470 réponses à ce sujet

[Jadebaby]

Seival wrote...

Nazara could be repurposed before to be used as a Crucible analogy.

Appreciate the thought in this, but ^^^^ no.

[Seival]

Jade8aby88 wrote...

Seival wrote...

Nazara could be repurposed before to be used as a Crucible analogy.

Appreciate the thought in this, but ^^^^ no.

Why not?

Nazara could destroy the entire Citadel fleet alone. And it had Geth fleet on its side. Why not destroy all enemies first, and only after that go inside the Citadel without any risk? Nazara clearly didn't have to hurry if the task was only to retake the Citadel, killing everyone who will dare to oppose.

Maybe Catalyst wanted to minimize Citadel Fleet casualties, because it wanted to perform Synthesis? If Nazara attacked alone, it would face heavy resistance, and have to destroy each ship on its way. But with the Geth on its side Nazara was able to go directly to the Citadel without need to use its devastating weapons. Citadel Fleet casualties because of Geth fleet would be noticable, but not dire, if the initial plan would work. After taking some casualties the Citadel Fleet would just retreat, and a lot of people would be saved. Catalyst and Saren would perform the Synthesis, and the organic-vs-synthetic problem would be solved...

...But when plan was about to work, Aliance reinforcements arrived. This is were the mess began. Nazara even had to use its weapons eventually. If not that reinforcements, Geth maybe wouldn't even try to finish off Destiny Ascension, but rather let it go heavily damaged.



Speculation? We know almost nothing about what exactly happened on the enemy side in ME1. So, I guess this is not just speculation, but rather an attempt to investigate.

[DoomsdayDevice]

Oh look, Project Overlord tells you that control/synthesis are a no-no.

Gavin Archer: David volunteered to interface with the VI to give it genuine consciousness. Theoretically it should have been safe, but... with artificial intelligence there is no such thing as safe.

Shepard: Then you shouldn't have attempted it.

Just replace David with Shepard.

Gavin Archer: It would be the perfect weapon. -- Victory without casualties!

No ending foreshadowing here, nosirree.

Gavin Archer: Any war we fight with the Geth will be bloody. I was asked to find a way to avoid that.

Shepard: Who gave you the right to play God?

Gavin Archer: People who were too afraid to make difficult decisions themselves. When they pray for a miracle, they're really praying for men like me to make the tough choices. If my work spares a million mothers morning the loss of a million sons, my conscience will rest easy.

Yeah.

Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 22 octobre 2012 - 12:02 .

[Apocaleepse360]

Argolas wrote...

Destroy the reapers. Then let it occur naturally. This way, it won´t harm, at least.

Naturally? It'll never occur naturally. BioWare are talking out of their asses when they say it is the 'final' step of evolution for organic beings. Yeah we'll eventually have cybernetic implants and such, but we won't be literally coming out of the womb part synthetic.

[Necrotron]

Yep, the story apparently should have ended with Shepard getting out of Saren's way in Mass Effect 1.

[Seival]

A Bethesda Fan wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Oh look, Project Overlord tells you that control/synthesis are a no-no.

Gavin Archer: David volunteered to interface with the VI to give it genuine consciousness. Theoretically it should have been safe, but... with artificial intelligence there is no such thing as safe.

Shepard: Then you shouldn't have attempted it.

Just replace David with Shepard.

Gavin Archer: It would be the perfect weapon. -- Victory without casualties!

No ending foreshadowing here, nosirree.

Gavin Archer: Any war we fight with the Geth will be bloody. I was asked to find a way to avoid that.

Shepard: Who gave you the right to play God?

Gavin Archer: People who were too afraid to make difficult decisions themselves. When they pray for a miracle, they're really praying for men like me to make the tough choices. If my work spares a million mothers morning the loss of a million sons, my conscience will rest easy.

Yeah.

Great examples, control and synthesis people can't read this and think they made the right decision.

