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[Seival]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

For obvious reasons: the fans felt like they weren't given enough explanation. Where did my squadmates go? Who or what is this child exactly?

They answered all of these questions, while maintaining their artistic vision of the ending. They even added on to the illusions, but here's the thing:

If you pay attention, there are some very cool subtle hints in the EC.

The soldier, fighting in the streets. In the synthesis and control endings, the sequence is identical: a husk throws himself upon the soldier, he is overcome, and he's losing the fight.

In destroy (and only in destroy), the soldier shoots the husk down. And another one. More husks keep coming, but he takes them out, and keeps fighting, no matter how many are coming.

The subliminal message: you win in destroy, you lose in control/synthesis.

Also, there's no victory cheering in synthesis, which leads me to believe Synthesis is the worst option.

The endings just have to look differently. This is the only reason for different fight sequences.

Control and Synthesis are on positive side, so the epilogue doesn't show much deaths. And Destroy is clearly on negative side, so a lot of deaths were shown...

...Who cares about the enemy losses? The ones who prefer to say "Nobody else dies today!" maybe? The ones, who prefer Control and Synthesis.

Modifié par Seival, 25 octobre 2012 - 10:00 .

[Demon560]

[quote]Seival wrote...

[quote]Demon560 wrote...

[quote]Seival wrote...

Let's remember the final minutes of ME1. Geth occupiled the Council Chamber. Saren left all geth behind to finish the job himself. At the same time, Nazara phisically attached itself to the Citadel Tower.

Q: If Saren wanted only to hack the system to allow the Citadel to be used as Mass Relay again, why not send a geth to the console, and go back to try to delay Shepard?
A: Geth couldn't perform the task Saren wanted to perform, so it wasn't just a system hack. It was something more.
[/quote]

(1) Or it needed someone who knew the layout of the Citadel well enough in the current cycle, it did not really like using the Geth since it was disgusted by them and their worship, Saren was its current best agent, and had also enhanced him to take on anyone in their way these enhancements also prevented Saren from backing down/ going against Naz's will, so win for it with Saren.

[quote]Seival wrote...

Q: Something more?
A: Saren was about to "talk" to
the Catalyst, and required some time for that "conversation". But he was
interupted by Shepard's squad, and so had to fight.
[/quote]

(2) So why not just take Saren on the magical elevator or just tell Shep what is really going down, instead of that whole "in a few moments the Naz will have control of the Citadel and the reapers will come", seriously Saren even says over and over how the Reapers are all powerfull and that subjugation/being slaves is better then extinction, not that ascending/becoming like them is the Key, all that reapers are made of species came in ME2, and the whole ascencion thing began.

[quote]Seival wrote...

Q: How did Saren know about the Catalyst?
A: It's possible that the Catalyst recognized Saren's potential, and introduced itself eventually.
[/quote]

(3) Yet he never mentions anything but sovereign and its goals to destroy anyone against them, turn them to zombies and how we should become nothing but their tools to have any chance of survival, not to mention that Saren was looked as nothing more than a tool to be discarded when his usefulness was at an end probably after the reapers pulled through, after all look at what happened to Saren, tried to fight his master(Par/Ren options) and had to blow his brains out to help Shep out.

[quote]Seival wrote...

Q: Saren's potential?
A: Yes, the same as Shepard's potential - an "organic anomaly".
[/quote]


(4) This I can at least agree on that they did view Shep as an anomaly, but Saren was just Naz's puppet and apperantly from what vigil says on illos was not its' first agent, just the most visible.  Though I personally believe that it was more of Sheps continuous interference in Naz's goal and even the conviction he/she showed when talking to Naz directly was what got it interested, after all acquiring allies or pawns for its invasion would benefit it, look at Benezia, Shiala, the Geth, the Krogan, all were just pawns in its game of chest, Shep would be no different then the when it contacted the geth, though Shep being the one who was solely responcible for Naz's destruction obviously would get Harby interested for a time in acquiring such a useful pawn as well, so yeah when your first creation is in love with one person then you/catalyst is a bit interested as well especially if Harby a never shuts up about Shep-
Rannoch Reaper:
"Harbinger speaks of you"

[quote]Seival wrote...

Q: And what was the point of conversation between the Catalyst and Saren?
A: The same as in case of Shepard - try to find the new solution together.
[/quote]


(5) K, but  just going to say that Saren was indoctrinated and full of their/reaper tech, Saren was really close to being a Husk he barely had enough fight in him to shoot himself if you show him the error of his ways, why not just use a husk or just create a bunch of indoctrinated organics, make them into Hybrids like Saren and bring them as spares or why not just capture the Citadel right after they invade in ME3 to get it over with in an instance and explain to anyone who wanted to end the slaughter a way to complete synthesis.

[quote]Seival wrote...

Q: But there is no Crucible. How could they implement the solution?
A:
Nazara connected itself to the Citadel Tower physically. Saren and the
Geth were already inside, so Nazara's goal wasn't system hacking. Reaper
dreadnoughts clearly have overpowered energy sources to generate such
strong shields and mass effect fields. Nazara could be repurposed before
to be used as a Crucible analogy.
[/quote]

(6) So why not just do that again with any other reaper in ME3, to finally complete synthesis using any Organic-Synthetic Hybrid if you already have the means and just require a small component which could be anyone whose part organic and synthetic.

[quote]Seival wrote...

Q: Repurposed when and by who?
A: Before the attack on the Citadel, by Saren, Geth, and Nazara itself.
[/quote]

This is believable, with the centuries and years that it has been their since its call failed to get to the citadel.

[quote]Seival wrote...

Q: But Saren was already indoctrinated. What's next?
A:
Saren clearly wouldn't given Control option, because indoctrinated
persons can't be used as a material to create the new Catalyst. Also
Saren wouldn't given Destory option, because he didn't want to Destroy
the Reapers. So, it's clear that Saren could have only two options
available: sacrifice himself to trigger Synthesis, or refuse.
[/quote]

(7) If their was definitive way to destroy the Reapers pretty sure Saren would have taken, look at what happens when to convince him of how he's helping the reapers, not us and that fighting/working together they could stop the reapers, shoots himself, and this just goes back to why not just use any other husk or create a bunch of them to be used for it.

[quote]Seival wrote...

Interesting, isn't it?... Don't you find Saren's attack on the Citadel
in ME1 similar to Shepard's attack on Earth in ME3? Both gathered allies
to provide a distraction. Both used a "back door" to reach
a "hidden consol". The difference is that Saren failed, when was
interrupted by Shepard. But Shepard didn't fail, when was interrupted by
TIM.
[/quote]

(8) If you pick Synthsis or control, yeah then it is Ironic we become TIM or like the Reapers/ Indoctrinated Saren, trying to fight fate is at least a fun, yet unwinnable battle.

[quote]Seival wrote...

The Illusive Man

Les't remember the final minutes of ME3.
TIM was on the Citadel and tried to mind-control wounded Shepard, but
failed. Shepard managed to deal with TIM, and proceed.

Q: But what if TIM wouldn't fail? What will he do next?
A: Talk to the Catalyst obviously.
[/quote]

(9) Didn't he try to open the Citadell arms if you Renegade him and tell him to hurry up and do it, but the Reapers pretty much prevent him from taking any actuall recourse because they don't want to take a chance on it/the Crucible actually activating and harming them, kind of disproves this assertion.

[quote]Seival wrote...

Q: But TIM was already indoctrinated. What's next?
A: TIM
clearly wouldn't given Control option, because indoctrinated persons
can't be used as a material to create the new Catalyst. Also TIM
wouldn't given Destory option, because he didn't want to Destroy the
Reapers. So, it's clear that TIM could have only two options available:
sacrifice himself to trigger Synthesis, or refuse.
[/quote]

(10) Doesn't mean he wouldn't try, he is afterall one tenacious bastard, but synthesis would be up his ally as well I guess since it advance everyone, though he does have that "If you can't control it destroy it" attitude, Scientist, Miranda, and his whole team being either on the run, indoctrinated, dead, or just useful as they are for the time being.

[quote]Seival wrote...

Both Saren and TIM don't look like refusers. They would sacrifice
themselves for the greater good without any doubts, no matter they are
both pure renegades. So maybe we actually interrupted Synthesis attempt
in ME1 without even knowing about that? And did exactly the same thing
in ME3 in case if Shepard didn't choose Synthesis ending?
[/quote]

(11) This I have to wonder about, while both TIM and Saren were set up to look as though Control and Synthesis were their goals, I have to wonder, were they?  When we talk to TIM or Saren through a purely Paragon(for both) they see they are being controlled and decide to off themselves because their current vision is going to doom the Galaxy and these (atleast i think they do) visions/ideals are from their masters/cotrollers own persepectives.

