384 réponses à ce sujet

[Valcutio]

Yeah, because people's ashes heal wounds all the time. Nothing divine there, folks.



*rolls eyes*

[Veritasinpersonam]

I propose Bioware takes us on a field trip to the Black City. Stanley Woo is buying lunch.

Modifié par Veritasinpersonam, 06 janvier 2010 - 02:12 .

[KCat]

Yeah, because people's ashes heal wounds all the time. Nothing divine there, folks.

Because it couldn't possibly have been Lyrium radiation contamination. No siree.

[Thoron Draugohtar]

In Redcliffe, one of the knights asks about holy protection, the revered mother says something like

"It is not in my power to give the Makers protection out to everyone."



She says how it is impossible unless the maker himself chooses and gives them his power. aka....no cleric for you.

[Valcutio]

KCat wrote...

Yeah, because people's ashes heal wounds all the time. Nothing divine there, folks.

Because it couldn't possibly have been Lyrium radiation contamination. No siree.

Then why were those specific ashes needed? Wouldn't any ashes that have been exposed to lyrium have worked? How did everybody know the ashes would heal anybody in the first place? More importantly, why were the ashes guarded?

[Awildawn]

Well there's always the possibility of a benevolent spirit like the one who possessed Wynnes. Who knows what will happen the day Wynne dies, maybe her bones/ashes will be able to heal everything.



And, as far as we know, spirits aren't true angels and demons but just dwellers of the fade who happen to have motives more or less compatible with those of the mages who dreamwalk (yep, dreamwalk it is).

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

Learn to play the classes properly and you will see the is NO NEED for "Praise The Lord,, Your Cured Mate" class.
My Mages Heal Fine and My own switches to Arcane Warrior as and When More protection and dps are needed, and she Can Heal to.

It is not a matter of playing the classes properly. I can solo nightmare with any class. It is a matter of more classes=more options= more replayability. Some people enjoy playing cleric type characters, some don't. As far as I know no one has put a gun to your head and said, "If Bioware makes a cleric class you will play it or die." 

I think that actually needing a mage that can nuke ther world, control crowds, and heal is what shows a lack of player skill. But some folks just want to play in "god" mode I guess.

Some people just dont seem to want to hear the word "NO" even when Bioware say it.

Funny, I haven't seen that. I for instance said it looks like an official cleric class is not going to happen and maybe the fan made mod will be better balanced in the future. I don't want to play overpowered classes.

I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to say what?! 

I find the Spiritual Healer spells to be mostly redundant for the reasons I stated. Milage may vary with play style, skill,  and tactics. Really, if your characters are going down a lot in battles you are not using very good tactics.

Then why were those specific ashes needed? Wouldn't any ashes that have been exposed to lyrium have worked? How did everybody know the ashes would heal anybody in the first place? More importantly, why were the ashes guarded?

Excellent point. And why the extremely large and lavish Temple built just to guard her ashes? That had to take quite a lot of wealth to build. But it was evidently just a "very happy coincidence" that the ashes had the intended results" and a very happy coincidence that a warrior who vowed to guard her ashes had such an extraordinary lifespan.

Modifié par Grumpy Old Wizard, 06 janvier 2010 - 03:01 .

[Mikey_205]

Clerics in 2Ed were pretty balanced. They had heals and buffs and no attack spells. I'd like for some division of mage origins into attack/cc and defense/healing the training is or should be very different more so than can be learned by adventuring. The current mage covers so many different things. However I would never want warriors or templars to become clerics.

[LightPhoenix]

KCat wrote...

Yeah, because people's ashes heal wounds all the time. Nothing divine there, folks.

Because it couldn't possibly have been Lyrium radiation contamination. No siree.

And I'm sure it's been mentioned before, but if you bring Oghren, he even says that there's a large amount of lyrium in the area, and voices the opinion that it's what caused the ashes to be magical.

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

LightPhoenix wrote...

KCat wrote...

Yeah, because people's ashes heal wounds all the time. Nothing divine there, folks.

Because it couldn't possibly have been Lyrium radiation contamination. No siree.

And I'm sure it's been mentioned before, but if you bring Oghren, he even says that there's a large amount of lyrium in the area, and voices the opinion that it's what caused the ashes to be magical.

