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[MegaSovereign]

The only synthesis that will be happening here is MY BULLET AND THE POWER CONDUIT.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Tomwew wrote...

ah yes the catalyst's 'final solution' to bring genetic perfection to the galaxy.

terrifying, megalomaniacal, evil ending. give the catalyst a side parting an a bad 'stache and all of a sudden synthesis seems a very familiar concept.

Better than commiting genocide.

Project Overlord:

Gavin Archer: It would be the perfect weapon. -- Victory without casualties!

Gavin Archer: Any war we fight with the Geth will be bloody. I was asked to find a way to avoid that.

Shepard: Who gave you the right to play God?

Gavin Archer: People who were too afraid to make difficult decisions themselves.
When they pray for a miracle, they're really praying for men like me to
make the tough choices. If my work spares a million mothers morning the
loss of a million sons, my conscience will rest easy.

Gavin Archer: Shepard David volunteered to interface with the VI to give it genuine consciousness. Theoretically it should have been safe, but... with artificial intelligence there is no such thing as safe.

Shepard: Then you shouldn't have attempted it.

What do you want me to see in this, because I'm confused about your point in this post?

Modifié par LDS Darth Revan, 22 octobre 2012 - 04:27 .

[DoomsdayDevice]

starlitegirlx wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Of course I'm sarcastic.

Everything I posted goes against control/synthesis being valid options.

Just look at my original post that you quoted, with the Project Overlord quotes.

I haven't been following the whole thread. Loved the project overlord quotes though. I asked because I can't always tell when someone is being sarcastic online. Project overlord is a great example though. Thanks for posting that.

Really, there are so many places where they use examples of why control and synthesis would be disasterous choices. I'm astounded people can't figure that out. It's like they aren't playing the same game. We see all the destruction caused by meddling and trying to control. Illusive man - perfect example. The salarains in ME3 even state that they think evolution should take its natural course (well the ones we speak with) minus the idiot councilor though the councilor does admit that uplifting the krogan was bad and so that lesson was learned there.

The whole series screams at you how meddling and controlling things that you shouldn't meddle with or try to control has dire outcomes. Hell, the whole function of the reapers is meddling and controlling and if that isn't the most obvious example of why you don't choose control or synthesis, I don't know what is.

I get why people chose them. They were dressed up pretty and looked nice and safe, but also there are conversations where it's stated that the difficult choice is often the best one. The N7 conversation with vega is pretty much spoonfeeding you to choose destroy. The right choice is often the most difficult one.

If you play though the series or at least through ME3 and pay attention to all the conversations - legion is good in ME2 for some interesting input but in ME3 there's Vega in the N7, EDI - almost every question she asks leads to this conclusion and she even comes to it on her own in london. It's all over the place. DESTROY.  But destroy leaves things open and we don't get the closure we want in some cases. Things are a mess and need to be rebuilt. Not the happiest outcome if you see the control and synthesis endings, but then again, I don't believe the brat so seeing those endings seems like indoctrination and hallucinations to me.

Agreed.

Shepard: If you'd saved them all, would things have worked out better?
Vega: I... I don't know. I don't think so.
Shepard: The right choice is usually not the easy one.

Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 22 octobre 2012 - 04:28 .

[Argolas]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...
They are Synthetic LIFE, so yes it's genocide.

It's not.

Genocide is "the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group"

Destroying the Geth with the crucible only fits the definition of genocide if you use it in order to kill them. I guess no Shepard ever did that because if he/she likes them killed, he/she would do that on Rannoch. In my and most other cases, destroying the Geth with the crucible is collatoral damage. This may not make it much better, but the term genocide is not right here.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Argolas wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...
They are Synthetic LIFE, so yes it's genocide.

It's not.

Genocide is "the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group"

Destroying the Geth with the crucible only fits the definition of genocide if you use it in order to kill them. I guess no Shepard ever did that because if he/she likes them killed, he/she would do that on Rannoch. In my and most other cases, destroying the Geth with the crucible is collatoral damage. This may not make it much better, but the term genocide is not right here.

