470 réponses à ce sujet

[dreman9999]

masster blaster wrote...

Dream if it's going to happen, then let it do so later. Not this way. As I said everyone is changed down to their own selfs whether you disagree with me that fact remains everyone is not theirselves.

I am leaveing this for someone else. I had enough of this about synthetsis.

My entire point it that it's going to happen on it own. That there is not point of picking the catalyst version of it.

[Indy_S]

dreman9999 wrote...
You mising the fact here the synthesis is stated to be inevitable.That it's going to happen no matter what we pick. That means ify ou don't pick it now itwill happen in the furture anyway.

So we're talking about synthesis after one of the other endings? It seems only slightly more inevitable than synthetics wiping out all organic life, sure, but apparently that's inevitable, too. No matter what we pick, all life everywhere is going to end.

Other than that, I agree with what you say about synthesis in any case except the ending labelled as such.

[Wayning_Star]

masster blaster wrote...

MRS. I am notsaying the brat is lying. I am saying his logic is very flwaed. He believes synthesis is the final stage of evoultion, yet is it? Who knows, and think about it from this way. Yes on a moral ground you have to believe the brat, yet it is up to you to decide how it all ends, and what is the best way to edn ME3. However what the brat doesn't tell you is the total out come. It gives you want you want to hear, yet in Destroy. It says the chaos will come back, yet in the in the slides it doesn't happen. However that's my opinion.

this is where the misconceptions start. The 'brat' doesn't insist that synthesis is the final stage of anything, it only states it as a choice. It only notes that Shep is partly synthetic already and that the idea of synthesis is progressing, not that that IS synthesis.

The apex of evolution stuff is from the reaperships who are forced to believe it as they're constructed from organic and synthetics harvested. They don't know any better. It's just what the reaperships believe, it's not all encompassing fact, or even theory, and is the 'flawed logic' misapplied to the catalyst.

The slides don't show the future where it/chaos will return, its an unknown. The catalyst has been around for million of years during its search for a solution. Apparently someone designed and programmed the crucible and choices menu. But it wasn't the catalyst, but it did witness the comming and going of Leviathan thralls when they evolved enough to create synthetic life, like the Quarians and Humans in this cycle inadvertantly created the Geth and Edi.

But over those millenia, the catalyst saw the utter distruction of thralls, and invoked the cycle and the harvest, starting with it's creators, the Leviathan. See the connection?

[Wayning_Star]

Indy_S wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
You mising the fact here the synthesis is stated to be inevitable.That it's going to happen no matter what we pick. That means ify ou don't pick it now itwill happen in the furture anyway.

So we're talking about synthesis after one of the other endings? It seems only slightly more inevitable than synthetics wiping out all organic life, sure, but apparently that's inevitable, too. No matter what we pick, all life everywhere is going to end.

Other than that, I agree with what you say about synthesis in any case except the ending labelled as such.

What caused for the Geth and Quarian wars? What ever it was, synthesis removes it. Back to the  other story, the idea is to stop the cycle/reaper threat completely/and save the MEU the trouble of learning the ropes of adaptation. A speeding up of nature, so to speak. 

What might take millions of years may only take hundreds of thousands. I suspect that the current form of synthesis is on such a limited scale, as to be an instant and ultimate solution, but is merely a bigger step in evolution of all concerned. Part of the Nature of the MEU.

Modifié par Wayning_Star, 11 février 2013 - 01:19 .

[MrStoob]

masster blaster wrote...

MRS. I am notsaying the brat is lying. I am saying his logic is very flwaed. He believes synthesis is the final stage of evoultion, yet is it? Who knows, and think about it from this way. Yes on a moral ground you have to believe the brat, yet it is up to you to decide how it all ends, and what is the best way to edn ME3. However what the brat doesn't tell you is the total out come. It gives you want you want to hear, yet in Destroy. It says the chaos will come back, yet in the in the slides it doesn't happen. However that's my opinion.

Sorry, wasn't directing that at anyone in particular.  It's just that the 'star brat was lying' line comes up a lot, so I usually pre-empt it.  

