384 réponses à ce sujet

[addiction21]

BomimoDK wrote...

elminster wasn't made up by bioware just so you know. stop bawwing about what's not there and start apprciation what's in there allready. stupid kids. you always want more or something else than what's giiven to you.

Reading comprehension get some. Did you even read past that part before posting?  Ya I am so serious about how upset I am because we do not have kitty cats and waffles.

Honestly before you go trying to crucify someone read their entire post.

[Schneidend]

We should re-title this thread "Being Extremely Rude To David Gaider For No Good Reason." That's really what it's become. I love how, even when the settings' very own "Maker" comes in and says "no clerics" for the very same reasons most of us have been using from this thread's inception, the people demanding clerics insist that we're all somehow ignorant, short-sighted anti-theists.

[addiction21]

Bad joke needed to be deleted.

Modifié par addiction21, 07 janvier 2010 - 05:14 .

[JackDresden]

David Gaider wrote...

Schwapp wrote...
I get that you know why decisions were made and all that, but knowing what can and can't fit into the game world is something that a player can have a fairly educated opinion on, as well. You're arguing there was something other than a plain ol' arbitrary decision made here when you defend the decision by suggesting that the cleric class just couldn't exist in the world as built. When confronted by the bits in the game that seem to confirm the existence of The Maker, you present arguments that would just as easily defend the presence of clerics unassociated with the Chantry as they would defend Andraste's ashes. But you're stubbornly refusing to entertain the idea.

I've entertained the idea as far as I'm willing to, and I've already provided possible ways that a type of cleric class could be incorporated and still fit with the setting. And I think I've pretty clearly stated what won't work in the setting. And now I will take my stubborn, short-sighted self elsewhere. 

And this is the key point David has every right to give you this answer of course all of us players can have an opinion I happen to agree with David Gaider on this it wouldn't work for me either I may not agree on other things. But the point is like the GMs decision in a P&P RPG the writers decision is final. the writers at Bioware created the Dragon Age setting they have the final say as to what works in it and what doesn't.

As players we can give them our opinion but the final say is theirs, David has explained his reasoning of course people can still disagree but ultimatley it won't change anything so I suggests those who must have the D&D cleric class grafted whole sale into Dragon Age contribute to the MOD some of their fellows have started work on rather than going over and over the same argument with the writers about what should and shouldn't be in the world they created.

[adembroski11]

ladydesire wrote...

Vicious wrote...

people get stuck in their ways having played D&D for years many people think any fantasy RPG most cling to all the standard D&D cliches.

e.g. pretty powerful and near immortal elves, clerics granted divine power (and trained in the use of armour) but with these granted powers mostly around healing.

THANK YOU.

Good riddance to small cliche's.

Come to think of it, isn't the Cleric purely a design of D&D (as far as being gifted from an obvious deity), since I don't recall the existence of such a character in Lord of the Rings, unless Lord Elrond was one.

The cleric class, as it was originally concieved in D&D, was meant not to represent Priests with holy power, but in fact a Warrior-Monk in the Templar/Hospitallar mold. Of course, the choice of naming it "cleric" was poor as it was rightfully associated with priesthood, and thus Cleric became synonymous with Priest in D&D games, and D&D developed it's own manor of dealing with religion. Hense, polytheism in a 14th century setting.

The Paladin came along to fill the void that the Cleric was supposed to fill, and so we had two of them.

Personally, I have used and am using the Cleric mod, and it's very well done. Overly well, in fact. it's a bit overpowered.

Gah, can you tell I've been playing the game since the original Unearthed Arcana?

As for a story-fit, I like the one the guy who made it gives. The Chantry monitors the Tower mages for particularly pious folk with talent, and pulls them out, having them trained directly by the templars to become Clerics... a small, elite order within the chantry.