You're commiting genocide on the Reapers, so it's used right.

[DoomsdayDevice]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Tomwew wrote...

ah yes the catalyst's 'final solution' to bring genetic perfection to the galaxy.

terrifying, megalomaniacal, evil ending. give the catalyst a side parting an a bad 'stache and all of a sudden synthesis seems a very familiar concept.

Better than commiting genocide.

Project Overlord:

Gavin Archer: It would be the perfect weapon. -- Victory without casualties!

Gavin Archer: Any war we fight with the Geth will be bloody. I was asked to find a way to avoid that.

Shepard: Who gave you the right to play God?

Gavin Archer: People who were too afraid to make difficult decisions themselves.
When they pray for a miracle, they're really praying for men like me to
make the tough choices. If my work spares a million mothers morning the
loss of a million sons, my conscience will rest easy.

Gavin Archer: Shepard David volunteered to interface with the VI to give it genuine consciousness. Theoretically it should have been safe, but... with artificial intelligence there is no such thing as safe.

Shepard: Then you shouldn't have attempted it.

What do you want me to see in this, because I'm confused about your point in this post?

Quotes from Project Overlord that control/synthesis scenarios are a no-no.

They heavily foreshadow the ending, and show that the desire to have victory without casualties is a road to hell paved with good intentions.

Another quote that supports this:

Shepard: If you'd saved them all, would things have worked out better?
Vega: I... I don't know. I don't think so.
Shepard: The right choice is usually not the easy one.

And if you are going to interface with an artificial intelligence to give it genuine consciousness, you're in for a surprise. If the VI drove Archer insane, what do you think will happen when Shepard interfaces with a Reaper AI?

Just replace David with Shepard in this sentence:

"David volunteered to interface with the VI to give it genuine consciousness. Theoretically it should have been safe, but... with artificial intelligence there is no such thing as safe."

Overlord is heavy foreshadowing against control/synthesis, up to and including the green eyes.

Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 22 octobre 2012 - 04:39 .

[Hanako Ikezawa]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Tomwew wrote...

ah yes the catalyst's 'final solution' to bring genetic perfection to the galaxy.

terrifying, megalomaniacal, evil ending. give the catalyst a side parting an a bad 'stache and all of a sudden synthesis seems a very familiar concept.

Better than commiting genocide.

Project Overlord:

Gavin Archer: It would be the perfect weapon. -- Victory without casualties!

Gavin Archer: Any war we fight with the Geth will be bloody. I was asked to find a way to avoid that.

Shepard: Who gave you the right to play God?

Gavin Archer: People who were too afraid to make difficult decisions themselves.
When they pray for a miracle, they're really praying for men like me to
make the tough choices. If my work spares a million mothers morning the
loss of a million sons, my conscience will rest easy.

Gavin Archer: Shepard David volunteered to interface with the VI to give it genuine consciousness. Theoretically it should have been safe, but... with artificial intelligence there is no such thing as safe.

Shepard: Then you shouldn't have attempted it.

What do you want me to see in this, because I'm confused about your point in this post?

Quotes from Project Overlord that control/synthesis scenarios are a no-no.

They haveily foreshadow the ending, and show that the desire to have victory is without casualties is a road to hell paved with good intentions.

Another quote that supports this:

Shepard: If you'd saved them all, would things have worked out better?
Vega: I... I don't know. I don't think so.
Shepard: The right choice is usually not the easy one.

And if you are going to interface with an artificial intelligence to
give it genuine consciousness, you're in for a surprise. If the VI drove
Archer insane, what do you think will happen when Shepard interfaces
with a Reaper AI?

Just replace David with Shepard in this sentence:

"David volunteered to interface with the VI to give it genuine
consciousness. Theoretically it should have been safe, but... with
artificial intelligence there is no such thing as safe."

Overlord is heavy foreshadowing against control/synthesis, up to and including the green eyes.

I agree with it foreshadowing Control(this is Cerberus afterall) but I don't see the Synthesis reference in Project Overlord.

