384 réponses à ce sujet

[AntiChri5]

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...

But if they have no divine magic then they have no powers from their god, and the gods in this game don't bestow powers.  And why would you want them to be identical to every other implementation of clerics in other games anyway?  Why not try something new?  Like a preacher who shouts his head off about how people are sinners for instance?  Much more realistic and fun.

And so the anti-theists bring in their hate rhetoric once again. Take your biggoted comments about real world religion elsewhere please. It is not appropriate for this forum.

Oh, you calime that the gods in the game don't grant powers. But Andraste was granted powers by the Maker. So the Maker could grant others powers or the other gods could do so.

You are the first one to have brought real world religion into this by flaming atheists because you had no argument.

[Wolf Northwind]

I think that adding 'god given' powers would actually answer the question of 'is the maker actually real' which is kind of an important ambiguity in the lore. So really you'd be looking at a mage in armour with some combat skills, which might just be a progression of the existing mage subclasses.

[Wolf Northwind]

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...

Again, when you say Andraste did not have divine powers, you have to back that up. The evidence in the game points to her having divine powers and the urn miracle reinforces that.

Skirting the spoiler rules a little....

It's suggested more than once that Andraste was actually just a very powerful mage, and the healing 'miracle' may just be an enchantment. Likewise there are suggestions that the 'old gods' were merely very ancient and powerful but entirely 'natural' dragons.

The only clear evidence for the Maker in the game is the black city, and that may prove to be a red herring.

[Wolf Northwind]

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...

Prove that lyrium is the only basis of magic in the game. There are Dalish mages and other non-Circle mages. Prove that the basis of their magic is lyrium please.

Prove that the Maker is not real. Why can the "Black City" be seen in the fade? Prove the Chantry is wrong about their explaination of the Black City. Prove Andraste had no Maker-given powers. Prove the ""old gods" are not real. Prove Leliani is just a delusional idiot.

Prove that the black city is not actually a giant blancmange factory staffed by eight foot badger-men with a penchat for pea soup and three eyes. Just because an organisation makes a claim does not mean it's true. This is not anti-theism, it is simple deductive reasoning. This is the reason that anecdotal evidence is not enough to gain a conviction on its own in any respectable court.

The fade is the source of magic, not lyrium, elves and men travel to the fade while dwarves do not and dwarves cannot do magic. The evidence suggests therefore that there is a single common source of magical power.

[Wolf Northwind]

OK, rather than continued patchwork quoting lets consider the following information:

Grumpy, you are asking for evidence that claims made by the chantry in the game are untrue. This is simply not possible. To use a real world analogy, you, as an apparently well-read individual are aware of the parody known as the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Regardless of your own religious views I defy you to disprove the existence of the spaghetti monster.

The same situation is true within the game. One group of people is looking to an individual and claiming that this individual was granted divine powers by a creator-deity. The only evidence we are really presented with however is the historical record of Andraste's own existence (contemporary accounts, battlefield evidence or whatever it is assumed exists and we have to accept that as beyond the scope of the game to actually show us).

The claim is made that she has spectacular powers, but this is never detailed. The only true evidence we see that she was anything more than a housewife with a sword is in her temple. This also provides only questions. The guardian has lived for an exceptionally long time. A certain Elven NPC has used blood magic to extend his life indeffinitely. No god-given power required. It is shown that where the veil to the fade is weak spirits can remain (the orphanage) so the ghosts in the temple once again do not require divine powers. Healing magic is common among mages and can be provided by spirits, and therefore the ashes do not require divine power.

Everything about Andraste can be compared to other events in the game, all of which are explained without the need for divine power. So at best, the existance of the maker requires faith (where faith is belief without evidence in the epistemological sense).

While it is clearly beyond possibility to prove that the Maker does not exist you are claiming events and lore in the game as evidence that the Maker does exist. There is no actual evidence in the game at all to prove that the Maker exists and this is the point you seem to be belligerently ignoring. This matter of faith is central to the games history and the ideologies of several characters. Lelliana is strong because of her strength of faith and not because of her acceptance of any clear evidence - this is why I found her (personally as an atheist) to be one of the more interesting and challenging, not to mention sweet characters. Regardless of my opinion on the Maker, Lelliana was defined by her devotion.

Modifié par Wolf Northwind, 06 janvier 2010 - 01:27 .

[SymbolicGamer]

There's a cleric in the restricted section of the camp at Ostagar.

[ladydesire]

SymbolicGamer wrote...