My personal "Lore" goes as thus; Clerics exist, but are generally not know to the public at large. They are an aggressive military order of extremely pious mages who've learned some of the arts of the Arcane Warrior, plus some magics that Mages are generally not taught. Their magic is of the same source as a mage. They are kept thoroughly addicted to Lyrium and low in numbers so as to maintain control of them. They themselves tend to be fine examples of men and women of faith, but their creation was born of Chantry corruption... essencially further enslaving mages for their own purposes.

Or, if you like, perhaps the Ashes can be used in a special ceremony to create Clerics who really do draw upon a divine source. Maybe that's why the place was shut down and it's location hidden by the Chantry.

A couple of feasable rationals for the Cleric if you wanna download the mod. I find the class rather fun, personally. 1-hander and shield warrior + healing magic.

Modifié par adembroski11, 07 janvier 2010 - 05:21 .

[DBHolm]

Schneidend wrote...

We should re-title this thread "Being Extremely Rude To David Gaider For No Good Reason." That's really what it's become. I love how, even when the settings' very own "Maker" comes in and says "no clerics" for the very same reasons most of us have been using from this thread's inception, the people demanding clerics insist that we're all somehow ignorant, short-sighted anti-theists.

Because one person on the opposing side of an argument being rude to one person on your side of the argument justifies you being rude to the entire opposing side, right?

[JackDresden]

while we're on the subject I once played a really good game....um Mass...effect I think it was. Anyway there was something that would fit really well into Dragon Age, Biotics I think it was called, there where these people who could manipulate forces through mass effect fields.



Some may say that that was a totally different setting and even genre...barrr what do they know what if a really powerful spirit opened a time space rift to the mass effect universe and my character fell through...that would clearly mean biotics would work in Dragon Age.



Oh and there was this thing in a film I watched once....the Force they called it and there where these people who could manipulate it, Jedi and Sith I think, I demand both Jedi and Sith are also added to dragon age as character classes at once....anyone who thinks the won't fit just doesn't understand my point and is clearly wrong even if it's one of the creators of Dragon Age what do they know about there own setting anyway...



;-)

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

Someone has a very, very sad hang up with clerics. Is it their pretty man-dress that you guys want to wear? Just go to Macy's, guys. :-)



Could the lore support clerics? It would have to be twisted into something it isn't. If you are a bigger fan of clerics than you are of DAO... go play something with clerics.

[Erakleitos]

I have to say that one thing i really like is how religion is conceived in DA:O. For one simple reason: the lack of any divine power introduces the presence of faith (remember the subquest in Redcliffe when you have to convince the revered mother to bless the knights?).

If you have the faith concept then there can be atheists, like Morrigan, and so you can have all the interesting dialogues about faith between Leliana and Morrigan, for instance. This makes the DA:O setting far more interesting and deeper than the forgotten realms one (imho).

Let's not forget about what the chantry says: "the maker is gone", that's why Brother Genitivi is being treated like an apostate by the chantry, in his quest for the ashes. That remembers me the baroque period, when God "disappears" and suddenly people are on their own, starting to fear death .
In the DA:O world religion is religion, and magic it's something which is strongly related to what we call science in our world... isn't it way more interesting than a world where there is no doubt and all like Forgotten Realms? So why ruining it with a cleric class?

Modifié par Erakleitos, 07 janvier 2010 - 05:36 .

[adembroski11]

Erakleitos wrote...

I have to say that one thing i really like is how religion is conceived in DA:O. For one simple reason: the lack of any divine power introduces the presence of faith (remember the subquest in Redcliffe when you have to convince the revered mother to bless the knights?).

If you have the faith concept then there can be atheists, like Morrigan, and so you can have all the interesting dialogues about faith between Leliana and Morrigan, for instance. This makes the DA:O setting far more interesting and deeper than the forgotten realms one (imho).

The trouble here is that your accepting the atheist's definition of faith. Theological Faith isn't about believing in something that you have no proof of... the vast majority of faithful Christians believe they see proof of their God every day. Faith in God is similar to the faith my 7 year old boy has in me and his mother. It's not about existance, but trust. And that dynamic can exist with or without proof of the divine.

