384 réponses à ce sujet

[ArathWoeeye]

I may have a sarcasm problem too, but templar is not paladin. They are very different concepts.

[aaniadyen]

Why no clerics? For the same reason we have no Red Wizards of Thay. The end.

[royen1]

No, templars and paladins are not all that different.

[MiG-77]

As has been stated many times Cleric dont fit in Dragon Age world as "divine caster" . It could be made as mage speciality (as only mages can use magic) like Arcane Warrior and Spirit Healer is (Which basically would just be combination of those two...).
 
Lore point of view they could be just a circle mages that Chantry picks up (like Templars) and trains to fight with heavy armor and fight against other mages and heal/help Templars.

Modifié par MiG-77, 08 janvier 2010 - 05:51 .

[Iris562]

Wozearly wrote...

Iris - if Bioware didn't want us to have self-healing Mage tanks, then why did they allow us to mix and match the Arcane Warrior and Spirit Healer specialisations?

Because to be an Arcane Warrior effectively, you take on a 50% Fatigue Penalty. Have fun Healing with THAT! xD You can get off, what? 3 Heals maybe at end game without drinking Lyrium? What people want from a Cleric class is basically a Warrior/Spirit Healer that doesn't incur said 50% fatigue penalty. Which is absolutely ludacrus. That's not a Cleric, that's a Mage Tank.

[addiction21]

Valcutio wrote...


And "mages" as you call them are just humans who can cast spells. Mages don't exist - it's just a word for people who are specially trained in the arts of magic. Kinda like... *gasps* Paladins! (or clerics, whichever).

Except those Paldins and clerics are empowered by a divine source not magic. Its not magic it is divine power granted by the good gods.

Valcutio wrote...

And for anybody arguing against the idea of bringing Paladins into Dragon Age because it's not part of the lore... If a game world has elves, dwarves, mages, dragons etc. etc. and the idea of a Paladin seems silly to you than... well, I'm not sure what to say to that. This game world borrows HEAVILY from other fantasy sources. We're not talking science fiction or something so radically different here. We're talking a class that makes sense in the world.

So because it has fantasy stamped on it means that it must have everything else fantasy worlds have and screw the allready established lore?  Look at WoW with its space goats, furries and pulling dead characters out of the void so people have something to kill in that new super cool raid.  Sure it is their choice to change (butcher) their own lore but it does not make it a good idea.

Its odd how you state that it is "borrowing HEAVILY" like it is a bad thing and want them to still "borrow" more.

Modifié par addiction21, 08 janvier 2010 - 06:32 .

[The Capital Gaultier]

ArathWoeeye wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...
Believing in god-given powers probably would not work in Thedas.  As evidenced numerous times in the story, Andraste is held to be special.  Others who claim to have god-given powers are disbelieved and ridiculed.  I'm all for an order of Clerics whom cast magic, but it won't be of any claimed divinity.  I think it would be perfectly fine if they were more like enlightened church members who use the "science" of Thedas to further the Chantry's goals.

I disagree. I think you miss the point that faith is about believing. People believe in Gods. People believe in Fate. People believe in Luck. It doesn't mean they have to exist or it doesn't mean associated actions can not be explained otherwise.

If some people say they cast spells thanks to Maker, how can you say it's not true? As I said somewhere (in this topic I think) it's possible to look at it this way: 
I may have ACCESS to magic powers. But actually USING them? That's something else. I may believe that it's Maker's will and my faith that allows me to use the powers. It doesn't matter if it actually works that way, as far as I would be concerned, I would be a faith-driven caster.

I'm not saying it'snot possible - just that people are ridiculed for claiming a special relationship with the Maker.

[addiction21]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

ArathWoeeye wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...
Believing in god-given powers probably would not work in Thedas.  As evidenced numerous times in the story, Andraste is held to be special.  Others who claim to have god-given powers are disbelieved and ridiculed.  I'm all for an order of Clerics whom cast magic, but it won't be of any claimed divinity.  I think it would be perfectly fine if they were more like enlightened church members who use the "science" of Thedas to further the Chantry's goals.

I disagree. I think you miss the point that faith is about believing. People believe in Gods. People believe in Fate. People believe in Luck. It doesn't mean they have to exist or it doesn't mean associated actions can not be explained otherwise.

If some people say they cast spells thanks to Maker, how can you say it's not true? As I said somewhere (in this topic I think) it's possible to look at it this way: 
I may have ACCESS to magic powers. But actually USING them? That's something else. I may believe that it's Maker's will and my faith that allows me to use the powers. It doesn't matter if it actually works that way, as far as I would be concerned, I would be a faith-driven caster.

I'm not saying it'snot possible - just that people are ridiculed for claiming a special relationship with the Maker.

And the chantry's stance is that the maker is gone so what do you think would happen if some small sect comes out wielding "divine power" that they say stems from the maker?  I personally think they would get a house call from the templers and not the "we brought you a house warming basket" type of visit.

[Iris562]

addiction21 wrote...

Valcutio wrote...