That's why dwarves live forever, of course. They are around all that lyrium, especially the miners. And the mages never die either because they are always drinking all the stuff. Templars too are immortal. They are addicted to the stuff.

I don't think a drunk dwarf who believes in the ancestors saying there is a lot of lyrium in the area means the lyrium kept the guardian alive and just by shear coincidence made the ashes of Andraste great for healing the deathly ill.

Anyways, it is a moot point since David already said there will be no divine magic in the game.

[Schneidend]

Valcutio wrote...

KCat wrote...

Yeah, because people's ashes heal wounds all the time. Nothing divine there, folks.

Because it couldn't possibly have been Lyrium radiation contamination. No siree.

Then why were those specific ashes needed? Wouldn't any ashes that have been exposed to lyrium have worked? How did everybody know the ashes would heal anybody in the first place? More importantly, why were the ashes guarded?

They may not have even been ashes, or Andrastae herself was an extremely powerful mage. It's called the Sacred Urn of Andrastae, not the Burnt Up Remains of Andrastae. It might have been her life's work, a substance that can cure any ailment.

[Schneidend]

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...


That's why dwarves live forever, of course. They are around all that lyrium, especially the miners. And the mages never die either because they are always drinking all the stuff. Templars too are immortal. They are addicted to the stuff.

Dwarves don't expose themselves to raw, concentrated lyrium for centuries at a time. Even they can be hurt by touching the stuff. Templars and Mages use diluted lyrium. Lyrium veins, on the other hand, rejuvenate the player character and his party. A very rich lyrium vein could have very potent restorative effects, especially if the tomb of a possible archmage is built into said vein.

I don't think a drunk dwarf who believes in the ancestors saying there is a lot of lyrium in the area means the lyrium kept the guardian alive and just by shear coincidence made the ashes of Andraste great for healing the deathly ill.

But the influence of an invisible man in the sky is the far more likely option?

Anyways, it is a moot point since David already said there will be no divine magic in the game.

I think it's important to understand WHY there will be no divine magic. As David said, the Dragon Age world doesn't have compelling proof of the Maker's existence. It's enough of a mystery that people can believe he exists, and others can reasonably assume he does not exist. This isn't like the Forgotten Realms, where avatars appear with startling regularity and clerics smite the undead with the radiant light of their god. In fact, the reason the Chantry's been so successful is likely because they came up with a story that doesn't require the Maker to be present at all, and therefore requires nothing more substantial than faith to believe in.

[KillerRabbit]

David Gaider wrote...

P.S.  Are we going to see and roam the Black City in later Dragon Age games or novels????

I don't know. Maybe? Entering the Fade physically in any capacity has only ever been done once in history, so it's not exactly just a place you can visit casually.

Let me say that question in a different form - Are you currently writing / planning to write another Dragon Age novel? I realy liked your books, specially the first one. Sadly I read them after I had completed the game, so the second book felt a bit repetitive when it had so much in common with the things you did in the game.

Modifié par KillerRabbit, 06 janvier 2010 - 05:24 .

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

Schneidend wrote...

They may not have even been ashes, or Andrastae herself was an extremely powerful mage. It's called the Sacred Urn of Andrastae, not the Burnt Up Remains of Andrastae. It might have been her life's work, a substance that can cure any ailment.

Except there is no in game evidence that those are the remains of Barney the purple dinosaur or of Andrastes "life work."  If the remains of dead mages heal people thre sure should have been a lot of healing going on in the Circle of Mages Tower.

I do believe it is said that the ashes of Anraste are in the urn, not Andraste's life work.

Oh, the scholar who examined the ashes seemed prety convinced those were human ashes once he examined them.

Modifié par Grumpy Old Wizard, 06 janvier 2010 - 05:25 .

[Schneidend]

The scholars of a non-scientific society are hardly forensic experts. My theories are just as likely, if not moreso, than "the Maker did it." That you can't accept that there isn't any compelling proof in either direction, as David Gaider says, is not anybody's fault but your own.

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

Schneidend wrote...

The scholars of a non-scientific society are hardly forensic experts. My theories are just as likely, if not moreso, than "the Maker did it." That you can't accept that there isn't any compelling proof in either direction, as David Gaider says, is not anybody's fault but your own.

Oh please. You can claim what is in the urn is cow dung all day long but you need to offer proof.