[DoomsdayDevice]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Tomwew wrote...

ah yes the catalyst's 'final solution' to bring genetic perfection to the galaxy.

terrifying, megalomaniacal, evil ending. give the catalyst a side parting an a bad 'stache and all of a sudden synthesis seems a very familiar concept.

Better than commiting genocide.

Project Overlord:

Gavin Archer: It would be the perfect weapon. -- Victory without casualties!

Gavin Archer: Any war we fight with the Geth will be bloody. I was asked to find a way to avoid that.

Shepard: Who gave you the right to play God?

Gavin Archer: People who were too afraid to make difficult decisions themselves.
When they pray for a miracle, they're really praying for men like me to
make the tough choices. If my work spares a million mothers morning the
loss of a million sons, my conscience will rest easy.

Gavin Archer: Shepard David volunteered to interface with the VI to give it genuine consciousness. Theoretically it should have been safe, but... with artificial intelligence there is no such thing as safe.

Shepard: Then you shouldn't have attempted it.

What do you want me to see in this, because I'm confused about your point in this post?

Quotes from Project Overlord that control/synthesis scenarios are a no-no.

They heavily foreshadow the ending, and show that the desire to have victory is without casualties is a road to hell, paved with good intentions.

Another quote that supports this:

Shepard: If you'd saved them all, would things have worked out better?
Vega: I... I don't know. I don't think so.
Shepard: The right choice is usually not the easy one.

And if you are going to interface with an artificial intelligence to give it genuine consciousness, you're in for a surprise. If the VI drove Archer insane, what do you think will happen when Shepard interfaces with a Reaper AI?

Just replace David with Shepard in this sentence:

"David volunteered to interface with the VI to give it genuine consciousness. Theoretically it should have been safe, but... with artificial intelligence there is no such thing as safe."

Overlord is heavy foreshadowing against control/synthesis, up to and including the green eyes.

I agree with it foreshadowing Control(this is Cerberus afterall) but I don't see the Synthesis reference in Project Overlord.

Gavin Archer: This is a hybrid intelligence the likes of which I have never seen. I don't know where the man ends and the machine begins.

Shepard: You should have considered that before you started the experiment.

Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 22 octobre 2012 - 04:44 .

[Argolas]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Argolas wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...
They are Synthetic LIFE, so yes it's genocide.

It's not.

Genocide is "the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group"

Destroying the Geth with the crucible only fits the definition of genocide if you use it in order to kill them. I guess no Shepard ever did that because if he/she likes them killed, he/she would do that on Rannoch. In my and most other cases, destroying the Geth with the crucible is collatoral damage. This may not make it much better, but the term genocide is not right here.

You're commiting genocide on the Reapers, so it's used right.

Then I misunderstood you, sorry for that. Yes, regarding the reapers, it is genocide if you want it that way.

But in my eyes this is justified, the reapers are no equal life. They can't reproduce unless commiting genocide themselves. Shepard said

"This is an abomination. How do we destroy it?"

when he/she first saw the human reaper in ME2, and I totally agree.
Plus, the reapers are always controlled. Reaper kid controls them, the Leviathans control them, Holoshep control them. Another Shepard quote:

"The defining characteristic of organic life is that we think for ourselves - make our own choices"

I can't accept those genocide spaceships as worthy life. Call me a racist now if you want.

EDIT: Look at the term "genocide" itself. It involves "genes". Reapers don't even have those, they have to steal their genes by harvesting other races.

Modifié par Argolas, 22 octobre 2012 - 04:46 .

[Hanako Ikezawa]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...
Gavin Archer: This is a hybrid intelligence the likes of which I have never seen. I don't know where the man ends and the machine begins.

Shepard: You should have considered that before you started the experiment.

That's stretching it a bit far imo. That's like Shepard being "like, half robot now" is foreshadowing Synthesis. Technically can, but not intended.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Argolas wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Argolas wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...
They are Synthetic LIFE, so yes it's genocide.

It's not.