Overlord was an attempt to link a human brain to the AI. And the attempt failed of course, because such concept would never work in practice as intended.

Control is not a "link" or a "hack". It's reconstruction of the Catalyst's personality based on Shepard's mind. Which means the Catalyst remains in place, but now thinks like Shepard, and has all her memories. Human Shepard died in the process of giving birth to the new Catalyst.

...In short: Overlord and Control are completely different concepts.

Modifié par Seival, 22 octobre 2012 - 11:00 .

[Seival]

Bathaius wrote...

Yep, the story apparently should have ended with Shepard getting out of Saren's way in Mass Effect 1.

We can't say for sure what happens after "Game Over" pop-up in case if Shepard failed. This is "Game Over" for Shepard, not for the entire Galaxy.

Modifié par Seival, 22 octobre 2012 - 11:06 .

[toddx77]

A Bethesda Fan wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Oh look, Project Overlord tells you that control/synthesis are a no-no.

Gavin Archer: David volunteered to interface with the VI to give it genuine consciousness. Theoretically it should have been safe, but... with artificial intelligence there is no such thing as safe.

Shepard: Then you shouldn't have attempted it.

Just replace David with Shepard.

Gavin Archer: It would be the perfect weapon. -- Victory without casualties!

No ending foreshadowing here, nosirree.

Gavin Archer: Any war we fight with the Geth will be bloody. I was asked to find a way to avoid that.

Shepard: Who gave you the right to play God?

Gavin Archer: People who were too afraid to make difficult decisions themselves. When they pray for a miracle, they're really praying for men like me to make the tough choices. If my work spares a million mothers morning the loss of a million sons, my conscience will rest easy.

Yeah.

Great examples, control and synthesis people can't read this and think they made the right decision.

I read it and still think Synthesis was the right descesion.  By synthesizing all all organics and synthetics, organics gain synthetic abilites and synthetics are able to better understand organics a win/win.  The reapers stop trying to harvest all organics, which I admit doesn't really make a lot of sense but I figure with the lines of synthetics and organics so blurred now and everyone in the galaxy sharing the same DNA the Reapers maybe saw everyone else the same as they are.  Finally everyone gets all the knowledge of all the past civilizations that have been harvested.  So basically everyone now has more advanced genes, more knowledge than ever before, and the Reapers working with us.  It's like Kai Lang said "We evolve or we die".

[DoomsdayDevice]

starlitegirlx wrote...

toddx77 wrote...

A Bethesda Fan wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Oh look, Project Overlord tells you that control/synthesis are a no-no.

Gavin Archer: David volunteered to interface with the VI to give it genuine consciousness. Theoretically it should have been safe, but... with artificial intelligence there is no such thing as safe.

Shepard: Then you shouldn't have attempted it.

Just replace David with Shepard.

Gavin Archer: It would be the perfect weapon. -- Victory without casualties!

No ending foreshadowing here, nosirree.

Gavin Archer: Any war we fight with the Geth will be bloody. I was asked to find a way to avoid that.

Shepard: Who gave you the right to play God?

Gavin Archer: People who were too afraid to make difficult decisions themselves. When they pray for a miracle, they're really praying for men like me to make the tough choices. If my work spares a million mothers morning the loss of a million sons, my conscience will rest easy.

Yeah.

Great examples, control and synthesis people can't read this and think they made the right decision.

I read it and still think Synthesis was the right descesion.  By synthesizing all all organics and synthetics, organics gain synthetic abilites and synthetics are able to better understand organics a win/win.  The reapers stop trying to harvest all organics, which I admit doesn't really make a lot of sense but I figure with the lines of synthetics and organics so blurred now and everyone in the galaxy sharing the same DNA the Reapers maybe saw everyone else the same as they are.  Finally everyone gets all the knowledge of all the past civilizations that have been harvested.  So basically everyone now has more advanced genes, more knowledge than ever before, and the Reapers working with us.  It's like Kai Lang said "We evolve or we die".