There's a cleric in the restricted section of the camp at Ostagar.

Yes, but not the kind of cleric that they seem to want (the toolset shows that character to be a Warrior class).

[borelocin]

The traditional D&D Cleric doesn't fit the setting. Invoking the power of the Maker does not produce "Divine" magical effects, and I for one like the change of pace.



Put simply, the world of Dragon age has an inactive deity who may or may not actually exist.

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

AntiChri5 wrote...

Grumpy, do you actually read before posting? Or even while posting? Is it possible for us to change our names for this site? If so you should consider changing yours to Grumpy Old Preist.

And perhaps you should change your name to "Anti-theist." I suspect your name "Anti-Chris" is short for anti-Christ.

You are the first one to have brought real world religion into this by flaming atheists because you had no argument.

You sir are not telling the truth.Refer to royen1's post that I responded to. He tok his jabs at real world relgion, I responded and asked that real world religion be kept out of the discussion.

Grumpy, you are asking for evidence that claims made by the chantry in the game are untrue. This is simply not possible. To use a real world analogy, you, as an apparently well-read individual are aware of the parody known as the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Regardless of your own religious views I defy you to disprove the existence of the spaghetti monster.

Very well, as I said, the anti-theists just are unable to keep real world religion our of discussions it seems. A psychotic disorder perhaps.

The FSM is a being supposedly made of plasta and meatballs. Pasta and meatballs are composed of matter.

The laws of thermodynamics make it clear that matter and energy are not eternal can't produce iteslf out of absolute nothing with no cause. The FSM would need a cause and thus can't be God.

This also exposes the irrationality of atheists. In order to be an atheist one must reject the laws of thermodynamics, the observations of the Hubble Telescope and the information obtained from the COBE satellite. Atheism essentially died as a rational religion in 1992 when it was proven beyond any doubt that the universe had a beginning. Prior to that time a common argument of atheists was the the universe was eternal.

On the other hand, the God portrayed in the Bible is immaterial, timeless, spaceless, and self-existant. The first cause of the universe had to be all these things. The FSM does not match these requirements. The God of the Bible is a far better explaination for the universe than the FSM or any other silly thing an atheist may dream up.

The claim is made that she has spectacular powers, but this is never detailed. The only true evidence we see that she was anything more than a housewife with a sword is in her temple

You are making an irrational claim. You just admitted that the records indicate she had powers granted by the Maker. Typical housewives don't have divine powers. A typical housewife would not be entombed in a huge and majestic temple. The ashes of a typical housewife would not cure the deathly ill. A guardian would not stand guard for many centruries guarding the ashes of a typical housewife.

The guardian has lived for an exceptionally long time. A certain Elven NPC has used blood magic to extend his life indeffinitely. No god-given power required

Lol! You are claiming the guardian is a blood mage?!?!?!

While it is clearly beyond possibility to prove that the Maker does not exist you are claiming events and lore in the game as evidence that the Maker does exist

"Your side" claimed the Maker does not exist and the old gods don't exist and Adraste did nothing miraculous. I called "your side" to produce evidence and so far none has been forthcoming.

The in game evidence is couter to the claims of "your side."

Modifié par Grumpy Old Wizard, 06 janvier 2010 - 02:40 .

[AntiChri5]

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...

AntiChri5 wrote...

Grumpy, do you actually read before posting? Or even while posting? Is it possible for us to change our names for this site? If so you should consider changing yours to Grumpy Old Preist.

And perhaps you should change your name to "Anti-theist." I suspect your name "Anti-Chris" is short for anti-Christ.

You are the first one to have brought real world religion into this by flaming atheists because you had no argument.

You sir are not telling the truth.Refer to royen1's post that I responded to. He tok his jabs at real world relgion, I responded and asked that real world religion be kept out of the discussion.

Grumpy, you are asking for evidence that claims made by the chantry in the game are untrue. This is simply not possible. To use a real world analogy, you, as an apparently well-read individual are aware of the parody known as the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Regardless of your own religious views I defy you to disprove the existence of the spaghetti monster.

Very well, as I said, the anti-theists just are unable to keep real world religion our of discussions it seems. A psychotic disorder perhaps.

The FSM is a being supposedly made of plasta and meatballs. Pasta and meatballs are composed of matter.

The laws of thermodynamics make it clear that matter and energy are not eternal can't produce iteslf out of absolute nothing with no cause. The FSM would need a cause and thus can't be God.