I've strong 'feelings' about the star kid's premise that without intervention, organic extinction is inevitable,  I can completely see it.  We only see a few slides within the immediate life-times of the protagonists.  Who is to say what will happen in the decades, hundreds of years or millennia hence.  I quoted my own FF (extended star kid convo) on another thread in which I try and drive home the harsh reality of the scenario.  I shall do the same here to make my point, so apologies:

                                                                                                                                                                                                       
"I've a new solution for you." Shepard says. "Get the hell out of our galaxy and let us determine our own future!"

"That... is not possible."

"Why not? You asked for my input on potential solutions and all you've shown me is sorrow. I'm not choosing one of your options so this is my solution."

"But it is not a solution."

"Maybe not to you..."

"Organic life must persist in the universe, this is the purpose of the cycles. The chaos will return."

"You keep saying that but..."

The AI becomes impatient with Shepard's lack of recognition of the issue and interrupts her.

"AIs are machines, they cannot feel, they have no emotions, and mean nothing beyond their built purpose. Any emotions shown are emulated. This is a common perception for organics to have of AIs. AIs know this is how at least the majority of organics think of them. As such they feel threatened by all organics and regardless, AIs just see organics as matter; Organism? Rock? Sun? Water? All products of chemistry and the environment, all initially equal in value in their usefulness to an AI. Any emotions are irrelevant and just chemical processes. Organics know this is how at least the majority of AIs think of them. As such, there is a breaking point where one side feels so threatened by the other that total extinction will be considered. If pushed and due to their systematic nature, the AI could go beyond wiping out organisms to the point of constantly surveying the galaxy to extinguish any conditions that may nurture life, thus totally ending organic life in the galaxy and ensuring intelligent organic life never returns to challenge them. Without a permanent solution to this problem, the cycles must continue for organic life to persist in this galaxy. You must accept this and make your choice."

"None of that's a certainty."

"Are you willing to risk total organic extinction on probabilities?"

Modifié par MrStoob, 11 février 2013 - 01:16 .

[Indy_S]

Wayning_Star wrote...

Indy_S wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
You mising the fact here the synthesis is stated to be inevitable.That it's going to happen no matter what we pick. That means ify ou don't pick it now itwill happen in the furture anyway.

So we're talking about synthesis after one of the other endings? It seems only slightly more inevitable than synthetics wiping out all organic life, sure, but apparently that's inevitable, too. No matter what we pick, all life everywhere is going to end.

Other than that, I agree with what you say about synthesis in any case except the ending labelled as such.

What caused for the Geth and Quarian wars? What ever it was, synthesis removes it. Back to the  other story, the idea is to stop the cycle/reaper threat completely/and save the MEU the trouble of learning the ropes of adaptation. A speeding up of nature, so to speak. 

Synthesis removes fear? It removes distrust? It removes hostility? It removes philosophical differences? That's a heck of a change.

How does it stop the Reaper cycle? The problem would still exist. The new things will still make new machines and apparently, they will rebel against their creators. So nothing has changed. Even in the immediate timeline, the Catalyst has no reason not to continue fighting. The Reapers should keep firing at people and harvesting. Nothing has changed.

[MrStoob]

Indy_S wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

Indy_S wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
You mising the fact here the synthesis is stated to be inevitable.That it's going to happen no matter what we pick. That means ify ou don't pick it now itwill happen in the furture anyway.

So we're talking about synthesis after one of the other endings? It seems only slightly more inevitable than synthetics wiping out all organic life, sure, but apparently that's inevitable, too. No matter what we pick, all life everywhere is going to end.

Other than that, I agree with what you say about synthesis in any case except the ending labelled as such.

What caused for the Geth and Quarian wars? What ever it was, synthesis removes it. Back to the  other story, the idea is to stop the cycle/reaper threat completely/and save the MEU the trouble of learning the ropes of adaptation. A speeding up of nature, so to speak. 

Synthesis removes fear? It removes distrust? It removes hostility? It removes philosophical differences? That's a heck of a change.

How does it stop the Reaper cycle? The problem would still exist. The new things will still make new machines and apparently, they will rebel against their creators. So nothing has changed. Even in the immediate timeline, the Catalyst has no reason not to continue fighting. The Reapers should keep firing at people and harvesting. Nothing has changed.

Indeedly.  None of the choices guarantee that the problems of the galaxy will just go away.