You just used crazy evil Kai Leng as your justification? Seriously? We all saw what he evolved into just as we saw what Tim and his tools evolved into. That's what you get when you screw with nature. Forcing genetic modification at the level of what was done to the protheans on the collector ship (because that was the reapers who did that) is a horrific choice. Sure, BW made it look pretty to appease those who chose synthesis and need to feel right about it, but throughout the trilogy we have seen what forced modification does to species. Look at those reaper forces. Disgusting. Look at saren - he was synthesis and became a harbinger tool tha was some hideous leapfrog lazer spitting death machine. Frankly, the way BW makes synthesis look after all the information gathered along the way on what toying and meddling with evolution does (heck, even the protheans messing with the asari is an example of that as they just became all about wanting to hoarde power and they also were a lawless society filled with gangs and dancers and contracts that screw people), there's no way anyone can look at synthesis with all that information at hand and think it's a good thing or that it's not going to evolve into something insidious at some point. Furthermore, giving the reapers what they want after what they have done to the galaxy for millions of years seems utterly insane. Synthesis is letting the reapers win. Nothing more. And at the cost of the galaxy that is now filled with unknowns except if you were paying attention during the first two games you've realize it was the worst of all the choices. Meddling and controlling things at that level never goes well. And after synthesis you can't fix it or go back. It's done. Galaxy screwed.

Indoctrinated villains: We evolve or we die! Control is the means to survival! A harmony of flesh and machine!

All your friends and allies: There's only one way to beat the Reapers: No more Reapers. Show no quarter, mercy or weakness. We destroy them or they destroy us.

Gee, I wonder who my moral compass should be!

Also:

Harbinger:

“They will be as we are.”

“We are your genetic destiny.”

“We are the Harbinger of your ascendance.”

“Evolution cannot be stopped.”

Synthesis! Seems! Legit!

But no, there´s no way the catalyst can be Harbinger in disguise! Because Reapers totally don´t have the ability to take your memories and build illusions from them, no! That´s not what Leviathan told us at all! The Reaper AI must be telling the truth! The Reapers are just doing their programming! they´re not trying to trick you at all!

Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 22 octobre 2012 - 02:11 .

[Argolas]

Apocaleepse360 wrote...

Argolas wrote...

Destroy the reapers. Then let it occur naturally. This way, it won´t harm, at least.

Naturally? It'll never occur naturally. BioWare are talking out of their asses when they say it is the 'final' step of evolution for organic beings. Yeah we'll eventually have cybernetic implants and such, but we won't be literally coming out of the womb part synthetic.

Who knows? Maybe Bioware thinks it does, and if Bioware decides so, it will.

And I don't care if it will occur naturally or not. The only thing I know is that I will destroy the reapers and then let evolution decide. If it occurs naturally, this is the way it should be all right. If it does not, fine. But I won't force it and all of my friends in the game seem to agree, especially the Salarians who know their similar mistakes in the past. Specifically Mordin and Kirrahe.

[Tomwew]

ah yes the catalyst's 'final solution' to bring genetic perfection to the galaxy.

terrifying, megalomaniacal, evil ending. give the catalyst a side parting an a bad 'stache and all of a sudden synthesis seems a very familiar concept.

[DoomsdayDevice]

starlitegirlx wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

starlitegirlx wrote...

toddx77 wrote...

A Bethesda Fan wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Oh look, Project Overlord tells you that control/synthesis are a no-no.

Gavin Archer: David volunteered to interface with the VI to give it genuine consciousness. Theoretically it should have been safe, but... with artificial intelligence there is no such thing as safe.

Shepard: Then you shouldn't have attempted it.

Just replace David with Shepard.

Gavin Archer: It would be the perfect weapon. -- Victory without casualties!

No ending foreshadowing here, nosirree.

Gavin Archer: Any war we fight with the Geth will be bloody. I was asked to find a way to avoid that.

