59 réponses à ce sujet

[Bfler]

Witch Hunt doesn't have a post game save. If they do it via import, how do they implement the last decision with the Eluvian in DA3?

[Angelo2027]

No thank you I have played a lot of hours so I can import my perfect playthrough.

[KENNY4753]

teenparty wrote...

KENNY4753 wrote...

teenparty wrote...
... but the godbaby ritual was maybe the most interesting bit in Origins.

So is this whole thread jsut about you wanting the OGB to be made canon just so it will play a major plot point? That's the way it seems to me.

Yes, but the OGB is just one example. 

but while you may like it, other people will not. The reason people love the Dragon Age games are because they see how there choices effect the world. Having a set canon with no save import may give BW a way to include more previous plot lines into DA3 but it would render everything we did in DA:O and DA2 pointless. I'd rather have some of my choices pan out in the story than none of my choices at all.

[Stippling]

Wulfram wrote...

So my suggestion would be to allow an import, but to write the current game to be the best stand alone game possible, and then when Bioware are done with this game they can look at where things stand and work out if doing an import for DA4 is practical or not.

I wrote up a whole post about how I think the save import is necessary, but it started to get repetitive. I think the statement above is the essence of what we're all after, and I hope this is what they decide to do.

Modifié par Stippling, 20 octobre 2012 - 02:43 .

[MoogleNut]

Bfler wrote...

Witch Hunt doesn't have a post game save. If they do it via import, how do they implement the last decision with the Eluvian in DA3?

It does - I always import from Witchhunt into DA2 and it cleary (and correctly) states my decision regarding the end of the DLC.

I don't recall if it was added with a patch though - perhaps your playthrough was pre-patch. 

Edit - added a screenie for proof  social.bioware.com/1198336/albums/851386/234209

Modifié par MoogleNut, 20 octobre 2012 - 04:06 .

[Blackrising]

I don't care if all my choices do is result in 'pointless cameos', as some people put it. My previous choices don't HAVE to have big effects on the next game, I just want to feel like the game at least recognizes who my Warden/Hawke was.

So I'm satisfied with the current system, although I obviously wouldn't say no to choices having a bigger impact.

[Realmzmaster]

The problem is that Bioware will upset a segment of their fanbase if certain possibilities are made canon. Gamers are already upset with the retcon of Leliana in DA2 (if your warden killed her). If certain gamer's warden did not do the DR then that gamer may be unhappy that his/her choice gets ignored and vice versa.
I would rather get a quest to find the OGB if your warden did the DR. It would be interesting if at the end of the quest you find that the OGB is normal and that the baby's spirit crushed the spirit of the old god. That would bring closure. Not necessarily the closure gamers want but closure nevertheless. Also freeing Bioware from the OGB sub-plot.

I prefer the little quests that reference what occurred in other parts of Thedas. I prefer it be left at that. DA2 handled it well enough. The Blight is what drove Hawke and other refugees to Kirkwall. The Blight was contained to Ferelden .Therefore its effect on the Free Marshes would not extend beyond the overpopulation of refugees and a few quest that may or maynot happen.

[AllThatJazz]

Disagree, OP. I understand and respect your point, but in my view trying to find ways of improving the save import feature would be much more useful to the devs and ultimately rewarding for us than simply removing it altogether. I would love the system to become more robust over time and eventually lead to divergent gameplay on a larger scale (where resources make this possible) - but for now, I guess I am happy to be part of an experiment to see how the feature can be bettered

[MillKill]

Those that say, "Don't like, don't use" are missing the entire point. By keeping this feature for anyone, they are handicapping what Bioware can do.

If they want to make a plot about Orzammar and heavily involve the king, to bad. There are two different people that can be king. They'd have to make two separate stories if the king of Orzammar is to have to have a major role. That won't happen.

It would be even worse for Fereldan's ruler(s). There are five separate ways Fereldan can be ruled. There's no way they can integrate all of those into the plot in a major way if they wanted to.

Want the OGB to matter? Too bad. It'll be a sidequest at most.

