384 réponses à ce sujet

[AntiChri5]

Malfurus wrote...

Why do people seem to be forgetting about Andraste, she's only, oh I don't know, one of the biggest Lore background in DA:O. She was a prophet that was bestowed with divine powers....period. It talks about it in the Codex, so yes it is VERY realistic that Bioware may be able to incorporate such a class. PLUS...Mages should NOT have access to healing spells. I beat the game twice now on Nightmare both with Mages and I deffinitely feel that Mages are overpowered if they can heal themselves. I mean Wynne, although I can't say shes useless, is not as useful anymore considering my Mage has Group Heal, Revival, Lifegiver (Or w.e its called), and then getting the Aura. I mean honestly forget the part where someone may not like Cleric roles because they don't "think" it fits properly into lore, but what about from the standpoint that healing abilities should not be accessible through playing a Mage?

How do you know that Andraste got her powers from the Maker? The Chantry says so. Even then it could be the same as the first Dragonlance novel. Godsused to give people powers, then they stopped. If anything you should be arguimg for the return of the Maker in future games.

There is a book you find that is about whether Andraste was really a mage. Besides, where is the listof Divine acts that she performed?

[huxley00]

FlintlockJazz wrote...

hero 2 wrote...

I think the Urn of Sacred ashes miracle beats you on the old divine power aspect of your argument. 

Except that we don't know if that really was a miracle, a side effect of all the lyrium (apparently if you have Oghren then he will say that the place is filled with lyrium and has probably seeped into the place) or whether Andraste was really a mage and is some leftover power of hers.  Or maybe Eamonn just got better on his own?  Never know!

I initially thought the same HOWEVER, there is a certain part of the game that flat out states that it is possible andraste was something else (not saying to avoid spoilers) and the ashes do not have power from a divine source.

[AntiChri5]

huxley00 wrote...

FlintlockJazz wrote...

hero 2 wrote...

I think the Urn of Sacred ashes miracle beats you on the old divine power aspect of your argument. 

Except that we don't know if that really was a miracle, a side effect of all the lyrium (apparently if you have Oghren then he will say that the place is filled with lyrium and has probably seeped into the place) or whether Andraste was really a mage and is some leftover power of hers.  Or maybe Eamonn just got better on his own?  Never know!

I initially thought the same HOWEVER, there is a certain part of the game that flat out states that it is possible andraste was something else (not saying to avoid spoilers) and the ashes do not have power from a divine source.

Exactly. The only "Divine" act performed by her was done by her ashes long after she was dead. Oh wow we better have a thousand people running around with divine power.

Also, why the hell would someone capable of making an Earthquake Firestorm Storm of the Century never under any circumstances be able to heal a cut?

[The Capital Gaultier]

AntiChri5 wrote...

Also, why the hell would someone capable of making an Earthquake Firestorm Storm of the Century never under any circumstances be able to heal a cut?

Same reason a person who can make a puree of darkspawn using two daggers wouldn't be able to open a locked chest - they didn't study it. :happy:

[ladydesire]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

Same reason a person who can make a puree of darkspawn using two daggers wouldn't be able to open a locked chest - they didn't study it. :happy:

[AntiChri5]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

AntiChri5 wrote...

Also, why the hell would someone capable of making an Earthquake Firestorm Storm of the Century never under any circumstances be able to heal a cut?

Same reason a person who can make a puree of darkspawn using two daggers wouldn't be able to open a locked chest - they didn't study it. :happy:

Exactly!!! This is why my Shapeshifet Primal mage cant heal!!! But if i ignored the earth line and took the healing line from creation i would be able too. My post was about why they could never learn, In DnD no matter how powerfull your wizaed is he cant heal....no matter how many meteors he can summon. Just make a religous mage who prays before casting spells. There ya go!! Cleric!!!

[The Capital Gaultier]

AntiChri5 wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

AntiChri5 wrote...

Also, why the hell would someone capable of making an Earthquake Firestorm Storm of the Century never under any circumstances be able to heal a cut?

