470 réponses à ce sujet

[masster blaster]

Wayning_Star wrote...

Indy_S wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
You mising the fact here the synthesis is stated to be inevitable.That it's going to happen no matter what we pick. That means ify ou don't pick it now itwill happen in the furture anyway.

So we're talking about synthesis after one of the other endings? It seems only slightly more inevitable than synthetics wiping out all organic life, sure, but apparently that's inevitable, too. No matter what we pick, all life everywhere is going to end.

Other than that, I agree with what you say about synthesis in any case except the ending labelled as such.

What caused for the Geth and Quarian wars? What ever it was, synthesis removes it. Back to the  other story, the idea is to stop the cycle/reaper threat completely/and save the MEU the trouble of learning the ropes of adaptation. A speeding up of nature, so to speak. 

What might take millions of years may only take hundreds of thousands. I suspect that the current form of synthesis is on such a limited scale, as to be an instant and ultimate solution, but is merely a bigger step in evolution of all concerned. Part of the Nature of the MEU.

Oh and who supported the Geth, and Quaraian war, ah yes the Reapers/ the Brat. Oh and who said it wanted to protect organics from synthetics, only to use synthetics to kill organics. Oh that's right the Catalyst. Oh and if you believe synthesis solves all the problems of Organics vs synthetics your wrong. They may not be called synthetics or Organics, but war can still happen no, or are you saying that synthesis ending will have no wars?

[masster blaster]

dreman9999 wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

Dream if it's going to happen, then let it do so later. Not this way. As I said everyone is changed down to their own selfs whether you disagree with me that fact remains everyone is not theirselves.

I am leaveing this for someone else. I had enough of this about synthetsis.

My entire point it that it's going to happen on it own. That there is not point of picking the catalyst version of it.

facepalm. You said synthesis can end wars/ conflict, and it's the only way. You used what the catalyst tells you to support your claims, and say that in this synthesis other version that is not in the game what you say happens. yet I am talking about what in game synthesis does.



Javik: In my cycle, a race called the Zha used machines, the Zha'til, as
synthetic symbiotes. The Reapers subjugated the Zha'til as they have
the geth. Their mechanical swarms blotted out the sky. They were brutal,
merciless.
Tali: Keelah. What did you do?
Javik: We sent their star into supernova. I believe the Zha would have thanked us.
Shepard: I destroyed a system to take out the Alpha Relay. It wasn't an easy decision.

Shepard: You mentioned before your people had problems with AI.
Javik: The Zha'til. They were as the Geth to this cycle.
Shepard: What happened?
Javik:
Their creators lived on a dying world. It was beyond their ability to
save. So they resorted to implants to enhance their intelligence.
Shepard: I think I know where this is going.
Javik:
The AI seized the physical body. It could alter the genetic material at
the deepest level. In time, the offspring were molded into a slave
race. Few organic traces were left. They were monsters.

Modifié par masster blaster, 11 février 2013 - 03:03 .

[masster blaster]

[quote]Wayning_Star wrote...

 
[/quote]

Synthesis removes fear? It removes distrust? It removes hostility? It removes philosophical differences? That's a heck of a change.

How does it stop the Reaper cycle? The problem would still exist. The new things will still make new machines and apparently, they will rebel against their creators. So nothing has changed. Even in the immediate timeline, the Catalyst has no reason not to continue fighting. The Reapers should keep firing at people and harvesting. Nothing has changed.

[/quote]

fear, distrust, and hostility are the combination of existence. To come above it is probably better for all concerned, or at least governments subscribe to that effort?

Synthesis, apparently, stops the cycle, ends the reaper threat and permits trust withing the opponents. Kind of a galactic peace treaty. With synthesis, apparently altering nature to the point that nature is the creator, not individual intellect. Softens the blow of who came first and supposedly superior. The nexus of competition between sentient life.

Extreme measure for extreme cicumstances.[/quote]

And at what cost. Did you ever think how the whole galaxy would react in
synthesis. chaos most likely, yet everyone befriends the reapers. How
can you say synthesis end conflict, when everyone is not themselves/ is
gone. And no there is always another way. I would not have everyone rewritten like you can do the geth heretics. I would pick control, and
Destroy before picking synthesis. For at least in Control Shepard
doesn't want synthesis right?

