Oh, you calime that the gods in the game don't grant powers. But Andraste was granted powers by the Maker. So the Maker could grant others powers or the other gods could do so
Modifié par PhroXenGold, 02 janvier 2010 - 03:50 .
The Capital Gaultier wrote...
This is about mechanics to me, and the game cannot provide me with what Clerics actually do.
Even ignoring Turn Undead, it's just not good enough. Yes, you can cast spells, but you are still heavily restricted by armor and especially other buff spells. It just doesn't play like a melee/caster. There is also the issue of spell selection. The spells you can use are everything you've learned off of the Mage spell lists. This is the most obvious reason to explain why Arcane Warriors are so limited, so the list cannot be the same for a Cleric. Finally, they can add a class for new players. Clerics in most games are simple and prop up the rest of the party very well, while still being personally powerful.Sidney wrote...
The Capital Gaultier wrote...
This is about mechanics to me, and the game cannot provide me with what Clerics actually do.
Let's lineup what Clerics do actually do:
Cast spells: Check
Cast Specific Type of Spells - mostly healing and bless: Check
Wear armor: Check
Use blunt weapons: Check
Turn Undead: Fail
Throw together an AW/SH and you are there other than the Turn Undead which just sin't something the game offers because it doesn't work in the DOA setting. What specific issues do you have that clerics can do you can't make someone do in this game?
PhroXenGold wrote...
Oh, you calime that the gods in the game don't grant powers. But Andraste was granted powers by the Maker. So the Maker could grant others powers or the other gods could do so
No. The Chantry claim she was given powers. There is no proof that she was. And even if she did have powers, she could easily have been a mage drawing her powers from the same non-divine source that all other mages do.
Throw together an AW/SH and you are there other than the Turn Undead which just sin't something the game offers because it doesn't work in the DOA setting. What specific issues do you have that clerics can do you can't make someone do in this game?
Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...
So, to recap, Spirit Healer is a group heal, an auto heal, a revive (which you get for free after battles), and a remove injuries spell (which is done for free at camp or you can use a kit for.) No, sorry, that doesn't make a cleric.
I don't think you're mechanically missing Monks, though. An avoidance-based, willful rogue is an apt Monk in most respects. Paladins fall into the same niche as Clerics, so I agree: they are mechanically missing. Adding a Cleric class with a martial specialization would allow you to create a Paladin, however.Sidney wrote...
Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...
So, to recap, Spirit Healer is a group heal, an auto heal, a revive (which you get for free after battles), and a remove injuries spell (which is done for free at camp or you can use a kit for.) No, sorry, that doesn't make a cleric.
I keep seeing people say that SH isn't ENOUGH for a cleric but what spell set does make one? I mean how many forms of bless and cure X wounds must you have? Must you only have the BG2 list of spells? Are you that locked into that ruleset?
This really does come down to the fact that you can't ecape the PRECISE definition of a cleric in AD&D rules by which case you are precisely missing Monks, Paladins and a host of other "real" classes but assuming you can walk away from AD&D you should be able to live with those basically meaning distinctions.
Modifié par The Capital Gaultier, 02 janvier 2010 - 05:00 .
The Capital Gaultier wrote...
I don't think you're mechanically missing Monks, though. An avoidance-based, willful rogue is an apt Monk in most respects. Paladins fall into the same niche as Clerics, so I agree: they are mechanically missing. Adding a Cleric class with a martial specialization would allow you to create a Paladin, however.
Unless the lore allows for a person to hit with hands as damaging as daggers, then yes, it's the same thing. Monks are mentally strong, dexterous and religious. All of those things can describe a rogue. Beyond that, The abilities a monk gets vary considerably between games.Sidney wrote...
The Capital Gaultier wrote...
I don't think you're mechanically missing Monks, though. An avoidance-based, willful rogue is an apt Monk in most respects. Paladins fall into the same niche as Clerics, so I agree: they are mechanically missing. Adding a Cleric class with a martial specialization would allow you to create a Paladin, however.
Wait, you are willing to claim an "avoidance" rogue = a monk but not that an AW/SH = a cleric. Now you've gone off the deep end.
If you don't turn on all the AW sustained powers, then you aren't an effective melee combatant. So, yes, they are a missing mechanic.You still can't tell me what mechancis you are missing for Clerics because armored spellcasters are in the game - and you don't have to just turn on all the AW sustained powers so that won't work.
Modifié par The Capital Gaultier, 02 janvier 2010 - 05:13 .
The Capital Gaultier wrote...
I don't want them to be identical to Clerics in other games. I want their role back. The background, attitudes, specific abilities and the like ought to be different.
The Capital Gaultier wrote...
Unless the lore allows for a person to hit with hands as damaging as daggers, then yes, it's the same thing. Monks are mentally strong, dexterous and religious. All of those things can describe a rogue. Beyond that, The abilities a monk gets vary considerably between games.Sidney wrote...
The Capital Gaultier wrote...
I don't think you're mechanically missing Monks, though. An avoidance-based, willful rogue is an apt Monk in most respects. Paladins fall into the same niche as Clerics, so I agree: they are mechanically missing. Adding a Cleric class with a martial specialization would allow you to create a Paladin, however.
Wait, you are willing to claim an "avoidance" rogue = a monk but not that an AW/SH = a cleric. Now you've gone off the deep end.If you don't turn on all the AW sustained powers, then you aren't an effective melee combatant. So, yes, they are a missing mechanic.You still can't tell me what mechancis you are missing for Clerics because armored spellcasters are in the game - and you don't have to just turn on all the AW sustained powers so that won't work.
