384 réponses à ce sujet

[Iris562]

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...

Iris562 wrote...

If you really want that, download the Cleric Mod and give yourself instant kill cheats... It would be the same as what this topic seems to ask for.

You seem to have a severe reading comprehension problem. It would be wise for you to seek a tutor for that.  People who have said they would like to see a cleric have said they don't want an imbalanced class and thet the cleric mod is imbalanced.
'
ON THE OTHER HAND, MOST PEOPLE SAY THE ARCANE WARRIOR IS OVERPOWERED AND THAT MAGES IN GENERAL ARE OVERPOWERED.

But some people seem to lack the skill to play any class that can't nuke the world, heal himself, and control crowds.

Oh, and as far as I can see a two handed dwarf templar champion is overpowered because mine is stomping everything in his Nightmare solo game. 90%+ spell resistance, good armor, and crowd control. Immune to knockdowns, stuns, and spells. Yumm ymmm.

I haven't played a solo rogues yet, but I'm quite certain based on my partied rouge that playing a dual dagger rogue in a solo NM game wold be quite easy also.

So, you were saying about overpoweredness?

Now, like I've said after David posted, he has made it pretty clear Bioware won't be doint a  cleric class. I personally think giving healing to mages was very overpowering , but hey, that was their decision to make and they seem to have staked that out as unchangable. Too bad,

Oh? And how is having a Cleric in the game, drawing divine magic from a non-existant deity, running around without any penalties to fatigue whatsoever not Overpowered? Furthermore, it is an opinion by me, in no way was it fact. Yes, I know people have stated that they don't want an OP Cleric; on the other hand, from some posts other people seem to want exactly that. Now, why don't you be a good Grumpy Wizard, and try not to be so condescending to people when they state observations, hmm? 

And, as a response to solo rogues being "OP". Yes, in the hands of a experienced player, they are easy. Can they run head first into a full on mob and survive? Probably not, especially if there is a mage in said mob, which eat through rogues quite well. But that begs to question, couldn't all classes be OP in the hands of an experienced player? Yes. Are they innately OP? No. Would a Cleric, with no penalties wielding both Healing Spells, and Melee skills, drawing from one stamina/mana pool, bringing down judgement to the heathens who blaspheme their god(s) be Overpowered? Yes, yes they would. That is why I sarcasticly suggested the Mod, but that seems to have gone right over your head, right into the "He must be Serious" category. Thank you, sir; this has been an elightening conversation.

Good day! 

[The Capital Gaultier]

Iris562 wrote...

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...

Iris562 wrote...

If you really want that, download the Cleric Mod and give yourself instant kill cheats... It would be the same as what this topic seems to ask for.

You seem to have a severe reading comprehension problem. It would be wise for you to seek a tutor for that.  People who have said they would like to see a cleric have said they don't want an imbalanced class and thet the cleric mod is imbalanced.
'
ON THE OTHER HAND, MOST PEOPLE SAY THE ARCANE WARRIOR IS OVERPOWERED AND THAT MAGES IN GENERAL ARE OVERPOWERED.

But some people seem to lack the skill to play any class that can't nuke the world, heal himself, and control crowds.

Oh, and as far as I can see a two handed dwarf templar champion is overpowered because mine is stomping everything in his Nightmare solo game. 90%+ spell resistance, good armor, and crowd control. Immune to knockdowns, stuns, and spells. Yumm ymmm.

I haven't played a solo rogues yet, but I'm quite certain based on my partied rouge that playing a dual dagger rogue in a solo NM game wold be quite easy also.

So, you were saying about overpoweredness?

Now, like I've said after David posted, he has made it pretty clear Bioware won't be doint a  cleric class. I personally think giving healing to mages was very overpowering , but hey, that was their decision to make and they seem to have staked that out as unchangable. Too bad,

Oh? And how is having a Cleric in the game, drawing divine magic from a non-existant deity, running around without any penalties to fatigue whatsoever not Overpowered? Furthermore, it is an opinion by me, in no way was it fact. Yes, I know people have stated that they don't want an OP Cleric; on the other hand, from some posts other people seem to want exactly that. Now, why don't you be a good Grumpy Wizard, and try not to be so condescending to people when they state observations, hmm? 

And, as a response to solo rogues being "OP". Yes, in the hands of a experienced player, they are easy. Can they run head first into a full on mob and survive? Probably not, especially if there is a mage in said mob, which eat through rogues quite well. But that begs to question, couldn't all classes be OP in the hands of an experienced player? Yes. Are they innately OP? No. Would a Cleric, with no penalties wielding both Healing Spells, and Melee skills, drawing from one stamina/mana pool, bringing down judgement to the heathens who blaspheme their god(s) be Overpowered? Yes, yes they would. That is why I sarcasticly suggested the Mod, but that seems to have gone right over your head, right into the "He must be Serious" category. Thank you, sir; this has been an elightening conversation.