Same reason a person who can make a puree of darkspawn using two daggers wouldn't be able to open a locked chest - they didn't study it. :happy:

Exactly!!! This is why my Shapeshifet Primal mage cant heal!!! But if i ignored the earth line and took the healing line from creation i would be able too. My post was about why they could never learn, In DnD no matter how powerfull your wizaed is he cant heal....no matter how many meteors he can summon. Just make a religous mage who prays before casting spells. There ya go!! Cleric!!!

I was referring to Warriors, who are in a similar place.  It just ain't a part of the Warrior pursuit I guess.

[ladydesire]

AntiChri5 wrote...

Exactly!!! This is why my Shapeshifet Primal mage cant heal!!! But if i ignored the earth line and took the healing line from creation i would be able too. My post was about why they could never learn, In DnD no matter how powerfull your wizaed is he cant heal....no matter how many meteors he can summon. Just make a religous mage who prays before casting spells. There ya go!! Cleric!!!

Yep, but that's not good enough for them; they want a D&D type Cleric class added to a game that wasn't intended to have one, by design.

[ladydesire]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

I was referring to Warriors, who are in a similar place.  It just ain't a part of the Warrior pursuit I guess.

Just because Mages in D&D couldn't heal doesn't mean that all Mages in all RPG games should have the same restrictions.

[The Capital Gaultier]

ladydesire wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

I was referring to Warriors, who are in a similar place.  It just ain't a part of the Warrior pursuit I guess.

Just because Mages in D&D couldn't heal doesn't mean that all Mages in all RPG games should have the same restrictions.

I agree.

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

Exactly. The only "Divine" act performed by her was done by her ashes long after she was dead. Oh wow we better have a thousand people running around with divine power.

Care to prove your statement or it is true just because you say so?

The chantry says the Maker gave her powers. Now present your proof they are lying.

And the Urn is on the chantry's side of the evidence. Sure, you could claim, "Oh, it is just a nice coincidence that the urn happend to have the desired effect and it was surely just the good genes of the Guardian that granted him such long life" but would seem to carry an extremely weak argument.

And Leliani is a delusiounal fool because you say so, right? And what can be seen from the fade is just an illusion.

Also, why the hell would someone capable of making an Earthquake Firestorm Storm of the Century never under any circumstances be able to heal a cut?

Why do you seem to think arcane magic should be able to do anything?  There is no logic in saying "because I can cast a fireball I can raise the dead."

The mages in the game follow traditional mage lore in that they STUDY to learn spells. and practice them over and over again. Powers granted by a god, such as the Chantry claims for Andraste, are granted, not studied to obtain.

[Malfurus]

ladydesire wrote...

AntiChri5 wrote...

Exactly!!! This is why my Shapeshifet Primal mage cant heal!!! But if i ignored the earth line and took the healing line from creation i would be able too. My post was about why they could never learn, In DnD no matter how powerfull your wizaed is he cant heal....no matter how many meteors he can summon. Just make a religous mage who prays before casting spells. There ya go!! Cleric!!!

Yep, but that's not good enough for them; they want a D&D type Cleric class added to a game that wasn't intended to have one, by design.

Wooow, LadyDesire I don't understand why you keep saying the game wasn't intended that way. How do YOU know? The game's lore can be changed to include a Cleric class, and with Bioware's expertise I'm sure they could easily, if they haven't already, began to implent it. Not only that, you're missing the WHOLE IDEA of playing a Cleric. Its an RPG! I want to ROLE....PLAY with a Cleric. And so do many others. Their own Origin, the way the game responds to their character, their powers that they could possibly wield, I mean so many possibilities. Not just making it so easy as getting three skills from the Spirit Healer section and two skills from Arcane Warrior. That limits creativity and tactics.  Do you understand that? Because I feel like you don't. Just because YOU don't wish to play a Cleric doesn't mean we don't want to, and doesn't mean that there is no way in hell they could have Lore supporting divine powers. For all you know the Old Gods could return, breaking free of the Maker's prisons and grant their faitful followers powers. YOU...DON'T....KNOW! So stop saying stuff like "it doesn't fit lore..." But yes, I DO understand what you may mean when you say "it doesn't fit lore," because at this point of time, from the limited information of the world that we know so far from playing the game, it doesn't.