Shepard: Who gave you the right to play God?

Gavin Archer: People who were too afraid to make difficult decisions themselves. When they pray for a miracle, they're really praying for men like me to make the tough choices. If my work spares a million mothers morning the loss of a million sons, my conscience will rest easy.

Yeah.

Great examples, control and synthesis people can't read this and think they made the right decision.

I read it and still think Synthesis was the right descesion.  By synthesizing all all organics and synthetics, organics gain synthetic abilites and synthetics are able to better understand organics a win/win.  The reapers stop trying to harvest all organics, which I admit doesn't really make a lot of sense but I figure with the lines of synthetics and organics so blurred now and everyone in the galaxy sharing the same DNA the Reapers maybe saw everyone else the same as they are.  Finally everyone gets all the knowledge of all the past civilizations that have been harvested.  So basically everyone now has more advanced genes, more knowledge than ever before, and the Reapers working with us.  It's like Kai Lang said "We evolve or we die".

You just used crazy evil Kai Leng as your justification? Seriously? We all saw what he evolved into just as we saw what Tim and his tools evolved into. That's what you get when you screw with nature. Forcing genetic modification at the level of what was done to the protheans on the collector ship (because that was the reapers who did that) is a horrific choice. Sure, BW made it look pretty to appease those who chose synthesis and need to feel right about it, but throughout the trilogy we have seen what forced modification does to species. Look at those reaper forces. Disgusting. Look at saren - he was synthesis and became a harbinger tool tha was some hideous leapfrog lazer spitting death machine. Frankly, the way BW makes synthesis look after all the information gathered along the way on what toying and meddling with evolution does (heck, even the protheans messing with the asari is an example of that as they just became all about wanting to hoarde power and they also were a lawless society filled with gangs and dancers and contracts that screw people), there's no way anyone can look at synthesis with all that information at hand and think it's a good thing or that it's not going to evolve into something insidious at some point. Furthermore, giving the reapers what they want after what they have done to the galaxy for millions of years seems utterly insane. Synthesis is letting the reapers win. Nothing more. And at the cost of the galaxy that is now filled with unknowns except if you were paying attention during the first two games you've realize it was the worst of all the choices. Meddling and controlling things at that level never goes well. And after synthesis you can't fix it or go back. It's done. Galaxy screwed.

Indoctrinated villains: We evolve or we die! Control is the means to survival! A harmony of flesh and machine!

All your friends and allies: There's only one way to beat the Reapers: No more Reapers. Show no quarter, mercy or weakness. We destroy them or they destroy us.

Gee, I wonder who my moral compass should be!

Also:

Harbinger:

“They will be as we are.”

“We are your genetic destiny.”

“We are the Harbinger of your ascendance.”

“Evolution cannot be stopped.”

Synthesis! Seems! Legit!

But no, there´s no way the catalyst can be Harbinger in disguise! Because Reapers totally don´t have the ability to take your memories and build illusions from them, no! That´s not what Leviathan told us at all! The Reaper AI must be telling the truth! The Reapers are just doing their programming! they´re not trying to trick you at all!

Is that sarcasm or are you backing synthesis? I'm lost here. The reapers build illusions via indoctrination.

The fact that they use indoctrination is pretty much all you need to know. They manipulate you to their side and it's all an illusion and lies. So the catalyst cannot be trusted. It's the AI housed in a reaper device which was built after the deaths of leviathans. So the AI itself is a reaper construct who is working toward the reapers agenda. Also, according to leviathan, there is still that core need to have servants. That is what is at the core of what the reapers want only they evolved and sped up the cycles and became ruthless about it beyond what leviathans could comprehend possible.

Evolution cannot be stopped, but evolution is natural. Harbinger and the reapers screw with it and alter the DNA on a massive scale. That is NOT evolution. That's meddling. Harbinger might like to think and call it evolution, but it was actually mutation - forced genetic mutation. Nothing even close to evolution.