Modifié par masster blaster, 11 février 2013 - 03:10 .

[masster blaster]

Indy_S wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

Indy_S wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
You mising the fact here the synthesis is stated to be inevitable.That it's going to happen no matter what we pick. That means ify ou don't pick it now itwill happen in the furture anyway.

So we're talking about synthesis after one of the other endings? It seems only slightly more inevitable than synthetics wiping out all organic life, sure, but apparently that's inevitable, too. No matter what we pick, all life everywhere is going to end.

Other than that, I agree with what you say about synthesis in any case except the ending labelled as such.

What caused for the Geth and Quarian wars? What ever it was, synthesis removes it. Back to the  other story, the idea is to stop the cycle/reaper threat completely/and save the MEU the trouble of learning the ropes of adaptation. A speeding up of nature, so to speak. 

Synthesis removes fear? It removes distrust? It removes hostility? It removes philosophical differences? That's a heck of a change.

How does it stop the Reaper cycle? The problem would still exist. The new things will still make new machines and apparently, they will rebel against their creators. So nothing has changed. Even in the immediate timeline, the Catalyst has no reason not to continue fighting. The Reapers should keep firing at people and harvesting. Nothing has changed.

Yes. There is no reason to stop the war, and if the Reapers stop fighting, then we kill them while they are down. I don't mind killing them because hey would you like to live in one body with millions of minds that are stuck in one Reaper body? IU wouldn't I would rather die, however that is not the case. Just because one wave hits everyone the fighting should not stop. Reapers might, but the fight should keep on going.

[masster blaster]

Indy_S wrote...

Just out of curiousity, why would you pick this synthesis if it doesn't stop the conflict the Catalyst brings up? I don't believe it would, so I don't pick it. But if it did stop the conflict, how is that not altering somebody's mind?

That's the thing it does. If you pay attention to what everyone says about the Reapers, and see how the galaxy hates them for the horrific crap they have done, then no there should be fighting. Javik is a prime example of altering the mind. He is the one person that would die if the Reapers lived, and befriends the Reapers. If Not Javik, then Hackett. He should be forming a small task force to fight the Reapers, yet no he doesn't.


Thane: There is no moral difference
between the two. If you change who the Heretics are, you have "killed"
them...killed their perspective.

Modifié par masster blaster, 11 février 2013 - 03:06 .

[masster blaster]

Drewton wrote...

Also, DNA manipulation has been shown to change personalities in Mass Effect before.

Collectors - organics with tech.

Mordin: Discovery. Based on Prothean-Collector connection, can examine
technology, chart Reaper species-modification. Fall of Protheans. Early
stages similar to indoctrination. Can guess captured Protheans lost
intelligence over several cloned generations. Cybernetic augmentation
widespread afterwards. As Protheans failed, Reapers added tech to
compensate. Mental capacity almost gone, replaced by overworked sensory
input, transfers. Transmitting data to masters. No glands, replaced by
tech. No digestive system, replaced by tech. No soul. Replaced by tech.
Whatever they were, gone forever. Understand now? No art, no culture,
closer to husks than slaves, tools for Reapers. Protheans dead,
Collectors just final insult. Must be destroyed.

Mordin:
Disrupts socio-technological balance. All scientific advancement due to
intellegence overcoming, compensating, for limitations. Can't carry a
load, so invent wheel. Can't catch food, so invent spear. Limitations.
No limitations, no advancement. No advancement, culture stagnates. Works
other way too. Advancement before culture is ready. Disastrous.

[Drewton]

Great quotes. There are a ton of things in all three games that warn clearly against synthesis.

Modifié par Drewton, 11 février 2013 - 03:08 .

[3DandBeyond]

masster blaster wrote...

Drewton wrote...

Also, DNA manipulation has been shown to change personalities in Mass Effect before.

Collectors - organics with tech.