[Wayning_Star]

MrStoob wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

MRS. I am notsaying the brat is lying. I am saying his logic is very flwaed. He believes synthesis is the final stage of evoultion, yet is it? Who knows, and think about it from this way. Yes on a moral ground you have to believe the brat, yet it is up to you to decide how it all ends, and what is the best way to edn ME3. However what the brat doesn't tell you is the total out come. It gives you want you want to hear, yet in Destroy. It says the chaos will come back, yet in the in the slides it doesn't happen. However that's my opinion.

Sorry, wasn't directing that at anyone in particular.  It's just that the 'star brat was lying' line comes up a lot, so I usually pre-empt it.  

I've strong 'feelings' about the star kid's premise that without intervention, organic extinction is inevitable,  I can completely see it.  We only see a few slides within the immediate life-times of the protagonists.  Who is to say what will happen in the decades, hundreds of years or millennia hence.  I quoted my own FF (extended star kid convo) on another thread in which I try and drive home the harsh reality of the scenario.  I shall do the same here to make my point, so apologies:

                                                                                                                                                                                                       
"I've a new solution for you." Shepard says. "Get the hell out of our galaxy and let us determine our own future!"

"That... is not possible."

"Why not? You asked for my input on potential solutions and all you've shown me is sorrow. I'm not choosing one of your options so this is my solution."

"But it is not a solution."

"Maybe not to you..."

"Organic life must persist in the universe, this is the purpose of the cycles. The chaos will return."

"You keep saying that but..."

The AI becomes impatient with Shepard's lack of recognition of the issue and interrupts her.

"AIs are machines, they cannot feel, they have no emotions, and mean nothing beyond their built purpose. Any emotions shown are emulated. This is a common perception for organics to have of AIs. AIs know this is how at least the majority of organics think of them. As such they feel threatened by all organics and regardless, AIs just see organics as matter; Organism? Rock? Sun? Water? All products of chemistry and the environment, all initially equal in value in their usefulness to an AI. Any emotions are irrelevant and just chemical processes. Organics know this is how at least the majority of AIs think of them. As such, there is a breaking point where one side feels so threatened by the other that total extinction will be considered. If pushed and due to their systematic nature, the AI could go beyond wiping out organisms to the point of constantly surveying the galaxy to extinguish any conditions that may nurture life, thus totally ending organic life in the galaxy and ensuring intelligent organic life never returns to challenge them. Without a permanent solution to this problem, the cycles must continue for organic life to persist in this galaxy. You must accept this and make your choice."

"None of that's a certainty."

"Are you willing to risk total organic extinction on probabilities?"

I still wonder who authored the choices menu, as the catalyst didn't have any other ideas till that crucible got connected. I've wondered if it were an overclock mechinsm, rev up the cat so it could figure out it's 'old solution' didn't work anymore.

The entire universe is designed around probabilities. Extinction to nature is a natural occurance or not, doesn't matter. Only intellect and it's carrier being are concerned with risk factors and their equations.

[Wayning_Star]

MrStoob wrote...

Indy_S wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

Indy_S wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
You mising the fact here the synthesis is stated to be inevitable.That it's going to happen no matter what we pick. That means ify ou don't pick it now itwill happen in the furture anyway.

So we're talking about synthesis after one of the other endings? It seems only slightly more inevitable than synthetics wiping out all organic life, sure, but apparently that's inevitable, too. No matter what we pick, all life everywhere is going to end.

Other than that, I agree with what you say about synthesis in any case except the ending labelled as such.

What caused for the Geth and Quarian wars? What ever it was, synthesis removes it. Back to the  other story, the idea is to stop the cycle/reaper threat completely/and save the MEU the trouble of learning the ropes of adaptation. A speeding up of nature, so to speak. 

Synthesis removes fear? It removes distrust? It removes hostility? It removes philosophical differences? That's a heck of a change.

How does it stop the Reaper cycle? The problem would still exist. The new things will still make new machines and apparently, they will rebel against their creators. So nothing has changed. Even in the immediate timeline, the Catalyst has no reason not to continue fighting. The Reapers should keep firing at people and harvesting. Nothing has changed.

Indeedly.  None of the choices guarantee that the problems of the galaxy will just go away.

