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Clerics...Clerics...and again Clerics!


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#176
bzombo

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David Gaider wrote...

Clerics in the classic sense of D&D won't work in Dragon Age. There is no proof of the Divine, no 'holy power" as it were, any were such power to suddenly manifest itself that would pretty much handle the issue of the Maker's existence, wouldn't it? And that's not going to happen -- the existence of the Divine is a matter of Faith. Were the Maker to suddenly let his power be felt (especially in such a mundane manner) that would only call into question the truth of his status as a deity (as opposed to some powerful, extraplanar being... there is a difference, after all).

That does not mean that Clerics couldn't potentially exist as a class, however. They would not be the recipients of holy spells, but that doesn't mean they couldn't be a form of warrior or have access to some form of magic-like talents -- we would be talking, after all, about Clerics with some form of special training and not your average priest in a Chantry. Granting all Chantry priests some form of special power just isn't going to happen, period.

Would we create such an order of Cleric with said special training, inserting them into the world? Probably not. I get people liking D&D Clerics, but what they do to the issue of faith in the D&D world just isn't acceptable in Dragon Age. We're not apt to break the entire setting for the love of another setting's class -- though this doesn't mean we couldn't ever have some kind of "holy crusader" class; it just means such a class wouldn't have holy power stemming directly from some deity.


well, instead of a "cleric", why not splitting out the spirit healer specialization out as its own class with cleric inspired fighting skills/talents? you could call it a "healer" and make it its own class.

#177
The Capital Gaultier

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Still looking for a class to fit the Cleric role, which is surprisingly void.

#178
hardvice

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What's so great about the ambiguity of religion in the setting is that it allows for such diversity of beliefs, and that diversity allows for belief to be an important aspect of people's character.  That some people can see the Black City and the Urn and visions and find proof enough to have faith, while others see them and find a perfectly logical explanation within the other rules of the world is frankly pretty awesome.  Like most of the lore, nothing's really certain -- everyone has their beliefs, and everyone thinks they have plenty of evidence, but it's all still open to other interpretations.  

Think of the two very different stories of Flemeth's origin we get from Leiliana and Morrigan.  In all likelihood, neither one is perfectly true, and we'll never really know the absolute truth, and that actually makes the story far more interesting: it's a partly-illuminated mystery.  Frankly, that different *players* can look at the same in-game evidence and draw differing conclusions is a pretty impressive sign that they've handled it just right.

So what would actual, present-day, confirmed divine Chantry magic do to that?  Well, first, there'd be no point in developing the differing religions of the Qunari or the dwarves or the elves, since there'd be no meaningful uncertainty--everybody would just believe in the Maker, since He'd be standing there waving at you.  Nobody would probably bother talking about their beliefs at all, since it'd no longer be a matter of faith.  There'd be no real uncertainty to Leiliana's character--anyone who doubted the veracity of her visions could just go ask the Chantry if they were true, since they have the Big Guy's direct line.

It's no accident that fantasy settings usually end up assuming all faiths are valid, that there are dozens of gods out there competing for attention, because a 100% proven-beyond-a-doubt monotheistic deity makes for a pretty boring setting.  It's pretty hard to create any kind of moral diversity, or really even to justify bad behaviour if a benevolent God is hanging out down at the Chantry signing autographs.  

And the severely polytheistic settings like D&D aren't much better; with so many competing (and frankly often contradictory) faiths out there, all wielding divine power, gods become little more than superheroic spell dispensers. It's really hard to get worked up in service to one god when he's part of a divine bowling league, and really, at that point clerics are just mages with better costumes and a demanding boss.

That said, for story purposes, a well-done cleric-type character could be interesting, too, provided the air of uncertainty is maintained.  Are they really wielding divine power?  Are they just a mage with relgious delusions?  Are they a well-orchestrated fraud?  Are their powers coming from somewhere else altogether?  Do they even know the truth?