I have not read the comics myself though i heard a theory a while ago that hypothesis that Saren and TIM's own traits are similar to that of reapers, because they were exposed to a reaper Monolith, this leading to them being purist/racist against other races and the adoptation of reaper ideals, control/indoctrination and Synthesis/reaperfication, but we can't be completely sure if they wouldn't have chosen destroy if they had not been affected by indoctrination, maybe TIM would go through with either control or Synthesis of his own Accord, but Saren was just scared, if their was an sbsoliute way to destroy the reapers, he might have taken it, because he did view them as too powerful and a threat to everyone's existance, but yeah

[quote]Seival wrote...

Maybe Synthesis is indeed the inevitable thing no matter how we
delay it, by Refusing, by Destorying, or by Controlling? The history
will always repeat itself till the final solution will be applied.

P.S. Even considering everything that was said above, I still prefer Control ending ../../../images/forum/emoticons/smile.png
[/quote]

(12) I may dislike the it (with all the glowing eyes, utopia that it creates out of nowhere, the connection it creates with everyon, and the wave of energy that turns every organic into cyborg, even the trees:o) but the way the Catalyst describes it seems more like some people will just decide to turn themselves into cyborgs to better their lives, not that it will occur naturally in nature, evolution never really makes us mechanical or creates cyborg parts for us does it?

Though the whole final step in evolution, i can see how being transformed into a machine/cyborg version of ourselves is the final step, we are perfected in that we are stronger, more intelligent, and probably live longer, kind of like comparing the reapers to the Leviathans, seriously who is more awesome the regular Cthulu or Mecha-cthulu, cause i would go with the latter if they were not complete pawns, but anyways you never know it may be innevitable for a society that is built on improving their everyday lives to one day want to to improve themselves via synthetic implants or some for cyberization-Synthesis.

But you never know, life can be destroyed before anything like this happens, technology used in the wrog hands could lead to something like destroy without the crucible or just simply we continue evolving until we become something greater or just become an Appex race, rule over a certain species, they build synthetics, synthetics rebell, then we build a synthetic to solve that issue and this one Synthesizes us to solve our small problem and we start the cycle all over again, endless posibilities and now my brain is fried:mellow:, but atleast being an immortal dictator has its' perks to being space dust, and no galactic genocide, though i still prefer Destroy, me or anyone else with that power I can not see going so well.
[/quote]

(1) You mean geth unit was unable to go 100 meters forward alone, because it doesn't know Cytadel's layout?
Saren is indeed the best Catalyst's asset in ME1, that's why it would be more logical for Saren to delay Shepard, and delegate "pressing two buttons on the console or hack" task to the Geth. But Saren prefered to do the task himself, so the task wasn't just about hacking or pressing several buttons.

(2) In ME3 there is no "magical elevator", there is mental conversation with the Catalyst. And it would be the same in case of Saren. And Reaper fleet would arrive indeed, but not for the harvest, but to be Synthesized with everyone else (in Dark Space those Reaper ships are unreachable by the explosions).

(3) And why whould Saren mention any details to the person who would never believe him? And what Saren actually mentioned is that he tries to forge an alliance between organics and Synthetics, which in that context sounds like Synthesis actually.

(4) Vigil's speech can't be used as a proof that Saren wasn't an anomaly like Shepard. Saren was indoctrinated, which means he wouldn't be given Control option. But Saren definitely would be given Synthesis option. This is the only difference in the ending mechanic compared to Shepard.

(5) Because Saren was an organic-anomaly. Only such anomaly can be used to perform Synthesis. And ME3 proved that Catalyst prefers to communicate directly with the ones who really deserve that instead of harvesting them immediately.

(6) Because it required a new organic-anomaly which will want to cooperate. And in the end Catalyst was able to choose between two anomalies in fact: Shepard and TIM.

(7) Doubtful. Also, Saren's body was wasted in the end, remember? No anomaly material left. After the Saren's defeat Catalyst most likely desided to waste Saren's body to get to the second anomaly it found (Shepard) immediately.

(8) Did you ever think that Saren and TIM might be just "renegade protagonists" instead of villains?

(9) The Catalyst just blocked the console to observe Shepard vs TIM situation to determine who of them will prove to be better. After the situation was resolved - Catalyst unlocked the console to let Shepard to open the Citadel.

(10) It's not a matter of Saren's choice. Catalyst would never give Saren Destroy option, because Saren was convinced that Destroying the Reapers isn't the right way. It would only give Saren options in which Saren believes. Just like in case of Shepard.

(11) We can only guess. Game has almost no content about that.

(12) So, basically you are not against inevitable Synthesis? [/quote]

(1) So the Geth always do the important jobs for Naz, I could have sworn where ever Naz went that Saren was always the general and the intelligents when he was shown and the Geth just appeared to follow their orders, but I guess all the Geth are like Legion and are of his intelligence.  Seriously they were equivalent to brainwless soldiers to it and left all the important work to Saren, and clicking 2 buttons, yeah, Saren had to Navigate his way through the Citadell, close it, probably deal with the protheans hacks, then secure a connection to Sovereign and the Citadell, and probably deal with other systems on the Citadell, it's not like the Geth are Sov's favorite and converse with it, they only worship and follow its orders nothing more, so do you send a child to do a small, but vital task or a good soldier/pawn.

(2)  If it was all a mental conversation, then it wouldn't matter if Shep got their or not, the Catalyst would be able to pull everyone in to converse with everyone, through its mental powers/indoctrination. Not to mention their is already a relay in Darkspace so it wouldn't matter if the reapers made it through or the realay or not, it would most likely reach since the their are vast amounts of relays in the galaxy some even in-active.

(3)  Forge an alliance does not equate properly equate to fusing all life in the universe, and really just because of that, they were near the end, the reapers were about to come through, and if convinced shoots himself because he sees what he's doing is wrong, that and Saren pretty much tells Shepard pretty much everything after Virmire.

Saren: I work for reapers, I'm scared of them, being a slaves better, Sov's going to kill me later, I think you may be right fightings better, nvm, I let Sov implant me and now we're best friends and are awesome.
Shep: your indoctrinated
Saren: oh your right, Sov's evil, Thnks for helping me, *shoots himself*

yeah we were pretty much Saren's psychiatrist in ME1.

(4) So Saren obeyed it out of fear, and was his puppet, and did everything that it couldn't for it, just like some of it's previous puppets or previous puppets to the Reapers in general, and if Indoctrinated people are viable why not just go out and get a ton of indoctrinated puppets and make them choose it, cause again Saren did not believe they could defeat the reapers, so he decided to try and be Naz/Reapers puppet and see if they would show some mercy, If he knew or was encouraged to fight (Paragon convince) then he would try and fight-destroy the reapers or blow his brains out, if being shown he's being controlled.

(5) Where does Saren prove/gets mentioned as an Anomly by anyone at all, he's mentioned as one of the best spectres-powerful, but Naz probably just views him as another tool that's why it gave him the implants, to improve him, and to make him follow their will, did Darth Sideous view Vader as different, nope just viewed him as another powerful pawn, he even tries to replace him with his son, Luke-StarWars.

(6)  So why didn't the Reapers allow TIM to dock the Citadel, because that was required for it to actually try it out at the least, nope all we get is TIM unable to dock the crucible and him trying to kill us, not exactly a good start.

(7) So Saren of his own Volition would never choose destroy if he was told it destroyed the unstoppable killing machines once and for al. anomaly material?  It doesn't need the body of some special and powerful person, It just needs the template of someone who fits the description as a Hybrid, which it can create, The Catalyst in low EMS destroy even has an attitude shift of the PC, not the same "oh wow your the anomoly, Commander Shepard" so if anything they view everyone as nothing more than useful tools to further their goal or as material that needs harvesting, being different or an anomaly doesn't interest the Catalyst that much, it just probably never had to deal with an Organic before Shep got their.

(8)They were not villains, just puppets in the end that cut their strings to be free(if convinced) , I thought of Saren as a villain first time in ME1, but then Naz showed up and I was like "Holy Sh**, this Machine guy is the real villain, awesome" felt bad for Saren.  TIM to a lesser extent without some context to the comics, but come on the way they portrayed TIM in ME3, just makes him look like the villain from those Saturday morning Cartoons.

TIM:yezz, Shepard I have been experimenting on people, doing what the main baddies doing right now, to help all of us, oh and I am going to stop you from creating the Crucible, even though I know its a way to subjugate the Reapers, I am going to fight you every step of the way, not try to work with you then betray you, cause that's so dumb, but work with the Reapers, also gonna tell them you know what the Catalyst is, because their is no way in hell that can back fire.

Come on, they turned him from somewhat brilliant, and mysterious to the stereotypical villain, does everything to screw with us, even though he could have just helped then Backstapped everyone, that just seems dumb, the element of surprise is good, exposing self bad.