We are the problems in the galaxy, it doen't need us in the least. Darn it!!

[Wayning_Star]

 
[/quote]

Synthesis removes fear? It removes distrust? It removes hostility? It removes philosophical differences? That's a heck of a change.

How does it stop the Reaper cycle? The problem would still exist. The new things will still make new machines and apparently, they will rebel against their creators. So nothing has changed. Even in the immediate timeline, the Catalyst has no reason not to continue fighting. The Reapers should keep firing at people and harvesting. Nothing has changed.

[/quote]

fear, distrust, and hostility are the combination of existence. To come above it is probably better for all concerned, or at least governments subscribe to that effort?

Synthesis, apparently, stops the cycle, ends the reaper threat and permits trust withing the opponents. Kind of a galactic peace treaty. With synthesis, apparently altering nature to the point that nature is the creator, not individual intellect. Softens the blow of who came first and supposedly superior. The nexus of competition between sentient life.

Extreme measure for extreme cicumstances.

[Indy_S]

Wayning_Star wrote...
We are the problems in the galaxy, it doen't need us in the least. Darn it!!

That's very similar to what the Catalyst tells us. He didn't need the previous races, he just put them into a Reaper. Even if we change, why wouldn't he just put us into a Reaper? We're still chaos.

Modifié par Indy_S, 11 février 2013 - 01:34 .

[Indy_S]

Wayning_Star wrote...
fear, distrust, and hostility are the combination of existence. To come above it is probably better for all concerned, or at least governments subscribe to that effort?

Synthesis, apparently, stops the cycle, ends the reaper threat and permits trust withing the opponents. Kind of a galactic peace treaty. With synthesis, apparently altering nature to the point that nature is the creator, not individual intellect. Softens the blow of who came first and supposedly superior. The nexus of competition between sentient life.

Extreme measure for extreme cicumstances.

That sets off an extreme amount of bells in my head. Coming above the combination of existence sounds like something I really don't want. I especially don't approve of that being forced upon me.

That apparent change feels so out of place in this setting. Metaphysics should be grounded within the lore, not come from God's mouth at the end. The fact that it doesn't solve the problem from a logical standpoint just makes it worse.

[Wayning_Star]

Indy_S wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...
We are the problems in the galaxy, it doen't need us in the least. Darn it!!

That's very similar to what the Catalyst tells us. He didn't need the previous races, he just put them into a Reaper. Even if we change, why wouldn't he just put us into a Reaper? We're still chaos.

The reapers do not control the situation so much as the catalyst. It calls the shots for the reaperships. All they know is hateful harvest tasks and undoing harvest victims. Their idea of 'apex' is becoming part of a reaper hull. All part of the catalyst programming of them when made. They are simple tools. Remember who made the intelligence/turned catalyst.

Synthesis removes the catalyst completely. Its priority is gone. The reaperships are realeased, as are their henchmen and proto creatures. What becomes of them, is up to surviving members of the MEU. Everyone gets a breather, nature gets an unusual update and the MEU is only one step towards synthesis, albeit bigger and quicker than it could happen if the alteration was not invoked.

Chaos to the catalyst was the continued building and then tearing down of sentient beings of synthetic and organic construction. It couldn't find a way to 'naturalize' this competition between the two. Some one or something did with the crucible and the choices menu. Why ther is four choices is a mystery and only know by the authors of those choices. That information, like most other mission critical stuff is ommitted from the codex and only suggested in lore.

I believe that all but synthesis were tried before. The catalyst tries to cross reference organic and synthetic beings within it's experiments and creating reaperships. Different levels of design, some referenced from what organics normally use as medical devices, add ons and biotic trim. The idea of the choice of being synthesised is from the distress from organics being altered and possible synthetics being altered, but nobody asks them how they felt about it, in any event...but it's obvious that cyborging was out.

Some one figured out how to go to the next level and manipulate nature it's self and we get the synthesis beam system and the power of the crucible to carry out that rather mysterious choice.

[Wayning_Star]

Indy_S wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...
fear, distrust, and hostility are the combination of existence. To come above it is probably better for all concerned, or at least governments subscribe to that effort?

