384 réponses à ce sujet

[ladydesire]

Malfurus wrote...

And like I said many times before, I KNOW the current lore doesn't support Clerics at this point of time but I'm sure there can be some, especially when it comes time to go to Orlais. The lore is every changing. I don't understand why some presume the lore is going to stay at it is, it CAN and WILL change. Stop posting about how its impossible to have Clerics in the game because your post is absurd and way over done. Current lore may not support Clerics but as well all know the game is our personal adventure, so who knows, maybe there ARE Elven gods and MAYBE the Old Gods will rise again and grant their followers divine power. Simple as that. Lore is every changing. Period.

Why are you so sure that Bioware will want to add the Cleric class later on? Couldn't the lack of a class by that name at all in the game mean that there is not, and never has been, any intention of them putting it in?

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

Schneidend wrote...

More playable classes is fine, but Dragon Age went with a more basic approach. You have three classes that imply general things about your capabilities, and then you specify what you can do with talents.

.

Oh, would be wrong for Bioware to add additional classes in an expansion or DLC? There must remain only three classes?  Why?

Schneidend wrote...

Moreover, as you have been told many times, there simply is no in-game reason for there to be Clerics in a D&D-like form. There is no magic except for lyrium-based magic that Mages and Templars use. The Maker has either turned his back on Thedar, or is, more likely, simply not real.

Yeah, we've been "told" by non-developers who think for some reason that they are the prophets of the game. They speak and it is true, they somehow don't have to back up their words.

Prove that lyrium is the only basis of magic in the game. There are Dalish mages and other non-Circle mages. Prove that the basis of their magic is lyrium please.

Prove that the Maker is not real. Why can the "Black City" be seen in the fade? Prove the Chantry is wrong about their explaination of the Black City. Prove Andraste had no Maker-given powers. Prove the ""old gods" are not real. Prove Leliani is just a delusional idiot.

You see, you can claim all day long that the only magic in the world is lyrium based but you need to PROVE what you are saying since you are claiming others are wrong. It is not true just because you say so.

Prove that neither the Maker nor the "old gods" can grant powers.

[ladydesire]

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...

Schneidend wrote...

More playable classes is fine, but Dragon Age went with a more basic approach. You have three classes that imply general things about your capabilities, and then you specify what you can do with talents.

.

Oh, would be wrong for Bioware to add additional classes in an expansion or DLC? There must remain only three classes?  Why?

I don't think he's saying not to add more classes; he's likely saying that they already have others in mind and that a Cleric type class is not among them.

Schneidend wrote...

Moreover, as you have been told many times, there simply is no in-game reason for there to be Clerics in a D&D-like form. There is no magic except for lyrium-based magic that Mages and Templars use. The Maker has either turned his back on Thedar, or is, more likely, simply not real.

Yeah, we've been "told" by non-developers who think for some reason that they are the prophets of the game. They speak and it is true, they somehow don't have to back up their words.

Prove that lyrium is the only basis of magic in the game. There are Dalish mages and other non-Circle mages. Prove that the basis of their magic is lyrium please.

Actually, you're somwhat right on this, since wouldn't it follow that Dwarves would be very powerful Mages if lyrium were the source of magic? However, we don't know that the Dalish Mages don't get their magic from the Fade any more than we know that it's from a divine source. Either way, since Bioware chose not to add a Cleric class in a form that some players would accept as such, why continue asking for something that the community has already added?

[royen1]

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...

Yeah, we've been "told" by non-developers who think for some reason that they are the prophets of the game. They speak and it is true, they somehow don't have to back up their words.

Prove that lyrium is the only basis of magic in the game. There are Dalish mages and other non-Circle mages. Prove that the basis of their magic is lyrium please.

Prove that the Maker is not real. Why can the "Black City" be seen in the fade? Prove the Chantry is wrong about their explaination of the Black City. Prove Andraste had no Maker-given powers. Prove the ""old gods" are not real. Prove Leliani is just a delusional idiot.

You see, you can claim all day long that the only magic in the world is lyrium based but you need to PROVE what you are saying since you are claiming others are wrong. It is not true just because you say so.

Prove that neither the Maker nor the "old gods" can grant powers.

Regarding the existence of the Maker, all evidence for Him is circumstantial at best (much like that for gods in the real world). I'm certain this was intentional. Much like in the real world, the burden of proof in on those who make extraordinary claims.