(9)  No, the Reapers prevented TIM from getting near the open Citadel buttons on the consol, he even throws a fit when it's obvious to him he can't do it, I would disagree with you even further on this issue, but come on, throwing away a sure thing for someone who will probably destroy you if given the chance, what Calculating AI goes with emotion than Logic, TIM helping/picking a desirebable option is somewhat certain, Shep-nope, he/she's an unknown,  and that whole Control speech, why try to convince someone who is against the idea and then allow the guy who advocates similar ideals to your own die.

(10) actually, this idea is off, Saren has thought about destroying them, but understands that if they fought against them they would be destroyed, so most likely it would be offered like all the rest, if what you say is true, then Synthesis has no reason to exist in our endings either, why would it be their, Shep never was convinced that joining/becoming some Hybrid was a possible solution or something to believe in, granted he/she is partly cybernetic, but did not imagine that joining with the Reapers was a possible solution, all we heard was Control and Destroy through out the Game, no, Ooh joining them/hybridizing could be a way to defeat the reapers, unless you mean letting them Harvest us, which is giving up-which would mean Green= Harvest time.

(11)Agreed

(12) I am not in favor of Synthesis itself, but so were the train Companies not in favor of the rise of the automobile industry  and now cars are the better/prefered way of transportation, It could happen, because of the way people are-advancement is good and all, we even have some cybernectic/Bionic limbs in the works now in the real world,but it being a purely good thing, that is very debatable. I have varying view points on this, but I Guess it could be considered a way to ascend one's final evolution even further, once one can no longer evolve or change/better one self through natural means or just nature itself, they are able to further themselves through unnatural(Synthetic/Synthesis) ways, which does lead to advancing/forcefully evolving one-self even further than before, so that's the way i interpret what the kid say, even if your the strongest man alive you can become even stronger by augmenting yourself through some synthetic options.

Still favor destroy though, this one just seems to Happy and all especially with the reapers, and the glowing green eyes and trees, the glowing green eys and trees, why, why do they have glowing green eyes and glowing trees.

[Seival]

Demon560 wrote...

(1) So the Geth always do the important jobs for Naz, I could have sworn where ever Naz went that Saren was always the general and the intelligents when he was shown and the Geth just appeared to follow their orders, but I guess all the Geth are like Legion and are of his intelligence.  Seriously they were equivalent to brainwless soldiers to it and left all the important work to Saren, and clicking 2 buttons, yeah, Saren had to Navigate his way through the Citadell, close it, probably deal with the protheans hacks, then secure a connection to Sovereign and the Citadell, and probably deal with other systems on the Citadell, it's not like the Geth are Sov's favorite and converse with it, they only worship and follow its orders nothing more, so do you send a child to do a small, but vital task or a good soldier/pawn.

(2)  If it was all a mental conversation, then it wouldn't matter if Shep got their or not, the Catalyst would be able to pull everyone in to converse with everyone, through its mental powers/indoctrination. Not to mention their is already a relay in Darkspace so it wouldn't matter if the reapers made it through or the realay or not, it would most likely reach since the their are vast amounts of relays in the galaxy some even in-active.

(3)  Forge an alliance does not equate properly equate to fusing all life in the universe, and really just because of that, they were near the end, the reapers were about to come through, and if convinced shoots himself because he sees what he's doing is wrong, that and Saren pretty much tells Shepard pretty much everything after Virmire.

Saren: I work for reapers, I'm scared of them, being a slaves better, Sov's going to kill me later, I think you may be right fightings better, nvm, I let Sov implant me and now we're best friends and are awesome.
Shep: your indoctrinated
Saren: oh your right, Sov's evil, Thnks for helping me, *shoots himself*

yeah we were pretty much Saren's psychiatrist in ME1.

(4) So Saren obeyed it out of fear, and was his puppet, and did everything that it couldn't for it, just like some of it's previous puppets or previous puppets to the Reapers in general, and if Indoctrinated people are viable why not just go out and get a ton of indoctrinated puppets and make them choose it, cause again Saren did not believe they could defeat the reapers, so he decided to try and be Naz/Reapers puppet and see if they would show some mercy, If he knew or was encouraged to fight (Paragon convince) then he would try and fight-destroy the reapers or blow his brains out, if being shown he's being controlled.

(5) Where does Saren prove/gets mentioned as an Anomly by anyone at all, he's mentioned as one of the best spectres-powerful, but Naz probably just views him as another tool that's why it gave him the implants, to improve him, and to make him follow their will, did Darth Sideous view Vader as different, nope just viewed him as another powerful pawn, he even tries to replace him with his son, Luke-StarWars.

(6)  So why didn't the Reapers allow TIM to dock the Citadel, because that was required for it to actually try it out at the least, nope all we get is TIM unable to dock the crucible and him trying to kill us, not exactly a good start.

(7) So Saren of his own Volition would never choose destroy if he was told it destroyed the unstoppable killing machines once and for al. anomaly material?  It doesn't need the body of some special and powerful person, It just needs the template of someone who fits the description as a Hybrid, which it can create, The Catalyst in low EMS destroy even has an attitude shift of the PC, not the same "oh wow your the anomoly, Commander Shepard" so if anything they view everyone as nothing more than useful tools to further their goal or as material that needs harvesting, being different or an anomaly doesn't interest the Catalyst that much, it just probably never had to deal with an Organic before Shep got their.

(8)They were not villains, just puppets in the end that cut their strings to be free(if convinced) , I thought of Saren as a villain first time in ME1, but then Naz showed up and I was like "Holy Sh**, this Machine guy is the real villain, awesome" felt bad for Saren.  TIM to a lesser extent without some context to the comics, but come on the way they portrayed TIM in ME3, just makes him look like the villain from those Saturday morning Cartoons.

TIM:yezz, Shepard I have been experimenting on people, doing what the main baddies doing right now, to help all of us, oh and I am going to stop you from creating the Crucible, even though I know its a way to subjugate the Reapers, I am going to fight you every step of the way, not try to work with you then betray you, cause that's so dumb, but work with the Reapers, also gonna tell them you know what the Catalyst is, because their is no way in hell that can back fire.

Come on, they turned him from somewhat brilliant, and mysterious to the stereotypical villain, does everything to screw with us, even though he could have just helped then Backstapped everyone, that just seems dumb, the element of surprise is good, exposing self bad.

(9)  No, the Reapers prevented TIM from getting near the open Citadel buttons on the consol, he even throws a fit when it's obvious to him he can't do it, I would disagree with you even further on this issue, but come on, throwing away a sure thing for someone who will probably destroy you if given the chance, what Calculating AI goes with emotion than Logic, TIM helping/picking a desirebable option is somewhat certain, Shep-nope, he/she's an unknown,  and that whole Control speech, why try to convince someone who is against the idea and then allow the guy who advocates similar ideals to your own die.

(10) actually, this idea is off, Saren has thought about destroying them, but understands that if they fought against them they would be destroyed, so most likely it would be offered like all the rest, if what you say is true, then Synthesis has no reason to exist in our endings either, why would it be their, Shep never was convinced that joining/becoming some Hybrid was a possible solution or something to believe in, granted he/she is partly cybernetic, but did not imagine that joining with the Reapers was a possible solution, all we heard was Control and Destroy through out the Game, no, Ooh joining them/hybridizing could be a way to defeat the reapers, unless you mean letting them Harvest us, which is giving up-which would mean Green= Harvest time.

(11)Agreed

(12) I am not in favor of Synthesis itself, but so were the train Companies not in favor of the rise of the automobile industry  and now cars are the better/prefered way of transportation, It could happen, because of the way people are-advancement is good and all, we even have some cybernectic/Bionic limbs in the works now in the real world,but it being a purely good thing, that is very debatable. I have varying view points on this, but I Guess it could be considered a way to ascend one's final evolution even further, once one can no longer evolve or change/better one self through natural means or just nature itself, they are able to further themselves through unnatural(Synthetic/Synthesis) ways, which does lead to advancing/forcefully evolving one-self even further than before, so that's the way i interpret what the kid say, even if your the strongest man alive you can become even stronger by augmenting yourself through some synthetic options.

Still favor destroy though, this one just seems to Happy and all especially with the reapers, and the glowing green eyes and trees, the glowing green eys and trees, why, why do they have glowing green eyes and glowing trees.

(1) Let's remember the Eden Prime: "Set the charges. Destroy the entire colony. Leave no evidence we were here.". After that Saren go to the beacon and the geth set the charges. Could geth "read" the beacon? No, that's why Saren did that. We have the same situation in the end - geth weren't sent to "unlock" the Citadel, because that task wasn't just about unlocking. It was about something that geth was unable to perform - talking to the Catalyst. The Catalyst wouldn't bother talking to anyone, unless the person really deserves that... Only Saren, TIM and Shepard deserved that.