*That* said, I'm not sure there's really much of a game-mechanic need for a new class, even if you wanted to add one to the story.  Clerics as armored, fighting spellcasters tend to be overpowered unless you start applying a lot of really arbitrary limitations (like the distinction between "cleric magic" and "wizard magic" in D&D, or the "you can smack them to jelly with a mace, but not stab them with a knife" rule).  Personally, I like that DA:O doesn't employ these arbitrary distinctions, but instead makes certain choices more viable than others.  (If you want to put all Morrigan's points in strength, stick her in full plate, and give her a bow, go for it.  She'll be crap as a mage and crap as an archer, but live how you want to live.)  

As for the Arcane Warrior being too encumbered to be a sword-and-spellcaster, you don't actually *have* to use Combat Magic.  If you want to wear armor, swing a mace/sword/axe, and cast spells, go for it.  If you want to be *really good* at swinging said mace/sword/axe, use Combat Magic, but that skill comes at a price (and it should!)  If you just want to be really good at everything all the time with no penalties, then you're just min/maxing.  Install the overpowered cleric mod and have at it.  To my mind, an Arcane Warrior is a pretty well-balanced warrior/mage (and by extension, warrior/cleric)--you can focus on being a warrior, you can focus on casting spells, or you can do a little of both, all without any one choice being too powerful.  You pick the balance of mana, fatigue, spellcasting, armor, and weapon prowess you want.

On the other hand, Clerics as just divine spellcasters could be accomplished with mages.  I mean, a new mage origin story and specialization for a religious "apostate" would present exactly the right uncertainty: it's possible they're divinely gifted, and it's possible they're not.  Some people will believe them; some won't.  A couple new cleric-y spells that *might* be gifts of the Maker or *might* be a heretofor undiscovered school of magic, and Bob's your uncle.  Lots of the existing spells are perfectly OK for a cleric (I mean, is there really a game-mechanic difference between calling down *divine* fire and calling down *magical* fire?), and since the new spells are part of a specialization, you'd have to accept the Maker as your personal lord and saviour to get 'em, no?

As for the mage spell pool not being deep enough to cover clerics--well, there could always be more spells.  Howabout some nature spells that focus on plants?  Howabout summoning something other than skeletons or ranger pets?  Howabout water magic?  The thing about magic is there's always more you can do with it, and I'm just not seeing a good enough game mechanic reason that new possibly-but-not-necessarily divine magic can't be done within the rubric of the classes we have.

Modifié par hardvice, 06 janvier 2010 - 07:25 .


#179
Schneidend

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The Capital Gaultier wrote...

Still looking for a class to fit the Cleric role, which is surprisingly void.


I still don't understand what it is you seem to think Clerics do that Arcane Warrior/Spirit Healer Mages are lacking.

#180
The Capital Gaultier

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Schneidend wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

Still looking for a class to fit the Cleric role, which is surprisingly void.


I still don't understand what it is you seem to think Clerics do that Arcane Warrior/Spirit Healer Mages are lacking.

I've spelled it out fairly clearly, but let me do so again.  What I'd like to see is a caster/melee hybrid class.  Unlike Arcane Warriors, this class would be good at both casting spells and melee combat.  Ideally, this would include capabilities to reduce or eliminate fatigue and focus on spells that are instant cast with plenty of buffs.

#181
Schneidend

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Arcane Warriors ARE good at casting both spells and melee. That is the point of the specialization. You don't need to keep Combat Magic on all the time. Simply turn it off when you need to cast some spells, or just leave it on and understand that sustained abilities have costs to keep them balanced. The Warden Commander's armor set from Soldier's Peak will drastically reduce the costs of all talents, including sustainable ones. The Mage spells offer a number of buffs, such as telekinetic weapons, and the Arcane Warrior tree itself is comprised solely of a bunch of self-buffs.

#182
The Capital Gaultier

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Schneidend wrote...

