470 réponses à ce sujet

[AlanC9]

Steelcan wrote...
Then why doesn't the crucible fire as soon as it docks?  It should just fire and destroy the reapers.  It doesn't, conclusion: the Citadel has been changed to prevent it from firing. Destroy the tube causes it to perform as intended. Conclusion: this tube prevented it from firing

Try this interpretation  -- I forget where it comes from.

The Crucible is WAD. However, it was never designed to Destroy the Reapers. Its designed function is Synthesis and always has been. Shooting the pipe results in a semi-controlled release of energy, which is why it's poorly targeted. I suppose if you shot a different pipe you could kill all organics or something.

Control is something that TIM added when he figured out how the Crucible worked.

(Note that this interpretation works if you want to assume that the Crucible is a Reaper design, though why the kid tells you about the pipe is something you'll have to work out for yourself)

Modifié par AlanC9, 20 octobre 2012 - 09:07 .

[Village_Idiot]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Yeah, remember who we're dealing with:

(snip)

To be honest, as strategists the Reapers are complete cretins. It's just hard to tell whether this is meant to be reflective of their arrogance (since they don't think organics are a credible threat to them whilst they commence the Reapin'), or simply poor writing.

Modifié par Shadrach 88, 20 octobre 2012 - 09:07 .

[AlanC9]

Shadrach 88 wrote...


To be honest, as strategists the Reapers are complete cretins. It's just hard to tell whether this is meant to be reflective of their arrogance (since they don't think organics are a credible threat to them), or simply poor writing.

Well, it's not arrogance if they're right about organics not being a threat.

[Steelcan]

AlanC9 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...
Then why doesn't the crucible fire as soon as it docks?  It should just fire and destroy the reapers.  It doesn't, conclusion: the Citadel has been changed to prevent it from firing. Destroy the tube causes it to perform as intended. Conclusion: this tube prevented it from firing

Try this interpretation  -- I forget where it comes from.

The Crucible is WAD. However, it was never designed to Destroy the Reapers. Its designed function is Synthesis and always has been. Shooting the pipe results in a semi-controlled release of energy, which is why it's poorly targeted. I suppose if you shot a different pipe you could kill all organics or something.
Control is something that TIM built when he figured out how the Crucible worked.

. That's the second dumbest thing I've heard in a long time.  It is said several times that the Crucible is capable of destroying the reapers.  And TIM never went up their to build in control.  If Javik is any indication, then the Protheans would have sooner refused before synthesis.  There is no reason to believe that synthesis is the goal for any cycle, only destroy

Modifié par Steelcan, 20 octobre 2012 - 09:16 .

[AdmiralCheez]

Shadrach 88 wrote...

To be honest, as strategists the Reapers are complete cretins. It's just hard to tell whether this is meant to be reflective of their arrogance (since they don't think organics are a credible threat to them whilst they commence the Reapin'), or simply poor writing.

Both, probably.  Then again, if the Reapers really were competent, ME1 would have gone like this:

>boot up game
>everyone dies
>the end

[Village_Idiot]

AlanC9 wrote...

Well, it's not arrogance if they're right about organics not being a threat.

Since the Reapers are happy to sit on Earth making smoothies whilst the squishy organics build their Crucible, I'd call it arrogance.

[Village_Idiot]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Both, probably.  Then again, if the Reapers really were competent, ME1 would have gone like this:

>boot up game
>everyone dies
>the end

True enough. To tell the truth, I'm more than aware that ME's primary plot has more holes than Swiss cheese, but then again, it's always been little more than a backdrop. The real meat of ME is its character interaction and universe, the threads that bind it all together. That's the series' strong suit.

I can forgive the oversights because the surrounding fluff is compelling enough to make me accept it, and not break suspension of disbelief.

[MrStoob]

The reaper ships are competent, as proven by the denial ending.

Didn't the catalyst say something along the lines that Synthesis wasn't viable in the past because the organics couldn't accept it, but in this cycle there is so much symbiosis between technology and organics that this cycle could/would?