Good day! 

You are pretty thick if you believe those assumptions.

[Iris562]

Schneidend wrote...

Iris562 wrote...

Because to be an Arcane Warrior effectively, you take on a 50% Fatigue Penalty. Have fun Healing with THAT! xD You can get off, what? 3 Heals maybe at end game without drinking Lyrium? What people want from a Cleric class is basically a Warrior/Spirit Healer that doesn't incur said 50% fatigue penalty. Which is absolutely ludacrus. That's not a Cleric, that's a Mage Tank.

Then you clearly don't understand how to effectively play the combo. You don't need the AW's sustained ability active to wear armor or carry swords or axes. Did it not occur to you to simply turn off sustained abilities when you don't need them?

Mage/AW/Spirit Healer is the closes an unmodded game will get to a Cleric, and it's pretty damn powerful as-is if you use it correctly.

You said it right there, you would turn off the ability. There would be an albeit short CD, some mana penalty after reactivating it, but still, a penalty. What I was eluding to was that a Cleric who could do what an Arcane Warrior does without having to go through clicking an ability on/off to use weapons or spells, well that is, as David Gaider said, a Mage Tank.

[Iris562]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

Iris562 wrote...

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...

Iris562 wrote...

If you really want that, download the Cleric Mod and give yourself instant kill cheats... It would be the same as what this topic seems to ask for.

You seem to have a severe reading comprehension problem. It would be wise for you to seek a tutor for that.  People who have said they would like to see a cleric have said they don't want an imbalanced class and thet the cleric mod is imbalanced.
'
ON THE OTHER HAND, MOST PEOPLE SAY THE ARCANE WARRIOR IS OVERPOWERED AND THAT MAGES IN GENERAL ARE OVERPOWERED.

But some people seem to lack the skill to play any class that can't nuke the world, heal himself, and control crowds.

Oh, and as far as I can see a two handed dwarf templar champion is overpowered because mine is stomping everything in his Nightmare solo game. 90%+ spell resistance, good armor, and crowd control. Immune to knockdowns, stuns, and spells. Yumm ymmm.

I haven't played a solo rogues yet, but I'm quite certain based on my partied rouge that playing a dual dagger rogue in a solo NM game wold be quite easy also.

So, you were saying about overpoweredness?

Now, like I've said after David posted, he has made it pretty clear Bioware won't be doint a  cleric class. I personally think giving healing to mages was very overpowering , but hey, that was their decision to make and they seem to have staked that out as unchangable. Too bad,

Oh? And how is having a Cleric in the game, drawing divine magic from a non-existant deity, running around without any penalties to fatigue whatsoever not Overpowered? Furthermore, it is an opinion by me, in no way was it fact. Yes, I know people have stated that they don't want an OP Cleric; on the other hand, from some posts other people seem to want exactly that. Now, why don't you be a good Grumpy Wizard, and try not to be so condescending to people when they state observations, hmm? 

And, as a response to solo rogues being "OP". Yes, in the hands of a experienced player, they are easy. Can they run head first into a full on mob and survive? Probably not, especially if there is a mage in said mob, which eat through rogues quite well. But that begs to question, couldn't all classes be OP in the hands of an experienced player? Yes. Are they innately OP? No. Would a Cleric, with no penalties wielding both Healing Spells, and Melee skills, drawing from one stamina/mana pool, bringing down judgement to the heathens who blaspheme their god(s) be Overpowered? Yes, yes they would. That is why I sarcasticly suggested the Mod, but that seems to have gone right over your head, right into the "He must be Serious" category. Thank you, sir; this has been an elightening conversation.

Good day! 

You are pretty thick if you believe those assumptions.

I could be, who knows? After all, they are assumptions, not fact. I could be entirely wrong in every sense of the word; again, who knows? They are just opinions, not slated facts, so do with them as you will. Instead of replying with a witty one liner, you could have come up with a theory as to why Clerics should/shouldn't be in the game; that's what this topic is about right? Or not, I don't know anymore. I could also be a figment of your imagination! But, again, argueing with someone's opinion does nothing. Oh well.

[The Capital Gaultier]

Iris562 wrote...

I could be, who knows? After all, they are assumptions, not fact. I could be entirely wrong in every sense of the word; again, who knows? They are just opinions, not slated facts, so do with them as you will. Instead of replying with a witty one liner, you could have come up with a theory as to why Clerics should/shouldn't be in the game; that's what this topic is about right? Or not, I don't know anymore. I could also be a figment of your imagination! But, again, argueing with someone's opinion does nothing. Oh well.

I've stated my position frequently.  My point is that the assumptions you made are so very large that you don't even have a basis for your conclusion.

[nksaint]

I think David Gaider proved his point very well and I agree with him on this.