Just because Mages in D&D couldn't heal doesn't mean that all Mages in all RPG games should have the same restrictions.

They sure do need have the same restrictions. Has nothing to do with DnD, not everything has to do with DnD. And yes, RPG games should ALL have the same restrictions because a Mage who can cast Earthquake, Blizzard, Tempest and then create Storm of the Century, AND can Group Heal, and Petrify, and encase people in crushing prisons, and Mind blast, and freeze etc..(the list goes on) should NOT be able to also heal himself. That would make a Mage way overpowered. Mages are supposed to wield deadly powers (which in this game they sure do) but they're also supposed to die easily if attacked directly by mobs. Hence, a weak physical resistance but a high damage output. I mean forget lore, and RPG and whatnot, think of it from a purely balancing standpoint. I've played with two different mages now with the game on Nightmare and I'm telling you I would DREAD to not have even a single mage in my party just because of the sudden decrease of damage output, heals, and crowd control I forsee. People already complain about mages being overpowered and in cases of Heals and AW (I won't even open that can of worms) then they're right. 

Modifié par Malfurus, 03 janvier 2010 - 06:58 .

[RangerSG]

I like the 'all magic is magic' approach for THIS setting.



That said, I'd like the Chantry (proper) as a playable faction in an expansion or sequel. Not something you'd 'have' to do. But something you could choose to join.

[royen1]

Malfurus wrote...
I want to ROLE....PLAY with a Cleric.

Define roleplaying, please. Nothing is stopping you from roleplaying a cleric that doesn't conflict with the lore.

[Fizzbangblade]

Maybe after a couple of expansions our main character and/or companions will become a "God", hence opening up new possibilities for expanding the game. Also we have yet to find out how a certain child will effect the game world. Personally I don't really see the need to include "Divine Magic" into the game. One other objection to Clerics is that they are often "overpowered" and can unbalance the games that have them.

I very much like Dragon Age Origins as it is at the moment, and I also care about how sensitively and carefully the game / story / world has been developed for us and hope that we can allow the game developers and writers to provide their own vision to us in subsequent expansions & DLCs.

[Valoss]

If I remember right there is a cleric in-game. It is the chantry priest who is preaching for the soldiers in camp. So the clerics already have a non-magical role in the game I think.

I may be wrong though.

[ladydesire]

Malfurus wrote...

Wooow, LadyDesire I don't understand why you keep saying the game wasn't intended that way. How do YOU know? The game's lore can be changed to include a Cleric class, and with Bioware's expertise I'm sure they could easily, if they haven't already, began to implent it.

I don't know how much more obvious it could be, short of David Gaider himself, or some other Bioware developer, posting that the game is not supposed to have a D&D style Cleric class; the clerics and other religious folks in the game are either Warriors or Rogues.

Not only that, you're missing the WHOLE IDEA of playing a Cleric. Its an RPG! I want to ROLE....PLAY with a Cleric. And so do many others. Their own Origin, the way the game responds to their character, their powers that they could possibly wield, I mean so many possibilities. Not just making it so easy as getting three skills from the Spirit Healer section and two skills from Arcane Warrior. That limits creativity and tactics.  Do you understand that? Because I feel like you don't. Just because YOU don't wish to play a Cleric doesn't mean we don't want to, and doesn't mean that there is no way in hell they could have Lore supporting divine powers. For all you know the Old Gods could return, breaking free of the Maker's prisons and grant their faitful followers powers. YOU...DON'T....KNOW! So stop saying stuff like "it doesn't fit lore..." But yes, I DO understand what you may mean when you say "it doesn't fit lore," because at this point of time, from the limited information of the world that we know so far from playing the game, it doesn't.