Genocide is "the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group"

Destroying the Geth with the crucible only fits the definition of genocide if you use it in order to kill them. I guess no Shepard ever did that because if he/she likes them killed, he/she would do that on Rannoch. In my and most other cases, destroying the Geth with the crucible is collatoral damage. This may not make it much better, but the term genocide is not right here.

You're commiting genocide on the Reapers, so it's used right.

Then I misunderstood you, sorry for that. Yes, regarding the reapers, it is genocide if you want it that way.

But in my eyes this is justified, the reapers are no equal life. They can't reproduce unless commiting genocide themselves. Shepard said

"This is an abomination. How do we destroy it?"

when he/she first saw the human reaper in ME2, and I totally agree.
Plus, the reapers are always controlled. Reaper kid controls them, the Leviathans control them, Holoshep control them. Another Shepard quote:

"The defining characteristic of organic life is that we think for ourselves - make our own choices"

I can't accept those genocide spaceships as worthy life. Call me a racist now if you want.

EDIT: Look at the term "genocide" itself. It involves "genes". Reapers don't even have those, they have to steal their genes by harvesting other races.

I wont call you racist. Ok, just once "You primitive organics are all racist." I get why people choose it(I can't though because I don't want Geth dead), even though it has a negative side to it like Synthesis(eugenics) and Control(unchecked authority).That's why I like the endings because its not simply "good guys win, bad guys lose"

[DoomsdayDevice]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...
Gavin Archer: This is a hybrid intelligence the likes of which I have never seen. I don't know where the man ends and the machine begins.

Shepard: You should have considered that before you started the experiment.

That's stretching it a bit far imo. That's like Shepard being "like, half robot now" is foreshadowing Synthesis. Technically can, but not intended.

Samara: "If you change who someone is, how they think, you have killed them. They will be something new in the same body."

Samara: "You have not really defeated the enemy if you adopt their methods."

Harbinger:

“Evolution cannot be stopped.”

“They will be as we are.”

“We are your genetic destiny.”

“We are the Harbinger of your ascendance.”

Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 22 octobre 2012 - 04:58 .

[Hanako Ikezawa]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...
Gavin Archer: This is a hybrid intelligence the likes of which I have never seen. I don't know where the man ends and the machine begins.

Shepard: You should have considered that before you started the experiment.

That's stretching it a bit far imo. That's like Shepard being "like, half robot now" is foreshadowing Synthesis. Technically can, but not intended.

Samara: "If you change who someone is, how they think, you have killed them. They will be something new in the same body."

Samara: "You have not really defeated the enemy if you adopt their methods."

Harbinger:

“Evolution cannot be stopped.”

“They will be as we are.”

“We are your genetic destiny.”

“We are the Harbinger of your ascendance.”

Ther you go, bring Harbinger into it. all we need now is Saren Arterius and Kai Leng, and we'll have the entire Synthesis Squad.*patent pending*

Edit: Where does Samara say this?

Modifié par LDS Darth Revan, 22 octobre 2012 - 05:03 .

[Pheonix57]

I'll be honest, I didn't read it all, but I can say that if Saren did make contact with the Catalyst... I don't know. It would be interesting.

"There was one who came before you" would give me chills.

[FlyingSquirrel]

I see very little to suggest that what Saren was attempting in ME1 would have resulted in the type of synthesis we see at the end of ME3 (if chosen).

First of all, the Catalyst's dialogue strongly suggests that at least some of these options were not available until the Crucible was connected to the Citadel and revealed new possibilities. Until that happened, the Catalyst apparently believed that the cycles had to continue. So even if Saren did pursue some sort of organic/synthetic fusion, there's no reason to think it could or would have happened across the galaxy, or that it would have happened without some indoctrination taking place as well.

Second, unless Shepard - who does not believe that any deal with the Reapers will be honored - is just blowing smoke, the strong implication is that Saren is being duped, that the Reapers will remain the ones in control, and that they will eventually dispose of Saren once he's no longer useful.

[Dirgegun]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Tomwew wrote...

ah yes the catalyst's 'final solution' to bring genetic perfection to the galaxy.

terrifying, megalomaniacal, evil ending. give the catalyst a side parting an a bad 'stache and all of a sudden synthesis seems a very familiar concept.