The Dragonlance Legends trilogy, which has been referenced in this thread, deals directly with a cleric's crisis of faith. She herself is a cleric, capable of using divine magic, yet her faith is tested throughout that series very believably. It's a damn fine series, and Crystania's journey is a big part of it.

Modifié par adembroski11, 07 janvier 2010 - 05:53 .

[Iris562]

Amg! It's Bioware's game sheesh! If they say Clerics won't fit, give you people reasons WHY it won't fit, even tell you how it possibly COULD fit, and still say it wouldn't work in THEIR setting... that usually means, "It won't work, I'm sorry."



I mean wow, in other games the Dev's never took the time to talk to us this much, quit abusing it by thinking you know more about their game than they do. Yes, feedback and suggestions are great, but if they say "no" to something 40 different ways, then it means "No."



>_>

[TheGreenLion]

Alrighty well what we're after is not a Cleric (it comes from classic rpg based on the fact that, like Mr. Gaider said, they have holy powers from somewhere. But, the Maker isn't tossing around magical favors.)



We seem to be after this: A hybrid of warrior and mage with what I would call support/utility spells with maybe a couple offensive tricks and also some warrior style things. Maybe mix the Sword and Board tree with the warrior tree, just like one tree of spells, say the Creation tree mixed with some things out of....Spirit tree maybe? But they can't be called anything like Clerics/Paladins/Priests/Monks/Crusaders...cause they're religion based/don't fit the lore/and are redundant.



What you want is not an Arcane Warrior, you want them to fight better, to have physical defenses and attacks but you'd have to compromise for less magical power. This probably means highly disciplined individuals as they attend to magical and physical prowess probably in equal shares as opposed to mages and warriors being one extreme or the other. This reminds me most of Shaolin monks who would wear armor and cast spells. Armor was intended to offer higher physical protection than skin at the expense of mobility. Most weapons still got through armor, but it made the wounds less severe and you might just survive something that would have been fatal otherwise.



Obviously they would be people like the ones we find in Haven, pretty much unaffected by the outside world at large and not holding the same Chantry vs. Magi grudges. They would all be apostates in a sense and either well hidden from the world or powerful enough to handle any Templars or Mages seeking to assimilate them.



What would we call their source of power? I'll throw out an idea, how about Discipline...channeling both stamina and mana for their use in either physical or magical endeavors thus negating the need for two bars for both sources of power.



What would they be called? That's pretty much the whole of this debate...what would highly disciplined and both physically and magically inclined warrior mages call themselves? That's where I get stumped. Do we call them by faction or an order (unique such as the Grey Wardens)? Or do we call them by what they are i.e. Warrior Magi?



That's my ideas on it anyway, feel free to agree or disagree....I feel I've tried to find a middle ground without impacting the lore and all that too heavily.

[Iris562]

In my veiw, TheGreenLion, what it seems like you want is a Healing class that won't get eaten alive in melee combat, with some buffs. I can understand that, as I tried making my mage like that; but I think Bioware's statement on why they don't want that in the game is valid too - it would essentially be a mage tank. I mean, even on the Mod site where they have a cleric, they say its meant to be played on Hard/Nightmare difficulty, because of the gross Overpowered nature of the class itself. Just my 2 cents though.

Edit: In actuality you'd have a tank that could heal himself. xD

Modifié par Iris562, 07 janvier 2010 - 06:18 .

[TheGreenLion]

Not neccesarily, you could always take out the healing from a hybrid class and leave just the stamina/mana regen abilities (you could even take those out too I spose). It'd be really hard to balance I understand as you'd have to essentially make them less useful than a mage or a warrior on their own and if you paired em with a mage as well you'd basically never have to use injury kits cause ya probably wouldn't die. Then again just putting a mage in your group nearly guarantees that death will be less likely in any case. Either way I'm pretty happy the way things are and fortunately modders have the tools and power to make things such as clerics for those who'd like another choice of class somewhere between the physical and magical.