(2) If it was that easy, then Catalyst could talk to Shepard, TIM, and Anderson before they started to shoot each other. There are some unknown reasons why Catalyst prefers to talk only to one person, and only when noone interrupts.

(3) Catalyst had million of ears to experiment. And I gues it tried all possible solutions. So if it decided to start Cycled Harvests, then all previous solutions weren't ended well. Even Cycled Harvests proved to be a temporary solution - Catalyst admitted this itself. Which means the Synthesis is the only way to go, if we want to solve the problem forever, and will not have to sustain some artificial solution.

(4) Saren isn't a person who can be scared. And he knows that he is indoctrinated. He accepted that, and don't look to upset about that. In the final conversation Sheprd just played on Saran doubts. This doesn't prove that Saren was completely wrong. This only proves that Shepard has nice persuasion skill.

(5) We can't get any strong avidence to approve of disapprove that. We simply have no content for that. We can only guess, using some clues the game has.

(6) Because Shepard arrived. Catalyst had to decide who would be the better candidate, which entity would be wiser and stronger.

(7) It needs the anomaly template with it's own unique mind, which will cooperate willingly. And Catalyst would never give options in which that mind doesn't believe.

(8) Saren and TIM are under control, but they are not "puppets". Both have intentions to deal with the Reaper problem without destroying them. And both don't see Reapers as an enemy. Saren and TIM see the Reapers as a tool, which they really are - Leviathan proved that.

(9) The console was obviousely locked at that point. Noone could use it, unless Catalyst unlocks it. Do you think the Catalyst feares to be destroyed or fears anything at all? It's an AI, and AIs don't know what the fear is. They just follow their code. Besides, Catalyst's destruction doesn't make Synthesis impossible, but only delays it. The Catalyst has to respect anomaly's opinion, because the anomaly has to cooperate willingly.

(10) I think that the more knowledge about the Reapers Saren gets, the less he wants to destroy them. At some point he just stopped considering Destroy as a viable option, just like TIM. Not because the Reapers are unstoppable, but because you don't have to destroy a tool to change its purpose.

(11) Ok

(12) So, just like in case of many other Synthesis dislikers your main concern are glowing eyes, skin, and trees? Don't worry. Glow could be a temporary post-Synthesis effect. For example, several years after the Synthesis glow isn't visible by default, but becomes visible, when someone uses a power. Synthesis is mostly about internal changes, not external ones.

Modifié par Seival, 26 octobre 2012 - 09:24 .

[DoomsdayDevice]

Seival wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

For obvious reasons: the fans felt like they weren't given enough explanation. Where did my squadmates go? Who or what is this child exactly?

They answered all of these questions, while maintaining their artistic vision of the ending. They even added on to the illusions, but here's the thing:

If you pay attention, there are some very cool subtle hints in the EC.

The soldier, fighting in the streets. In the synthesis and control endings, the sequence is identical: a husk throws himself upon the soldier, he is overcome, and he's losing the fight.

In destroy (and only in destroy), the soldier shoots the husk down. And another one. More husks keep coming, but he takes them out, and keeps fighting, no matter how many are coming.

The subliminal message: you win in destroy, you lose in control/synthesis.

Also, there's no victory cheering in synthesis, which leads me to believe Synthesis is the worst option.

The endings just have to look differently. This is the only reason for different fight sequences.

Control and Synthesis are on positive side, so the epilogue doesn't show much deaths. And Destroy is clearly on negative side, so a lot of deaths were shown...

...Who cares about the enemy losses? The ones who prefer to say "Nobody else dies today!" maybe? The ones, who prefer Control and Synthesis.

Bailey: I think all the reports are starting to sink in. You can only live in denial so long.

Shepard: You either wake up or die.

(...)

Bailey: I guess it's not just human nature. We all lie to ourselves to deal with horror.

Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 26 octobre 2012 - 09:22 .

[Seival]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Bailey: I guess it's not just human nature. We all lie to ourselves to deal with horror.

This is exactly what ITers do actually. Lie to themselves to throw away the obvious things thay don't like.

There is another way. You can accept everything as it is, and build your moral choises on that. You like Destroy? You have such option. All you need is to choose it in game and see what happens.

...Think about the endings more, and without unneeded emotions. Maybe some day you will like the inevitable Synthesis idea just like me

[DoomsdayDevice]

Seival wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Bailey: I guess it's not just human nature. We all lie to ourselves to deal with horror.

This is exactly what ITers do actually. Lie to themselves to throw away the obvious things thay don't like.

Please hear me out on this one. You may have heard some of this stuff before, but I'm building up to something like I haven't done before. Here's an honest attempt at trying to explain why I see this the way I do.

The three games are full of scenarios foreshadowing control and synthesis, and none of them end well. There's a reason for that. Control and synthesis are only supported by villains, there's a reason for that. All your friends and allies tell you there's only one way to defeat the Reapers, there's a reason for that. Who's your moral compass?

The end choices are about the themes of Mass Effect that you are supposed to understand. That people who are being controlled, have no freedom, and that without freedom, they might as well be dead. That people who have been forcibly changed, are no longer themselves anymore, and might as well be dead. That people should shape their own future, and not tread the quick and easy path the Reapers are offering them. By accepting the paths the Reapers laid out for us, we followed the mass relays and flocked like sheep into the Citadel Venus Fly Trap.

Project Overlord teaches us how the road to hell is paved with good intentions. They wanted to avoid a bloody war, so they tried to mind control an entire race, just so they could have a victory without casualties. Sound familiar? They had good intentions, and thought the end would justify the means. But the means backfired on them. It took control of them. Those who wanted to control, ended up being enslaved by the machine.  Sound familiar?

It's a very common theme. Just look at Anakin Skywalker who fell to the dark side, just because he wanted to save his wife. He thought the end would justify the means, but the means ended up backfiring on him, because by succumbing to the dark side, he ended up killing her.

So yes, they had good intentions, but they took the quick and easy path, and so they did the evil that men do in the name of good. So next time you play the ending, take a moment and think about this. When you want to pick control, because you don't want to kill EDI & the Geth, ask yourself if you're not taking the quick and easy path. You're going to try and control an entire race to avoid a bloody war. Are you sure the joke's not going to be on you, like it was on David? Think about it.

This is what you are supposed to have taken away from Project Overlord and all the other stories in the games.

To quote Shepard (like I did above)...

"You either wake up or die..." (Sound familiar?)

Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 26 octobre 2012 - 10:06 .

[Seival]

If someone caused a catastrophe with good intentions, it doesn't mean every good intention will cause the catostrophe. Epilogues show us that Control really means Control, Synthesis really means Synthesis, Destroy really means Destroy, and Refusal really means Refusal.

...Oh, and about the freedom. It's an illusion. Freedom doesn't exist, and real life is the living example of that. To be free you have to stay alone in the vacuum far away in the space between the galaxies. And we all know this is impossible, because even if you get there, you will die in matter of seconds.

Modifié par Seival, 26 octobre 2012 - 10:18 .

[DoomsdayDevice]

Seival wrote...

If someone caused a catastrophe with good intentions, it doesn't mean every good intention will cause the catostrophe.

That's not what I'm saying. It's when your end justifies your means that good intentions will do harm. Within the context of the Mass Effect universe, all who wanted to control, ended up being controlled. Who are you to think you won't?

David Archer wanted to control the Geth to avoid a bloody war, he ended up enslaved by the machine.
TIM wanted to control the Reapers, use their power for good, and ended up being controlled.
The Protheans fell because they were betrayed by an indoctrinated faction who though they could control the Reapers.

It is the promise of power that corrupts. That is the Reapers' weapon. That is why power hungry people will keep the collector base. Tens of thousands of people were processed there to create the human Reaper, but the end justifies the means. The promise of power, to defeat the Reapers by using their own technology against them.

But in doing so, we once again take the path the Reapers set out for us. We must defeat them on our own terms. We must reach a technology level on our owns terms. I think that is why the relays were destroyed in the original ending. It was a symbol for freeing ourselves from Reaper tech, the paths laid out before us by others. We need to achieve our own future, like Legion says.

Just look at what Legion says after destroying the Collector base:

Legion: an interesting choice, Shepard Commander. Your species was offered everything Geth aspire to. True unity. Understanding. Transcendence. You rejected it. You even refused the possibility of using the Old Machines' gifts to achieve it on your species' own terms. You are more like us than we thought.

True unity, understanding, transcendence... sound familiar? That is exactly what the Reapers are offering you in the synthesis ending, all on their terms. The path the Reapers lay out for us.

The fact that we build the Crucible without knowing what it does, is symbolical for the fact that organics literally aren't ready. By building the Crucible, we are again following the path others laid out for us. Technology beyond our comprehension. Using it will lead to our doom. That is why we literally need to blow it up.