Arcane Warriors ARE good at casting both spells and melee. That is the point of the specialization. You don't need to keep Combat Magic on all the time. Simply turn it off when you need to cast some spells, or just leave it on and understand that sustained abilities have costs to keep them balanced. The Warden Commander's armor set from Soldier's Peak will drastically reduce the costs of all talents, including sustainable ones. The Mage spells offer a number of buffs, such as telekinetic weapons, and the Arcane Warrior tree itself is comprised solely of a bunch of self-buffs.

Well, it's built wrong if it's supposed to be good at both.  Keeping Combat Magic off makes you poor at melee.  Keeping it on makes you poor at casting.

#183
Schneidend

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Then be dynamic and use your abilities wisely. Don't "keep" Combat Magic off or on. Turn it off and on as needed, casting spells while it is on cooldown. Hell, with the Warden Commander's set on, you could probably cast spells while Combat Magic is on and hardly notice the difference.

#184
hardvice

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The Capital Gaultier wrote...

Well, it's built wrong if it's supposed to be good at both.  Keeping Combat Magic off makes you poor at melee.  Keeping it on makes you poor at casting.


But that's the point.  Being a great warrior means being lousy at magic.  Being a great mage means being lousy at combat.  Being decent at both means being great at neither (and that's the arcane warrior).

Being great at both means you're just interested in playing an unbalanced, overpowered character.

#185
The Capital Gaultier

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hardvice wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

Well, it's built wrong if it's supposed to be good at both.  Keeping Combat Magic off makes you poor at melee.  Keeping it on makes you poor at casting.


But that's the point.  Being a great warrior means being lousy at magic.  Being a great mage means being lousy at combat.  Being decent at both means being great at neither (and that's the arcane warrior).

Being great at both means you're just interested in playing an unbalanced, overpowered character.

Exactly.  That's why I want a new class.

#186
hardvice

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The Capital Gaultier wrote...

Exactly.  That's why I want a new class.


An unbalanced, overpowered new class.  Awesome.

#187
The Capital Gaultier

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hardvice wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

Exactly.  That's why I want a new class.


An unbalanced, overpowered new class.  Awesome.

You forget that a different spell set would not be so imbalancing, depending on choices.

#188
Schneidend

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Gaultier, The Arcane Warrior is fine at both spellcasting and melee combat. And, since you ignored my post on how to do so, well, I'm going to assume the fault lies with some deficiency you have as a player. You must be doing something wrong.

#189
The Capital Gaultier

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Schneidend wrote...

Gaultier, The Arcane Warrior is fine at both spellcasting and melee combat. And, since you ignored my post on how to do so, well, I'm going to assume the fault lies with some deficiency you have as a player. You must be doing something wrong.

No, it does not do fine at both melee and spellcasting.  Like I said, without Combat Magic, you are a poor melee fighter.  That's not something a player can correct.

Make no mistake - the class itself is overpowered.  It's super powerful.  My point is that it does not play like a caster/melee, not that the class is deficient.

Modifié par The Capital Gaultier, 06 janvier 2010 - 08:11 .


#190
reepneep

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The Capital Gaultier wrote...

hardvice wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

Exactly.  That's why I want a new class.


An unbalanced, overpowered new class.  Awesome.

You forget that a different spell set would not be so imbalancing, depending on choices.

So a class that fights as well as a warrior but has the added benefit being able to cast spells is not imba/op? It's no coincidence that most people who 'rolled cleric in dnd were hardcore min/maxing powergamers.

Modifié par reepneep, 06 janvier 2010 - 08:23 .


#191
The Capital Gaultier

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reepneep wrote...

So a class that fights as well as a warrior but has the added benefit being able to cast spells is not imba/op? It's no coincidence that most people who 'rolled cleric in dnd were hardcore min/maxing powergamers.

Not necessarily, no.  It's a choice whether you make them more powerful than other classes in general or not.  In DnD, it was decided that they would be.

#192
Schneidend

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The Capital Gaultier wrote...

Schneidend wrote...

Gaultier, The Arcane Warrior is fine at both spellcasting and melee combat. And, since you ignored my post on how to do so, well, I'm going to assume the fault lies with some deficiency you have as a player. You must be doing something wrong.