And "mages" as you call them are just humans who can cast spells. Mages don't exist - it's just a word for people who are specially trained in the arts of magic. Kinda like... *gasps* Paladins! (or clerics, whichever).

Except those Paldins and clerics are empowered by a divine source not magic. Its not magic it is divine power granted by the good gods.

Valcutio wrote...

And for anybody arguing against the idea of bringing Paladins into Dragon Age because it's not part of the lore... If a game world has elves, dwarves, mages, dragons etc. etc. and the idea of a Paladin seems silly to you than... well, I'm not sure what to say to that. This game world borrows HEAVILY from other fantasy sources. We're not talking science fiction or something so radically different here. We're talking a class that makes sense in the world.

So because it has fantasy stamped on it means that it must have everything else fantasy worlds have and screw the allready established lore?  Look at WoW with its space goats, furries and pulling dead characters out of the void so people have something to kill in that new super cool raid.  Sure it is their choice to change (butcher) their own lore but it does not make it a good idea.

Its odd how you state that it is "borrowing HEAVILY" like it is a bad thing and want them to still "borrow" more.

You forgot the russian accented blue demons of doom with hoofs of fury the alliance had xD

[addiction21]

Iris562 wrote...


You forgot the russian accented blue demons of doom with hoofs of fury the alliance had xD

Nu uh those are the space goats. Even tho when you look at the lore for them with a objective eye there was no space travel. But that is what happens when you begin to twist the lore in a way to make anything possible and to please some players.

[Iris562]

addiction21 wrote...

Iris562 wrote...


You forgot the russian accented blue demons of doom with hoofs of fury the alliance had xD

Nu uh those are the space goats. Even tho when you look at the lore for them with a objective eye there was no space travel. But that is what happens when you begin to twist the lore in a way to make anything possible and to please some players.

I still don't understand how Tauren are a major race. You'd think that by now the Orcs would have opened a McBloodhoof serving Happy Veals. xD

[addiction21]

Iris562 wrote...

addiction21 wrote...

Iris562 wrote...


You forgot the russian accented blue demons of doom with hoofs of fury the alliance had xD

Nu uh those are the space goats. Even tho when you look at the lore for them with a objective eye there was no space travel. But that is what happens when you begin to twist the lore in a way to make anything possible and to please some players.

I still don't understand how Tauren are a major race. You'd think that by now the Orcs would have opened a McBloodhoof serving Happy Veals. xD

http://www.worldofwa...cs/2006-05.html but lets try to keep this on topic.

I do not get why we can not have night elfs. Feralden has elves and nights soooo.....

[ArathWoeeye]

royen1 wrote...

No, templars and paladins are not all that different.

They -are- very different. Templars are warriors trained for hunting  and controlling mages. Their powers come from lyrium-feeding. Paladins are religious characters that have strict code of honor and goodness. Their powers come from the gods they believe. The concept is totally different. The ideals are different. Code of conduct is different. The source of classes is different. They aren't similar at all, except for wearing armor and being self-righteous. 

[Barrendall]

I think I would only be interested in a confirmed healing class if they expanded the group size to at least five, and buff up the mobs and bosses considerably. It's enough as it is that I can't have all my favorite npc's together. (For their party interaction)

[Quillmaster]

aaniadyen wrote...

Why no clerics? For the same reason we have no Red Wizards of Thay. The end.

That made me laugh.

I think people do miss the point that this has its own mythology, and besides, it doesn't really matter as a healing mage fills the same role anyway.

[Iris562]

I wouldn't be against releasing a alternate Mage class that has 0 offense spells and only heal spells, expanding on the heal spells and adding more, such as expanded bard buffs and shields. They could be White Mages; but the idea of having a "Mage" class able to use melee offensive abilites without incurring the 50% fatigue penalty from Arcane Warrior is too overpowered and far-fetched to even be considered as a viable class. If you really want that, download the Cleric Mod and give yourself instant kill cheats... It would be the same as what this topic seems to ask for.

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

Iris562 wrote...

If you really want that, download the Cleric Mod and give yourself instant kill cheats... It would be the same as what this topic seems to ask for.

You seem to have a severe reading comprehension problem. It would be wise for you to seek a tutor for that.  People who have said they would like to see a cleric have said they don't want an imbalanced class and thet the cleric mod is imbalanced.
'
ON THE OTHER HAND, MOST PEOPLE SAY THE ARCANE WARRIOR IS OVERPOWERED AND THAT MAGES IN GENERAL ARE OVERPOWERED.

But some people seem to lack the skill to play any class that can't nuke the world, heal himself, and control crowds.

Oh, and as far as I can see a two handed dwarf templar champion is overpowered because mine is stomping everything in his Nightmare solo game. 90%+ spell resistance, good armor, and crowd control. Immune to knockdowns, stuns, and spells. Yumm ymmm.

I haven't played a solo rogues yet, but I'm quite certain based on my partied rouge that playing a dual dagger rogue in a solo NM game wold be quite easy also.

So, you were saying about overpoweredness?