[The Capital Gaultier]

Taura-Tierno wrote...

Isn't what some people talk about, priests with mage-powers believing themselves to have god-given powers, more of a plot-device than an actual class? A group of priests who practice magic, but believe it to be divine powers? Sounds more like something encountered during a quest or in a new part of the world (possibly as some new specialization), rather than a new class.

Believing in god-given powers probably would not work in Thedas.  As evidenced numerous times in the story, Andraste is held to be special.  Others who claim to have god-given powers are disbelieved and ridiculed.  I'm all for an order of Clerics whom cast magic, but it won't be of any claimed divinity.  I think it would be perfectly fine if they were more like enlightened church members who use the "science" of Thedas to further the Chantry's goals.

[booke63]

Ok, this thread is a bit worn out, but I enjoyed it. Some lousy arguments, some good ones too, no real flames, some whining, some irony, some sarcasm, and some input from Bioware even!

But really....

Bioware David asserts that the magic of the archetype cleric (ala DnD) IS holy power and IS given to the cleric directly from his/her god. He states that NO being of such stature is giving holy power to anyone in DA:O. He's explaining the natural and supernatural nature of the world.

Thus, no cleric as defined by Bioware David could possibly exist in the game.

The only real ground for argument here is the DnD definition of a cleric, and once you choose a different definition of a cleric and remove god and holy power...EVERYONE agrees that you could make a class that has melee talent and magic spells, and even better if they don't overlap warrior and mage talents/spells too much--and aren't too overpowered in the end.

Soooooooo what exactly are we debating here?

Thanks

Modifié par booke63, 07 janvier 2010 - 08:36 .

[addiction21]

booke63 wrote...


Soooooooo what exactly are we debating here?

Thanks

Waffles vs Everything else

I chose waffles

[booke63]

addiction21 wrote...

booke63 wrote...


Soooooooo what exactly are we debating here?

Thanks

Waffles vs Everything else

I chose waffles

Dang...I missed the whole point obivously   Every have pumpkin waffles with an apple cider syrup?  Mmmmm

[addiction21]

booke63 wrote...

addiction21 wrote...

booke63 wrote...


Soooooooo what exactly are we debating here?

Thanks

Waffles vs Everything else

I chose waffles

Dang...I missed the whole point obivously   Every have pumpkin waffles with an apple cider syrup?  Mmmmm

Hmmmm sounds good gonna have to try that.

Really tho to my eyes it seems that one side wants that classical defination of a cleric. A holy fighter wielding divine (or divine looking) powers at whatever the cost is to the setting and the world.
The other side seems to be that it would have to twist or distort what we allready have to make it fit in a way the "cleric wanters" want it implemented.

Something like that and not everyone will fit into there nor agree with how I view the thread.

[Wozearly]

Iris - if Bioware didn't want us to have self-healing Mage tanks, then why did they allow us to mix and match the Arcane Warrior and Spirit Healer specialisations?



Equally, I expect Arcane Warrior / Blood Mage would also make a nice self-healing tank, whose heavy helmet would be handy to help block out the screams of his allies due to his, ehm, 'unconventional' methods of self-healing

[JaegerBane]

Schwapp wrote...
There is an admittedly crazy sect that has a man as its leader of the faith and believes some other wild things, but an off-shoot of the faith that has their clergy practicing magic that they claim to be holy just brings the game world crashing down around the player?

I do get that the stam/mana bar concern, but all the previous hangups about the possibility of clerics have hinged on the world-building concerns, not game mechanics. 

Schwapp, ignoring the fact that you've reached the point where you're calling the very author of the setting 'short-sighted', I really can't figure out what your deal is on this issue.

What you've just described above would not be Clerics. You may have an off-shoot of the chantry where the clergy cast spells but these would be Mages. End of story. It doesn't 'bring the world crashing down on the player', it just means that the Cleric class as you appear to be constantly asking for is just a mage. 

[Valcutio]

JaegerBane wrote...