Look at what Mordin says about species not being ready for advancement. According to Mordin, a state of 'perfection' would be detrimental.

Mordin: "Disrupts socio-technological balance. All scientific advancement due to intelligence overcoming, compensating, for limitations. Can't carry a load, so invent wheel. Can't catch food, so invent spear. Limitations. No limitations, no advancement. No advancement, culture stagnates. Works other way too. Advancement before culture is ready. Disastrous."


Still feel good about synthesis?

Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 26 octobre 2012 - 10:59 .

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

We do have a squadmate who represents control.

[Seival]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Still feel good about synthesis?

Synthesis is the best way to go (especially after Control). Synthesis concept just requires proper understanding.

This understanding can't be built just around the last few minutes of ME3. You should analize the Synthesis concept based on the entire trilogy, even on some ME1 events. The concept was always there, but was voiced only in ME3 ending.

[TJBartlemus]

Seival wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Bailey: I guess it's not just human nature. We all lie to ourselves to deal with horror.

This is exactly what ITers do actually. Lie to themselves to throw away the obvious things thay don't like.

There is another way. You can accept everything as it is, and build your moral choises on that. You like Destroy? You have such option. All you need is to choose it in game and see what happens.

...Think about the endings more, and without unneeded emotions. Maybe some day you will like the inevitable Synthesis idea just like me

 All choices have consequences. Why is it you cannot handle that Synthesis and Control being choices advocated by your enemies would have bad consequences? 

Here is another question. Being as BioWare has the entire game series given choices that have good and bad consequences, why would they change for the finale of the entire trilogy?

[Argolas]

Seival wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Still feel good about synthesis?

Synthesis is the best way to go (especially after Control). Synthesis concept just requires proper understanding.

Aye, you need to adapt the catalyst's, that is the reapers' way of thinking.

[TJBartlemus]

Seival wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Still feel good about synthesis?

Synthesis is the best way to go (especially after Control). Synthesis concept just requires proper understanding.

This understanding can't be built just around the last few minutes of ME3. You should analize the Synthesis concept based on the entire trilogy, even on some ME1 events. The concept was always there, but was voiced only in ME3 ending.

Guess what. So has the Destroy and Control endings. You also know of another important theme throughout the series? Indoctrination. Hmmmmm.....

[Metalunatic]

Synthesis can kiss my ass. /thread

[Demon560]

Seival wrote...
.

(1) Think abou this, the only ones who really handled the Citadel are the Keepers, most likely they are the only ones with Sufficient knowledge about the Citadell to access or activate a lot of the functions throughout the Citadel, Now Naz' is a racist/speciest Reaper, is disgusted by the Geth, It probably gave Saren enough Info on how to turn over the Citadel to it, it doesn't take just 2 buttons otherwise almost anyone would be able to access it, are you seriously going to trust something you consider lesser than most Organics with a serious task and give it some of your knowledge/info on it, Sovereign also created a connection/implants with him so in a way he was also taking part in the operation, and whatever happened after this moment Naz would be aware of Saren's action and prevent him from going against the plan.

-summary: a lot more unknowns/advance protocols to use the Reaper created megastructure and Sov, likes Saren.

(2) So Shep connecting the Crucible to the Catalyst had nothing to do with it, It's an extremely advanced AI, the Levi's and Reapers can indoctrinate any within their vacinity, are you telling me their leader/collective can not.

-summary: AI very advance leader of mind controlling race.

(3) Not exactly the responce to my 3, but why not just go in and activate the Citadel at the Start or attempt to why wait, you lose more samples the longer the war is and the possibility of succeeding in perfect Synthesis becomes less and less likely with the more husks and Reaper parts you create.

-summary: probably should have just gone after Citadel at start of ME3 then, less loss of genetic material and all you'd need to focus on capturing Shep.

(4) He didn't seem to think he was under full/near full control from Naz, Saren was Scared of the Reapers and being fully indoctrinated-Virmire-, he knew what would happen if everyone tries to fight the Reapers-destruction- used the protheans as an example which no one, but Harvy the Reapers knew about apparently, you should see the conversation again, He tries to fight the Indoc., fails, and if convinced to try to fight the Reaper's control again Kills himself, even thanking Shep for helping him redeem himself, showing him the ligh out of the dark tunnel in a way.

-summary:Saren no realize he was under total control, knew fighting = extinction, and should see Vid again, shoots self when convinced to fight Reaper Indoctrination and help stop them.

(5) I would actually like to hear why you think he's an anomaly, Saren is important to Sovereign for its objective, like the collector are Harby's favored tools.

-Summary:  your idea why Saren is an anomaly.

(6) Yeah, the dominance thing kind of doesn't really matter if their template is all you need, one is a sure shot the other not so much, and why have them fight, you already have one under your control and know that-Saren example- having a controlled subject will kill itself if shown it's being mind controlled, not to mention the conversation only happens after the Crucible docks.

-summary: Why have them kill each other, you only need their template to make it possible, and their help is possible while indoctrinated/sure thing.

(7) So an indoctrinated/forced/brainwashed mind is a willing mind?, and, we all thought Synthesis was a possible solution to the reaper problem before the Catalyst talks about it? I could have sworn that they only mention Control and Destroy in most of my playthroughs, aside from that whole huskification/reaperization that we were fighting against, either the options are all of the catalyst designs or the crucible, because before the kid Synthesis was not something the PC believed in.

-summary: Indoctrination not willing, and synthesis came out of the blue, wasn't a desired/thought of way to defeat reapers- aside from Huskification/Reaperization,

(8)  Both sort of are Reaper puppets/minions, TIM may have viewed them as possible tools to further the human race, but Saren, now that one you are wrong, Saren viewed them as a superior race capable of our destrcution, a threat we could not defeat and would be anihilated like the Protheans if we tried, your using trying to mix the ME3 logic and ME1 way of seeing the enemy, which doesn't work, back then they were viewed as an unstoppable force, laying waste to even the most advance civiliazations, Saren even seems like the type who has given up on all hope of fighting the enemy, because you know what will happen if you do.

-Summary: Saren was scared of the Reapers and viewed them as our extinction if we did not cooperate, believed they destroyed not created Reapers out of them, different game/Me1 different beliefs in their motivations/ME3.

(9)  Yeah, somehow have a hard time believing that, when TIM doesn't even turn around to get near the consel or anything, just stays facing you, and has a headache then state "I'm in Control, no ones telling me what to do" when you tell him he's being controlled, and the Self Preservation thing would disagree with you, and again indoctrinating would not count as willing.

-Summary: TIM doesn't look at consel or go near it, even has a hard time in realizing he's being controlled.

(10)  Yet him choosing to shoot himself instead of cooperating with them/choosing to fight them, as well as him mentioning the destruction of the prothean, Naz being a machine, and the lack  of understanding of what Nazara's/the reapers intentions were, since he doesn't correct himself, mention any details that are later discovered in the MEU.

-Summary:  Shooting oneself and saying thnx to the one who helped you do this kind of conflict with that they though the Reapers purposes and goals were not good for everyone, as well as some info that Naz/Reapers had, but Saren lacked.


(12)  That was just me having some fun with the whole thing, but the main issue is that it does affect your brain in a way to connect you to everyone else, but a whole lot of other things are possible with this one than the rest, indoctrination, brainwashing, reaperfication, etc., Destroy-worse everyone destroyed/best a lot but not all destroyed just targeted, Control- Dictator either way but nice/ or aggressive dictator matters, Synthesis- Advance you with tech and connects you with everyone the rest is uncertaintly vague, a Utopia can be created in the worst way possible by destroying everyones free wills, and giving them an grand illusion where all their dreams come true, but their bodies are used in the real world to better the uniiverse, a lot of possibilities for its downside from a certain perspective, just like a lot of possibilities for it's up, but whatever next game(ME4) all our choices including this one will be irrelevant or might see some consequences of our choices.

-Summary:To many bad "What If" scenarios possible and it does affect your brain, others more predictable.

[DoomsdayDevice]

Seival wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Still feel good about synthesis?

You should analize the Synthesis concept based on the entire trilogy, even on some ME1 events. The concept was always there, but was voiced only in ME3 ending.

Yeah, I just did that. I quoted Mordin. I quoted Legion. I quoted all the stuff from Project Overlord. I explained to you how Project Overlord is a perfect illustration of control/synthesis scenarios being a no-no. I drew all these parallels to synthesis, but it's like you don't even read what I'm writing.

Shepard: You mentioned before your people had problems with AI.
Javik: The Zha'til. They were as the Geth to this cycle.
Shepard: What happened?
Javik: Their creators lived on a dying world. It was beyond their ability to save. So they resorted to implants to enhance their intelligence.
Shepard: I think I know where this is going.
Javik: The AI seized the physical body. It could alter the genetic material at the deepest level. In time, the offspring were molded into a slave race. Few organic traces were left. They were monsters.