This same thing happens with every choice. It will never be important. It will never matter. Bioware cannot and should not make dozens of different games based on accomadating every major choice every player made in a meaningful way. If you would like your choices to result  in more than an altered line, a cameo, or a sidequest, keep dreaming. It's not going to happen.

Baldur's Gate 2 and the Fallout series completely ignored what you did in previous games and made certain decisions canon. The games were great anyway. Your savegames will not delete themselves just because Bioware makes Harrowmont or Bhelen the canon king. The plots of subsequent games will be weaker thany they otherwise could be and your choices will be acknowledged in minor ways if the feature is kept.

[MillKill]

Calob wrote...

The key signature of Bioware RPGs is that importing save games to the successor to impact and affect your game

It is not. A grand total of three Bioware games could import previous choices. Baldur's Gate 2 and Neverwinter Nights could import a characters, but every decision you made was overrided.

Modifié par MillKill, 20 octobre 2012 - 06:24 .

[AllThatJazz]

MillKill wrote...

Calob wrote...

The key signature of Bioware RPGs is that importing save games to the successor to impact and affect your game

It is not. A grand total of three Bioware games could import previous choices. Baldur's Gate 2 and Neverwinter Nights could import a characters, but every decision you made was overrided.

True, but it's a case of gradual progression. Early games (BG2, NWN) allowed character imports but not plot flags, ME and DA have allowed certain decisions to carry over, with varying degrees of importance and indeed success. Personally I think the ME series has done it better so far, with some decisions such as the Geth/Quarian arcs carrying much more weight than the 'flavour' consequences we saw in DA2; though I reserve final judgement for when we hit the end of DA -  which won't be for a good while yet I hope!.

For all we know, save imports could be a standard for trilogies/ game series in a few years, partly because Bio is doing a lot of the hard work and hit-and-miss stuff now. Of course, it's equally likely that the idea will be given up as a good idea that never quite worked, but in my view it deserves a fair crack of the whip. By which I mean, a better chance than one trilogy where it actually worked reasonably well and one game that had bigger problems than whether the save import worked at all.

[MillKill]

AllThatJazz wrote...

MillKill wrote...

Calob wrote...

The key signature of Bioware RPGs is that importing save games to the successor to impact and affect your game

It is not. A grand total of three Bioware games could import previous choices. Baldur's Gate 2 and Neverwinter Nights could import a characters, but every decision you made was overrided.

True, but it's a case of gradual progression. Early games (BG2, NWN) allowed character imports but not plot flags, ME and DA have allowed certain decisions to carry over, with varying degrees of importance and indeed success. Personally I think the ME series has done it better so far, with some decisions such as the Geth/Quarian arcs carrying much more weight than the 'flavour' consequences we saw in DA2; though I reserve final judgement for when we hit the end of DA -  which won't be for a good while yet I hope!.

For all we know, save imports could be a standard for trilogies/ game series in a few years, partly because Bio is doing a lot of the hard work and hit-and-miss stuff now. Of course, it's equally likely that the idea will be given up as a good idea that never quite worked, but in my view it deserves a fair crack of the whip. By which I mean, a better chance than one trilogy where it actually worked reasonably well and one game that had bigger problems than whether the save import worked at all.

It worked in Mass Effect as well as it will ever work and people still complained about their choices not being important. In many cases, they were right. But the Mass Effect series is about one character going through one story. We don't have that in Dragon Age. We have seperate stories with seperate protagonists. The import feature does not benefit Dragon Age as much as it hurts it.

[AllThatJazz]

MillKill wrote...

AllThatJazz wrote...

MillKill wrote...

Calob wrote...

The key signature of Bioware RPGs is that importing save games to the successor to impact and affect your game

It is not. A grand total of three Bioware games could import previous choices. Baldur's Gate 2 and Neverwinter Nights could import a characters, but every decision you made was overrided.