[Steelcan]

MrStoob wrote...

The reaper ships are competent, as proven by the denial ending.

Didn't the catalyst say something along the lines that Synthesis wasn't viable in the past because the organics couldn't accept it, but in this cycle there is so much symbiosis between technology and organics that this cycle could/would?

. No, he said synthesis had been tried in the past *cough* reapers *cough*. But it was not a process that could be forced according to him...... I leave you to ponder the stupidity of that statement

[Synergizer]

The Crucible is (by definition) a situation in which concentrated forces interact to cause or influence change or development.

[Steelcan]

Synergizer wrote...

The Crucible is (by definition) a situation in which concentrated forces interact to cause or influence change or development.

. Yes, change the galaxy, by blowing the reapers to hell:devil:

[Seival]

Shadrach 88 wrote...

Seival wrote...

Do you remember the conversation with the Catalyst? Look above - the Crucible's axis of symmetry intersects with "the chamber's floor" at an angle of 90 degrees. The Crucible is right above you, which means the conversation "takes place" at the top of the Citadel's tower, ouside the station, on its surface. And you just confirmed that yourself - there is no atmosphere there.

You mean the "bottom" of the Citadel tower. The tower runs parallel to the wards, whilst the Crucible docks to its base, approaching the Presidium ring from the "rear" of the station. The tower's pinnacle is located at the other end.

Crucuble was attached to the Citadel to use it as an amlifier and a transmitter. The point of the Cricible is to turn the Citadel and all Mass Relays into the galactic-scale bomb.

You just previously stated that the Crucible doesn't interface with the Citadel's systems. I quote:

Crucible is just an energy source and a bomb. It's not a hacking device wich gives you access to some Citadel's systems.

This seems a hypocritical statement.  Regardless, I don't see how this is relevant to the point at hand.

I think it's clear that the Crucible isn't previous Cycles' invention. You can't invent something which has no clear purpose even to you. You can invent bomb, you can invent rifle, but you can't invent "I made some device... I don't know what it does, or how it can be turned on, but I made it". Most likely the Crucible was invented by the Leviathans, or by the Catalyst.

I don't see how this is relevant either.

The Tower consists of two parts. "The bottom" is the connection the Ring. The part which goes from "the bottom" to center of the Ring ends with "the top". One more part of the Tower is attached to "the top". The part that lies on the Citadel's and the Crucible's axis of symmetry. Or you thought that "tower" always = "pillar"? Besides, the Tower has no atmosphere on its entire surface. Even the Ring doesn't have antmosphere everywhere. I think its clear that there is no atmosphere between Citadel's surface and the Crucible.

I said that Crucible isn't a hacking device. It's a bomb and a power source. Crucible usage in combination with the Citadel plus the entire Mass Relays network is only up to the Catalyst. Shepard can only "tell" the Catalyst how to use the Crucible. The Catalyst helps Shepard willingly remember? It could just left Shepard to die, but instead it admitted its mistakes and suggested to find a new solution together.

EDIT: The Catalyst itself stated that the Crucible is just a "giant battery". So this is not just a theory.

Modifié par Seival, 20 octobre 2012 - 10:31 .

[pmac_tk421]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

pmac_tk421 wrote...

The fact that you don't trust him doesn't change the results. The writers wrote that he was telling the truth, so its cannon.

CANON!

canon (noun):

1.an ecclesiastical rule or law enacted by a council or other competent authority and, in the Roman Catholic Church, approved by the pope

2. the body of ecclesiastical law.

3. the body of rules, principles, or standards accepted as axiomatic and universally binding in a field of study or art: the neoclassical canon.

4. a fundamental principle or general rule: the canons of good behavior.

5. a standard; criterion: the canons of taste.

cannon (noun):

1. a mounted gun for firing heavy projectiles or mortar.