Now, like I've said after David posted, he has made it pretty clear Bioware won't be doint a  cleric class. I personally think giving healing to mages was very overpowering , but hey, that was their decision to make and they seem to have staked that out as unchangable. Too bad,

[royen1]

ArathWoeeye wrote...

They -are- very different. Templars are warriors trained for hunting  and controlling mages. Their powers come from lyrium-feeding. Paladins are religious characters that have strict code of honor and goodness. Their powers come from the gods they believe. The concept is totally different. The ideals are different. Code of conduct is different. The source of classes is different. They aren't similar at all, except for wearing armor and being self-righteous. 

Okay, bear with me...

- Both templars and paladins are the military branch of their particular faiths. The foremost purpose of both is to fight and defend against what their particular faith considers to be evil, which in the case of the Chantry is magic and in the case of DnD-style paladins anything that happens to have been arbitrarily assigned to the Evil-part of the moral spectrum.

- I'm toeing the spoiler-line here, but some doubt that lyrium does anything for a templar's power, and that it is rather used for its addictive properties to control the templars (the lyrium trade is strictly controlled by the Chantry).

- The whole paladins-are-good-business is a DnD-trope which makes little enough sense in DnD and would make even less sense in DAO with it's black-and-grey morality. Now, both paladins and templars are inspired mainly by the military orders of the Christian church in the middle ages. The difference is essentially that Bioware has a less romantic view of the Knights Templar, Knights Hospitaller, et al. than Gary Gygax.

- Yeah, paladins do get their powers from the gods they worship. Do I have to explain why this is not relevant? Did you not read at least some of the thread? Let's put it this way: People will have stopped arguing about the minutiae of fictional religions on the internet before we have classes with god-given powers in DA.

Consequently, if we take the paladin class from DnD and throw out all the stuff that doesn't work in the DA:O setting, what we get is -- ta-dah! -- a templar.

[addiction21]

I would pay for a delete function on these forums...

Modifié par addiction21, 08 janvier 2010 - 10:14 .

[Schneidend]

Iris562 wrote...

Because to be an Arcane Warrior effectively, you take on a 50% Fatigue Penalty. Have fun Healing with THAT! xD You can get off, what? 3 Heals maybe at end game without drinking Lyrium? What people want from a Cleric class is basically a Warrior/Spirit Healer that doesn't incur said 50% fatigue penalty. Which is absolutely ludacrus. That's not a Cleric, that's a Mage Tank.

Then you clearly don't understand how to effectively play the combo. You don't need the AW's sustained ability active to wear armor or carry swords or axes. Did it not occur to you to simply turn off sustained abilities when you don't need them?

Mage/AW/Spirit Healer is the closes an unmodded game will get to a Cleric, and it's pretty damn powerful as-is if you use it correctly.

[Faffnr]

Why can't people understand the game world lore, even with Gaider himself trying his best to explain it? He was the main author/creator of Thedas, and aka "The Maker."

[addiction21]

Faffnr wrote...

Why can't people understand the game world lore, even with Gaider himself trying his best to explain it? He was the main author/creator of Thedas, and aka "The Maker."

Ever tell someone no but they continue to ask the same question? Same thing. Some people can not  take a no for an answer.

Modifié par addiction21, 08 janvier 2010 - 11:52 .

[ArathWoeeye]

*deletes a long, needless post*
I was just saying that the D&D paladins as they are wouldn't fit in just becouse there are fantasy related stuff in the world.
Are templars close to paladins in Da:o sense? Yes, they are, I agree that too.

Modifié par ArathWoeeye, 08 janvier 2010 - 11:56 .

[Tsumoro]

Why oh why do you need clerics? You get ample healing abilities through character abilities, including yourself should you roll that way. Not to mention there are ample potions and materials to create your own.



I find peoples consistent need for clerics is nothing more than a guise to say 'I want a more easier time hacking and slashing and less time on the thinking'.



If you are able to complete the game as it stands, then coodles to you. If you want replay value tying different classes such as a...cleric. There are mods available to you, if there's not one to meet your specific needs.. then make one.



I am one for believing that the game as it stands does not have a cleric in it's lore base. All magic is all deemed naughty and those that can cast magic get access to it. For those whom say that a cleric would work well with a chantry member, or priest, zealot of the maker. Then you need to study the lore more... The whole point about the 'maker' is more a 'does he - doesn't he' exist kinda thing and I believe the direction that the game is going, with expansion and DLC we will eventually have those answer we seek.

[The Capital Gaultier]

Tsumoro wrote...
I am one for believing that the game as it stands does not have a cleric in it's lore base. All magic is all deemed naughty and those that can cast magic get access to it. For those whom say that a cleric would work well with a chantry member, or priest, zealot of the maker. Then you need to study the lore more...

You need to take your own advice.  Magic is not "naughty."  It's dangerous.  The Chantry sees it as a tool, and a valuable one that they must exercise strict control over.  By their own design, the Chantry and magic are close to inseparable in Ferelden.