Mordin: Discovery. Based on Prothean-Collector connection, can examine
technology, chart Reaper species-modification. Fall of Protheans. Early
stages similar to indoctrination. Can guess captured Protheans lost
intelligence over several cloned generations. Cybernetic augmentation
widespread afterwards. As Protheans failed, Reapers added tech to
compensate. Mental capacity almost gone, replaced by overworked sensory
input, transfers. Transmitting data to masters. No glands, replaced by
tech. No digestive system, replaced by tech. No soul. Replaced by tech.
Whatever they were, gone forever. Understand now? No art, no culture,
closer to husks than slaves, tools for Reapers. Protheans dead,
Collectors just final insult. Must be destroyed.

Mordin:
Disrupts socio-technological balance. All scientific advancement due to
intellegence overcoming, compensating, for limitations. Can't carry a
load, so invent wheel. Can't catch food, so invent spear. Limitations.
No limitations, no advancement. No advancement, culture stagnates. Works
other way too. Advancement before culture is ready. Disastrous.

Exactly.  The game had already used real logic in these quotes to say exactly what is wrong with Synthesis.  And it is also similar to the story of the synthetics that Javik talks about and how the tech inside of people took over.  And in Synthesis synthetics are advanced before they are ready, given understanding rather than growing into it and deciding they even want it.  It's also kind of like the genophage-inserting something inside people without their knowledge or consent to do something (we don't know exactly what-at least with the genophage they knew what it would do).  And it's like the story of the Krogan and the Rachni.  Both were advanced beyond their cultural readiness.  That worked out really well, right?


There are so many things in all the games that rule out any rational person choosing synthesis, I can't see how it could even be a choice at the end.  Well, I can't see the ending coming down to a choice, anyway.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 11 février 2013 - 04:25 .

[3DandBeyond]

Indy_S wrote...

Synthesis removes fear? It removes distrust? It removes hostility? It removes philosophical differences? That's a heck of a change.

How does it stop the Reaper cycle? The problem would still exist. The new things will still make new machines and apparently, they will rebel against their creators. So nothing has changed. Even in the immediate timeline, the Catalyst has no reason not to continue fighting. The Reapers should keep firing at people and harvesting. Nothing has changed.

The problem is here that even people that like Synthesis can't agree on what it means.  One person says it allows full autonomy and individuality to continue on and doesn't change personalities.  Ok, and so conflict just magically goes away?  The only thing that is gone, and maybe temporarily, is the moniker "organic" because some new thing will be created.  That's the definition of synthesis.  Combine 2 or more things to create a new thing.  But organics could be recreated.  Or these new hybrids might still fight with each other or with synthetics.  Or better yet, some of them may find their bodies (or plant stems) rejecting the tech.  And yes, created things should still rebel against their creators-if they will always do that, then they still will do it.

Other people say that the tech will control things and make them better.  Great.  No thanks.  I'm not perfect, but people aren't meant to be.  The perfection exists in our differences.  We are each unique.  If tech controls things (and the tech in everyone and everything is all the same), it will work to make all people alike and without imperfections as it (the tech or whoever created it) sees it.

The kid sees things as inevitable.  So, none of the choices solves what he sees as the problem because the problem is inevitable.  It cannot be solved, whether by him or by anyone else, because it's inevitable.  He's a prophet because what he sees as inevitable has never happened; he sees synthetics as inevitably destroying all organics.  Amazing.

Then, the other issue is that he also says his solution (the reapers) will no longer work.  If it won't work anymore then it is not a solution and he would stop using it immediately.  He's a computer and once he notices that 3 is not the solution to 1+1, he would no longer keep trying to force it to be. 

People have often told me I don't understand that he's a computer or a shackled AI and I need to understand how computers work.  I think I do know this makes no sense.  Something that is not a solution would no longer be used  And something that is inevitable can never be solved, or it's not inevitable.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 11 février 2013 - 04:41 .

[mvaning]

Javik: "Why have you not thrown the "Catalyst" machine out the airlock, Bioware? There is still time."

Modifié par mvaning, 11 février 2013 - 04:49 .

[Argolas]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Indy_S wrote...

Synthesis removes fear? It removes distrust? It removes hostility? It removes philosophical differences? That's a heck of a change.