Likewise, if we apply Occam's razor in the context of the DAO setting (I know, I know), any powers ascribed to Andraste is either "regular" magic or the effects of wishful thinking on part of the observers.

Anyway, I kind of like the current state of affairs where the existence of gods is unknown, which is also why I oppose the addition of clerics with god-given powers.

[FlintlockJazz]

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...

Yeah, we've been "told" by non-developers who think for some reason that they are the prophets of the game. They speak and it is true, they somehow don't have to back up their words.

Prove that lyrium is the only basis of magic in the game. There are Dalish mages and other non-Circle mages. Prove that the basis of their magic is lyrium please.

Prove that the Maker is not real. Why can the "Black City" be seen in the fade? Prove the Chantry is wrong about their explaination of the Black City. Prove Andraste had no Maker-given powers. Prove the ""old gods" are not real. Prove Leliani is just a delusional idiot.

You see, you can claim all day long that the only magic in the world is lyrium based but you need to PROVE what you are saying since you are claiming others are wrong. It is not true just because you say so.

Prove that neither the Maker nor the "old gods" can grant powers.

False, it is not lyrium but the Fade that is the source of magic, it is all in the lore/codexes, read them.  The game has gone the route of not having clerics with magic in order to leave the existence of the Maker as questionable so it is a true matter of faith rather than "My god exists because I had tea with him last week and gave me some new spells!" type of thing.  I have already explained how a cleric ingame would work if they did make it a class, and it would not be the same way as in other games, they would be a motivator and have similarities with Champions and Bards more, anything else would just smack the rest of us who like the change they have made for this game. 

There are plenty of other games that have clerics and even a mod that you can dl to have it, so why force it on this game too?  Lets just have at least one game that doesn't go totally with stereotypes please?

[Deldarian]

Along the whole mages discussion. I would like more distinction between mages, just not a "mage" who can specialize in schools with only 4 spells, But have specializations as more binding and influential choices, like closing off some schools and opening up others. Like being a blood mage gives you access to spells more associated with demons and undead.

[The Capital Gaultier]

Deldarian wrote...

Like being a blood mage gives you access to spells more associated with demons and undead.

What?

The four spells associated with Blood Magic are:

Blood Magic - allows you to use health as mana
Blood Sacrifice - draws life from ally to caster
Blood Wound - paralyzes victims
Blood Control - single-target rudimentary mind control

Now, Blood Magic is frequently used by demons, true, but there's nothing in there that has to do with undead.

[Malfurus]

FlintlockJazz wrote...

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...

Yeah, we've been "told" by non-developers who think for some reason that they are the prophets of the game. They speak and it is true, they somehow don't have to back up their words.

Prove that lyrium is the only basis of magic in the game. There are Dalish mages and other non-Circle mages. Prove that the basis of their magic is lyrium please.

Prove that the Maker is not real. Why can the "Black City" be seen in the fade? Prove the Chantry is wrong about their explaination of the Black City. Prove Andraste had no Maker-given powers. Prove the ""old gods" are not real. Prove Leliani is just a delusional idiot.

You see, you can claim all day long that the only magic in the world is lyrium based but you need to PROVE what you are saying since you are claiming others are wrong. It is not true just because you say so.

Prove that neither the Maker nor the "old gods" can grant powers.

False, it is not lyrium but the Fade that is the source of magic, it is all in the lore/codexes, read them.  The game has gone the route of not having clerics with magic in order to leave the existence of the Maker as questionable so it is a true matter of faith rather than "My god exists because I had tea with him last week and gave me some new spells!" type of thing.  I have already explained how a cleric ingame would work if they did make it a class, and it would not be the same way as in other games, they would be a motivator and have similarities with Champions and Bards more, anything else would just smack the rest of us who like the change they have made for this game. 

There are plenty of other games that have clerics and even a mod that you can dl to have it, so why force it on this game too?  Lets just have at least one game that doesn't go totally with stereotypes please?

Hey bub, I think you misunderstood the wizard's post. "Prove that lyrium is the only basis of magic in the game. There are Dalish mages and other non-Circle mages. Prove that the basis of their magic is lyrium please. " He's saying that its NOT lyrium that grants magical powers like you just stated.