No, it does not do fine at both melee and spellcasting.  Like I said, without Combat Magic, you are a poor melee fighter.  That's not something a player can correct.

Make no mistake - the class itself is overpowered.  It's super powerful.  My point is that it does not play like a caster/melee, not that the class is deficient.


Yes, so, cast some opening spells, turn on Combat Magic while you're meleeing, and then turn it off to cast spells while it is on cooldown. It just takes the slightest bit of micromanaging, like a regular Warrior.

#193
NKKKK

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David Gaider wrote...

fanman72 wrote...
Even if the Maker never shows himself, I thought Andraste's ashes were proof of evidence of for the maker??  Why else would charred remains of somebody who died long ago work in healing the sick?

I'm sure that some people can interpret proof however they wish, but the assumption that the power of the ashes stems from divine power as opposed to more mundane healing magic stems from the idea (or claim, if you prefer) that those are the ashes of Andraste and nothing more. Proof of the supernatural is hardly proof of the divine, especially when the difference between the ashes and a regular healing spell is a degree in potency. You may ascribe that power to whatever you wish, but so long as the truth can be argued it's existence as proof of anything is questionable.

P.S.  Are we going to see and roam the Black City in later Dragon Age games or novels????

I don't know. Maybe? Entering the Fade physically in any capacity has only ever been done once in history, so it's not exactly just a place you can visit casually.


I'll take that as a yes

#194
Grumpy Old Wizard

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reepneep wrote...
So a class that fights as well as a warrior but has the added benefit being able to cast spells is not imba/op? It's no coincidence that most people who 'rolled cleric in dnd were hardcore min/maxing powergamers.


Oh please. A mage can nuke the world, control crowds, and heal himself. He has a disadvantage of being squishy but with proper crowd control and tactics he can solo the game as a caster though almost everyone solos as an arcane warrior.

An arcane warrior uses sustained abilities and attacks with auto attacks. He is not really a caster. A lot of people wear robes at the start of the battle, cast spells, then activate sustained abilities and put on massive armor. That is an expoit, as you certainly would have trouble getting naked and then putting on massive armor in the middle of combat.

Now, to stop that exploit changing armor could be disallowed during combat.

And of course the arcane warrior has no weapon skills so it is just auto attacks.

As far as warriors, I'm finding my two handed dwarf tempar-champion doing a solo NM run to be far more powerful than my solo caster mage (non arcane warrior) who is doing the same. He is quite simply stomping everything and is at about level 18 now early in the deep roads. He has only used the lesser healing potions and at times standard healing potions. With 90+ spell resistance and good armor he simply has nothing to fear.

Warriors can solo the game. Arcane warriors can solo the game. Rogues can solo the game easily. Caster mages can solo the game, though with more difficulty than the previously mentioned classes.

Nobody who wants to see a cleric class wants it to be overpowered. You may recall when someone said people should just shut up and play the cleric mod that I pointed out it is overpowered according to the comments on the mod page.

As it stands now, the Spirit Healer speciality is just 4 spells. Most are redundant. Group heal is a group version of heal. Healing potions are easy to make and use in the game. When I play as a party my spirit healer seldom uses group heal, just the standard mage heal is enough.

Revive you get for free at the end of every combat and really if you play your party properly a character will seldom fall in combat. Lifeward is a precast healing spell. The only use of Cleansing Aura is to remove injuries. Injuries can be removed with kits or are removed free when you visit camp. If you actually use Cleansing Aura in combat it drains your mana way too rapidly.

As for clerics being overpowered in previous games, no, I dispute that. If you look only at recent games like NWN2, yeah, clerics were overpowered there. But in previous games, no.

A cleric should not be as good a fighter as a pure warrior and should not be able to nuke as well as a mage. He would have less hit points than a warrior, but more than a mage. He would wear heavy armor. Most of his spells would not overlap with classical mage spells.