Another example of synthesis gone wrong. Great track record.


Shepard: Is it how we survive? Adapting?
Tali: To cold, or inter-species contact, yes. To the Reapers, no.

Samara: "If you change who someone is, how they think, you have killed them. They will be something new in the same body."

The bottom line is, in the ME games, you meddle with stuff to 'uplift it', it's going to bite you in the ass.
Look how uplifting the Krogan worked out. We need to achieve our own future. Not upgrade ourselves with Reaper tech.

Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 27 octobre 2012 - 04:05 .

[MegaSovereign]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Seival wrote...

If someone caused a catastrophe with good intentions, it doesn't mean every good intention will cause the catostrophe.

That's not what I'm saying. It's when your end justifies your means that good intentions will do harm. Within the context of the Mass Effect universe, all who wanted to control, ended up being controlled. Who are you to think you won't?

David Archer wanted to control the Geth to avoid a bloody war, he ended up enslaved by the machine.
TIM wanted to control the Reapers, use their power for good, and ended up being controlled.
The Protheans fell because they were betrayed by an indoctrinated faction who though they could control the Reapers.

It is the promise of power that corrupts. That is the Reapers' weapon. That is why power hungry people will keep the collector base. Tens of thousands of people were processed there to create the human Reaper, but the end justifies the means. The promise of power, to defeat the Reapers by using their own technology against them.

But in doing so, we once again take the path the Reapers set out for us. We must defeat them on our own terms. We must reach a technology level on our owns terms. I think that is why the relays were destroyed in the original ending. It was a symbol for freeing ourselves from Reaper tech, the paths laid out before us by others. We need to achieve our own future, like Legion says.

Just look at what Legion says after destroying the Collector base:

Legion: an interesting choice, Shepard Commander. Your species was offered everything Geth aspire to. True unity. Understanding. Transcendence. You rejected it. You even refused the possibility of using the Old Machines' gifts to achieve it on your species' own terms. You are more like us than we thought.

True unity, understanding, transcendence... sound familiar? That is exactly what the Reapers are offering you in the synthesis ending, all on their terms. The path the Reapers lay out for us.

The fact that we build the Crucible without knowing what it does, is symbolical for the fact that organics literally aren't ready. By building the Crucible, we are again following the path others laid out for us. Technology beyond our comprehension. Using it will lead to our doom. That is why we literally need to blow it up.

Look at what Mordin says about species not being ready for advancement. According to Mordin, a state of 'perfection' would be detrimental.

Mordin: "Disrupts socio-technological balance. All scientific advancement due to intelligence overcoming, compensating, for limitations. Can't carry a load, so invent wheel. Can't catch food, so invent spear. Limitations. No limitations, no advancement. No advancement, culture stagnates. Works other way too. Advancement before culture is ready. Disastrous."


Still feel good about synthesis?

I liked your post up until you said we need to blow up the Crucible...How the hell are we going to beat the Reapers then?

[Seival]

Demon560 wrote...

(1) Think abou this, the only ones who really handled the Citadel are the Keepers, most likely they are the only ones with Sufficient knowledge about the Citadell to access or activate a lot of the functions throughout the Citadel, Now Naz' is a racist/speciest Reaper, is disgusted by the Geth, It probably gave Saren enough Info on how to turn over the Citadel to it, it doesn't take just 2 buttons otherwise almost anyone would be able to access it, are you seriously going to trust something you consider lesser than most Organics with a serious task and give it some of your knowledge/info on it, Sovereign also created a connection/implants with him so in a way he was also taking part in the operation, and whatever happened after this moment Naz would be aware of Saren's action and prevent him from going against the plan.

-summary: a lot more unknowns/advance protocols to use the Reaper created megastructure and Sov, likes Saren.

(2) So Shep connecting the Crucible to the Catalyst had nothing to do with it, It's an extremely advanced AI, the Levi's and Reapers can indoctrinate any within their vacinity, are you telling me their leader/collective can not.

-summary: AI very advance leader of mind controlling race.

(3) Not exactly the responce to my 3, but why not just go in and activate the Citadel at the Start or attempt to why wait, you lose more samples the longer the war is and the possibility of succeeding in perfect Synthesis becomes less and less likely with the more husks and Reaper parts you create.

-summary: probably should have just gone after Citadel at start of ME3 then, less loss of genetic material and all you'd need to focus on capturing Shep.

(4) He didn't seem to think he was under full/near full control from Naz, Saren was Scared of the Reapers and being fully indoctrinated-Virmire-, he knew what would happen if everyone tries to fight the Reapers-destruction- used the protheans as an example which no one, but Harvy the Reapers knew about apparently, you should see the conversation again, He tries to fight the Indoc., fails, and if convinced to try to fight the Reaper's control again Kills himself, even thanking Shep for helping him redeem himself, showing him the ligh out of the dark tunnel in a way.

-summary:Saren no realize he was under total control, knew fighting = extinction, and should see Vid again, shoots self when convinced to fight Reaper Indoctrination and help stop them.

(5) I would actually like to hear why you think he's an anomaly, Saren is important to Sovereign for its objective, like the collector are Harby's favored tools.

-Summary:  your idea why Saren is an anomaly.

(6) Yeah, the dominance thing kind of doesn't really matter if their template is all you need, one is a sure shot the other not so much, and why have them fight, you already have one under your control and know that-Saren example- having a controlled subject will kill itself if shown it's being mind controlled, not to mention the conversation only happens after the Crucible docks.

-summary: Why have them kill each other, you only need their template to make it possible, and their help is possible while indoctrinated/sure thing.

(7) So an indoctrinated/forced/brainwashed mind is a willing mind?, and, we all thought Synthesis was a possible solution to the reaper problem before the Catalyst talks about it? I could have sworn that they only mention Control and Destroy in most of my playthroughs, aside from that whole huskification/reaperization that we were fighting against, either the options are all of the catalyst designs or the crucible, because before the kid Synthesis was not something the PC believed in.

-summary: Indoctrination not willing, and synthesis came out of the blue, wasn't a desired/thought of way to defeat reapers- aside from Huskification/Reaperization,

(8)  Both sort of are Reaper puppets/minions, TIM may have viewed them as possible tools to further the human race, but Saren, now that one you are wrong, Saren viewed them as a superior race capable of our destrcution, a threat we could not defeat and would be anihilated like the Protheans if we tried, your using trying to mix the ME3 logic and ME1 way of seeing the enemy, which doesn't work, back then they were viewed as an unstoppable force, laying waste to even the most advance civiliazations, Saren even seems like the type who has given up on all hope of fighting the enemy, because you know what will happen if you do.

-Summary: Saren was scared of the Reapers and viewed them as our extinction if we did not cooperate, believed they destroyed not created Reapers out of them, different game/Me1 different beliefs in their motivations/ME3.

(9)  Yeah, somehow have a hard time believing that, when TIM doesn't even turn around to get near the consel or anything, just stays facing you, and has a headache then state "I'm in Control, no ones telling me what to do" when you tell him he's being controlled, and the Self Preservation thing would disagree with you, and again indoctrinating would not count as willing.

-Summary: TIM doesn't look at consel or go near it, even has a hard time in realizing he's being controlled.

(10)  Yet him choosing to shoot himself instead of cooperating with them/choosing to fight them, as well as him mentioning the destruction of the prothean, Naz being a machine, and the lack  of understanding of what Nazara's/the reapers intentions were, since he doesn't correct himself, mention any details that are later discovered in the MEU.

-Summary:  Shooting oneself and saying thnx to the one who helped you do this kind of conflict with that they though the Reapers purposes and goals were not good for everyone, as well as some info that Naz/Reapers had, but Saren lacked.


(12)  That was just me having some fun with the whole thing, but the main issue is that it does affect your brain in a way to connect you to everyone else, but a whole lot of other things are possible with this one than the rest, indoctrination, brainwashing, reaperfication, etc., Destroy-worse everyone destroyed/best a lot but not all destroyed just targeted, Control- Dictator either way but nice/ or aggressive dictator matters, Synthesis- Advance you with tech and connects you with everyone the rest is uncertaintly vague, a Utopia can be created in the worst way possible by destroying everyones free wills, and giving them an grand illusion where all their dreams come true, but their bodies are used in the real world to better the uniiverse, a lot of possibilities for its downside from a certain perspective, just like a lot of possibilities for it's up, but whatever next game(ME4) all our choices including this one will be irrelevant or might see some consequences of our choices.

-Summary:To many bad "What If" scenarios possible and it does affect your brain, others more predictable.

(1) If Saren knows the vital tactical info, then all geth (at least in his own ground team) also know that. What if Saren fails? Someone has to replace him to finish the job. Saren was unreplaceable for this task, which means task wasn't just about hacking or pressing two buttons. Just like in case of beacon on Eden Prime.