Storywise, a cleric class just does not fit into the world correctly and if there is a seperate faith that HAS to be created for that element to be possible I do not see it is worth it. The damage it will do to the story is just a terrible price to pay for that.



Not to mention the balance in characters. A healing, undead bashing tank is overpowered enough. And for it to be done in DA it would need to be a specialization. How could you get the cleric skills in 4 talents? Even game mechanics it does not really fit well. It would be a super nerfed cleric if at all possible.



Again, on both terms it is not worth it. Story has to be put over what some people think would be cool.

[jdblaze85]

I'd just like to add..



Black city.



Coolest fantasy design thought ever.



I. Must. Go. There. Now.

[The Capital Gaultier]

jdblaze85 wrote...

I'd just like to add..

Black city.

Coolest fantasy design thought ever.

I. Must. Go. There. Now.

Step 1: Conquer an empire and amass vast store of lyrium
Step 2: ?
Step 3:  Black City

[DBHolm]

A cleric class could be adapted to fit in with the lore, similar to how the paladin was adapted into the templar.
Whether or not that is a good idea is up to the designers of the game and the setting, and they seem to believe it would not be. Whether or not you disagree is up to you, but shouting in a vacuum accomplishes nothing. At this point, if anyone wants a cleric class, they will simply have to make do with a mod.

Modifié par DBHolm, 09 janvier 2010 - 02:01 .

[AntiChri5]

I strongly suggest that those of you who want a cleric go into the toolset forums and discuss how best to make one that is satisfactory, Or tell the creator of the original mod what is wrong with it in the hope he changes it.

[ladydesire]

AntiChri5 wrote...

I strongly suggest that those of you who want a cleric go into the toolset forums and discuss how best to make one that is satisfactory, Or tell the creator of the original mod what is wrong with it in the hope he changes it.

Naw... It's easier to complain about it not existing, in the hopes that Bioware will give in and mangle the setting to add it for them.

[MMkain]

While Bioware is at it, they should include Trolls. It would be totally awesome to be a Troll Cleric!

Modifié par MMkain, 09 janvier 2010 - 02:36 .

[ushae]

What about Monks ? Anyone who read the second novel 'The Calling' would know that this class is pretty much a canon one, so why not ?

[AntiChri5]

ushae wrote...

What about Monks ? Anyone who read the second novel 'The Calling' would know that this class is pretty much a canon one, so why not ?

There is also a guy with a Flail.I would prefer all actual weapons be done before we have people who can punch an armored knight and somehow do more damage to them then themselves.

[thehistorysage]

FFS, this is like arguing with George Lucas about why Qui-Gon didn't disappear when he got lightsabered. David Gaider says clerics don't fit in Thedas. So they don't fit in Thedas. He fleshed out the entire world, I think the guy might know a thing or two about it. Much like in our world people are free to ascribe whatever amunt of faith they will to the devine. One man's evidence is another man's foolishness. So it is in DA as well. Not only does it work well, but it lends an aire of realism and color to the game/story world.



Technically the ability to create a cleric style character exists in the game. Look at Wynne, she believes her magic is rightfully governed by the Chantry, for good reasons. She has faith in the Maker, and she is easily a dedicated healer. Give her the arcane warrior class and what does that make her? An armored, sword weilding warrior with healing powers. How is that not a cleric style character? Especially given her faith. If you want a carbon copy D&D Cleric, play a D&D game, download the cleric mod, or write your own better one. That's the beauty with an infinitely moddable game of this nature. My "by the canon" Dragon age can be wonderfully different from your Dragon Age which is entirely lacking in story integrity.

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

Iris562 wrote...

Oh? And how is having a Cleric in the game, drawing divine magic from a non-existant deity, running around without any penalties to fatigue whatsoever not Overpowered? Furthermore, it is an opinion by me, in no way was it fact. Yes, I know people have stated that they don't want an OP Cleric; on the other hand, from some posts other people seem to want exactly that. Now, why don't you be a good Grumpy Wizard, and try not to be so condescending to people when they state observations, hmm? 

Let me clue you in. When I am in a discussion I mirror the tone of the person I discuss things with. When you launch your claims with lies and insults, I'll treat you like the moron you have proven yourself to be. If you adopt a civil tone and stick to the truth instead of lying about what others say I'll adopt a civil tone towards you.

You seem to be a incapable to understanding what others wrote. Did the developer David G say gods did not exist in the game? No. If you moronically calim he did, please quote him saying so and link to his quote. Otherwise, your lies just prove you to be an idiot.

A cleric ideally would not share many if any spells with the mage. A cleric would not be a nuke class. A cleric would cast mainly healing and support spells and  have some powers vs undead/demons. A cleric would not have the same fighting prowess as a warrior nor the same hit points. But he would be more hardy than a mage and a better fighter than a mage.