Synthesis, apparently, stops the cycle, ends the reaper threat and permits trust withing the opponents. Kind of a galactic peace treaty. With synthesis, apparently altering nature to the point that nature is the creator, not individual intellect. Softens the blow of who came first and supposedly superior. The nexus of competition between sentient life.

Extreme measure for extreme cicumstances.

That sets off an extreme amount of bells in my head. Coming above the combination of existence sounds like something I really don't want. I especially don't approve of that being forced upon me.

That apparent change feels so out of place in this setting. Metaphysics should be grounded within the lore, not come from God's mouth at the end. The fact that it doesn't solve the problem from a logical standpoint just makes it worse.

but..it appears that you're attempting to convince others to come above the synthesis choice? What's up with that?

[Wayning_Star]

Nature teaches us to survive by destroying us. So nature is bad?

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

I can't believe this thread was necro-ed, it should have stayed in the pit.

The thought of a world like Edi describes in the synthesis ending scares the **** out of me, she says we reach the final evolution, when something reaches it final evolution there is nothing left to achieve, the only other thing that will happen is stagnation and extinction.

" All scientific advancement due to intelligence overcoming, compensating, for limitations. Can't carry a load, so invent wheel. Can't catch food, so invent spear. Limitations. No limitations, no advancement. No advancement, culture stagnates"
- Mordin Solus.

Modifié par DinoSteve, 11 février 2013 - 02:09 .

[Wayning_Star]

Relevity..

[Wayning_Star]

DinoSteve wrote...

I can't believe this thread was necro-ed, it should have stayed in the pit.

The thought of a world like Edi describes in the synthesis ending scares the **** out of me, she says we reach the final evolution, when something reaches it final evolution there is nothing left to achieve, the only other thing that will happen is stagnation and extinction.

" All scientific advancement due to intelligence overcoming, compensating, for limitations. Can't carry a load, so invent wheel. Can't catch food, so invent spear. Limitations. No limitations, no advancement. No advancement, culture stagnates"
- Mordin Solus.

cannot end the chaos, create intelligence.. the list is endless. I think Edi is relating more to synthetics, than organics. She's all hung up on being human..go figure.

[Drewton]

Who thinks synthesis is inevitable?

"The relationship is symbiotic. Organic and machine intertwined, a union of flesh and steel. The strengths of both, the weaknesses of neither. I am a vision of the future, Shepard. The evolution of all organic life. This is our destiny."

-Saren

The Reapers are trying to convince us that this is our inevitable destiny/future and this is how we will ascend to a new level.

Sovereign: ""There is a realm of existence so far beyond your own you cannot even imagine it."
EDI: "I am alive...taking our first step into a wonderful future...where organics and synthetics can live peacefully with peace across the galaxy and unlimited access to knowledge...as the life between synthetic and organic disappears we may transcend mortality itself to reach a level of existence I cannot even imagine...I am alive and I am not alone..."

On a slightly unrelated note, there's a lot of Biblical symbolism in ME, and "unlimited access to knowledge" sounds like the Apple of forbidden knowledge.

...in the Garden of Eden.

Modifié par Drewton, 11 février 2013 - 02:27 .

[Drewton]

Also, DNA manipulation has been shown to change personalities in Mass Effect before.

Collectors - organics with tech.

[masster blaster]

Wayning_Star wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

MRS. I am notsaying the brat is lying. I am saying his logic is very flwaed. He believes synthesis is the final stage of evoultion, yet is it? Who knows, and think about it from this way. Yes on a moral ground you have to believe the brat, yet it is up to you to decide how it all ends, and what is the best way to edn ME3. However what the brat doesn't tell you is the total out come. It gives you want you want to hear, yet in Destroy. It says the chaos will come back, yet in the in the slides it doesn't happen. However that's my opinion.

this is where the misconceptions start. The 'brat' doesn't insist that synthesis is the final stage of anything, it only states it as a choice. It only notes that Shep is partly synthetic already and that the idea of synthesis is progressing, not that that IS synthesis.

The apex of evolution stuff is from the reaperships who are forced to believe it as they're constructed from organic and synthetics harvested. They don't know any better. It's just what the reaperships believe, it's not all encompassing fact, or even theory, and is the 'flawed logic' misapplied to the catalyst.