And just because they didn't add Cleric class into this game doesn't mean they don't want it. How the heck does that make sense? Maybe they didn't have enough time, maybe they intentionally left it out to add in a future expansion. This thread is not about whats currently presented to us but about the possibilities for future expansion, so stop with the posts saying that its impossible to have a Cleric class in the game because you're just assuming...and when you assume you're just makin an ass out of you and me. Such pessimist people around, why think of why stuff can't happen but how it can happen, and trust me I can think of several scenarios and in my head they seem pretty legit and a POSSIBILITY. So its not set in stone that their wont be a cleric class in the game so stop saying stuff like "theres no gods" and etc...its stupid to assume that the lore will stay the same. 

[ladydesire]

Malfurus, I've sent you a PM, so as to not spoil the game, but what some of us understand is that Bioware chose deliberately to break from multiple traditions in not only RPGs, but fantasy in general with how they designed the Dragon Age world and lore. Them adding a Cleric class that has Divine power now would be like saying that they don't believe in following the lore that they created for this game.

[Malfurus]

Theres a lot of things we don't know about lore in this game, to say that it is definite that such a thing is impossible or contradicts whats in place and what the future of the game holds is just mere assumption.

[dalethfc]

DA:O is fine as it is,, You want a Cleric,, use the Mod,, but I dont want to see DA:O bogged down with Old DnD rules.

We have a wealth of Brilliant Modders here who can create worlds and classes and more.



I have used the Cleric mod,, but it needs the hard lvl to use it.

In the game it's self,, my mages heal and throw around shed loads of death and destruction.

Thats good enough for me. Must be hard to use health pots for some.

Carry On Bioware,, DnD Rules are not needed.



And I love the rogue class,, it's brilliant.



(I just had to put my bit in )

[BelgarathMTH]

I missed the cleric class at first, but now I don't, because I realized that what I was missing wasn't the idea of a character that gets his powers from a god, but rather the specialization of a character who has healing and protection magic and is also good with armor and weapons.



Once I got my first character to level 14 and started playing with the SH/AW combo, I had a head-slapping moment of "Oh, duh! Here's my cleric class. You just don't get the total package until level 14."



And now I kind of like the idea that you have to progress to a very high level of expertise to get all the powers of the class - levels one through seven, you only have your magical ability, levels seven through fourteen, you have to decide whether to get stronger in healing magic (spirit healer) or begin your martial weapons training (arcane warrior). And finally, not until level 14 do you come into your full set of powers as a "cleric". Meaning in this case, "fighting healer" as opposed to "priest/priestess".



If you ask, "how is it different from the classic 'mage'?", I would respond that my mage characters focus on crowd control and dps. In a nutshell, I look at clerical magic as being Creation and Spirit, and mage magic as being Entropy and Primal.



I know that won't make everybody happy, but it works well for me, so I can have my DAO and still have my "classic four" - Warrior, Rogue, Healer, Sorcerer.

[royen1]

Malfurus wrote...

Theres a lot of things we don't know about lore in this game, to say that it is definite that such a thing is impossible or contradicts whats in place and what the future of the game holds is just mere assumption.

Well, the point isn't so much it contradicts my interpretation of the lore so it won't happen, but rather that my interpretation of the available lore and other observations, the Maker, if he even exists, is an absent god. Thus, divine supernatural powers granted to believers is very unlikely, and if the lore was altered to accomodate divine magic and/or a DnD style cleric class, it would cheapen the experience for me and, presumably, others.

Anyway, you asked people what they think about clerics, and this is after all a discussion forum.

[Schneidend]

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...

Prove that lyrium is the only basis of magic in the game. There are Dalish mages and other non-Circle mages. Prove that the basis of their magic is lyrium please.

I didn't say lyrium was the source of magic. I only meant that templars and mages use magic that is affected by lyrium.

Prove that the Maker is not real. Why can the "Black City" be seen in the fade? Prove the Chantry is wrong about their explaination of the Black City. Prove Andraste had no Maker-given powers. Prove the ""old gods" are not real. Prove Leliani is just a delusional idiot.

You see, you can claim all day long that the only magic in the world is lyrium based but you need to PROVE what you are saying since you are claiming others are wrong. It is not true just because you say so.

Prove that neither the Maker nor the "old gods" can grant powers.

The burden of proof is on those making the extraordinary claim, as others have stated.