What you've just described above would not be Clerics. You may have an off-shoot of the chantry where the clergy cast spells but these would be Mages. End of story. It doesn't 'bring the world crashing down on the player', it just means that the Cleric class as you appear to be constantly asking for is just a mage. 

And "mages" as you call them are just humans who can cast spells. Mages don't exist - it's just a word for people who are specially trained in the arts of magic. Kinda like... *gasps* Paladins! (or clerics, whichever).

[Valcutio]

And for anybody arguing against the idea of bringing Paladins into Dragon Age because it's not part of the lore... If a game world has elves, dwarves, mages, dragons etc. etc. and the idea of a Paladin seems silly to you than... well, I'm not sure what to say to that. This game world borrows HEAVILY from other fantasy sources. We're not talking science fiction or something so radically different here. We're talking a class that makes sense in the world.

[ArathWoeeye]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...
Believing in god-given powers probably would not work in Thedas.  As evidenced numerous times in the story, Andraste is held to be special.  Others who claim to have god-given powers are disbelieved and ridiculed.  I'm all for an order of Clerics whom cast magic, but it won't be of any claimed divinity.  I think it would be perfectly fine if they were more like enlightened church members who use the "science" of Thedas to further the Chantry's goals.

I disagree. I think you miss the point that faith is about believing. People believe in Gods. People believe in Fate. People believe in Luck. It doesn't mean they have to exist or it doesn't mean associated actions can not be explained otherwise.

If some people say they cast spells thanks to Maker, how can you say it's not true? As I said somewhere (in this topic I think) it's possible to look at it this way: 
I may have ACCESS to magic powers. But actually USING them? That's something else. I may believe that it's Maker's will and my faith that allows me to use the powers. It doesn't matter if it actually works that way, as far as I would be concerned, I would be a faith-driven caster.

To some other points in the topic:
-I completely disagree that "a fantasy world can't exist without clerics". Yes, it can. A fantasy world isn't about containing dragons. It's not about wizards. It's not about the length of elf ears or dwarven beards. You may like the concept (I do myself) but it's far from being essential to be called a fantasy world.

-Paladins doesn't fit. It's completely senseless to say "Oh dude, we got dragons and magic and stuff, paladins would fit in too!". It doesn't work that way. Paladins are the extreme "good" side that fights against the evil side. However, Dragon Age world is not about good vs evil. Not at all. Dwarves and humans have political fights, totally on gray area. Elves don't even have politics. Mages and chantry are hardly good and evil. Demons' temptation does not make one "evil". If you stay as human, you just become a human with vile powers. You aren't "evil" in your heart in a DnD sense. Doing vile stuff is not being evil in heart (again, in a dnd sense). The only evil in this world would be darkspawn (whose motives are still clouded) and demons. Demons aren't a too active force except for mage temptation though and against darkspawn we got Wardens. So closest thing you get to a paladin is a Grey Warden and that's all it can be. 

That being said, discussions can go on forever with all sides making sense. This is because we are mostly thinking in D&D sense, which was the main RPG stream so far. But this is not D&D. Dragon Age Dragons aren't D&D Dragons. Faith isn't D&D faith. Neither are races, the world concept, the setting.. Nothing is same really. Most of the content that Dragon Age "borrows" from fantasy is mostly just the names. If you actually look at the concepts, they are very different from our D&D (I'm not saying they weren't encountered in any fantasy novels or worlds, I'm talking about D&D)

[royen1]

Valcutio wrote...

And for anybody arguing against the idea of bringing Paladins into Dragon Age because it's not part of the lore... If a game world has elves, dwarves, mages, dragons etc. etc. and the idea of a Paladin seems silly to you than... well, I'm not sure what to say to that. This game world borrows HEAVILY from other fantasy sources. We're not talking science fiction or something so radically different here. We're talking a class that makes sense in the world.

... Which is why we have the Templar specialisation.

(Or is my sarcasm detector out of alignment?)