How does it stop the Reaper cycle? The problem would still exist. The new things will still make new machines and apparently, they will rebel against their creators. So nothing has changed. Even in the immediate timeline, the Catalyst has no reason not to continue fighting. The Reapers should keep firing at people and harvesting. Nothing has changed.

The problem is here that even people that like Synthesis can't agree on what it means.  One person says it allows full autonomy and individuality to continue on and doesn't change personalities.  Ok, and so conflict just magically goes away?  The only thing that is gone, and maybe temporarily, is the moniker "organic" because some new thing will be created.  That's the definition of synthesis.  Combine 2 or more things to create a new thing.  But organics could be recreated.  Or these new hybrids might still fight with each other or with synthetics.  Or better yet, some of them may find their bodies (or plant stems) rejecting the tech.  And yes, created things should still rebel against their creators-if they will always do that, then they still will do it.

Other people say that the tech will control things and make them better.  Great.  No thanks.  I'm not perfect, but people aren't meant to be.  The perfection exists in our differences.  We are each unique.  If tech controls things (and the tech in everyone and everything is all the same), it will work to make all people alike and without imperfections as it (the tech or whoever created it) sees it.

The kid sees things as inevitable.  So, none of the choices solves what he sees as the problem because the problem is inevitable.  It cannot be solved, whether by him or by anyone else, because it's inevitable.  He's a prophet because what he sees as inevitable has never happened; he sees synthetics as inevitably destroying all organics.  Amazing.

Then, the other issue is that he also says his solution (the reapers) will no longer work.  If it won't work anymore then it is not a solution and he would stop using it immediately.  He's a computer and once he notices that 3 is not the solution to 1+1, he would no longer keep trying to force it to be. 

People have often told me I don't understand that he's a computer or a shackled AI and I need to understand how computers work.  I think I do know this makes no sense.  Something that is not a solution would no longer be used  And something that is inevitable can never be solved, or it's not inevitable.

I agree completely with this post. I also wonder whatever Synthesis, if it only changes DNA and not our free will (which is the interpretation most in favour of it IMO) actually solves. Being half synthetic won't stop the galaxy from creating more synthetics to work for them just because they can, humans have enslaved their kind in the past as well, so do the Batarians in the MEU and probably lots of other lords of the Terminus Systems. The most common answer I hear to this is that synthetics can no longer surpass us then, but I still wonder about that. They don't need to become smarter than us in order to kill us all, they just have to mass reproduce and carry more guns than we do. Another thing that bugs me is about synthesis being the "final" evolution of life, this means we can no longer evolve after that. The fate of every species incapable of evolving in history was sealed, no matter how powerful it was.

[MrStoob]

Indy_S wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...
We are the problems in the galaxy, it doen't need us in the least. Darn it!!

That's very similar to what the Catalyst tells us. He didn't need the previous races, he just put them into a Reaper. Even if we change, why wouldn't he just put us into a Reaper? We're still chaos.

The Reapers/Catalyst also fail to see that they are part of the problem as well.

[MrStoob]

3DandBeyond wrote...

The kid sees things as inevitable.  So, none of the choices solves what he sees as the problem because the problem is inevitable.  It cannot be solved, whether by him or by anyone else, because it's inevitable.  He's a prophet because what he sees as inevitable has never happened; he sees synthetics as inevitably destroying all organics.  Amazing.

It could be argued that the inevitable has never happened because the Reaper solution prevented it and that it's only 'inevitable' if there is no intervention.  To allow zero intervention could be asking for the chaos he spoke of to arise.

Agree that the new 'solutions' do very little to change any of that.

Synthesis, everyone being madeof the same 'stuff' now, may not stop conflict, but if everyone is the same then there's no extinction.  Krogan origin synths wipe out the salarian origin synths?  No problem, plenty more where they came from.  'Life' will persist but not necessarily diverse culture.

Destroy makes the least sense as the galaxy is back at square one, but without the Reapers to ensure persistent organic life.

Control.  The cycles can be continued if it all goes ****** up.

All of course assuming that the machines/organics problem is actually a poblem.

[Argolas]

MrStoob wrote...

It could be argued that the inevitable has never happened because the Reaper solution prevented it and that it's only 'inevitable' if there is no intervention.