Why do Clerics have to have spells? And why does an RPG have to follow the same rules that have been followed for the past 35+ years with respect to Mages not having access to Healing abilities?

[Malfurus]

Why do Mages have to have spells? I mean if they've got this whole new fantasy world why not have a Mage's role be ones who wield Harpoons and run around in a circle performing some lost forgotten rituals....because thats not what mages do. Just like thats what clerics do, they cast spells. You could possibly have a Battle Cleric tree, an Evil Cleric, a Support/Healing Cleric...etc. In my head, my adventure companions would be composed of a Warrior, Rogue, Cleric, Mage, and Ranger, all with their unique in-game backgrounds, dialog..etc..so no, I wouldn't want to just pick six or so talents up and say "Okay I'm a cleric." And following certain rules is what makes uf fall in love with the games and made it an undying franchise.

[Malfurus]

All I'm saying is, is I would like to see more playable classes and I would like to see a Cleric class thats versatile in its role in game. Its simple as just that.

[Schneidend]

More playable classes is fine, but Dragon Age went with a more basic approach. You have three classes that imply general things about your capabilities, and then you specify what you can do with talents.



Moreover, as you have been told many times, there simply is no in-game reason for there to be Clerics in a D&D-like form. There is no magic except for lyrium-based magic that Mages and Templars use. The Maker has either turned his back on Thedar, or is, more likely, simply not real.

[The Capital Gaultier]

Schneidend wrote...

Moreover, as you have been told many times, there simply is no in-game reason for there to be Clerics in a D&D-like form. There is no magic except for lyrium-based magic that Mages and Templars use. The Maker has either turned his back on Thedar, or is, more likely, simply not real.

Not taking issue with your opinion, but it's simply wrong that magic is lyrium-based.  As is mentioned in the game, lyrium does not enhance templar powers nor does it allow mages to cast spells.  What it does do is allow mages to access the fade and provide a quick way to recover health and mana.

[Schneidend]

By "lyrium-based" I meant "magic that is affected by and focused on lyrium use." Obviously, being a mage is something innate that a lack of lyrium cannot take away. However, lyrium is required for permanent enchantment, and it can also provide a boost in magical power that allows a mage to accomplish what might otherwise be impossible for that mage. Also, it is only Alistair's suspicion that lyrium doesn't boost Templar powers. Templars use magic, and therefore, in the reality of the setting, lyrium can boost their powers as it can for any mage.

[The Capital Gaultier]

Schneidend wrote...

By "lyrium-based" I meant "magic that is affected by and focused on lyrium use." Obviously, being a mage is something innate that a lack of lyrium cannot take away. However, lyrium is required for permanent enchantment, and it can also provide a boost in magical power that allows a mage to accomplish what might otherwise be impossible for that mage. Also, it is only Alistair's suspicion that lyrium doesn't boost Templar powers. Templars use magic, and therefore, in the reality of the setting, lyrium can boost their powers as it can for any mage.

Except that it never happens.  Templars are only ever adversely affected by lyrium in the game.  There is never any mention of a positive effect.  I kinda doubt that's an accident.

Modifié par The Capital Gaultier, 03 janvier 2010 - 08:48 .

[Malfurus]

And like I said many times before, I KNOW the current lore doesn't support Clerics at this point of time but I'm sure there can be some, especially when it comes time to go to Orlais. The lore is every changing. I don't understand why some presume the lore is going to stay at it is, it CAN and WILL change. Stop posting about how its impossible to have Clerics in the game because your post is absurd and way over done. Current lore may not support Clerics but as well all know the game is our personal adventure, so who knows, maybe there ARE Elven gods and MAYBE the Old Gods will rise again and grant their followers divine power. Simple as that. Lore is every changing. Period.

[AntiChri5]

So Dragon age can become another DnD setting? Another soulless clone? YAY!!!!! Different is bad!!! All RPGs MUST be the SAME!!!