Better than commiting genocide.

Project Overlord:

Gavin Archer: It would be the perfect weapon. -- Victory without casualties!

Gavin Archer: Any war we fight with the Geth will be bloody. I was asked to find a way to avoid that.

Shepard: Who gave you the right to play God?

Gavin Archer: People who were too afraid to make difficult decisions themselves.
When they pray for a miracle, they're really praying for men like me to
make the tough choices. If my work spares a million mothers morning the
loss of a million sons, my conscience will rest easy.

Gavin Archer: Shepard David volunteered to interface with the VI to give it genuine consciousness. Theoretically it should have been safe, but... with artificial intelligence there is no such thing as safe.

Shepard: Then you shouldn't have attempted it.

What do you want me to see in this, because I'm confused about your point in this post?

Quotes from Project Overlord that control/synthesis scenarios are a no-no.

They heavily foreshadow the ending, and show that the desire to have victory without casualties is a road to hell paved with good intentions.

Another quote that supports this:

Shepard: If you'd saved them all, would things have worked out better?
Vega: I... I don't know. I don't think so.
Shepard: The right choice is usually not the easy one.

And if you are going to interface with an artificial intelligence to give it genuine consciousness, you're in for a surprise. If the VI drove Archer insane, what do you think will happen when Shepard interfaces with a Reaper AI?

Just replace David with Shepard in this sentence:

"David volunteered to interface with the VI to give it genuine consciousness. Theoretically it should have been safe, but... with artificial intelligence there is no such thing as safe."

Overlord is heavy foreshadowing against control/synthesis, up to and including the green eyes.

While I agree with everything that was said here, and that there has been hints through out the entire series that have supported destroy as the best ending, I just wanted to point out that Archer was being a lying cuss when he said David volunteered. That was especially obvious when Shepard is fed that vision of David with the Geth. David didn't volunteer for the project and he wasn't driven insane by it, instead Archer took advantage of his autistic brother and sacrificed him to the project because of his savant syndrome.  

[Seival]

starlitegirlx wrote...

Seival wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...

Seival wrote...

Nazara could be repurposed before to be used as a Crucible analogy.

Appreciate the thought in this, but ^^^^ no.

Why not?

Nazara could destroy the entire Citadel fleet alone. And it had Geth fleet on its side. Why not destroy all enemies first, and only after that go inside the Citadel without any risk? Nazara clearly didn't have to hurry if the task was only to retake the Citadel, killing everyone who will dare to oppose.

Maybe Catalyst wanted to minimize Citadel Fleet casualties, because it wanted to perform Synthesis? If Nazara attacked alone, it would face heavy resistance, and have to destroy each ship on its way. But with the Geth on its side Nazara was able to go directly to the Citadel without need to use its devastating weapons. Citadel Fleet casualties because of Geth fleet would be noticable, but not dire, if the initial plan would work. After taking some casualties the Citadel Fleet would just retreat, and a lot of people would be saved. Catalyst and Saren would perform the Synthesis, and the organic-vs-synthetic problem would be solved...

...But when plan was about to work, Aliance reinforcements arrived. This is were the mess began. Nazara even had to use its weapons eventually. If not that reinforcements, Geth maybe wouldn't even try to finish off Destiny Ascension, but rather let it go heavily damaged.



Speculation? We know almost nothing about what exactly happened on the enemy side in ME1. So, I guess this is not just speculation, but rather an attempt to investigate.

We KNOW sovereign was going to let the reapers come rolling through to start the invasion and harvest, and we know that saren was willing to do whatever it took to survive and was also indoctrinated until the very end if you get him to kill himself. Out of the indoctrination, these people choose death (like Time in ME3) because they realize what a mess they made of everything and cannot live with it.

There is zero evidence to support that saren was going to perform synthesis. The variables had not changed yet. They needed the crucible. Didn't the brat say that? It was the crucible that forced the variables to change, but then again the brat lies. Either way, the only information we have at that point is that the reapers are about to come rolling through from dark space to harvest the galaxy. Nothing more was given. Saren said that we needed to be tools that show our usefulness. At that point, harvesting was the usefulness. Otherwise the would have done synthesis to some previous civilization.