• There is no empirical proof that the Maker is real, and therefore one need not prove he isn't real to logically come to that conclusion.
• The Black City could be anything, like a demon lord's palace, or an extraplanar kingdom created by an ancient civilization.
• I've never claimed anything about what the Black City is or isn't. If you and the Chantry want to convince me that what you say is true, then it is YOU who must prove that your theory is true.
• I can't prove Andrastae had no divine powers. Given that I and my main character Segard Cousland do not believe in the Maker due to the above, we logically assume that Andrastae was a mage, as that is the most obvious explanation.
• Likewise, it is logical to assume that the old gods were simply very powerful dragons, since they look like dragons.
• Leliana has a great deal of faith, but Segard doesn't begrudge her that. If she wants to believe some all-power invisible man told her to fight darkspawn, then that is her business.

[AntiChri5]

Can we stop talking about the Black City as if it is a real thing that can be proven? It is in the fade....we all know how reliable reality is there.

[Revik]

You can't have anyone wielding holy powers. That by definition is evidence of a god and perhaps gods. The reason being is that one of the foundations of the lore of DA is that the Chantry relies on faith alone to sustain their belief in the Maker. To have any ANY evidence to the contrary would call into question their faith.



This is why the origin of Magic is so well defined in DA and why it is not of a divine source.



On a side note in the world of DA I think there is more proof of there being a Maker than its non-existence as some people seem to be pointing out. You have Andraste's ashes having curative powers, you have evidence in the Black City in the Fade, the origin of demons coming from the Fade, you have existence of dark spawn. All these things are explained by the Chantry and all are related to the divine and the Maker. These are hardline tangible things well aside from the Black City in the Fade as proof. In order to prove the Maker's non-existence you would need a theory that is actually better than one given and so far I have not seen one.

[john181818]

The mentality of a person playing a cleric, especially in a MORPG, is different.  I played a cleric in Everquest after my guild needed healing more than my original mage.  I became very good at it and folks asked me to explain how to play a really good one and I just told them it was a different mindset then playing a damage class.  Support classes can be boring to some extent, but the guild always appreciated it.

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

royen1 wrote.

Regarding the existence of the Maker, all evidence for Him is circumstantial at best (much like that for gods in the real world). I'm certain this was intentional. Much like in the real world, the burden of proof in on those who make extraordinary claims.

Actually, there is a lot of evidence for God in the real world, but this is not the place for me to prove atheism to be the irratinonal (and extremelty small) religion that it is. Please keep "real world" religion out of the discussion. There are a number of places on the internet for dabating real world religion, but to my knowledge Bioware has no such forum. If you just feel the overwhelming need for an anti-theism rant you might try expressing yourself on Dawkins.net.

Certainly, since the game does reference the Maker and the Black City can be seen in game, I think the burden of proof lies on you that that the Black City is not what the Chantry claims. Prove that the urn was indeed not a miracle please. Prove Andraste had no powers granted by the Maker.

 The game has gone the route of not having clerics with magic in order to leave the existence of the Maker as questionable so it is a true matter of faith rather than "My god exists because I had tea with him last week and gave me some new spells!" type of thing

I'm sorry, but the game says the Maker was the source of Andraste's powers. Prove the Chantry is lying. You seem to not grasp that something is not so just because you say it is so. Unless you are claiming to be a developer, of course.

There are plenty of other games that have clerics and even a mod that you can dl to have it, so why force it on this game too?  Lets just have at least one game that doesn't go totally with stereotypes please?

1)  When did anyone talk about forcing Bioiware to add clerics? Is there a plan in place to storm Bioware's facilities unless they add clerics?
2) You seem to be under the impression that if a character class is in the gaem, you would be forced to play the class. Let me assure you that that is not the case. I have two SOLO characters going right now. A Two-Handed warrior, and a solo caster mage, both in nightmare.
3) Although I have not played the mod, the modd appears to make the cleric overpowered, based on the comments on the mod page

Modifié par Grumpy Old Wizard, 05 janvier 2010 - 12:12 .

[JaegerBane]

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...
Actually, there is a lot of evidence for God in the real world, but this is not the place for me to prove atheism to be the irratinonal (and extremelty small) religion that it is. Please keep "real world" religion out of the discussion. There are a number of places on the internet for dabating real world religion, but to my knowledge Bioware has no such forum. If you just feel the overwhelming need for an anti-theism rant you might try expressing yourself on Dawkins.net.

Look, without wanting to be blunt, you appear to be intentionally missing his point. *Compared to D&D and The Elder Scrolls*, for instance, there is little evidence to suggest that the maker exists. This isn't a matter of a certain point of view or whatever you're going on about, in this game, you never encounter positive evidence that the Maker actually exists.