(2) It's not that easy, and last minutes of ME1 and ME3 prove that. If the Catalyst could influence everyone in the room to force them do do what it wants, then ME1 would be the end of the story.

(3) Activate from the start how? Where is the Crucible or a repurposed Reaper? Where is anomaly which will agree to cooperate. All of this must be obtained first, and only after that Synthesis can be performed.

There were no anomalies in previous cycles, they started to appear only in current cycle. Three anomalies already. And there will be more. You just need to search them. Catalyst doesn't need to hurry. It keeps situation under its control as always. The more carefully it will approach to the problem's resolving, the better will be the outcome... That's why I prefer to delay Synthesis with Control.

(4) Fully indoctrinated = harvested. Both Saren and TIM were on the early stages of indoctrination, and so act on their own. They just shared Catalyst's way of thinking. Catalyst interfered directly only once - when Shepard successfuly played on Saren's doubts. And even in that case Catalyst couldn't overcome Saren's will completely. We see the similar situation in case of TIM. Indoctrination is not as easy as you believe. Indoctrination is like charm skill, rised to the new level. Catalyst indoctrinated Saren, but that doesn't mean Catalyst had evil intentions. New harvest beginning could be Shepard's fall, because Shepard interrupted the the initial plan.

(5) As I told before, anomaly is required to perform the Synthesis. And Saren's final task was obviously much more complicated than just hacking or pressing several buttons.

(6) After Shepard's actions Catalyst clearly sees Shepard as the best anomaly it has right now. So the final conversation with TIM was just a final Shepard's trial. If Shepard fails, Catalyst uses TIM instead.

(7) Saren cooperates willingly. We see no direct Catalyst's interventions most of the time. Which means Saren isn't just a puppet. He is just on the Catalyst's side. Otherwise, Saren would be some kind of fully harvested Collector General or a hask (the same goes for TIM). And of course Synthesis wasn't obvious in ME1 and ME2. But it is obvious now, when we know everything and look back on all game events.

(8) We don't know everything Saren thinks and does. He might have seen Reapers as a threat initially, but at some point he changed his mind. There are clues for that in Virmire conversation, where Saren speaks about how good the alliance he is talking about could be.

(9) You may not believe that, but we both have no way to know for sure.

(10) That was mostly Shepard's fall. Shepard managed to force Saren to feel guilty for all deaths he caused. Saren died because of Shepard's influence, not because of Catalyst influence. And we see the same thing in case of TIM.

(12) Freedom is an illusion. Freedom doesn't exist, and never existed. We can only choose the ways to control and being under control. Real life itself proves that. So, you have no reasons to dislike Synthesis or Control.

Modifié par Seival, 27 octobre 2012 - 03:35 .

[Seival]

TJBartlemus wrote...

Seival wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Bailey: I guess it's not just human nature. We all lie to ourselves to deal with horror.

This is exactly what ITers do actually. Lie to themselves to throw away the obvious things thay don't like.

There is another way. You can accept everything as it is, and build your moral choises on that. You like Destroy? You have such option. All you need is to choose it in game and see what happens.

...Think about the endings more, and without unneeded emotions. Maybe some day you will like the inevitable Synthesis idea just like me

(1) All choices have consequences. Why is it you cannot handle that Synthesis and Control being choices advocated by your enemies would have bad consequences? 

(2) Here is another question. Being as BioWare has the entire game series given choices that have good and bad consequences, why would they change for the finale of the entire trilogy?

(1) And why should I? Especially when the epilogues show Control and Synthesis in so positive manner. And don't tell me that "epilogues are fake", please

(2) "Good" and "bad" are too subjective entities. There are no good or bad choices/consequences in the game. There is something you like, and something you don't like.

Modifié par Seival, 27 octobre 2012 - 04:07 .

[3DandBeyond]

Seival wrote...

Synthesis is the best way to go (especially after Control). Synthesis concept just requires proper understanding.

And your opinion of it is just about as salient as the catalyst's.  If you and he like it, there's something wrong with it.

I say this because I've read a lot of your "theories" and I can only assume they come from the mind of a very young person or some other thing I can't ever and don't ever want to understand.

This is one of your lovely ideas:


"...Let's say 500 years have passed (more than a duration of war between Quarians and Geth, i.e a lot!).

Control
Catalyst-Shepard not only helped Galactic Civilization to rebuild, and prevented many conflicts, but also managed to study and improve Synthesis mechanics and explained it to people. Catalyst-Shepard also asked people if they want
Synthesis, and most agreed. Everyone, who disagreed were moved into one of the star clusters, and Relays in this cluster were temporary  disabled. Crucible is still on the Citadel, Synthesis mechanics was improved, and Catalyst-Shepard found a way to trigger Synthesis without Crucible/Citadel/MassRelays destruction, and sacrificing anyone. Synthesis was used, and temporary disabled Relays (see above) were reactivated. So, everyone who wanted Synthesis got it, and everyone who didn't want Synthesis kept their regular DNA."

The bolded part is your idea that effectively creates concentration camps for anyone who doesn't want to be synthesized.  Apparently this is being done so it won't happen to them, but since this "idea" lacks any understanding of time or logistics, including food toxicity to some (say the Turians and Quarians) as well as how to get everyone together in order to do this since many who don't trust tech, don't want implants, and so wouldn't want to board any ships and be moved out of their homes.  This is laughable.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 27 octobre 2012 - 09:01 .

[3DandBeyond]

Seival wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

@ A Bethesda Fan,

Yeah, the reapers are our friends. Just ignore the people goo over in the corner there. Oh and all the dead bodies on the citadel, just waiting for the keepers to make the goo.

I think that Synthesis plan was interrupted during ME1 events, and so Catalyst decided to continue the harvest till it find a new organic anomaly.

This is all fan fiction.  Wrong forum.  There's nothing to support what you say.  In fact, Saren got a lot of "upgrades" from Sovereign so he was mostly tech at the end.  However, there's a lot in the ending that insinuates it was Shepard's organic material that was needed. 

The story in ME1 was very straightforward.  The plan was to signal the reapers to come and begin the harvest.  If some other plan was in motion using Saren that could have been done right away without all that running around to find beacons, gather geth, indoctrinate people, gather Krogans, and so on.  Saren was a Spectre and was allowed to go all over the Citadel.  They could have done all of this well before Saren became an "outlaw".  He could have sabotaged a lot of things on the Citadel and then made it possible for Sovereign to dock (surprise) and gotten to the Citadel core before anyone knew what was happening if that was the plan.  And that could also have been done at any time if that was the goal of the reapers.  Sneak up on them when no one is looking.

Shepard is seen by the Catalyst as unique (as is all of humanity) and he specifically says it's because they created the crucible and no one ever got that far before.  Considering that a crucible is a test and a catalyst is something that starts or facilitates a process, I think the crucible is the key.

But you think Sovereign is a crucible-what that says is you think the choices are reaper/catalyst made choices.  You've come full circle to now agreeing with anyone ever that said not to trust the choices because they exist to help the reapers and the kid and if Sovereign is supposed to coordinate with the citadel to make them happen, then congratulations, you've just proven why Shepard should not want to make one of the choices.

[Seival]

What I've proven is that ME Universe is much more complicated than "good and bad", "we destroy them or they destroy us", "the ancient evil has returned", etc. The Story is deep and instructive. It force you to analize the events, theorise, and make very interesting conclusions.

I think that people who dislike Synthesis just don't have full understanding of it. And they can't even imagine how good is Synthesis as the way to expand ME Universe. New ME stories based on Synthesized universe would be awesome.

[RebelTitan428]

to the OP


did you have a Q & A with yourself?

[Demon560]

Seival wrote...

(1) If Saren knows the vital tactical info, then all geth (at least in his own ground team) also know that. What if Saren fails? Someone has to replace him to finish the job. Saren was unreplaceable for this task, which means task wasn't just about hacking or pressing two buttons. Just like in case of beacon on Eden Prime.

(2) It's not that easy, and last minutes of ME1 and ME3 prove that. If the Catalyst could influence everyone in the room to force them do do what it wants, then ME1 would be the end of the story.

(3) Activate from the start how? Where is the Crucible or a repurposed Reaper? Where is anomaly which will agree to cooperate. All of this must be obtained first, and only after that Synthesis can be performed.

There were no anomalies in previous cycles, they started to appear only in current cycle. Three anomalies already. And there will be more. You just need to search them. Catalyst doesn't need to hurry. It keeps situation under its control as always. The more carefully it will approach to the problem's resolving, the better will be the outcome... That's why I prefer to delay Synthesis with Control.