True, but it's a case of gradual progression. Early games (BG2, NWN) allowed character imports but not plot flags, ME and DA have allowed certain decisions to carry over, with varying degrees of importance and indeed success. Personally I think the ME series has done it better so far, with some decisions such as the Geth/Quarian arcs carrying much more weight than the 'flavour' consequences we saw in DA2; though I reserve final judgement for when we hit the end of DA -  which won't be for a good while yet I hope!.

For all we know, save imports could be a standard for trilogies/ game series in a few years, partly because Bio is doing a lot of the hard work and hit-and-miss stuff now. Of course, it's equally likely that the idea will be given up as a good idea that never quite worked, but in my view it deserves a fair crack of the whip. By which I mean, a better chance than one trilogy where it actually worked reasonably well and one game that had bigger problems than whether the save import worked at all.

It worked in Mass Effect as well as it will ever work and people still complained about their choices not being important. In many cases, they were right. But the Mass Effect series is about one character going through one story. We don't have that in Dragon Age. We have seperate stories with seperate protagonists. The import feature does not benefit Dragon Age as much as it hurts it.

I honestly don't think we can say that definitively after only one sequel where no major decisions (OGB, King of Orzammar etc) were intended to play any narrative role anyway because of the far more personal and insular nature of the story. Maybe we should have this debate again after DA3 is released? If, for example, the OGB's existence (or not) is waved away in a line of dialogue or two then you will have my agreement, and my apologies for doubting you!

Edit: highlighted to emphasise which patrt of your post I was responding to.

Also, I think there would always be people who complain that their decision wasn't given enough magnitude - frankly we could have almost entirely different campaigns based on decision-making and the one decision that isn't given 'enough' importance  would be ripped apart. It's not, in my view, a good reason to give up on the idea altogether quite yet

Modifié par AllThatJazz, 20 octobre 2012 - 07:03 .

[MillKill]

AllThatJazz wrote...

 Maybe we should have this debate again after DA3 is released? If, for example, the OGB's existence (or not) is waved away in a line of dialogue or two then you will have my agreement, and my apologies for doubting you!

To be fair, the OGB will probably get a sidequest that doesn't change anything, instead of a few lines that don't change anything.

Then again, huge decisions were handwaved in Mass Effect, which was built around the save import instead of having it thrown in as an afterthought like DA. So it's possible the OGB will just get a few lines like:

-Rachni
-Udina or Anderson
-Saving the Council
-Saving/Destroying Genophage data
-Collector Base

Modifié par MillKill, 20 octobre 2012 - 07:06 .

[AllThatJazz]

 I thought the Genophage data played a part in being able to save Eve? And the Udina/Anderson thing was dealt with in a comic, I believe (not something I like over much since I don't read the comics, but technically not a hand-wave I guess). The others, yes, very true. And I admit to being disappointed about the Collector Base decision in particular. 

But just because ALL of my decisions don't carry the weight I would like them to in an ideal scenario, doesn't mean I therefore want none of my decisions to matter at all. I suppose I think that something is better, and results in a more personal and unique game, than nothing whatsoever.  And since I see this as a gradual process of trial and error by the devs - starting all the way back with character imports in BG2 - I'm okay with it not being perfect right now.  

I think a balance needs to be found -  allowing a level of decision-making to the player that can be successfully carried forward, without overwhelming themselves with so many variables that not everything can be feasibly achieved (as I think they became a bit bogged down with in ME3). I do think it's possible, but it may take a while.

And ah, see I guess my expectations aren't as high as yours A sidequest that deals with the OGB would be okay with me at this point, as long as it includes a satisfactory resolution to that particular plotline, I don't expect an entire main quest to revolve around it or anything.

Modifié par AllThatJazz, 20 octobre 2012 - 07:29 .

[Cutlass Jack]

teenparty wrote...

Simply put. some of the pros of making a canon story for Orgins and DA2 would be:

- The God child could have an important role in DA3
- The warden could return
- Old characters that may be alive or dead depending on player choice, may have minor, but integrated roles in DA3
- People wouldn't have to use save editors to make saves to import, because they've lost their 182 playthroughs
- Events that seemed important in Origins and DA2 may have a real impact on DA3.
- List goes on.

