470 réponses à ce sujet

[Village_Idiot]

Seival wrote...

It maintains an atmosphere only in habitable places, not everywhere. Otherwise it would have buildings on both sides of each ward, and on the Citadel Tower's surface. Remember ME1? "Gear up! We are going out."

From the "Citadel" codex:

Numerous skyscrapers rise from the superstructure, sealed against vacuum, as breathable atmosphere is only maintained to a height of approximately 7 meters.

Hence why Shep and co. "seal up" upon exiting the Citadel tower. And of course there's no construction on the underside on the wards- the Citadel is designed to be able to seal itself. Completely redundant if it's accessible from outside.

Crucible is just an energy source and a bomb. It's not a hacking device wich gives you access to some Citadel's systems.

In which case, why does it dock with the Citadel at all? It must interface with it somehow.

There is no reason to move some vital systems from the core to the surface. Even possibility for that makes no sense - too vulnorable and too expencive mechanism. In other words, if conversation was intended to be non-mental, it would take place inside the Citadel. More specifically, in the most protected part of the Citadel
.

Funnily enough, when the Reapers built the Citadel I doubt they decided to install systems with the Crucible in mind.

The Crucible is the creation of organics, not the Reapers. It accomodates the Citadel's design and not vice versa.

Modifié par Shadrach 88, 20 octobre 2012 - 07:54 .

[Steelcan]

But it is possible for the reapers to have modified the citadel in response to the crucible. They knew it existed, Starbrat even tells you this himself

[Village_Idiot]

Steelcan wrote...

But it is possible for the reapers to have modified the citadel in response to the crucible. They knew it existed, Starbrat even tells you this himself

If this were so, then the Crucible shouldn't work at all. If the Reapers truly fear the Crucible's potential then the Citadel would have been altered to render it inoperable. Evidence in game points to the contrary, likely because the Reapers believed the Crucible no longer existed (which the Catalyst also states).

Modifié par Shadrach 88, 20 octobre 2012 - 08:02 .

[o Ventus]

Bill Casey wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

*Hint* It is happening to him...
But Saren thinks he's "working with the reapers", and Sovereign "needs" him...

Wait a second... Are we talking about submission or extinction?

Submission...

Never mind then. I was of the mindset we were discussing extinction.

[AdmiralCheez]

pmac_tk421 wrote...

The fact that you don't trust him doesn't change the results. The writers wrote that he was telling the truth, so its cannon.

CANON!

canon (noun):

1.an ecclesiastical rule or law enacted by a council or other competent authority and, in the Roman Catholic Church, approved by the pope

2. the body of ecclesiastical law.

3. the body of rules, principles, or standards accepted as axiomatic and universally binding in a field of study or art: the neoclassical canon.

4. a fundamental principle or general rule: the canons of good behavior.

5. a standard; criterion: the canons of taste.

cannon (noun):

1. a mounted gun for firing heavy projectiles or mortar.

2. British Machinery . quill ( def. 10 ) .

3. Armor . a cylindrical or semicylindrical piece of plate armor for the upper arm or forearm; a vambrace or rerebrace

4. Also called cannonbit, canon bit. a round bit for a horse.

5. the part of a bit that is in the horse's mouth.

Modifié par AdmiralCheez, 20 octobre 2012 - 08:03 .

[Steelcan]

Shadrach 88 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

But it is possible for the reapers to have modified the citadel in response to the crucible. They knew it existed, Starbrat even tells you this himself

If this were so, then the Crucible shouldn't work at all. If the Reapers truly fear the Crucible's potential then the Citadel would have been altered to render it inoperable. Evidence in game points to the contrary.

. It doesn't work remember.  You have to shoot the tube for it to fulfill its intended purpose

[Village_Idiot]

Steelcan wrote...

 It doesn't work remember.  You have to shoot the tube for it to fulfill its intended purpose

But it still operates. If The Reapers truly wanted/ knew how to counter the Crucible, there are umpteen ways they could have modified the Citadel to prevent such a thing from happening. In fact, the most logical thing to do would be to destroy the Citadel altogether.

Modifié par Shadrach 88, 20 octobre 2012 - 08:08 .

[Steelcan]

Shadrach 88 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

 It doesn't work remember.  You have to shoot the tube for it to fulfill its intended purpose

But it still operates. If The Reapers truly wanted/ knew how to counter the Crucible, there are umpteen ways they could have modified the Citadel to prevent such a thing from happening. In fact, the most logical thing to do would be to destroy the Citadel altogether.