True, you encounter some odd events - particularly the Urn quest - but there is no reason to assume that only the Maker could be responsible for what you see there. The fact the chamber is laced with Lyrium implies that it isn't clear cut.  Occam's Razor would certainly think so.

And be careful with the whole real world argument. I'm not sure what you actually understand by 'evidence' but the reason stuff like the idea of the Flying Spaghetti Monster exists is because there's equally as much evidence to prove that that thing exists as there is to prove any other deity. This neither helps your point nor does it strike me as appropriate to bring it up while simultaneously requesting that the guy keep it out of the argument.

Certainly, since the game does reference the Maker and the Black City can be seen in game, I think the burden of proof lies on you that that the Black City is not what the Chantry claims. Prove that the urn was indeed not a miracle please. Prove Andraste had no powers granted by the Maker.

I don't suppose you realise the absurdity of what you're asking here. You're demanding the guy prove a negative?

Consider that the Fade is made of thoughts and spun together by spirits. They look into mortal minds and assemble it according to what they see. What proof do you think you have by claiming the Black City is visible? Most people in ferelden *expect* to see the Black City. Any spirit involved will no doubt become aware of this, and lo and behold, something looking like a black city (but curiously not within reach no matter where you are, as is also told to the masses) appears.

Trying to use what you see in the Fade as proof of anything is a very, very weak argument. Hell, you never even see what a Sloth demon actually looks like in this game despite seeing them everywhere.

Claiming that since some scripture says Andraste had magic powers somehow places the burden of proof on the other is ludicrous. If you want to play that tactic then I'm afraid you first need to address the issue that it is far more likely Andraste was a Mage then she was some sort of holy chosen. Hell, the whole temple in the Urn quest is saturated in Lyrium.

I'm sorry, but the game says the Maker was the source of Andraste's powers. Prove the Chantry is lying. You seem to not grasp that something is not so just because you say it is so. Unless you are claiming to be a developer, of course.

The game also says that First Enchanter Irving might be a blood mage, that people are dragged underground by Darkspawn only for food and that there is no Maker. The problem with using what is said in the game as your get out of jail free card is that you can't simply pick and choose what you want. You have to accept all of it.

And besides, you're still demanding the guy prove a negative. It's a silly direction to go as it means that you're refusing to accept anything the guy could possibly say, which is arrogant in the extreme.

By the same token, prove what that demon says about the Maker - that there is no Maker - is wrong. Go on, prove it. See how pointless the stance is?

Modifié par JaegerBane, 05 janvier 2010 - 12:54 .

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

JaegerBane wrote...
And be careful with the whole real world argument. I'm not sure what you actually understand by 'evidence' but the reason stuff like the idea of the Flying Spaghetti Monster exists is because there's equally as much evidence to prove that that thing exists as there is to prove any other deity. This neither helps your point nor does it strike me as appropriate to bring it up while simultaneously requesting that the guy keep it out of the argument.

An apparent anti-theist made a comment about religion, I responded and asked for no furthur discussion on "real world religion" and you condemn me for responding to his religion bashing? And then you go on with your own religion bashing and unproven statements. Hmmmmm. If you hate real world religion, that is your right, but please take it to Dawkins.net or some other appropriate place. Theis is a GAME site.

.
Look, without wanting to be blunt, you appear to be intentionally missing his point. *Compared to D&D and The Elder Scrolls*, for instance, there is little evidence to suggest that the maker exists. This isn't a matter of a certain point of view or whatever you're going on about, in this game, you never encounter positive evidence that the Maker actually exists.

It is a false allegation to say I intentionally miss anything.

I've already brought up evidence that you have thus far been unable to counter. "Your side" made the statement that the Maker does not exist and the old gods  don't exist. You side has been unable to prove its claim. Sorry, it is not true just because you say so.

Your claim that Andraste was a mage and not a prophet is likewise uproven. The game calls her a prophet, not a mage. Andraste was also entombed in a TEMPLE. Your claims lack any validity.

The Black City also, you calim could be this or that, but all the in game evidence points to it being the forsaken city of the Maker..

By the same token, prove what that demon says about the Maker - that there is no Maker - is wrong. Go on, prove it. See how pointless the stance is?

The ingame evidence is that demons are liars and try to trick people.