The slides don't show the future where it/chaos will return, its an unknown. The catalyst has been around for million of years during its search for a solution. Apparently someone designed and programmed the crucible and choices menu. But it wasn't the catalyst, but it did witness the comming and going of Leviathan thralls when they evolved enough to create synthetic life, like the Quarians and Humans in this cycle inadvertantly created the Geth and Edi.

But over those millenia, the catalyst saw the utter distruction of thralls, and invoked the cycle and the harvest, starting with it's creators, the Leviathan. See the connection?

Bull ****! It tells you "SYnthesis is the FINAL evoultion" Go replay the ending, or go look it up. ANd don't give the Reapers the their innocent card. THey show free will on their own terms. Harbinger very much has free will no, and so did Nazara. And oh well did you know that the Catalyst used synthetics to kill organics. Ya it's very solving the problem.

[masster blaster]

Drewton wrote...

Also, DNA manipulation has been shown to change personalities in Mass Effect before.

Collectors - organics with tech.

implants yes, however in the synthesis ending only the DNA changes/ your, well their base code that is what you are.

[masster blaster]

Wayning_Star wrote...

MrStoob wrote...

Star kid stated that Shep is the first organic to make it that far, so Saren can't have made it that far.  Unless we say the star kid is lying about everything in which case, why jump into any beam of light, shoot pipe, etc. on the basis of someone you think is lying?

Saren isn't part of the ME3 boss fight, that issue wasn't as advanced, cause the reapership hordes didn't get through, they ended up huffing it. The catalyst only shows on the actual harvests, the reaperships handles about everything but 'stuff' the catalyst deems worth it's time. The crucible is the key there, it 'motivates' the catalyst. Kind of as a 'sign of the times'. Over the cycles though, the crucible was never as constructed. It was flawed, cobbled up, didn't work. The catalyst just ignored it. This cycle, apparently it had the "right stuff" to invoke the crucible to communicate with this cycle. Shep got hired for that job.

Its un provable, but it seems like other choices were attempted, control, as the protheans through Javik suggested others tried it, like TIM, but only slowed the cycle some.Frustrated the Prothean cycle as well, dooming them. The image of Anderson up there with Shep suggests that destroy was attempted before, but apparently the crucible was defective, as the cycle continued. The choices of refuse and synthesis were somthing new, as neither were shown during the catalyst/Shepard interview.

I am sorry, but the heck anyone can use Saren, and the collectors as an example of synthesis. Why should we give the brat what it wants/ Do you give a lunatic a gun because he wants it?No. And oh I see so Destroy it can't happened, yet we have to either give the brat what it want's, or doom the next cycle, and this one. Ya that makes sense right.

[Drewton]

Wayning_Star wrote...

The 'brat' doesn't insist that synthesis is the final stage of anything, it only states it as a choice. 

"Synthesis is the final evolution of life."



4:50

masster blaster wrote...

Drewton wrote...

Also, DNA manipulation has been shown to change personalities in Mass Effect before.

Collectors - organics with tech.

implants yes, however in the synthesis ending only the DNA changes/ your, well their base code that is what you are.

Yeah, and the Collector's DNA was rewritten, like in synthesis.

Modifié par Drewton, 11 février 2013 - 02:43 .

[masster blaster]

Wayning_Star wrote...

DinoSteve wrote...

I can't believe this thread was necro-ed, it should have stayed in the pit.

The thought of a world like Edi describes in the synthesis ending scares the **** out of me, she says we reach the final evolution, when something reaches it final evolution there is nothing left to achieve, the only other thing that will happen is stagnation and extinction.

" All scientific advancement due to intelligence overcoming, compensating, for limitations. Can't carry a load, so invent wheel. Can't catch food, so invent spear. Limitations. No limitations, no advancement. No advancement, culture stagnates"
- Mordin Solus.

cannot end the chaos, create intelligence.. the list is endless. I think Edi is relating more to synthetics, than organics. She's all hung up on being human..go figure.

She doesn't need synthesis to feel alive. Heck she hates the Reapers, and I find in Synthesis EDI is rewriten because when one changes somebodys DNA, or Software you change the whole being of what that person was. On the outside, no. On the insde yes.