more or something else than what's giiven to you.

[Kerilus]

Grumpy. There is a "not essentially true" between true and false.