So to be clear, the 'pros' are the events you want to be canon. If I wanted a God Child I'd have made one.

No thank you. I'd rather import my own save than yours. Thanks.

[MillKill]

AllThatJazz wrote...

And ah, see I guess my expectations aren't as high as yours A sidequest that deals with the OGB would be okay with me at this point, as long as it includes a satisfactory resolution to that particular plotline, I don't expect an entire main quest to revolve around it or anything.

I just see the writers handicapping themselves by having to cater to everybody and the quality will suffer. Do you like Alistair? Well, he can never be important again because he could be king, a drunk, or a Grey Warden and Bioware won't make three major stories for him. Three possible pointless cameos is all we'll get. Think the OGB would be a great plot for a whole game? Too bad.

Here's an example of a series that wisely ingnored previous choices for the better:

Fallout.

In Fallout 1, your choices determine whether or not the NCR comes into being. The NCR plays an enormous role in Fallout 2 and New Vegas. They are hugely important in both games. If the devs had to sidestep around making a canon, both stories would have been far, far weaker. By making a choice canon, the writers can make it more fleshed-out and important.

It really comes down to a quality over quantity  issue. I'd rather a few important choices were set in stone so that they
can continue those plotlines. For example: I'd like to see Feynriel's story continue. Either a story involving  him as an immensely powerful  Dreamer mage or a super-abomination could be great. With imports, that choice will be rendered meaningless because development resources are not infinite.  It's best to make a story that is great on it's own, even if it overrides decisions in a previous game than to merely get fanservice cameos that contriube little and preclude devs from ever continuing plotlines or return characters in a meaningful way.

[AllThatJazz]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

teenparty wrote...

Simply put. some of the pros of making a canon story for Orgins and DA2 would be:

- The God child could have an important role in DA3
- The warden could return
- Old characters that may be alive or dead depending on player choice, may have minor, but integrated roles in DA3
- People wouldn't have to use save editors to make saves to import, because they've lost their 182 playthroughs
- Events that seemed important in Origins and DA2 may have a real impact on DA3.
- List goes on.

So to be clear, the 'pros' are the events you want to be canon. If I wanted a God Child I'd have made one.

No thank you. I'd rather import my own save than yours. Thanks.

Yep, precisely this. And also, the Warden could NOT return. A Warden could return, but unless she's a pink-haired elven mage with a smart mouth and a secret crush on Sigrun, then whoever it is will not be MY current Warden. Unless they're all like that

[Yalision]

I'm hoping that Inquisition is a romp across a chunk of Thedas. The things I have read seem to indicate we will be seeing many different locales. I want to see my Wardens tomb in Weissaupt. Maybe Leiliana will be there.

[AllThatJazz]

MillKill wrote...

AllThatJazz wrote...

And ah, see I guess my expectations aren't as high as yours A sidequest that deals with the OGB would be okay with me at this point, as long as it includes a satisfactory resolution to that particular plotline, I don't expect an entire main quest to revolve around it or anything.

I just see the writers handicapping themselves by having to cater to everybody and the quality will suffer. Do you like Alistair? Well, he can never be important again because he could be king, a drunk, or a Grey Warden and Bioware won't make three major stories for him. Three possible pointless cameos is all we'll get. Think the OGB would be a great plot for a whole game? Too bad.

Here's an example of a series that wisely ingnored previous choices for the better:

Fallout.

In Fallout 1, your choices determine whether or not the NCR comes into being. The NCR plays an enormous role in Fallout 2 and New Vegas. They are hugely important in both games. If the devs had to sidestep around making a canon, both stories would have been far, far weaker. By making a choice canon, the writers can make it more fleshed-out and important.

It really comes down to a quality over quantity  issue. I'd rather a few important choices were set in stone so that they
can continue those plotlines. For example: I'd like to see Feynriel's story continue. Either a story involving  him as an immensely powerful  Dreamer mage or a super-abomination could be great. With imports, that choice will be rendered meaningless because development resources are not infinite.  It's best to make a story that is great on it's own, even if it overrides decisions in a previous game than to merely get fanservice cameos that contriube little and preclude devs from ever continuing plotlines or return characters in a meaningful way.

