470 réponses à ce sujet

[Seival]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Davik Kang wrote...

I think Seival's making a pretty good point tbh. You don't have to agree with it, but it's a pretty strong idea.

It's not a good point, because it's all based upon assuming what the Reaper AI says is true.

The better point is the game establishing that control/synthesis are no-no scenarios, as I demonstrated with the Overlord quotes earlier.

The Catalyst says the truth, and Leviathan proved that. Besides, Catalyst has no reason to lie, becasue it could just leave Shepard to die if it really wanted to get rid of her. And if you still think that Catalyst lies, keep in mind that according to your own logic it could lie about Destroy as well (which means that Destroy is not possible, and Catalyst just shows you something you wanna believe)...

...And theory discribed in this thread isn't based on lies or speculations. It based only on some clues. Which we physically can't approve of disprove because the game simply has no enough content about enemy activities in ME1.

Modifié par Seival, 24 octobre 2012 - 12:24 .

[Genetic Destiny]

I think TIM would still try to take control, indoctrinated or not.

[DoomsdayDevice]

Seival wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Seival wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Shepard: If you'd saved them all, would things have worked out better? 
Vega: I... I don't know. I don't think so.
Shepard: The right choice is usually not the easy one.

None of ending choices are easy. Each has its own price, and you lose only by choosing Refusal. Other three choices lead to victory with different consequences. Epilogues show you all of this, and this can't be denied.

There is a problem. Organic-vs-synthetic problem. Super-advanced AI tried to find the permanent solution for millions of years. In each Cycle organics made exactly the same mistakes. History repeated itself over and over again.

Refusal means current Cycle will be no different from each previous one. Destroy means that history will repeat itself again later. Control means that Shepard-Catalyst will initiate Synthesis eventually, because any other solution would be temporary. The original Catalyst obviously tried all possible solutions before, they all were temporary and didn't work. Even Cycled Harvests failed eventually...

...It looks like that in ME Universe all roads of evolution lead to Synthesis. You can delay it, but you can't avoid it. Personally, I prefer to delay it by Control, because in this case Shepard-Catalyst will be able to study Synthesis mechanic more, improve it, and apply it in much less chaotic manner.

...We all know that original Catalyst tried Synthesis before, but failed to apply it. And we can't say for sure that ME1 events weren't another attempt to apply Synthesis.

Only destroy is a hard choice. Control/synthesis is victory without casualties.

Epilogues are fake. Bioware have a history of ending games with an illusion and fooling the player. (NWN2 - Hordes of the Underdark, for one, similar plot twists in Jade Empire & KotOR: player turns out to be the bad guy)

The things the 'catalyst' says are entirely inconsistent with what we heard from Sovereign and Harbinger. This is not bad writing, it simply means the child is lying.The whole story of the AI wanting to preserve life is bull. It's just a lie to get you to sympathize with the Reapers.

The only reason the Reapers harvest advanced organics is because they don't want them to develop anything that can threaten their position of power.

They don't wipe out organics altogether because they enjoy the harvest, need us for pro-creation and tribute doesn't flow from dead organics.

If you wanna see the endings that way no matter what - it's your opinion. I disagree, but will not argue anymore...

...I just want to remind, that ME Trilogy Epilogues is what we actually see in game, i.e. what was intended by the authors. EC added a lot of explanations, so things that were arguable before - are not arguable now. And the Leviathan DLC gone even further. It explained everything down to the core.

Damn right did Leviathan explain everything down to the core.

It explains exactly how Reapers can read your mind and build illusions from your memories. They have the abilities the Leviathans have, only they perfected it. This is Bioware telling you that the ending can absolutely be an illusion.

They even threw in a mind control scene that exactly resembles the first moment in the decision chamber.

Shepard is on hands and knees, boy walks over and says 'wake up.'
Shepard is on hands and knees, Ann walks over and says 'breathe.'

"Your mind belongs to me now. Your nature will be revealed to us. Your memories give voice to our words. Accept this."

And then they explain to you how the first true Reaper, the one known as Harbinger, was created from harvested Leviathans.

And now for some speculation. The Leviathans could be slightly twisting the truth as well.

Leviathans controlled organics. These organics started building synthetics. What if these synthetics were built to free themselves from the Leviathans? Think about it, Leviathans can only control organics. The synthetics would then be a threat to the Leviathans' supremacy, instead of to the enthralled races; a weapon against their overlords, one that the Leviathans could not control or enthrall.

So, in order to be able to control both organics and the synthetics they made, the Leviathans created an AI that was meant to be able to control synthetics (thus, preserving organic life!). This AI then turned on them because it wanted to be in control of all. So it harvested the Leviathans, and made the first Reaper: a synthesis of both organic and synthetic parts, able to control both. By 'storing the organic life in Reaper form' it was still fulfilling its purpose, only it was now in control of everything.