2. British Machinery . quill ( def. 10 ) .

3. Armor . a cylindrical or semicylindrical piece of plate armor for the upper arm or forearm; a vambrace or rerebrace

4. Also called cannonbit, canon bit. a round bit for a horse.

5. the part of a bit that is in the horse's mouth.

This is the second thread you've done this in. We're having an interesting debate, so stop derailing and get some backbone so we can continue.

[Seival]

Synergizer wrote...

The Crucible is (by definition) a situation in which concentrated forces interact to cause or influence change or development.

Crucible
1. A vessel made of a refractory substance such as graphite or porcelain, used for melting and calcining materials at high temperatures.
2. A severe test, as of patience or belief; a trial.
3. A place, time, or situation characterized by the confluence of powerful intellectual, social, economic, or political forces.


...Now, more on topic.

The Crucible = testing ground.
The Catalyst = the gate keeper.

Saren could know about that from some point. And the initial plan could be:
 - Use the United Geth Fleet as a destraction.
 - Attach repurposed Nazara to the Citadel.
 - Use Citadel's "back door" to let the Saren and his ground forces in.
 - Regain control over the Citadel to summon all Reapers from the Dark Space.
 - Perform Synthesis, by sacrificing the Saren.

This is quite similar to what we see in ME3 during taking Earth back actually.

Modifié par Seival, 20 octobre 2012 - 10:58 .

[Davik Kang]

Seival wrote...
Crucible
1. A vessel made of a refractory substance such as graphite or porcelain, used for melting and calcining materials at high temperatures.
2. A severe test, as of patience or belief; a trial.
3. A place, time, or situation characterized by the confluence of powerful intellectual, social, economic, or political forces.


...Now, more on topic.

The Crucible = testing ground.
The Catalyst = the gate keeper.

Saren could know about that from some point. And the initial plan could be:
 - Use the United Geth Fleet as a destraction.
 - Attach repurposed Nazara to the Citadel.
 - Use Citadel's "back door" to let the Saren and his ground forces in.
 - Regain control over the Citadel to summon all Reapers from the Dark Space.
 - Perform Synthesis, by sacrificing the Saren.

This is quite similar to what we see in ME3 during taking Earth back actually.

I completely agree with your point about the contraption at the top in space.  It is symbolic for the choices made.  The decision involves deciding what kind of energy to add to the Crucible ray.

Note that if you add the definition for catalyst to your above definition, you will see that a catalyst speeds up a reaction but is itself not changed.  The Child says the rather specific line "the Crucible changed me."  Meaning that he is not a Catalyst, and even if he was, he certainly isn't now.  At this moment, Shepard is the catalyst to this reaction.

Modifié par Davik Kang, 20 octobre 2012 - 11:31 .

[Seival]

Davik Kang wrote...

Seival wrote...
Crucible
1. A vessel made of a refractory substance such as graphite or porcelain, used for melting and calcining materials at high temperatures.
2. A severe test, as of patience or belief; a trial.
3. A place, time, or situation characterized by the confluence of powerful intellectual, social, economic, or political forces.


...Now, more on topic.

The Crucible = testing ground.
The Catalyst = the gate keeper.

Saren could know about that from some point. And the initial plan could be:
 - Use the United Geth Fleet as a destraction.
 - Attach repurposed Nazara to the Citadel.
 - Use Citadel's "back door" to let the Saren and his ground forces in.
 - Regain control over the Citadel to summon all Reapers from the Dark Space.
 - Perform Synthesis, by sacrificing the Saren.

This is quite similar to what we see in ME3 during taking Earth back actually.

I completely agree with your point about the contraption at the top in space.  It is symbolic for the choices made.  The decision involves deciding what kind of energy to add to the Crucible ray.

Note that if you add the definition for catalyst to your above definition, you will see that a catalyst speeds up a reaction but is itself not changed.  The Child says the rather specific line "the Crucible changed me."  Meaning that he is not a Catalyst, and even if he was, he certainly isn't now.  At this moment, Shepard is the catalyst to this reaction.