I do see your point (and also, kudos for talking about the best Fallouts, superb games), and agree to an extent - I am absolutely fine with certain critical decisions being set in stone in order to produce a more coherent universe/stronger narrative.  All that comes down to good planning on the part of the devs, doesn't it?  I guess they need to have an idea of where they are going with the series, therefore knowing in advance roughly which decisions will be so pivotal (though I can certainly forgive a bit of mind-changing here and there). I would guess that Alistair was never meant to have massive in-game importance beyond Origins (happy to be proved wrong here, Devs )

Again, maybe a balance between the two can be struck. Certain critical decisions are unchangeable, with those of less world-shaking magnitude left to the player to be resolved in future instalments -  at least until resources/tech progression makes truly divergent gameplay a possibility.

To be fair, this was the case with DA2 - there was no way to avoid the Mage/Templar conflict, or having to kill both Orsino and Meredith. No way to prevent the blowing up of the Chantry, or the invasion of the Qunari. Actually, DA3 is in a much easier position than ME3 was. Almost ALL of the possible decisions in DA2 were pretty cosmetic - basically, will Anders/Fenris/Isabela etc have a cameo in DA3 or not, and will Hawke be referred to as an angry young mage, a snarky rogue type or a virtuous warrior?? Which in turn allows the Devs to devote more resources to exploring the more fundamental decisions we made in Origins. Maybe even a Feynriel storyline, which I agree would be very interesting to see.

Edit: I'm heading off now, want to play a bit of Dishonored before bed. Din't want you to think I'm ignoring any response of yours Anyway, thanks for the exchange of views, has been highly entertaining! x

Modifié par AllThatJazz, 20 octobre 2012 - 08:16 .

[Genshie]

Why is this type of thread requesting to take out save imports keep popping up? The devs/mods/and practically everyone else with Bioware has stated several times the save import isn't going anywhere and that they are improving upon it. Stop asking for it to be removed for this title since its not happening. Maybe you should be requesting instead is how they might implement it in their new I.P. or if they are at all. Hey though the new Mass Effect title probably won't have it due to it most likely being a spin-off or a prequel.

Modifié par Genshie, 20 octobre 2012 - 08:14 .

[marshalleck]

Genshie wrote...

Why is this type of thread requesting to take out save imports keep popping up? The devs/mods/and practically everyone else with Bioware has stated several times the save import isn't going anywhere and that they are improving upon it. Stop asking for it to be removed for this title since its not happening. Maybe you should be requesting instead is how they might implement it in their new I.P. or if they are at all. Hey though the new Mass Effect title probably won't have it due to it most likely being a spin-off or a prequel.

Actually you're wrong, they're looking at how to keep choices without using save import. Latest info from Edmonton Expo today

[MillKill]

Genshie wrote...

Why is this type of thread requesting to take out save imports keep popping up? The devs/mods/and practically everyone else with Bioware has stated several times the save import isn't going anywhere and that they are improving upon it. Stop asking for it to be removed for this title since its not happening. Maybe you should be requesting instead is how they might implement it in their new I.P. or if they are at all. Hey though the new Mass Effect title probably won't have it due to it most likely being a spin-off or a prequel.

1) So they don't keep it in DA4.

2) So I can say "I told you so" to everyone who complains about the imports decisions being irrelevant cameos in DA3.

[wright1978]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

teenparty wrote...

Simply put. some of the pros of making a canon story for Orgins and DA2 would be:

- The God child could have an important role in DA3
- The warden could return
- Old characters that may be alive or dead depending on player choice, may have minor, but integrated roles in DA3
- People wouldn't have to use save editors to make saves to import, because they've lost their 182 playthroughs
- Events that seemed important in Origins and DA2 may have a real impact on DA3.
- List goes on.

So to be clear, the 'pros' are the events you want to be canon. If I wanted a God Child I'd have made one.

No thank you. I'd rather import my own save than yours. Thanks.

Very much this