Anways, based on David's comments 'm doubtful we will see an official cleric class so we'll have to hope for a fan made mod will become better balanced.

Modifié par Grumpy Old Wizard, 06 janvier 2010 - 09:49 .


#195
royen1

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Just popping in to say thanks, David for clearing this up. Must be nice to have the game generate such heated debate, huh?


#196
FlintlockJazz

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Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...

As it stands now, the Spirit Healer speciality is just 4 spells. Most are redundant. Group heal is a group version of heal. Healing potions are easy to make and use in the game. When I play as a party my spirit healer seldom uses group heal, just the standard mage heal is enough.

Revive you get for free at the end of every combat and really if you play your party properly a character will seldom fall in combat. Lifeward is a precast healing spell. The only use of Cleansing Aura is to remove injuries. Injuries can be removed with kits or are removed free when you visit camp. If you actually use Cleansing Aura in combat it drains your mana way too rapidly.


I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to say what?! 

The Group Heal is awesome, it allows you to continue healing even when your heal spell is on cooldown, and to top off everyone in your group, hell I prefer it to the standard heal as it is alot more efficient in healing to mana costs for your total party. 

Revive is the only in-battle res, if you need to get a guy up it's the only way other than to wait until the end of the battle, which if he's an essential member might require a reload. 

Cleansing Aura I love, not only does it remove the need for injury kits but I have used it to keep my party members on full health while fighting bosses without having to cast a single heal spell, and if you are also an arcane warrior then you can just stick on armour, activate combat magic and Cleansing Aura and have your cleric-type healing your comrades as you fight alongside them. 

Lifeward is the only one that I find to be useless, and that's probably due to my own shortcomings not realising how to best use it or not realising when it has actually saved my life.

#197
KCat

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David Gaider wrote...

P.S.  Are we going to see and roam the Black City in later Dragon Age games or novels????

I don't know. Maybe? Entering the Fade physically in any capacity has only ever been done once in history, so it's not exactly just a place you can visit casually.

I'm curious if it's been decided exactly what the Black City is/was (development-wise), or if it was something intentionally left undescribed so some later piece of media (game, book, whatever) can fill in the details as it wants. I can say I probably know what those mages felt..it's maddening seeing it there ever in the distance, not knowing exactly what it is or what's in it, just waiting to be explored, taunting you... >.> <.<

#198
Tekbear

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i find templars to be cleric enough

#199
Jester8183

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KCat wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

P.S.  Are we going to see and roam the Black City in later Dragon Age games or novels????

I don't know. Maybe? Entering the Fade physically in any capacity has only ever been done once in history, so it's not exactly just a place you can visit casually.

I'm curious if it's been decided exactly what the Black City is/was (development-wise), or if it was something intentionally left undescribed so some later piece of media (game, book, whatever) can fill in the details as it wants. I can say I probably know what those mages felt..it's maddening seeing it there ever in the distance, not knowing exactly what it is or what's in it, just waiting to be explored, taunting you... >.> <.<


And that's how they get you KCat... with the mystery.

#200
dalethfc

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I am Starting to See the Paladin lovers here. Image IPB
The "I want to use warrior gear and be able to Bubble up and heal myself"
These are the, "I aint good enough to play any other way" Types.
If you want a loladin or a mobile A&E unit, play something else that is a DnD
It's been put soooooooooooooo many times that it aint gonna happen.

Learn to play the classes properly and you will see the is NO NEED for "Praise The Lord,, Your Cured Mate" class.
My Mages Heal Fine and My own switches to Arcane Warrior as and When More protection and dps are needed, and she Can Heal to. Image IPB

Some people just dont seem to want to hear the word "NO" even when Bioware say it.
@tekbear they are the closet to a Paladin I think the game will have. but for some moaners,, they want the First Aid Kit with it.
@FlintlockJazz I set tactics to cast that on anyone who's health drops to 30% and it does work Image IPB

And Now my car is buried in Snow,,, AGAIN Image IPB

Modifié par dalethfc, 06 janvier 2010 - 12:48 .