(4) Fully indoctrinated = harvested. Both Saren and TIM were on the early stages of indoctrination, and so act on their own. They just shared Catalyst's way of thinking. Catalyst interfered directly only once - when Shepard successfuly played on Saren's doubts. And even in that case Catalyst couldn't overcome Saren's will completely. We see the similar situation in case of TIM. Indoctrination is not as easy as you believe. Indoctrination is like charm skill, rised to the new level. Catalyst indoctrinated Saren, but that doesn't mean Catalyst had evil intentions. New harvest beginning could be Shepard's fall, because Shepard interrupted the the initial plan.

(5) As I told before, anomaly is required to perform the Synthesis. And Saren's final task was obviously much more complicated than just hacking or pressing several buttons.

(6) After Shepard's actions Catalyst clearly sees Shepard as the best anomaly it has right now. So the final conversation with TIM was just a final Shepard's trial. If Shepard fails, Catalyst uses TIM instead.

(7) Saren cooperates willingly. We see no direct Catalyst's interventions most of the time. Which means Saren isn't just a puppet. He is just on the Catalyst's side. Otherwise, Saren would be some kind of fully harvested Collector General or a hask (the same goes for TIM). And of course Synthesis wasn't obvious in ME1 and ME2. But it is obvious now, when we know everything and look back on all game events.

(8) We don't know everything Saren thinks and does. He might have seen Reapers as a threat initially, but at some point he changed his mind. There are clues for that in Virmire conversation, where Saren speaks about how good the alliance he is talking about could be.

(9) You may not believe that, but we both have no way to know for sure.

(10) That was mostly Shepard's fall. Shepard managed to force Saren to feel guilty for all deaths he caused. Saren died because of Shepard's influence, not because of Catalyst influence. And we see the same thing in case of TIM.

(12) Freedom is an illusion. Freedom doesn't exist, and never existed. We can only choose the ways to control and being under control. Real life itself proves that. So, you have no reasons to dislike Synthesis or Control.

(1) And yet the Reapers situation is very similar, they give one a vital task in their invasions and no one else, if it fails then they find other ways or just fufill their plans the long way.  Anyways, that's why you have bodygaurds/Geth to protect the him, I seriously doubt they had a back-up plan, Sarens likely hood of failure was unlikely, the only reason that Saren failed was because Vigil helped Shepard out, without it Nazara's plan would have succeeded, so Naz already knew they were going to succeed, the only thing it did not count on was Prothean interference.

(2) Now you see the issue with your idea, if you believe the Leader of all Reapers, the one that gave them the perfected version of brainwashing-indoctrination, the one that ordered the creation of the Relays and Citadell, and the one in command, can not simply mind control/converse with them through a form of telepathy or indoctrination then you just mocked the reapers and the Levi's psychic abilities, or better yet why not simply send a Hologram like Harby did to communicate with them during the Arrival DLC.

(3)  Anomaly's don't seem to be its interested, where do you get this from, Shepard is not exactly all that important to the Catalyst, if someone else had docked the Crucible pretty sure they would be communicating with the Kid, Synthesis is only possible when the kid and crucible deem it so(based on how many ems you have), and I guess being a Hybrid is also required, but saying that Shep is an anomaly because of his/her's existance and nothing else, yeah no, Shep was aided along the way by the Protheans, they made his/her successes possible, without them Shep would probably be dead already and the cycle at an end in ME1.

(4)Ok, they were not fully indoctrinated, they were close, could barely control themselves, and again you should not try mixing the intent of the previous games to the ending of anothe, needing to indoctrinate someone to get their complete compliance already seems like what the Catalyst was doing was wrong, Indoctrination damages the mind and brainwashes you in short, not similar to charm, tell that to DR.hensen Arrival, paragon or renegade= her blowing herself up regardless.

(5) Yes, but you never say what it takes to be labeled an anomaly or evidence to support it being needed for Synthesis to be possible, all that I know from the game is that before the ME3 ending it was not possible, Crucible changed it and acted like a battery, and it also needed an Organic-Synthetic Hybrid to choose it, nothing else, not to mention DLC-Javick seemed like the equivalent of Shep, just Prothean and had to live through failure.

(6)  So now it has favorites, Now whose giving AI's human qualities, would you rather take a one in six chance at a $1mill. or a sure thing at 500,000, possibility and the reactions of one is unknown, the other sample is predictable and under control, It should use logic rather than preference.

(7)  So all those talks about Saren fearing destruction, about needing to be useful to stay alive, and that the reapers were going to destroy us was him liying, and the him finally deciding to shoot himself was because Shepard convinced him that forcing everyone to advance was wrong, yeah their I have an issue, huskifying him would not Benefit Na. even stated by Saren on Virmire, it would happen eventually.  Looking back at it, just makes things more awkward, the only sure sign of it's success was Shep's ressurection, trying to say it was always one of their ideas is just off and you know it, they did not plan all of the ME trilogy, they changed things as they went along and kind of rushed when they ran out of time, this ending like the Rest are pretty much taken out of Dues Ex:human Revolution, except they actually eased into those options.

(8)  Building an aliiance with the Reapers, the Geth joined Naz, not Saren, Saren on contact would have been destroyed, anyways he was promised a "reprieve from his fate" I have not heard this to ever be a good thing or be a sign of willing trust.

(9) So TIM not even turning around is not sufficient evidence and TIM getting angry about his inability to do anything himself is not enough evidence, if the console was locked TIM would have atleast gone over to it or even turned around to face it, even anderson was facing it before TIM got their.

(10)  So it was not a fight for control against the Reapers, come on now your trying to rewrite their Characters and situations, TIM and Saren both had blood on their hands before they augmented themselves and knew it,  It's like your ignoring the Dialogue when they try to help/fight the reapers control, in a way it was the Catalyst fault, since it's all the Reapers collective, but yeah they killed themselves to help Shep and prevent the Reapers from further controlling them and screwing them up even worse, not just Shep using guilt, it's telling Saren/TIM "Your being controlled fight it, you are stronger than them".

(12)  Do you mean in the case of Governments, the Universe, life itself, action, or something else? all have exceptions, freedom is as much an illusion as your free will and choices in life, the law is as much a cage as it is a shield, if you want full freedom, chaos or nature will provide you with all the freedom you desire, though with the cage gone you also lose the shield.  But anyways back to this, Control and Synthesis, both seem like the solutions that work for the Short term, having the most positive effect in the now, while destroy seems to be the oppisite to me, having the worst effect now, but being a better long term solution.

[DoomsdayDevice]

MegaSovereign wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Seival wrote...

If someone caused a catastrophe with good intentions, it doesn't mean every good intention will cause the catostrophe.

That's not what I'm saying. It's when your end justifies your means that good intentions will do harm. Within the context of the Mass Effect universe, all who wanted to control, ended up being controlled. Who are you to think you won't?

David Archer wanted to control the Geth to avoid a bloody war, he ended up enslaved by the machine.
TIM wanted to control the Reapers, use their power for good, and ended up being controlled.
The Protheans fell because they were betrayed by an indoctrinated faction who though they could control the Reapers.

It is the promise of power that corrupts. That is the Reapers' weapon. That is why power hungry people will keep the collector base. Tens of thousands of people were processed there to create the human Reaper, but the end justifies the means. The promise of power, to defeat the Reapers by using their own technology against them.

But in doing so, we once again take the path the Reapers set out for us. We must defeat them on our own terms. We must reach a technology level on our owns terms. I think that is why the relays were destroyed in the original ending. It was a symbol for freeing ourselves from Reaper tech, the paths laid out before us by others. We need to achieve our own future, like Legion says.

Just look at what Legion says after destroying the Collector base:

Legion: an interesting choice, Shepard Commander. Your species was offered everything Geth aspire to. True unity. Understanding. Transcendence. You rejected it. You even refused the possibility of using the Old Machines' gifts to achieve it on your species' own terms. You are more like us than we thought.

True unity, understanding, transcendence... sound familiar? That is exactly what the Reapers are offering you in the synthesis ending, all on their terms. The path the Reapers lay out for us.

The fact that we build the Crucible without knowing what it does, is symbolical for the fact that organics literally aren't ready. By building the Crucible, we are again following the path others laid out for us. Technology beyond our comprehension. Using it will lead to our doom. That is why we literally need to blow it up.

Look at what Mordin says about species not being ready for advancement. According to Mordin, a state of 'perfection' would be detrimental.

Mordin: "Disrupts socio-technological balance. All scientific advancement due to intelligence overcoming, compensating, for limitations. Can't carry a load, so invent wheel. Can't catch food, so invent spear. Limitations. No limitations, no advancement. No advancement, culture stagnates. Works other way too. Advancement before culture is ready. Disastrous."


Still feel good about synthesis?

I liked your post up until you said we need to blow up the Crucible...How the hell are we going to beat the Reapers then?

Well, you  essentially make the crucible blow up by shooting at the tube, in destroy.