That is not logical. If something can be prevented, it is not inevitable. Applying the same logic on another example: I eat regularily to prevent myself starving to death. Although I need to eat in order to make sure I don't starve to death, that does not mean it is inevitable that I starve to death. In fact, I consider it very unlikely that this will happen.

[Steelcan]

Who bumped this insanity

[Seival]

masster blaster wrote...

Ya it's inevitable. Oh wait I picked Destroy.

This doesn't mean Synthesis isn't inevitable.

Steelcan wrote...

Who bumped this insanity

Insanity is the only difficulty level I know.

[Argolas]

Seival wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

Ya it's inevitable. Oh wait I picked Destroy.

This doesn't mean Synthesis isn't inevitable.

Wouldn't you agree that natural Synthesis if evolution demands it would be far better than forcing it through technology?

Known examples of natural Synthesis in the MEU: EDI, Legion
Known examples of forced Synthesis in the MEU: Saren, Collectors, Husks, the Reapers themselves...

[Seival]

Argolas wrote...

Seival wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

Ya it's inevitable. Oh wait I picked Destroy.

This doesn't mean Synthesis isn't inevitable.

Wouldn't you agree that natural Synthesis if evolution demands it would be far better than forcing it through technology?

Known examples of natural Synthesis in the MEU: EDI, Legion
Known examples of forced Synthesis in the MEU: Saren, Collectors, Husks, the Reapers themselves...

There is no natural Synthesis. EDI and Legion didn't gain any real understanding. They just managed to become friendly to some particular organics, nothing more...

...There are many humans friendly to each other in real life. But as a race we still kill each other day and night... even through we are all humans and "have no real reasons to fight".

True understanding can be achieved only by removing the differences. Nature can't do it herself, so we should help her before it will be too late to save anyone.

Modifié par Seival, 11 février 2013 - 09:20 .

[Argolas]

Seival wrote...
There is no natural Synthesis. EDI and Legion didn't gain any real understanding. They just managed to become friendly to some particular organics, nothing more...

...There are many humans friendly to each other in real life. But as a race we still kill each other day and night... even through we are all humans and "have no real reasons to fight".

True understanding can be achieved only by removing the differences. Nature can't do it itself, so we should help her before it will be too late to save anyone.

I disagree. Legion is arguable, but EDI turns from a machine (beginning of ME2) into a person (ME3) with very human thinking patterns and even emotions- she adapted and became alive. That's what I call "natural Synthesis".

Your second and third paragraph seem to contradict each other, Synthesis removes no more differences than our genetic code, it does not make humans more like each other. Unless, and that's what your post also seems to suggest, Synthesis indeed uses brainwashing in order to make us peaceful. An example would be Wreav who always goes to war if you have him in charge, except in Synthesis...

[adayaday]

Seival wrote...

True understanding can be achieved only by removing the differences.

And so it begins once more...

[Seival]

Argolas wrote...

Seival wrote...
There is no natural Synthesis. EDI and Legion didn't gain any real understanding. They just managed to become friendly to some particular organics, nothing more...

...There are many humans friendly to each other in real life. But as a race we still kill each other day and night... even through we are all humans and "have no real reasons to fight".

True understanding can be achieved only by removing the differences. Nature can't do it itself, so we should help her before it will be too late to save anyone.

I disagree. Legion is arguable, but EDI turns from a machine (beginning of ME2) into a person (ME3) with very human thinking patterns and even emotions- she adapted and became alive. That's what I call "natural Synthesis".

Your second and third paragraph seem to contradict each other, Synthesis removes no more differences than our genetic code, it does not make humans more like each other. Unless, and that's what your post also seems to suggest, Synthesis indeed uses brainwashing in order to make us peaceful. An example would be Wreav who always goes to war if you have him in charge, except in Synthesis...

Not brainwashing, but modifying. Making different races very similar (internally). Providing a ground to easily become one persistent society instead of being a union of subconsciously-hostile entities ready to destroy each other any time.

EDI and Legion didn't understand anything. They just modified their programming slightly to avoid becoming abuse. They learned how to mimic organics to look more natural among them, nothing more. Without Synthesis they will remain friendly mimics, few friendlies among not so friendly majority.