Say the Mages of Ferelden gain their independence. The Chantry could answer by creating an order of Clerics who "wield the power of the Maker" to further the Chantry's own goals. If the current Chantry domination of the Circle comes to an end, it would be a natural reaction by the leadership, just as they teach magic to the Templars.ladydesire wrote...
The Capital Gaultier wrote...
I don't want them to be identical to Clerics in other games. I want their role back. The background, attitudes, specific abilities and the like ought to be different.
What is their role, in the context of the game lore? As I see it, everything they are in D&D is covered by the Mage and its specializations, with the possible exception of turning Undead; the same is true of Druids, for that matter. Bioware made a decision to break with the traditional Mage, Cleric, Fighter, Rogue quartet that has been a staple of RPG games since the early part of the 1970's and you're asking them to revert back to that, for the sake of your desire to play a Cleric; I don't forsee them doing that for a long time. If you really want to play a Cleric, download Reynen Starfyre's Cleric mod and stop pestering Bioware with this request.
That's an implication I did not intend to make. I even specifically said that the spells used by Clerics ought to be different than those used by Mages for that very reason.FlintlockJazz wrote...
The Capital Gaultier wrote...
Unless the lore allows for a person to hit with hands as damaging as daggers, then yes, it's the same thing. Monks are mentally strong, dexterous and religious. All of those things can describe a rogue. Beyond that, The abilities a monk gets vary considerably between games.Sidney wrote...
The Capital Gaultier wrote...
I don't think you're mechanically missing Monks, though. An avoidance-based, willful rogue is an apt Monk in most respects. Paladins fall into the same niche as Clerics, so I agree: they are mechanically missing. Adding a Cleric class with a martial specialization would allow you to create a Paladin, however.
Wait, you are willing to claim an "avoidance" rogue = a monk but not that an AW/SH = a cleric. Now you've gone off the deep end.If you don't turn on all the AW sustained powers, then you aren't an effective melee combatant. So, yes, they are a missing mechanic.You still can't tell me what mechancis you are missing for Clerics because armored spellcasters are in the game - and you don't have to just turn on all the AW sustained powers so that won't work.
So what you are saying is that you want to brilliant at both melee and spellcasting? That is both OP'd and never what a cleric was about.
Modifié par The Capital Gaultier, 02 janvier 2010 - 07:58 .
The Capital Gaultier wrote...
Say the Mages of Ferelden gain their independence. The Chantry could answer by creating an order of Clerics who "wield the power of the Maker" to further the Chantry's own goals. If the current Chantry domination of the Circle comes to an end, it would be a natural reaction by the leadership, just as they teach magic to the Templars.
There are many factions within the Circle. The Loyalists are like you describe. The Libertarians are the opposite (like Uldred). I think the Loyalists would be the ones who stay the most loyal to and help bring up mages under the Chantry.ladydesire wrote...
The Capital Gaultier wrote...
Say the Mages of Ferelden gain their independence. The Chantry could answer by creating an order of Clerics who "wield the power of the Maker" to further the Chantry's own goals. If the current Chantry domination of the Circle comes to an end, it would be a natural reaction by the leadership, just as they teach magic to the Templars.
This assumes that the Circle desires to be free of the monitoring; I don't see that as being the case. Even the First Enchanter seems to accept that the risks of unmonitored mages is something that is not in the best interest of Thedas.
If you really want to play a Cleric, download Reynen Starfyre's Cleric mod and stop pestering Bioware with this request.
So what you are saying is that you want to brilliant at both melee and spellcasting? That is both OP'd and never what a cleric was about
This assumes that the Circle desires to be free of the monitoring; I don't see that as being the case. Even the First Enchanter seems to accept that the risks of unmonitored mages is something that is not in the best interest of Thedas.
Relshar wrote...
I for one and glad not to see clerics. Mages can do the job of healing.
As for game lore the Maker has turned his back on Thedas so therefore there is no divine magic to draw upon.
Why do we all have to follow the D&D route of background lore etc. Its been done a million times I think its time for something new to the fantasy genre. And this looks like it maybe just that.
Malfurus wrote...
Why do people assume waring armor and wielding a mace is all what a cleric is about? In my opinion thats a "War" Cleric. The Cleric I had in mind was very much like Crysania, shielding my friends, buffing my characters, attacking with holy power. I can picture the Clerical abilities in my head and they look great. And so many people are limited in their imagination, I don't think Clerics is such a difficult thing to add into the game, people with gifts given from the God/Gods. Andraste was such, being able to perform miracles. And no, mixing two existing specializations is not my idea of a Cleric. Forget the fact that there is no tactics necessary for that but simply choosing one skill after another, but it also provides for limited game play.
Malfurus wrote...
Why do people seem to be forgetting about Andraste, she's only, oh I don't know, one of the biggest Lore background in DA:O. She was a prophet that was bestowed with divine powers....period. It talks about it in the Codex, so yes it is VERY realistic that Bioware may be able to incorporate such a class. PLUS...Mages should NOT have access to healing spells. I beat the game twice now on Nightmare both with Mages and I deffinitely feel that Mages are overpowered if they can heal themselves. I mean Wynne, although I can't say shes useless, is not as useful anymore considering my Mage has Group Heal, Revival, Lifegiver (Or w.e its called), and then getting the Aura. I mean honestly forget the part where someone may not like Cleric roles because they don't "think" it fits properly into lore, but what about from the standpoint that healing abilities should not be accessible through playing a Mage?
Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...
If you really want to play a Cleric, download Reynen Starfyre's Cleric mod and stop pestering Bioware with this request.
Sorry, other people than you bought the game and have a right to express their viewpoints too. If Bioware adds clerics to the game you still won't have to play one.
Modifié par Malfurus, 03 janvier 2010 - 02:01 .
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