[royen1]

Hey, sorry if you feel I targeted your particular deity of choice -- all I meant to saywas that the inspiration for the lack of evidence for the Maker is obviously the real world. Now may I ask you to leave your speculations about my religious beliefs, or lack thereof, out of this discussion?

The fact remains that you can't expect me or anyone else to prove a negative. It's a logical fallacy, specifically "argument from ignorance".

On that same issue, that demons try to decieve people does not constitute proof. You'd have to prove that they are lying on this particular subject, and even then you'd only have proved that the demons are lying (ie, they believe that the maker exists but tell you he doesn't). This still would have no bearing on the actual reality of the maker either way.

Modifié par royen1, 05 janvier 2010 - 11:25 .

[JaegerBane]

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...
An apparent anti-theist made a comment about religion, I responded and asked for no furthur discussion on "real world religion" and you condemn me for responding to his religion bashing? And then you go on with your own religion bashing and unproven statements. Hmmmmm. If you hate real world religion, that is your right, but please take it to Dawkins.net or some other appropriate place. Theis is a GAME site.

Spare me the rhetoric, grumpy. My point is that banging on about religion and then asking the guy to keep it out of the argument is effectively saying your piece and forbidding the guy from answering. It's petty and it's irrelevant. Kindly don't make sweeping assumptions about me or anyone else simply because you can't think of an intelligent response.

It is a false allegation to say I intentionally miss anything.

I've already brought up evidence that you have thus far been unable to counter. "Your side" made the statement that the Maker does not exist and the old gods  don't exist. You side has been unable to prove its claim. Sorry, it is not true just because you say so.

1) I'm not aware of being on anyone's side. My argument is my own and I'd appreciate it if you stick to what I said, not what other people have said that you presume have some sort of alliance with me.

2) Your evidence so far boils down to 'the game says this, the game says that'. You don't seem to comprehend that the game says a great many things, some true, some untrue, some unknown, as is outright admitted by dozens of characters and sources in the game. Therefore it isn't good enough to say 'the game says this so I'm right' as not everything the game says turns out to be true. You need *actual* evidence. If you don't have this accept that it is no more than your opinion and stop belittling anyone who disagrees with you.

For instance, the game (or more accurately, the chantry) says that the Darkspawn are twisted ex-tevinter mages exiled from the Golden City. Maybe they are, maybe they aren't, but the only actual solid evidence we have for where they come from is what we find in the dead trenches. That they come from infected female victims who have undergone mutation into Broodmothers. 

Can you not see the distinction? Nowhere is it proven that the darkspawn come from the black city. Some characters claim they do, some mention uncertainty, but you never actually get any hard evidence.

Your claim that Andraste was a mage and not a prophet is likewise uproven. The game calls her a prophet, not a mage. Andraste was also entombed in a TEMPLE. Your claims lack any validity.

Depending on who you talk to the game calls Andraste everything from a saviour to a fake. At one point she is even considered to be a Dragon. I would assume you have something a little better than simply some reference in the game says she's a prophet. You don't even meet the woman. According to your silly logic Andraste must be a dragon, as Kolgrim, a bonfide game 'source', says so.

I'm not actually claiming that she's a mage. All I'm saying is that there is more evidence to say that she was, from her abilities to her temple to Occam's Razor itself, and therefore simply banging on about what some character's opinion is meaningless.

The Black City also, you calim could be this or that, but all the in game evidence points to it being the forsaken city of the Maker..

What all game evidence? Are you even going to answer the issue I raised with an actual reason or are you going to simply keep your fingers in your ears screaming 'lalala'?

By the same token, prove what that demon says about the Maker - that there is no Maker - is wrong. Go on, prove it. See how pointless the stance is?

The ingame evidence is that demons are liars and try to trick people.

There is not one jot of evidence to suggest that Rage demons are liars. In fact there is significant evidence to suggest that they aren't intelligent enough, being described as mindless and anger-fuelled. You do, in fact, only see one instance of 'lying' from a demon and frankly, it's a lot closer to brainwashing. And that isn't even from a demon of the same type as the one in the Orphanage.

As I said, it's a pointless stance to claim that simply because a character says something, it must be true. Characters in the game can be wrong, as is clear to anyone.

Modifié par JaegerBane, 05 janvier 2010 - 11:33 .

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

JaegerBane wrote...

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...
An apparent anti-theist made a comment about religion, I responded and asked for no furthur discussion on "real world religion" and you condemn me for responding to his religion bashing? And then you go on with your own religion bashing and unproven statements. Hmmmmm. If you hate real world religion, that is your right, but please take it to Dawkins.net or some other appropriate place. Theis is a GAME site.