Which also confirms that Catalyst cooperating willingly, becasue it was convinced by Shepard's actions and abilities. Catalyst sees Shepard as an anomaly, a proof that Reaper solution was only temporary, and an entity which can be used to apply the final solution it looked for. Why not contact Shepard directly? Maybe because Catalyst still remembers the similar situation with the Saren, and how that ended?...

...Saren could convince the Catalyst the same way in ME1. And this could be a reason for Liara's mother to join Saren. They could both know about the Synthesis, and both thought that noone will believe them. Only Geth Heretics believed, and sacrificed their lives to try to achieve the final solution.

[Davik Kang]

Seival wrote...
 the final solution.

Might want to avoid saying that  Bill Casey already called you out on it once

[Seival]

Davik Kang wrote...

Seival wrote...
 the final solution.

Might want to avoid saying that  Bill Casey already called you out on it once

Hmm... English is not my main language, so I don't quite understand why this phrase is wrong. I only meant a solution which will resolve the problem completely, i.e. valid permanent solution, not a temporary one.

By the way. If not ME Trilogy, I wouldn't knew english well enough to speak here. The Trilogy is the only reason why I know english on current level, believe me or not

[Davik Kang]

Seival wrote...

Davik Kang wrote...

Seival wrote...
 the final solution.

Might want to avoid saying that  Bill Casey already called you out on it once

Hmm... English is not my main language, so I don't quite understand why this phrase is wrong. I only meant a solution which will resolve the problem completely, i.e. valid permanent solution, not a temporary one.

By the way. If not ME Trilogy, I wouldn't knew english well enough to speak here. The Trilogy is the only reason why I know english on current level, believe me or not

Interesting.  It might explain some of the misunderstandings on these boards.

Google 'Final Solution' to see why you should avoid using this phrase to describe anything you support.  Especially as the Control ending may be seen by some to be a little dictatorial in nature...

[mass perfection]

I...don't know.

[MrStoob]

Davik Kang wrote...

Seival wrote...

Davik Kang wrote...

Seival wrote...
 the final solution.

Might want to avoid saying that  Bill Casey already called you out on it once

Hmm... English is not my main language, so I don't quite understand why this phrase is wrong. I only meant a solution which will resolve the problem completely, i.e. valid permanent solution, not a temporary one.

By the way. If not ME Trilogy, I wouldn't knew english well enough to speak here. The Trilogy is the only reason why I know english on current level, believe me or not

Interesting.  It might explain some of the misunderstandings on these boards.

Google 'Final Solution' to see why you should avoid using this phrase to describe anything you support.  Especially as the Control ending may be seen by some to be a little dictatorial in nature...

Godwins law enacted.

[Fedi.St]

Reapers had a plan. Take by suprise everyone and make the best race a capital reaper by harvesting.

they fail and the races use an ancient device to destroy them. And the kid tries to force synthesis on everyone. EDI describes what will happen to the future but it's not actually happening . So there is not really synthesis. It's just another way of harvesting. there are many threads describing what you discussing and asking here. The game provides all the data and you refuse to see it.

Don't hurt our brains with these kind of "q and a". Please.

[CptBomBom00]

We destroy them or they destroy us.

Basically let it progress as cosmos intended.

[Seival]

Davik Kang wrote...

Seival wrote...

Davik Kang wrote...

Seival wrote...
 the final solution.

Might want to avoid saying that  Bill Casey already called you out on it once

Hmm... English is not my main language, so I don't quite understand why this phrase is wrong. I only meant a solution which will resolve the problem completely, i.e. valid permanent solution, not a temporary one.

By the way. If not ME Trilogy, I wouldn't knew english well enough to speak here. The Trilogy is the only reason why I know english on current level, believe me or not

Interesting.  It might explain some of the misunderstandings on these boards.

Google 'Final Solution' to see why you should avoid using this phrase to describe anything you support.  Especially as the Control ending may be seen by some to be a little dictatorial in nature...

Thanks for the tip