. They knew plans for it existed, they were aware that it could destroy them. So they installed a device that prevented it from firing.

[Seival]

Shadrach 88 wrote...

Seival wrote...

It maintains an atmosphere only in habitable places, not everywhere. Otherwise it would have buildings on both sides of each ward, and on the Citadel Tower's surface. Remember ME1? "Gear up! We are going out."

From the "Citadel" codex:

Numerous skyscrapers rise from the superstructure, sealed against vacuum, as breathable atmosphere is only maintained to a height of approximately 7 meters.

Hence why Shep and co. "seal up" upon exiting the Citadel tower. And of course there's no construction on the underside on the wards- the Citadel is designed to be able to seal itself. Completely redundant if it's accessible from outside.

Crucible is just an energy source and a bomb. It's not a hacking device wich gives you access to some Citadel's systems.

In which case, why does it dock with the Citadel at all? It must interface with it somehow.

There is no reason to move some vital systems from the core to the surface. Even possibility for that makes no sense - too vulnorable and too expencive mechanism. In other words, if conversation was intended to be non-mental, it would take place inside the Citadel. More specifically, in the most protected part of the Citadel
.

Funnily enough, when the Reapers built the Citadel I doubt they decided to install systems with the Crucible in mind.

The Crucible is the creation of organics, not the Reapers. It accomodates the Citadel's design and not vice versa.

Do you remember the conversation with the Catalyst? Look above - the Crucible's axis of symmetry intersects with "the chamber's floor" at an angle of 90 degrees. The Crucible is right above you, which means the conversation "takes place" at the top of the Citadel's tower, ouside the station, on its surface. And you just confirmed that yourself - there is no atmosphere there.

Crucuble was attached to the Citadel to use it as an amlifier and a transmitter. The point of the Cricible is to turn the Citadel and all Mass Relays into the galactic-scale bomb.

I think it's clear that the Crucible isn't previous Cycles' invention. You can't invent something which has no clear purpose even to you. You can invent bomb, you can invent rifle, but you can't invent "I made some device... I don't know what it does, or how it can be turned on, but I made it". Most likely the Crucible was invented by the Leviathans, or by the Catalyst.

Modifié par Seival, 20 octobre 2012 - 08:14 .

[Village_Idiot]

Steelcan wrote...

 They knew plans for it existed, they were aware that it could destroy them. So they installed a device that prevented it from firing.

One that was circumvented by a human shooting a tube.

Call me a cynic, but if the Reapers really intended to stop the Crucible, they would have deployed far more substantial countermeasures than a rather fragile piece of glasswork. Most likely a device that perhaps would block the Crucible from docking, or hell, even cause it to backfire. The "Break glass in case of Reaper invasion" device seems to be little more than a trigger mechanism, and one done for dramatic effect.

[Steelcan]

Shadrach 88 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

 They knew plans for it existed, they were aware that it could destroy them. So they installed a device that prevented it from firing.

One that was circumvented by a human shooting a tube.

Call me a cynic, but if the Reapers really intended to stop the Crucible, they would have deployed far more substantial countermeasures than a rather fragile piece of glasswork. Most likely a device that perhaps would block the Crucible from docking, or hell, even cause it to backfire. The "Break glass in case of Reaper invasion" device seems to be little more than a trigger mechanism, and one done for dramatic effect.

. These were the same beings that thought that killing organics so they don't create synthetics to kill organics was sound reasoning.  I don't trust their reasoning capabilities too much

Modifié par Steelcan, 20 octobre 2012 - 08:26 .

[Deathsaurer]

Harbinger making the human Reaper proves they were still intent on the cycle, harvesting Earth proves they were still intent on the cycle. Otherwise they'd just have gone straight to the Citadel to do it instead of attacking everyone in sight. The Catalyst didn't decide it wanted the cycle to end until it had the power boost from the Crucible.

[Village_Idiot]

Seival wrote...

Do you remember the conversation with the Catalyst? Look above - the Crucible's axis of symmetry intersects with "the chamber's floor" at an angle of 90 degrees. The Crucible is right above you, which means the conversation "takes place" at the top of the Citadel's tower, ouside the station, on its surface. And you just confirmed that yourself - there is no atmosphere there.

You mean the "bottom" of the Citadel tower. The tower runs parallel to the wards, whilst the Crucible docks to its base, approaching the Presidium ring from the "rear" of the station. The tower's pinnacle is located at the other end.

Crucuble was attached to the Citadel to use it as an amlifier and a transmitter. The point of the Cricible is to turn the Citadel and all Mass Relays into the galactic-scale bomb.

