470 réponses à ce sujet

[Steelcan]

JohnShepard12 wrote...

 These fools can't accurately predict how evolution will go, especially since fusion of organics and synthetics requires human intervention. That's not evolution. Destroy the bastards and let the universe progress naturally.

. My point exactly

[Bill Casey]

o Ventus wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

1. Saren favored subjugation, not Synthesis.

"I won't let it happen to me"

Is submission not preferable to extinction?

Which is "not happening to him" because he's Sovereign's "ally"...

Not happening to him... Yet.

*Hint* It is happening to him...
But Saren thinks he's "working with the reapers", and Sovereign "needs" him...

[o Ventus]

Bill Casey wrote...

*Hint* It is happening to him...
But Saren thinks he's "working with the reapers", and Sovereign "needs" him...

Wait a second... Are we talking about submission or extinction?

[Seival]

Lizardviking wrote...

Seival wrote...

(1) Saren was stronger than any geth (even geth Prime). It would be logical for him to send some geth to open the relays, and go back to stop Shepard himself.

Seival, I hate this use this but... Have you ever considered that this is a story and in stories, the villains usually love to send their henchman before them to stop you and carry out their evil schemes themselves?

(2) Catalyst said it performed Synthesis attempts before, but they all failed eventually.

Yet this version of synthesis was not known to be possible before.

(3) At that moment Saren thought that Shepard will not understand or believe him. And it was true - Shepard would never believe that back in ME1.

Yet he tried to persuade you anyway... So again, why did he not bother mentiom this important detail.

(4) "Pillar of light" is just a visual representation of Synthesis in Shepard's and Catalyst's minds. Conversation with the Catalyst was clearly mental. There are no "glass tobes", "control rods", or "pillars of light" on the Citadel's sheathing.

So now we have entered a quasi-IT discussion?

Okay, **** it. I am out of here.

(1) Sure. But it also logical for the most strong unit to defend the position while some weak unit performes non-combat task.

(2) Becasue there were no "organic anomalies" like Shepard or Saren before.

(3) Yes, he tried to persuade you anyway, but he was not quite good at it. Also, he believed that Shepard would never understand from the beginning. So why share any "details Shepard would never believe"? Saren has low Charm skill, and he still hated humans.

(4) Not at all. Conversation with the Catalyst is mental, and it was clear from the beginning. Even in original endings. And this has nothing to do with "IT". Mind-control attempt was tried and failed before the conversation with the Catalyst. Indoctrinated person can't be used to create the new Catalyst... Eternal. Infinite. Immortal. Each word in the Control epilogue proves that Shepard wasn't indoctrinated.

Modifié par Seival, 20 octobre 2012 - 06:47 .

[Village_Idiot]

Seival wrote...

(4) Not at all. Conversation with the Catalyst is mental, and it was clear from the beginning.

Indulge my ignorance and explain how this is "clear".

[AdmiralCheez]

Meh. I like the Catalyst better as a dirty Reaper trick. Saren's goal was the same one he stated: open the relay and usher in the apocalypse.

Though this is an interesting theory that makes just enough sense to be acceptable headcanon, I don't like it. But thanks for the perspective, OP!

[Seival]

MegaSovereign wrote...

Seival if you like creating theories then how become you criticize the IT so much?

I like to create only a theories which are not conflicting with anything we actually see in game.

We can't be sure about what I posted in OP, but it could be a case. And no matter if this is the case or not, it will never conflict with the story. This is just a mistery, which will possibly never be solved.

Modifié par Seival, 20 octobre 2012 - 06:54 .

[o Ventus]

Seival wrote...

I like to create a theories which are not in conflicting with anything we actually see in game.

1. You theorized that the Normandy crash scene is a test flight set in the future.

2. You literally just said that Shepard isn't shooting a tube, isn't grabbing control rods, and isn't jumping into an energy beam.

[pmac_tk421]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Meh. I like the Catalyst better as a dirty Reaper trick. Saren's goal was the same one he stated: open the relay and usher in the apocalypse.

Though this is an interesting theory that makes just enough sense to be acceptable headcanon, I don't like it. But thanks for the perspective, OP!

What you want the ending to be doesn't change what the actual ending was.

[Seival]

o Ventus wrote...

Seival wrote...

I like to create a theories which are not in conflicting with anything we actually see in game.

1. You theorized that the Normandy crash scene is a test flight set in the future.

2. You literally just said that Shepard isn't shooting a tube, isn't grabbing control rods, and isn't jumping into an energy beam.

1. And it never conflicted with the game. The whole point of that theory was to prove that Mass Relays were not destroyed forever. And to ask devs not to remove the scene from the game, but just explain it.