As admiral hackett says - dead reapers is how we win this. Anything else is not a win. Not winning means that reapers get to do whatever they want with us which we've seen as harvesting and turning us into insidious creatures of destruction in ME3. In ME1 we did not see that but we did see that Saren who became indoctrinated was willing to sacrafice the galaxy to save himself. He was willing to be a tool. If he was going to try to save others and perform synthesis, then the ramifications of that are that the galaxy is going to be forced into being useful tools which equals collectors and reaper ground forces as seen in ME2 and ME3.

And how exactly do we know that? We only know that there was a conflict. We know that Saren hates humans and don't like to talk much in general. We know almost nothing about what happened on the enemy side, or how exactly the conflict would ended if Saren wasn't interrupted.

There is zero evidence to support that Saren and Catalyst weren't going to perform Synthesis. But there are some clues which suggest that Synthesis could be the initial Catalyst's plan.

Admiral Hackett (as well, as many other people) had too short-sighted opinion on the Reapers. Why? Because just like many others he knows nothing about the Reapers...

..."When fire burns, is it in conflict?" I don't think so. Reapers are not evil machines. They are a tool designed to preserve the balance. A temporary solution, but "There was no mistake. It still serves it purpose". Catalyst only performed Cycle after Cycle to find the permanent solution. And it looks like Synthesis is the only possible permanent solution.

Modifié par Seival, 22 octobre 2012 - 09:08 .

[toddx77]

starlitegirlx wrote...

toddx77 wrote...

A Bethesda Fan wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Oh look, Project Overlord tells you that control/synthesis are a no-no.

Gavin Archer: David volunteered to interface with the VI to give it genuine consciousness. Theoretically it should have been safe, but... with artificial intelligence there is no such thing as safe.

Shepard: Then you shouldn't have attempted it.

Just replace David with Shepard.

Gavin Archer: It would be the perfect weapon. -- Victory without casualties!

No ending foreshadowing here, nosirree.

Gavin Archer: Any war we fight with the Geth will be bloody. I was asked to find a way to avoid that.

Shepard: Who gave you the right to play God?

Gavin Archer: People who were too afraid to make difficult decisions themselves. When they pray for a miracle, they're really praying for men like me to make the tough choices. If my work spares a million mothers morning the loss of a million sons, my conscience will rest easy.

Yeah.

Great examples, control and synthesis people can't read this and think they made the right decision.

I read it and still think Synthesis was the right descesion.  By synthesizing all all organics and synthetics, organics gain synthetic abilites and synthetics are able to better understand organics a win/win.  The reapers stop trying to harvest all organics, which I admit doesn't really make a lot of sense but I figure with the lines of synthetics and organics so blurred now and everyone in the galaxy sharing the same DNA the Reapers maybe saw everyone else the same as they are.  Finally everyone gets all the knowledge of all the past civilizations that have been harvested.  So basically everyone now has more advanced genes, more knowledge than ever before, and the Reapers working with us.  It's like Kai Lang said "We evolve or we die".

You just used crazy evil Kai Leng as your justification? Seriously? We all saw what he evolved into just as we saw what Tim and his tools evolved into. That's what you get when you screw with nature. Forcing genetic modification at the level of what was done to the protheans on the collector ship (because that was the reapers who did that) is a horrific choice. Sure, BW made it look pretty to appease those who chose synthesis and need to feel right about it, but throughout the trilogy we have seen what forced modification does to species. Look at those reaper forces. Disgusting. Look at saren - he was synthesis and became a harbinger tool tha was some hideous leapfrog lazer spitting death machine. Frankly, the way BW makes synthesis look after all the information gathered along the way on what toying and meddling with evolution does (heck, even the protheans messing with the asari is an example of that as they just became all about wanting to hoarde power and they also were a lawless society filled with gangs and dancers and contracts that screw people), there's no way anyone can look at synthesis with all that information at hand and think it's a good thing or that it's not going to evolve into something insidious at some point. Furthermore, giving the reapers what they want after what they have done to the galaxy for millions of years seems utterly insane. Synthesis is letting the reapers win. Nothing more. And at the cost of the galaxy that is now filled with unknowns except if you were paying attention during the first two games you've realize it was the worst of all the choices. Meddling and controlling things at that level never goes well. And after synthesis you can't fix it or go back. It's done. Galaxy screwed.