You just previously stated that the Crucible doesn't interface with the Citadel's systems. I quote:

Crucible is just an energy source and a bomb. It's not a hacking device wich gives you access to some Citadel's systems.

This seems a hypocritical statement.  Regardless, I don't see how this is relevant to the point at hand.

I think it's clear that the Crucible isn't previous Cycles' invention. You can't invent something which has no clear purpose even to you. You can invent bomb, you can invent rifle, but you can't invent "I made some device... I don't know what it does, or how it can be turned on, but I made it". Most likely the Crucible was invented by the Leviathans, or by the Catalyst.

I don't see how this is relevant either.

[AdmiralCheez]

Shadrach 88 wrote...

One that was circumvented by a human shooting a tube.

Call me a cynic, but if the Reapers really intended to stop the Crucible, they would have deployed far more substantial countermeasures than a rather fragile piece of glasswork. Most likely a device that perhaps would block the Crucible from docking, or hell, even cause it to backfire. The "Break glass in case of Reaper invasion" device seems to be little more than a trigger mechanism, and one done for dramatic effect.

That's a likely interpretation.  What also might be possible is that they were confident that, once the Crucible had docked, they could successfully convince whatever organic came along into repurposing it.  Keep in mind they're still attacking the Crucible--it gets damaged if the fleet isn't strong enough, and the Reapers take it out if Shepard spends too much time dicking around.

The Reapers also seem to have a problem with putting glass tubes everywhere and underestimating Shepard's ability to wreck their stuff.

Modifié par AdmiralCheez, 20 octobre 2012 - 08:31 .

[Village_Idiot]

Steelcan wrote...

These were the same beings that thought that killing organics so they don't create synthetics to kill organics was sound reasoning.  I don't trust their reasoning capabilities too much

Logical reasoning? I agree entirely, the Reapers' motives are stark raving bonkers.

But their ability to wage war is unmatched. Half the galaxy is occupied by ME3's conclusion. So if they're faced with a superweapon that can destroy them all, I have little doubt their "countermeasure" would be more substantial than a very brittle tube.

[Steelcan]

Shadrach 88 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

These were the same beings that thought that killing organics so they don't create synthetics to kill organics was sound reasoning.  I don't trust their reasoning capabilities too much

Logical reasoning? I agree entirely, the Reapers' motives are stark raving bonkers.

But their ability to wage war is unmatched. Half the galaxy is occupied by ME3's conclusion. So if they're faced with a superweapon that can destroy them all, I have little doubt their "countermeasure" would be more substantial than a very brittle tube.

. They do destroy it if you take too long, that's a pretty effective countermeasure

[Village_Idiot]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

That's a likely interpretation. What also might be possible is that they were confident that, once the Crucible had docked, they could successfully convince whatever organic came along into repurposing it. Keep in mind they're still attacking the Crucible--it gets damaged if the fleet isn't strong enough, and the Reapers take it out if Shepard spends too much time dicking around.

The Reapers also seem to have a problem with putting glass tubes everywhere and underestimating Shepard's ability to wreck their stuff.

Steelcan wrote...

They do destroy it if you take too long, that's a pretty effective countermeasure

I agree that the Reapers quite obviously attempted to stop the Crucible- heck, it's the whole reason they move the Citadel to Earth in the first place. What I disagree with is the notion that the Citadel was somehow changed to counter the Crucible. A highly vulnerable glass tube just seems a laughable means of doing it.

Modifié par Shadrach 88, 20 octobre 2012 - 08:41 .

[Wayning_Star]

Well, OP, it would have to be found out what,exactly, synthesis is. Then it would could be considered in the canon ending.


(just like all the so called decisions given by the catalyst via the crucible... Shepard cannot even be sure that the question really matters, is some folks consider an indoctrination, whatever that is, as a possible/probable canon. It would seem there is NO actual [canon] ending in the series, if ME3 were supposed to contain one?)

[drayfish]

Seival wrote...

Davik Kang wrote...

Nice OP. I know you don't get on with the IT guys, or me or any other 'sympathisers', but it's a shame because I think if we pooled our resources instead of fighting, we could get to the bottom of this game.

I am the Shepard. United people of BSN, unite! We can figure this out I swear.

Thanks

As I said, I have nothing against "IT"ers and their theory, while none of them tries to "have some fun" in support threads and BSN in general. But when they do, I'm becoming quite angry...

...It's like in case of Refusal ending. I dislike this ending even more than "IT", but still tolerate refusers while they are not trying to make more "conventional victory via refusal" threads.