2. And she didn't. I suggest you to rewatch the conversation scene, and observe its environment. Conversation with the Catalyst is similar to conversation with the Leviathan. "Shooting", "jumping", and "grabbing" is just a "mental signal" to the Catalyst about how to trigger the Crucible.

Modifié par Seival, 20 octobre 2012 - 07:02 .

[o Ventus]

Seival wrote...

1. And it never conflicted with the game. The whole point of that theory was to prove that Mass Relays were not destoryed forever. And to ask devs not to remove the scene from the game, but just explain it.

Not only did it conflict in-game evidence, it also didn't make a lick of logical sense.

2. And she didn't. I suggest you to rewatch the conversation scene, and observe its environment. Conversation with the Catalyst is similar to conversation with the Leviathan. "Shooting", "jumping", and "grabbing" is just a "mental signal" to the Catalyst about how to trigger the Crucible.

During the talk with Leviathan, Shepard was standing underwater without a helmet, talking to a humanoid figure that would occasionally transform into different people. Bioware also made it a point to show Shepard passed out in his Triton mech. The only evidence that shows the talk with the Catalyst is mental is the evidence you're making up in your head.

If I didn't already know you are serious, I would ask if you were trolling.

[dreamgazer]

pmac_tk421 wrote...

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Meh. I like the Catalyst better as a dirty Reaper trick. Saren's goal was the same one he stated: open the relay and usher in the apocalypse.

Though this is an interesting theory that makes just enough sense to be acceptable headcanon, I don't like it. But thanks for the perspective, OP!

What you want the ending to be doesn't change what the actual ending was.

Very true, but Cheez is hardly the only one who picked up on the the fact that the Catalyst operates on fallacies, assumptions, and head games that, ultimately, lead to alternatives which allow the Reapers to stick around for a later date. That's all observable interpretation.

[Seival]

Shadrach 88 wrote...

Seival wrote...

(4) Not at all. Conversation with the Catalyst is mental, and it was clear from the beginning.

Indulge my ignorance and explain how this is "clear".

You can't live in space without your environmental suit. I think it's quite obvious.

Also, noone will ever place any critical systems on station's surface without any defence. It's like placing a self-destruct button on a soldier armor's surface, and write a tip nearby: "press here to destroy the soldier".

[MegaSovereign]

Seival wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Seival if you like creating theories then how become you criticize the IT so much?

I like to create only a theories which are not conflicting with anything we actually see in game.

We can't be sure about what I posted in OP, but it could be a case. And no matter if this is the case or not, it will never conflict with the story. This is just a mistery, which will possibly never be solved.

But this one in particular does conflict with the story. You're essentially saying that Sovereign was modified into a Crucible before he attached himself to the Citadel...

[dreamgazer]

o Ventus wrote...

During the talk with Leviathan, Shepard was standing underwater without a helmet, talking to a humanoid figure that would occasionally transform into different people. Bioware also made it a point to show Shepard passed out in his Triton mech. The only evidence that shows the talk with the Catalyst is mental is the evidence you're making up in your head.

I'll disagree there, but the conversation will look similar to many, many others that people have had on this forum over the past seven months.

[MegaSovereign]

The Catalyst's image is in Shepard's head. The hologram appears to have no source. The rest of the scene however, is happening.

[Village_Idiot]

Seival wrote...

You can't live in space without your environmental suit. I think it's quite obvious.

The Citadel maintains an atmosphere in close proximity to its surface. Check the codex.

Also, noone will ever place any critical systems on station's surface without any defence. It's like placing a self-destruct button on a soldier armor's surface, and write a tip nearby: "press here to destroy the soldier".

Considering said systems are redundant unless the Crucible is docked, this is irrelevant.

[Steelcan]

MegaSovereign wrote...

The Catalyst's image is in Shepard's head. The hologram appears to have no source. The rest of the scene however, is happening.

. Imagine the dialogue if someone else was there with Shepard

[AdmiralCheez]

Steelcan wrote...

Imagine the dialogue if someone else was there with Shepard

"Shepard, what are you doing?"

"Hangon, Anderson--this kid's telling me the Reapers aren't really evil."

"Are you serious?  Come on, let's activate the Crucible and finish this!"

"Nonono, the kid says if I jump into the disintegration beam over there, I can usher in a new golden age."

"WHAT THE F**K, SHEPARD?!"

"No really, synthetics and organics living together, transcendence of the body and mind--"

"I TOLD YOU TO LEAVE THE RYNCOL ALONE, SHEPARD!"

[Seival]

o Ventus wrote...

Seival wrote...

1. And it never conflicted with the game. The whole point of that theory was to prove that Mass Relays were not destoryed forever. And to ask devs not to remove the scene from the game, but just explain it.