I am not denying that Kai Lang and Cerberus are evil but there are going to be bad apples.  While TIM is no hero either he did have a point.  Remember when he said when the mass relays were first found there were people who were against using them because they were scared what they would find out there?  Also with EDI taking control of EVA's body was the right choice because it was beneficial to her.  You could argue that all the genetic modifcations the reapers did was for indoctronation and all the reaper servants like Saren are deformed because the way reapers "evolve" organics is to be their slaves while the crucibal was different because it used space magic, yes I know space magic is a terrible point to use in my arugment but this is a work of fiction after all.  Doing synthesis may let the reapers win but who cares.  It may be forced modifcation but with the space magic of the crucibal I saw no harm in sythnesis because to me all it did was just upgrade everyone for the better.  I don't see having being upgraded, having the knowledge of all the past cycles, and the reapers now working with us as anything bad.  The way synthesis was portrayed in the exnteded cut ending didn't look bad at all to me.  It appeared life in the galaxy not only went back to normal but everything was better.  

[Seival]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Shepard: If you'd saved them all, would things have worked out better? 
Vega: I... I don't know. I don't think so.
Shepard: The right choice is usually not the easy one.

None of ending choices are easy. Each has its own price, and you lose only by choosing Refusal. Other three choices lead to victory with different consequences. Epilogues show you all of this, and this can't be denied.

There is a problem. Organic-vs-synthetic problem. Super-advanced AI tried to find the permanent solution for millions of years. In each Cycle organics made exactly the same mistakes. History repeated itself over and over again.

Refusal means current Cycle will be no different from each previous one. Destroy means that history will repeat itself again later. Control means that Shepard-Catalyst will initiate Synthesis eventually, because any other solution would be temporary. The original Catalyst obviously tried all possible solutions before, they all were temporary and didn't work. Even Cycled Harvests failed eventually...

...It looks like that in ME Universe all roads of evolution lead to Synthesis. You can delay it, but you can't avoid it. Personally, I prefer to delay it by Control, because in this case Shepard-Catalyst will be able to study Synthesis mechanic more, improve it, and apply it in much less chaotic manner.

...We all know that original Catalyst tried Synthesis before, but failed to apply it. And we can't say for sure that ME1 events weren't another attempt to apply Synthesis.

Modifié par Seival, 23 octobre 2012 - 11:29 .

[DoomsdayDevice]

Seival wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Shepard: If you'd saved them all, would things have worked out better? 
Vega: I... I don't know. I don't think so.
Shepard: The right choice is usually not the easy one.

None of ending choices are easy. Each has its own price, and you lose only by choosing Refusal. Other three choices lead to victory with different consequences. Epilogues show you all of this, and this can't be denied.

There is a problem. Organic-vs-synthetic problem. Super-advanced AI tried to find the permanent solution for millions of years. In each Cycle organics made exactly the same mistakes. History repeated itself over and over again.

Refusal means current Cycle will be no different from each previous one. Destroy means that history will repeat itself again later. Control means that Shepard-Catalyst will initiate Synthesis eventually, because any other solution would be temporary. The original Catalyst obviously tried all possible solutions before, they all were temporary and didn't work. Even Cycled Harvests failed eventually...

...It looks like that in ME Universe all roads of evolution lead to Synthesis. You can delay it, but you can't avoid it. Personally, I prefer to delay it by Control, because in this case Shepard-Catalyst will be able to study Synthesis mechanic more, improve it, and apply it in much less chaotic manner.