This also exposes the irrationality of atheists. In order to be an atheist one must reject the laws of thermodynamics, the observations of the Hubble Telescope and the information obtained from the COBE satellite. Atheism essentially died as a rational religion in 1992 when it was proven beyond any doubt that the universe had a beginning. Prior to that time a common argument of atheists was the the universe was eternal.

On the other hand, the God portrayed in the Bible is immaterial, timeless, spaceless, and self-existant. The first cause of the universe had to be all these things. The FSM does not match these requirements. The God of the Bible is a far better explaination for the universe than the FSM or any other silly thing an atheist may dream up.

The claim is made that she has spectacular powers, but this is never detailed. The only true evidence we see that she was anything more than a housewife with a sword is in her temple

You are making an irrational claim. You just admitted that the records indicate she had powers granted by the Maker. Typical housewives don't have divine powers. A typical housewife would not be entombed in a huge and majestic temple. The ashes of a typical housewife would not cure the deathly ill. A guardian would not stand guard for many centruries guarding the ashes of a typical housewife.

The guardian has lived for an exceptionally long time. A certain Elven NPC has used blood magic to extend his life indeffinitely. No god-given power required

Lol! You are claiming the guardian is a blood mage?!?!?!

While it is clearly beyond possibility to prove that the Maker does not exist you are claiming events and lore in the game as evidence that the Maker does exist

"Your side" claimed the Maker does not exist and the old gods don't exist and Adraste did nothing miraculous. I called "your side" to produce evidence and so far none has been forthcoming.

The in game evidence is couter to the claims of "your side."

I went through and checked, Grumpy, The quote i used is the very first mention of real world religion (unless you went back and edited it after my quote).

And i already explained my name in the Explain Your Name thread i made in the Off Topic Forums http://social.biowar.../index/502961/1 Feel free to contribute

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

AntiChri5 wrote...

I went through and checked, Grumpy, The quote i used is the very first mention of real world religion (unless you went back and edited it after my quote).

And i already explained my name in the Explain Your Name thread i made in the Off Topic Forums http://social.biowar.../index/502961/1 Feel free to contribute

Here was what royen1 wrote and my response to him. I have no desire to debate real world religion on a game forum but neither will I stand by while jabs are taken at real world religion.

royen1 wrote.

Regarding the existence of the Maker, all evidence for Him is circumstantial at best (much like that for gods in the real world). I'm certain this was intentional. Much like in the real world, the burden of proof in on those who make extraordinary claims.

Actually, there is a lot of evidence for God in the real world, but this is not the place for me to prove atheism to be the irratinonal (and extremelty small) religion that it is. Please keep "real world" religion out of the discussion. There are a number of places on the internet for dabating real world religion, but to my knowledge Bioware has no such forum. If you just feel the overwhelming need for an anti-theism rant you might try expressing yourself on Dawkins.net.

I see from the link that your name is based on your real world name of Christ and the fact that you are an atheist.

I've used "Grumpy Old Wizard" for many years. Since Heroes of Might and Magic 2 came out.in 1996.

[AntiChri5]

I was referring to a different quote, not the one you referred to but the one i qouted. I even quoted the statement which led to your quote.

The name thing was a joke. I thought it ironic that you were arguing for divine magic instead of just arcane magic when you yourself are a wizard.

Edit:
My name: yeah its just a pun to play on that irony. An atheist cannot believe in an antichrist because that requires a Christ

Modifié par AntiChri5, 06 janvier 2010 - 03:16 .

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

Here is a quote that goes even furthur back, on page 3.

But if they have no divine magic then they have no powers from their god, and the gods in this game don't bestow powers. And why would you want them to be identical to every other implementation of clerics in other games anyway? Why not try something new? Like a preacher who shouts his head off about how people are sinners for instance? Much more realistic and fun.

And so the anti-theists bring in their hate rhetoric once again. Take your biggoted comments about real world religion elsewhere please. It is not appropriate for this forum.



Oh, you calime that the gods in the game don't grant powers. But Andraste was granted powers by the Maker. So the Maker could grant others powers or the other gods could do so.

My first character in a fantasy game is usually an arcane magic type character. I prefer magic and stealth characters to warriors. I'm having fun with my solo NM Two-handed Dwarf Templar/Champion though.



In debates in Heroes of Might and Magic 2 (a fantasy strategy game) my opponenet called me a grumpy old wizard and so I changed my screen name to "Grumpy Old Wizard" and ran with it. Heh. I was agruing for the wizard faction's troops being superior to the warlock faction's troops and he was arguing the opposite. We went on to become quite good friends.