I haven't seen anyone wanting an overpowered cleric. I HAVE seen many wanting the mages to continue to be overpowered because they are incapable of playing a class that is not "god mode." One character class being able to nuke the world, heal, and control crowds is overpowered.

But like I said, Bioware seems to have driven stakes in the ground and poured concrete around them. Mages will continue to have healing spells to the detriment of balance. If they want the mage class to have healing spells they should make certain spells not be selectable if a mage learns healing spells. Or have a severe drawback if a helaing and damage spell are cast within 30 seconds of each other. Anyways, I don't see that happening.

And before some moron makes another moronic comment insulting people who would like a cleric class, I've already said several times David said a cleric class ain't happening so read befroe you run your mouth please.

And, as a response to solo rogues being "OP". Yes, in the hands of a experienced player, they are easy. Can they run head first into a full on mob and survive? Probably not, especially if there is a mage in said mob, which eat through rogues quite well. But that begs to question, couldn't all classes be OP in the hands of an experienced player? Yes. Are they innately OP? No. Would a Cleric, with no penalties wielding both Healing Spells, and Melee skills, drawing from one stamina/mana pool, bringing down judgement to the heathens who blaspheme their god(s) be Overpowered? Yes, yes they would. That is why I sarcasticly suggested the Mod, but that seems to have gone right over your head, right into the "He must be Serious" category. Thank you, sir; this has been an elightening conversation.

Funny, your tone did not seem to be sarcastic when you wrote the original post, nor is your tone sarcastic now. You were just ranting and insulting those who would like a cleric class.

It is stupid to say a cleric class would have to be any more overpowered than any of the other classes currently available.

If you make a dex based dual wield rogue you can play the game NAKED other than your two daggers.

[VanDraegon]

This skidmark on the forums just wont die....

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

AntiChri5 wrote...

ushae wrote...

What about Monks ? Anyone who read the second novel 'The Calling' would know that this class is pretty much a canon one, so why not ?

There is also a guy with a Flail.I would prefer all actual weapons be done before we have people who can punch an armored knight and somehow do more damage to them then themselves.

A huge variety of weapons could be added, but I don't think that would result in as large a variety in gameplay as adding more classes.

If you want the game to be entirely realistic, they need to vastly lower the movement speed of heavily armored characters. The more armor you wear, the slower your movement speed should be.

But there is no reason why a  hand to hand character could not use "chi" or whatever to punch through heavy metal. I would love to see a monk.

Modifié par Grumpy Old Wizard, 09 janvier 2010 - 07:40 .

[Valcutio]

Grumpy Old Wizard pretty much summed up my thoughts. Carry on, Grumpy. Carry on.

[The Capital Gaultier]

AntiChri5 wrote...

There is also a guy with a Flail.I would prefer all actual weapons be done before we have people who can punch an armored knight and somehow do more damage to them then themselves.

Eh, I would like to see a tree for Warriors in the next game that has polearm combat.  Unfortunately, the tech on this seems decidedly difficult, as not many games implement such a style (or implement it in a half-assed way, like WoW).  I'm all for new Warrior/Rogue weapons (and especially bucklers!) wherever possible, but Monks do seem a bit far out there.  Not trying to insult martial artists, but there's damned good reasons why man invents weapons.

[Khayness]

Possible minor spoiler!


Sorry I haven't read through all of the comments, but I'd like to share my ideas about clerics in DA, don't know if the same thought occured in someone before.

What about a "anti-abomination" like character? Instead of a demon, sharing power with a spirit, like Wynne, but more efficently.

The one joining with a spirit doesn't need to be a mage specifically, since avarage people can wander in the Fade while dreaming.

So not manifested power of a diety through a follower, nor mage with special training, but something else.

Modifié par Khayness, 09 janvier 2010 - 11:34 .

[darrenr22]

This thread is an interesting illustration of how the influence of certain genre-specific tropes can shape people's understanding and desires. The cleric is, as a martial character wielding a specific kind of divine magic, is very much an artefact of the Dungeons and Dragons game and its offshoots.


Personally I love Dungeons and Dragons and I love the Neverwinter Nights series of games, all of which I have played to completion. However, I find the treatment of religion in Dragon Age to be very refreshing indeed. I hope that any future developments in the religious elements of the setting are handled with the sensitivity and originality achieved thus far.

Modifié par darrenr22, 09 janvier 2010 - 12:11 .

[simo2003]

I, for one, am glad that they didn't include 'clerics' in the game. It makes sense to me in the context of the setting. If you want one, create a mage with the spirit healer and arcane warrior line. End of.

[Valcutio]

simo2003 wrote... End of.

I love people who think by writing anything like this that it means the thread is over. They amuse me.

[AntiChri5]

Valcutio wrote...

simo2003 wrote... End of.

I love people who think by writing anything like this that it means the thread is over. They amuse me.

You have to admit that this thread is now DAMN redundant.