...We all know that original Catalyst tried Synthesis before, but failed to apply it. And we can't say for sure that ME1 events weren't another attempt to apply Synthesis.

Only destroy is a hard choice. Control/synthesis is victory without casualties.

Epilogues are fake. Bioware have a history of ending games with an illusion and fooling the player. (NWN2 - Hordes of the Underdark, for one, similar plot twists in Jade Empire & KotOR: player turns out to be the bad guy)

The things the 'catalyst' says are entirely inconsistent with what we heard from Sovereign and Harbinger. This is not bad writing, it simply means the child is lying.The whole story of the AI wanting to preserve life is bull. It's just a lie to get you to sympathize with the Reapers.

The only reason the Reapers harvest advanced organics is because they don't want them to develop anything that can threaten their position of power.

They don't wipe out organics altogether because they enjoy the harvest, need us for pro-creation and tribute doesn't flow from dead organics.

Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 23 octobre 2012 - 02:33 .

[Davik Kang]

I think Seival's making a pretty good point tbh. You don't have to agree with it, but it's a pretty strong idea.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Davik Kang wrote...

I think Seival's making a pretty good point tbh. You don't have to agree with it, but it's a pretty strong idea.

Really?

For a guy who bashes IT, Seival sure seems to like living in his self-deluded dream world when it comes to Mass Effect.

[DoomsdayDevice]

Davik Kang wrote...

I think Seival's making a pretty good point tbh. You don't have to agree with it, but it's a pretty strong idea.

It's not a good point, because it's all based upon assuming what the Reaper AI says is true.

The better point is the game establishing that control/synthesis are no-no scenarios, as I demonstrated with the Overlord quotes earlier.

Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 23 octobre 2012 - 03:17 .

[Seival]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Seival wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Shepard: If you'd saved them all, would things have worked out better? 
Vega: I... I don't know. I don't think so.
Shepard: The right choice is usually not the easy one.

None of ending choices are easy. Each has its own price, and you lose only by choosing Refusal. Other three choices lead to victory with different consequences. Epilogues show you all of this, and this can't be denied.

There is a problem. Organic-vs-synthetic problem. Super-advanced AI tried to find the permanent solution for millions of years. In each Cycle organics made exactly the same mistakes. History repeated itself over and over again.

Refusal means current Cycle will be no different from each previous one. Destroy means that history will repeat itself again later. Control means that Shepard-Catalyst will initiate Synthesis eventually, because any other solution would be temporary. The original Catalyst obviously tried all possible solutions before, they all were temporary and didn't work. Even Cycled Harvests failed eventually...

...It looks like that in ME Universe all roads of evolution lead to Synthesis. You can delay it, but you can't avoid it. Personally, I prefer to delay it by Control, because in this case Shepard-Catalyst will be able to study Synthesis mechanic more, improve it, and apply it in much less chaotic manner.

...We all know that original Catalyst tried Synthesis before, but failed to apply it. And we can't say for sure that ME1 events weren't another attempt to apply Synthesis.

Only destroy is a hard choice. Control/synthesis is victory without casualties.

Epilogues are fake. Bioware have a history of ending games with an illusion and fooling the player. (NWN2 - Hordes of the Underdark, for one, similar plot twists in Jade Empire & KotOR: player turns out to be the bad guy)

The things the 'catalyst' says are entirely inconsistent with what we heard from Sovereign and Harbinger. This is not bad writing, it simply means the child is lying.The whole story of the AI wanting to preserve life is bull. It's just a lie to get you to sympathize with the Reapers.

The only reason the Reapers harvest advanced organics is because they don't want them to develop anything that can threaten their position of power.

They don't wipe out organics altogether because they enjoy the harvest, need us for pro-creation and tribute doesn't flow from dead organics.

If you wanna see the endings that way no matter what - it's your opinion. I disagree, but will not argue anymore...

...I just want to remind, that ME Trilogy Epilogues is what we actually see in game, i.e. what was intended by the authors. EC added a lot of explanations, so things that were arguable before - are not arguable now. And the Leviathan DLC gone even further. It explained everything down to the core.