[AntiChri5]

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...

Here is a quote that goes even furthur back, on page 3.

But if they have no divine magic then they have no powers from their god, and the gods in this game don't bestow powers. And why would you want them to be identical to every other implementation of clerics in other games anyway? Why not try something new? Like a preacher who shouts his head off about how people are sinners for instance? Much more realistic and fun.

And so the anti-theists bring in their hate rhetoric once again. Take your biggoted comments about real world religion elsewhere please. It is not appropriate for this forum.

Oh, you calime that the gods in the game don't grant powers. But Andraste was granted powers by the Maker. So the Maker could grant others powers or the other gods could do so.

My first character in a fantasy game is usually an arcane magic type character. I prefer magic and stealth characters to warriors. I'm having fun with my solo NM Two-handed Dwarf Templar/Champion though.

In debates in Heroes of Might and Magic 2 (a fantasy strategy game) my opponenet called me a grumpy old wizard and so I changed my screen name to "Grumpy Old Wizard" and ran with it. Heh. I was agruing for the wizard faction's troops being superior to the warlock faction's troops and he was arguing the opposite. We went on to become quite good friends.

Yes that is the quote i was referring to. You brought up religion.

The first character i always play is a paladin type. NWN 1, NWN 2, Diablo 2 hell even Morrowind and Oblivion. And in DA:O Sword and board human noble templar/champion

Good then there is hope for us yet.

[Schneidend]

Grumpy, you keep mentioning the urn. Is the fact that the area is saturated with lyrium not enough to cast doubt on whether the urn is in any way "divine"?

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

Yes that is the quote i was referring to. You brought up religion.

You mean I responded to him bringing up religion when he said, " Why not try something new? Like a preacher who shouts his head off about how people are sinners for instance? Much more realistic and fun."

I like paladins too. I haven't played NWN2 in a while but one of my playthroughs was as a paladin. Kaedrin has a nice PRC pack you might be interested in if you don't use it already.  

http://nwn2customcontent.wikidot.com/

Modifié par Grumpy Old Wizard, 06 janvier 2010 - 04:09 .

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

Schneidend wrote...

Grumpy, you keep mentioning the urn. Is the fact that the area is saturated with lyrium not enough to cast doubt on whether the urn is in any way "divine"?

No. Mages use lyrium potions all the time. If lyrium were the anwer everybody they walked by would be healed and the mages woould be pretty popular folks.

[Schneidend]

You have to dilute lyrium to make those potions, otherwise you'd boil your intestines by drinking the stuff. A concentrated supply of lyrium irradiating the ashes of somebody who may or may not have been a very powerful mage could lead to some interesting, even "miraculous" results.

[David Gaider]

Clerics in the classic sense of D&D won't work in Dragon Age. There is no proof of the Divine, no 'holy power" as it were, any were such power to suddenly manifest itself that would pretty much handle the issue of the Maker's existence, wouldn't it? And that's not going to happen -- the existence of the Divine is a matter of Faith. Were the Maker to suddenly let his power be felt (especially in such a mundane manner) that would only call into question the truth of his status as a deity (as opposed to some powerful, extraplanar being... there is a difference, after all).

That does not mean that Clerics couldn't potentially exist as a class, however. They would not be the recipients of holy spells, but that doesn't mean they couldn't be a form of warrior or have access to some form of magic-like talents -- we would be talking, after all, about Clerics with some form of special training and not your average priest in a Chantry. Granting all Chantry priests some form of special power just isn't going to happen, period.

Would we create such an order of Cleric with said special training, inserting them into the world? Probably not. I get people liking D&D Clerics, but what they do to the issue of faith in the D&D world just isn't acceptable in Dragon Age. We're not apt to break the entire setting for the love of another setting's class -- though this doesn't mean we couldn't ever have some kind of "holy crusader" class; it just means such a class wouldn't have holy power stemming directly from some deity.

[AntiChri5]

David Gaider wrote...

Clerics in the classic sense of D&D won't work in Dragon Age. There is no proof of the Divine, no 'holy power" as it were, any were such power to suddenly manifest itself that would pretty much handle the issue of the Maker's existence, wouldn't it? And that's not going to happen -- the existence of the Divine is a matter of Faith. Were the Maker to suddenly let his power be felt (especially in such a mundane manner) that would only call into question the truth of his status as a deity (as opposed to some powerful, extraplanar being... there is a difference, after all).