Of course I'm sarcastic.

Everything I posted goes against control/synthesis being valid options.

Just look at my original post that you quoted, with the Project Overlord quotes.

Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 22 octobre 2012 - 03:32 .

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Tomwew wrote...

ah yes the catalyst's 'final solution' to bring genetic perfection to the galaxy.

terrifying, megalomaniacal, evil ending. give the catalyst a side parting an a bad 'stache and all of a sudden synthesis seems a very familiar concept.

Better than commiting genocide.

Modifié par LDS Darth Revan, 22 octobre 2012 - 03:37 .

[Yate]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Tomwew wrote...

ah yes the catalyst's 'final solution' to bring genetic perfection to the galaxy.

terrifying, megalomaniacal, evil ending. give the catalyst a side parting an a bad 'stache and all of a sudden synthesis seems a very familiar concept.

Better than commiting genocide.

Heh, yes, breaking computers is 'genocide'.

Go watch My Little Pony if you want perfect endings, here in the real world, it doesn't work like that.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Yate wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Tomwew wrote...

ah yes the catalyst's 'final solution' to bring genetic perfection to the galaxy.

terrifying, megalomaniacal, evil ending. give the catalyst a side parting an a bad 'stache and all of a sudden synthesis seems a very familiar concept.

Better than commiting genocide.

Heh, yes, breaking computers is 'genocide'.

Go watch My Little Pony if you want perfect endings, here in the real world, it doesn't work like that.

They are Synthetic LIFE, so yes it's genocide.

Modifié par LDS Darth Revan, 22 octobre 2012 - 03:58 .

[Tomwew]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Yate wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Tomwew wrote...

ah yes the catalyst's 'final solution' to bring genetic perfection to the galaxy.

terrifying, megalomaniacal, evil ending. give the catalyst a side parting an a bad 'stache and all of a sudden synthesis seems a very familiar concept.

Better than commiting genocide.

Heh, yes, breaking computers is 'genocide'.

Go watch My Little Pony if you want perfect endings, here in the real world, it doesn't work like that.

They are Synthetic LIFE, so yes it's genocide.

i agree, it is genocide, but not my genocide, the catalyst's. eugenics ain't my bag.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Tomwew wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Yate wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Tomwew wrote...

ah yes the catalyst's 'final solution' to bring genetic perfection to the galaxy.

terrifying, megalomaniacal, evil ending. give the catalyst a side parting an a bad 'stache and all of a sudden synthesis seems a very familiar concept.

Better than commiting genocide.

Heh, yes, breaking computers is 'genocide'.

Go watch My Little Pony if you want perfect endings, here in the real world, it doesn't work like that.

They are Synthetic LIFE, so yes it's genocide.

i agree, it is genocide, but not my genocide, the catalyst's. eugenics ain't my bag.

And you are welcome to your opinion. Mine is just different.

[DoomsdayDevice]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Tomwew wrote...

ah yes the catalyst's 'final solution' to bring genetic perfection to the galaxy.

terrifying, megalomaniacal, evil ending. give the catalyst a side parting an a bad 'stache and all of a sudden synthesis seems a very familiar concept.

Better than commiting genocide.

Project Overlord:

Gavin Archer: It would be the perfect weapon. -- Victory without casualties!

Gavin Archer: Any war we fight with the Geth will be bloody. I was asked to find a way to avoid that.

Shepard: Who gave you the right to play God?

Gavin Archer: People who were too afraid to make difficult decisions themselves.
When they pray for a miracle, they're really praying for men like me to
make the tough choices. If my work spares a million mothers morning the
loss of a million sons, my conscience will rest easy.

Gavin Archer: Shepard David volunteered to interface with the VI to give it genuine consciousness. Theoretically it should have been safe, but... with artificial intelligence there is no such thing as safe.

Shepard: Then you shouldn't have attempted it.

Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 22 octobre 2012 - 04:21 .