You can say, oh yeah, a scholar examined the "ashes" but he didn't know the scientific method so his conclusion is irrelevant but the musings of drunk dwarf are truth.  You don't seem to grasp that if you make a claim you need to back it up. You throw out the conclusion of a scholar and embrace those of a drunk dwarf. Yeah, that's rational.

See, you have no proof that everyting is not what the Chantry claims. You seem to think that you can just say everything is the exact opposite of what the Chantry claims and that they just "made up a story" and that it is so just because you say so.

[Schneidend]

The Chantry doesn't have any proof, either. That's part of why the Dragon Age universe is compelling. Nobody knows whether the Maker is real or not. To suggest that he is merely because the Chantry says so is the same attitude you're accusing me of having. I'm not saying that the Maker isn't real, or that Andrastae isn't a divinely-empowered prophet, I'm just saying that there is enough clouding the situation to allow for believing those things. The fact that magic and lyrium can do so many things casts doubt on the divine nature of these "miracles." But, as you say, there isn't any proof.

[JackDresden]

To the OP there are clerics in the game, you could even have a pious mage who believes there power comes from the creator. But there is no need or room in the lore for a class with expressly divine abilities. It's a silly hold over from D&D that some people think they just must have this class.

[Rolenka]

Even without "divine" powers, some sort of warrior/mage class with healing, buffing and anti-undead spells might be possible. All is within the realm of magic in the setting.

You can do that now though, if you make an Arcane Warrior. Well, sans the undead-slaying focus.

Modifié par Rolenka, 06 janvier 2010 - 06:00 .

[JackDresden]

Heres an idea for all those who must have a spell casting cleric otherwise there game just isn't D&D clone number 7 enough...



Play a mage who believes devoutley in the creator and believes there power to be a gift from the creator. Now focus on creation spells and specialise as a spirit healer.



There you go a cleric that standard D&D enough or not. For me adding an offical cleric class to Dragon Age would spoil the setting a fair bit. If someone wants to mod in a standard D&D cleric for those who simply can't live without one I say go for it it will simply be a mod I have no interest in myself and would never consider downloading.

[JackDresden]

Rolenka wrote...

Even without "divine" powers, some sort of warrior/mage class with healing, buffing and anti-undead spells might be possible. All is within the realm of magic in the setting.

You can do that now though, if you make an Arcane Warrior. Well, sans the undead-slaying focus.

Exactly and as a Mage you can also believe your power to be a devine gift to be used in th service of the creator....so what more do people need.

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

An arcane warrior-spirit healer is not a decent cleric type for reasons already mentioned a numbe of times. Evidently some people have trouble reading.

[dalethfc]

@JackDresden,,

They need to have a jack hammer used to pound in the answers they have been repeatedly given,

Over and Over And,,,,, Yes,,,, OVER again, into their dense skulls.



And their is a Cleric Mod for those that need their Cleric. But it still dont shut them up.

It seems they want to ruin the game.



And I thought Sandal was dense,,, "Enchantment ?"

[Schwapp]

David Gaider wrote...

fanman72 wrote...
Even if the Maker never shows himself, I thought Andraste's ashes were proof of evidence of for the maker??  Why else would charred remains of somebody who died long ago work in healing the sick?

I'm sure that some people can interpret proof however they wish, but the assumption that the power of the ashes stems from divine power as opposed to more mundane healing magic stems from the idea (or claim, if you prefer) that those are the ashes of Andraste and nothing more. Proof of the supernatural is hardly proof of the divine, especially when the difference between the ashes and a regular healing spell is a degree in potency. You may ascribe that power to whatever you wish, but so long as the truth can be argued it's existence as proof of anything is questionable.

Doesn't the above paragraph negate your whole position that the existence of clerics would confirm the existence of The Maker, though? The same argument could be made that the clerics are just attributing their abilities to The Maker based on their feelings and faith, while the rest of the world doubts the veracity of their claims.

I understand that, for whatever reason, clerics still won't be put into the game, but the logic behind the explanation as to why is flawed.

[Bibdy]

Gaider was being nice. He offered a reasoned argument for why they don't want clerics in the game, related to the game's lore. In hindsight he should have probably just said "No, we're not going to make clerics, because we don't want a game-world where existence of divine beings is commonplace and every assjacket and his mother with a religion can get a God to do their dirty laundry for them, instead of doing it themselves. Where's the fun in that?"