That does not mean that Clerics couldn't potentially exist as a class, however. They would not be the recipients of holy spells, but that doesn't mean they couldn't be a form of warrior or have access to some form of magic-like talents -- we would be talking, after all, about Clerics with some form of special training and not your average priest in a Chantry. Granting all Chantry priests some form of special power just isn't going to happen, period.

Would we create such an order of Cleric with said special training, inserting them into the world? Probably not. I get people liking D&D Clerics, but what they do to the issue of faith in the D&D world just isn't acceptable in Dragon Age. We're not apt to break the entire setting for the love of another setting's class -- though this doesn't mean we couldn't ever have some kind of "holy crusader" class; it just means such a class wouldn't have holy power stemming directly from some deity.

Well that put this thread to rest. Still, for those who NEED a cleric there is that mod, as well as DnD games (which have not stopped existing).

[fanman72]

David Gaider wrote...

Clerics in the classic sense of D&D won't work in Dragon Age. There is no proof of the Divine, no 'holy power" as it were, any were such power to suddenly manifest itself that would pretty much handle the issue of the Maker's existence, wouldn't it? And that's not going to happen -- the existence of the Divine is a matter of Faith. Were the Maker to suddenly let his power be felt (especially in such a mundane manner) that would only call into question the truth of his status as a deity (as opposed to some powerful, extraplanar being... there is a difference, after all).

That does not mean that Clerics couldn't potentially exist as a class, however. They would not be the recipients of holy spells, but that doesn't mean they couldn't be a form of warrior or have access to some form of magic-like talents -- we would be talking, after all, about Clerics with some form of special training and not your average priest in a Chantry. Granting all Chantry priests some form of special power just isn't going to happen, period.

Would we create such an order of Cleric with said special training, inserting them into the world? Probably not. I get people liking D&D Clerics, but what they do to the issue of faith in the D&D world just isn't acceptable in Dragon Age. We're not apt to break the entire setting for the love of another setting's class -- though this doesn't mean we couldn't ever have some kind of "holy crusader" class; it just means such a class wouldn't have holy power stemming directly from some deity.

Even if the Maker never shows himself, I thought Andraste's ashes were proof of evidence of for the maker??  Why else would charred remains of somebody who died long ago work in healing the sick?

To the OP - Spirit healer specialization is close enough to a "Cleric", even if it doesn't draw its power from dieties

P.S.  Are we going to see and roam the Black City in later Dragon Age games or novels????

Modifié par fanman72, 06 janvier 2010 - 04:34 .

[Schneidend]

fanman72 wrote...

Even if the Maker never shows himself, I thought Andraste's ashes were proof of evidence of for the maker??  Why else would charred remains of somebody who died long ago work in healing the sick?

Those charred remains were irradiated with concentrated lyrium.

[fanman72]

Schneidend wrote...

fanman72 wrote...

Even if the Maker never shows himself, I thought Andraste's ashes were proof of evidence of for the maker??  Why else would charred remains of somebody who died long ago work in healing the sick?

Those charred remains were irradiated with concentrated lyrium.

Maybe I'll pay more attention my second run through.  Still quite a coincidence, if lyrium irradiation was the reason behind the healing powers of the ashes, it easily could have set the Arl on fire or something as well.  I'm crossing my fingers that Bioware keeps the existence of god(s) a mystery in the DA world, just like in reality. 

[Schneidend]

It's also quite possible that Andrastae was an extremely powerful mage, and thus some of her talent lingered in her ashes, and was amplified by the lyrium radiation.

[David Gaider]

fanman72 wrote...
Even if the Maker never shows himself, I thought Andraste's ashes were proof of evidence of for the maker??  Why else would charred remains of somebody who died long ago work in healing the sick?

I'm sure that some people can interpret proof however they wish, but the assumption that the power of the ashes stems from divine power as opposed to more mundane healing magic stems from the idea (or claim, if you prefer) that those are the ashes of Andraste and nothing more. Proof of the supernatural is hardly proof of the divine, especially when the difference between the ashes and a regular healing spell is a degree in potency. You may ascribe that power to whatever you wish, but so long as the truth can be argued it's existence as proof of anything is questionable.

P.S.  Are we going to see and roam the Black City in later Dragon Age games or novels????

I don't know. Maybe? Entering the Fade physically in any capacity has only ever been done once in history, so it's not exactly just a place you can visit casually.