That seems to translate into: I will 'tolerate' other people's opinions as long as they shut up.

That's not what you meant, is it?

[Steelcan]

Shadrach 88 wrote...

AdmiralCheez wrote...
That's a likely interpretation. What also might be possible is that they were confident that, once the Crucible had docked, they could successfully convince whatever organic came along into repurposing it. Keep in mind they're still attacking the Crucible--it gets damaged if the fleet isn't strong enough, and the Reapers take it out if Shepard spends too much time dicking around.
The Reapers also seem to have a problem with putting glass tubes everywhere and underestimating Shepard's ability to wreck their stuff.

Steelcan wrote...
They do destroy it if you take too long, that's a pretty effective countermeasure

I agree that the Reapers quite obviously attempted to stop the Crucible- heck, it's the whole reason they move the Citadel to Earth in the first place. What I disagree with is the notion that the Citadel was somehow changed to counter the Crucible. A highly vulnerable glass tube just seems a laughable means of doing it.

. Then why doesn't the crucible fire as soon as it docks?  It should just fire and destroy the reapers.  It doesn't, conclusion: the Citadel has been changed to prevent it from firing. Destroy the tube causes it to perform as intended. Conclusion: this tube prevented it from firing

[AdmiralCheez]

Shadrach 88 wrote...

I agree that the Reapers quite obviously attempted to stop the Crucible- heck, it's the whole reason they move the Citadel to Earth in the first place. What I disagree with is the notion that the Citadel was somehow changed to counter the Crucible. A highly vulnerable glass tube just seems a laughable means of doing it.

Yeah, remember who we're dealing with:

[TheCrazyHobo]

Synthesis has already occurred naturally in the Mass Effect Universe without the use of Genetic Smoothies and Killer Giant Space Robots. In fact, the Virtual Aliens are quite peaceful and, believe it or not, their AI has not tried to kill them!

Honestly, Synthesis may occur naturally, but it is not a galactic imperative.

[Village_Idiot]

Steelcan wrote...

Then why doesn't the crucible fire as soon as it docks?  It should just fire and destroy the reapers.  It doesn't, conclusion: the Citadel has been changed to prevent it from firing. Destroy the tube causes it to perform as intended. Conclusion: this tube prevented it from firing

What I'm saying is that the Crucible is "working as intended". The tube/plot device (because I'm not kidding myself, it's only there for dramatic effect and little more) has to be destroyed to arm the Crucible. This presumably is a limitation of the Crucible's design, not something that was caused by Reaper machinations.

If this tube is truly a Reaper countermeasure to the Crucible, you'd think they could have used something a bit more substantial (like oh I don't know, a tube made of Reaperium rather than glass?) Considering their entire fleet is currently attempting to destroy the device, their attempt to stop it from firing by altering the Citadel is laughable by comparison. Hence why I don't believe it's their doing.

Modifié par Shadrach 88, 20 octobre 2012 - 08:55 .

[Steelcan]

Shadrach 88 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Then why doesn't the crucible fire as soon as it docks?  It should just fire and destroy the reapers.  It doesn't, conclusion: the Citadel has been changed to prevent it from firing. Destroy the tube causes it to perform as intended. Conclusion: this tube prevented it from firing

What I'm saying is that the Crucible is "working as intended". The tube/plot device (because I'm not kidding myself, it's only there for dramatic effect and little more) has to be destroyed to arm the Crucible. This presumably is a limitation of the Crucible's design, not something that was caused by Reaper machinations.

If this tube is truly a Reaper countermeasure to the Crucible, you'd think they could have used something a bit more substantial (like oh I don't know, a tube made of Reaperium rather than glass?) Considering their entire fleet is currently attempting to destroy the device, their attempt to stop it from firing by altering the Citadel is laughable. Hence why I don't believe it's their doing.

. It's not a limitation of the crucible, the decisions are all on the Citadel. As for your second point, I guess the reapers never figured anyone with a gun would reach it.

[Village_Idiot]

Steelcan wrote...
 It's not a limitation of the crucible, the decisions are all on the Citadel.

This doesn't mean it isn't a limitation of the Crucible. Its design accomodates the Citadel, and not vice versa. Presumably this was an oversight in its construction.

As for your second point, I guess the reapers never figured anyone with a gun would reach it.

As I said, a laughable oversight considering it's right on the Citadel's exterior. A fighter pilot could strafe the thing and achieve the same goal. Therefore, I don't believe it's any attempt at a countermeasure.

Modifié par Shadrach 88, 20 octobre 2012 - 09:01 .