Spare me the rhetoric, grumpy. My point is that banging on about religion and then asking the guy to keep it out of the argument is effectively saying your piece and forbidding the guy from answering. It's petty and it's irrelevant. Kindly don't make sweeping assumptions about me or anyone else simply because you can't think of an intelligent response.

So ;what you are saying is anti-theists should get the first and last word, eh? He got in his religion bashing, I responded and asked him to refrain from furthur religion bashing. But anti-theists seem to have an irrational uncontrollable compulsion to express their anti-theist bigotry against religion. Sorry, when anti-theists bash religion I will likely respond.

.2) Your evidence so far boils down to 'the game says this, the game says that'. You don't seem to comprehend that the game says a great many things, some true, some untrue, some unknown, as is outright admitted by dozens of characters and sources in the game. Therefore it isn't good enough to say 'the game says this so I'm right' as not everything the game says turns out to be true. You need *actual* evidence. If you don't have this accept that it is no more than your opinion and stop belittling anyone who disagrees with you.
 

You seem to lack the ability to comrprhend that something is not true just because you claim it to be true.

When you or "your side" says that Maker does not exist and the old gods don't exist you have to back that up. It is not true just because you say so.

Again, when you say Andraste did not have divine powers, you have to back that up. The evidence in the game points to her having divine powers and the urn miracle reinforces that.

For instance, the game (or more accurately, the chantry) says that the Darkspawn are twisted ex-tevinter mages exiled from the Golden City

No, it says the mages that tried to usurp heaven were cast out as corrupted twisted creatures, that they were the first darkspawn, and they spread the blight to others
.

 Maybe they are, maybe they aren't, but the only actual solid evidence we have for where they come from is what we find in the dead trenches. That they come from infected female victims who have undergone mutation into Broodmothers. 

I don't care if you claim they came from a purple dinosaur named Barney as long as you have in game evidence of your claim. Unfortunately, there seems to be no evidence to back up your claims.

Depending on who you talk to the game calls Andraste everything from a saviour to a fake. At one point she is even considered to be a Dragon. I would assume you have something a little better than simply some reference in the game says she's a prophet. You don't even meet the woman. According to your silly logic Andraste must be a dragon, as Kolgrim, a bonfide game 'source', says so.

I'm not actually claiming that she's a mage. All I'm saying is that there is more evidence to say that she was, from her abilities to her temple to Occam's Razor itself, and therefore simply banging on about what some character's opinion is meaningless.

Nah, there is ZILCH evidence that she was a mage. The in game evidence says she was a prophet of the Maker and had divine powers. The urn backs that up.

LOL! You are not seriously saying it is likely she returned as the high dragon. LOL!

What all game evidence? Are you even going to answer the issue I raised with an actual reason or are you going to simply keep your fingers in your ears screaming 'lalala'?

Nah, you and your side are ones sticking your fingers in your ears and shouting lalalaaaaa!  The in game references to the Black City say it was the city of the Maker. Present your evidence that it is something else.

There is not one jot of evidence to suggest that Rage demons are liars. In fact there is significant evidence to suggest that they aren't intelligent enough, being described as mindless and anger-fuelled. You do, in fact, only see one instance of 'lying' from a demon and frankly, it's a lot closer to brainwashing. And that isn't even from a demon of the same type as the one in the Orphanage.

Oh please, all the demons are presented as being immoral beings, liars, and murderers. Demons are not trustworthy.

Oh, you seem to be confused about no instance of a demon lying in the game. Didn't you play through the mage tower? The demon was clearly doing quite a bit of lying while brainwashing. And are you claiming the nightmares generated by the sloth demon had no lies? Please.

[ladydesire]

Good grief (is there such a thing as bad grief?)... Whether or not Andraste had divine powers (maybe she did, as the Chantry claims) and whether or not her ashes were responsible for the healing miracle (they could have been, or it could have been the belief that they could heal), it doesn't change the fact that the developers want displays of Divine Power to be exceedingly rare, compared to other RPGs, or they would have provided a class (like the Cleric that is the topic of this thread) that had magic that was from a divine source.

[AntiChri5]

Grumpy, do you actually read before posting? Or even while posting? Is it possible for us to change our names for this site? If so you should consider changing yours to Grumpy Old Preist.