Not only did it conflict in-game evidence, it also didn't make a lick of logical sense.

2. And she didn't. I suggest you to rewatch the conversation scene, and observe its environment. Conversation with the Catalyst is similar to conversation with the Leviathan. "Shooting", "jumping", and "grabbing" is just a "mental signal" to the Catalyst about how to trigger the Crucible.

During the talk with Leviathan, Shepard was standing underwater without a helmet, talking to a humanoid figure that would occasionally transform into different people. Bioware also made it a point to show Shepard passed out in his Triton mech. The only evidence that shows the talk with the Catalyst is mental is the evidence you're making up in your head.

If I didn't already know you are serious, I would ask if you were trolling.

That old theory was logical enough and didn't conflict with the game. If you think otherwise - it's just your opinion. Besides, this thread is not about Normandy crash scene. The scene needs no more theories, because BioWare already explained it perfectly

And I already told what evidence can be used in case of Catalyst scene. Just read my previous posts. Seival is always serious. And looks like you are a little out of topic. We are discussing some thoughts on Synthesis here.

[Steelcan]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Steelcan wrote...
Imagine the dialogue if someone else was there with Shepard

"Shepard, what are you doing?"
"Hangon, Anderson--this kid's telling me the Reapers aren't really evil."
"Are you serious?  Come on, let's activate the Crucible and finish this!"
"Nonono, the kid says if I jump into the disintegration beam over there, I can usher in a new golden age."
"WHAT THE F**K, SHEPARD?!"
"No really, synthetics and organics living together, transcendence of the body and mind--"
"I TOLD YOU TO LEAVE THE RYNCOL ALONE, SHEPARD!"

. Javik-  Commander, there is no other here.  Are you seeing things, starting o agree with the reapers' goal?  
Shepard-No seriously you don't hear that or see him, he's telling us about how the reapers are our salvation.
Javik- Either kill the reapers, or I will

Modifié par Steelcan, 20 octobre 2012 - 07:27 .

[Seival]

Shadrach 88 wrote...

Seival wrote...

You can't live in space without your environmental suit. I think it's quite obvious.

The Citadel maintains an atmosphere in close proximity to its surface. Check the codex.

Also, noone will ever place any critical systems on station's surface without any defence. It's like placing a self-destruct button on a soldier armor's surface, and write a tip nearby: "press here to destroy the soldier".

Considering said systems are redundant unless the Crucible is docked, this is irrelevant.

It maintains an atmosphere only in habitable places, not everywhere. Otherwise it would have buildings on both sides of each ward, and on the Citadel Tower's surface. Remember ME1? "Gear up! We are going out."

Crucible is just an energy source and a bomb. It's not a hacking device wich gives you access to some Citadel's systems.

There is no reason to move some vital systems from the core to the surface. Even possibility for that makes no sense - too vulnorable and too expencive mechanism. In other words, if conversation was intended to be non-mental, it would take place inside the Citadel. More specifically, in the most protected part of the Citadel.

Modifié par Seival, 20 octobre 2012 - 07:38 .

[Bill Casey]

o Ventus wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

*Hint* It is happening to him...
But Saren thinks he's "working with the reapers", and Sovereign "needs" him...

Wait a second... Are we talking about submission or extinction?

Submission...

[Seival]

MegaSovereign wrote...

Seival wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Seival if you like creating theories then how become you criticize the IT so much?

I like to create only a theories which are not conflicting with anything we actually see in game.

We can't be sure about what I posted in OP, but it could be a case. And no matter if this is the case or not, it will never conflict with the story. This is just a mistery, which will possibly never be solved.

But this one in particular does conflict with the story. You're essentially saying that Sovereign was modified into a Crucible before he attached himself to the Citadel...

The story doesn't show any details about Nazara. No detailed Nazara's plot = no conflict.

EDIT: The same goes for old Normandy crash theory, by the way. No detailed crash scene = no conflict.

Modifié par Seival, 20 octobre 2012 - 07:48 .

[pmac_tk421]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Imagine the dialogue if someone else was there with Shepard

"Shepard, what are you doing?"

"Hangon, Anderson--this kid's telling me the Reapers aren't really evil."

"Are you serious?  Come on, let's activate the Crucible and finish this!"

"Nonono, the kid says if I jump into the disintegration beam over there, I can usher in a new golden age."

"WHAT THE F**K, SHEPARD?!"

"No really, synthetics and organics living together, transcendence of the body and mind--"

"I TOLD YOU TO LEAVE THE RYNCOL ALONE, SHEPARD!"

The fact that you don't trust him doesn't change the results. The writers wrote that he was telling the truth, so its cannon.