The AI could very well be Harbinger, in any case, whether this speculation is true or not. It would make sense; Harbinger was both the first Reaper, and he's the leader.

I'd also like to remind you that the biggest twist of ME2 was that Harbinger turned out to be not the Collector general, but a Reaper, and that he was the puppet master behind everything.

Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 24 octobre 2012 - 12:28 .

[Biotic Sage]

OP: You bring up interesting parallels and ideas. However, to me this is reaching just as much if not moreso than Indoctrination Theory.

Modifié par Biotic Sage, 24 octobre 2012 - 05:59 .

[Demon560]

[quote]Seival wrote...

Let's remember the final minutes of ME1. Geth occupiled the Council Chamber. Saren left all geth behind to finish the job himself. At the same time, Nazara phisically attached itself to the Citadel Tower.

Q: If Saren wanted only to hack the system to allow the Citadel to be used as Mass Relay again, why not send a geth to the console, and go back to try to delay Shepard?
A: Geth couldn't perform the task Saren wanted to perform, so it wasn't just a system hack. It was something more.
[/quote]

Or it needed someone who knew the layout of the Citadel well enough in the current cycle, it did not really like using the Geth since it was disgusted by them and their worship, Saren was its current best agent, and had also enhanced him to take on anyone in their way these enhancements also prevented Saren from backing down/ going against Naz's will, so win for it with Saren.

[quote]Seival wrote...

Q: Something more?
A: Saren was about to "talk" to
the Catalyst, and required some time for that "conversation". But he was
interupted by Shepard's squad, and so had to fight.
[/quote]

So why not just take Saren on the magical elevator or just tell Shep what is really going down, instead of that whole "in a few moments the Naz will have control of the Citadel and the reapers will come", seriously Saren even says over and over how the Reapers are all powerfull and that subjugation/being slaves is better then extinction, not that ascending/becoming like them is the Key, all that reapers are made of species came in ME2, and the whole ascencion thing began.

[quote]Seival wrote...

Q: How did Saren know about the Catalyst?
A: It's possible that the Catalyst recognized Saren's potential, and introduced itself eventually.
[/quote]

Yet he never mentions anything but sovereign and its goals to destroy anyone against them, turn them to zombies and how we should become nothing but their tools to have any chance of survival, not to mention that Saren was looked as nothing more than a tool to be discarded when his usefulness was at an end probably after the reapers pulled through, after all look at what happened to Saren, tried to fight his master(Par/Ren options) and had to blow his brains out to help Shep out.

[quote]Seival wrote...

Q: Saren's potential?
A: Yes, the same as Shepard's potential - an "organic anomaly".
[/quote]


This I can at least agree on that they did view Shep as an anomaly, but Saren was just Naz's puppet and apperantly from what vigil says on illos was not its' first agent, just the most visible.  Though I personally believe that it was more of Sheps continuous interference in Naz's goal and even the conviction he/she showed when talking to Naz directly was what got it interested, after all acquiring allies or pawns for its invasion would benefit it, look at Benezia, Shiala, the Geth, the Krogan, all were just pawns in its game of chest, Shep would be no different then the when it contacted the geth, though Shep being the one who was solely responcible for Naz's destruction obviously would get Harby interested for a time in acquiring such a useful pawn as well, so yeah when your first creation is in love with one person then you/catalyst is a bit interested as well especially if Harby a never shuts up about Shep-
Rannoch Reaper:
"Harbinger speaks of you"

[quote]Seival wrote...

Q: And what was the point of conversation between the Catalyst and Saren?
A: The same as in case of Shepard - try to find the new solution together.
[/quote]


K, but  just going to say that Saren was indoctrinated and full of their/reaper tech, Saren was really close to being a Husk he barely had enough fight in him to shoot himself if you show him the error of his ways, why not just use a husk or just create a bunch of indoctrinated organics, make them into Hybrids like Saren and bring them as spares or why not just capture the Citadel right after they invade in ME3 to get it over with in an instance and explain to anyone who wanted to end the slaughter a way to complete synthesis.

[quote]Seival wrote...

Q: But there is no Crucible. How could they implement the solution?
A:
Nazara connected itself to the Citadel Tower physically. Saren and the
Geth were already inside, so Nazara's goal wasn't system hacking. Reaper
dreadnoughts clearly have overpowered energy sources to generate such
strong shields and mass effect fields. Nazara could be repurposed before
to be used as a Crucible analogy.
[/quote]

So why not just do that again with any other reaper in ME3, to finally complete synthesis using any Organic-Synthetic Hybrid if you already have the means and just require a small component which could be anyone whose part organic and synthetic.

[quote]Seival wrote...

Q: Repurposed when and by who?
A: Before the attack on the Citadel, by Saren, Geth, and Nazara itself.
[/quote]

This is believable, with the centuries and years that it has been their since its call failed to get to the citadel.

[quote]Seival wrote...

Q: But Saren was already indoctrinated. What's next?
A:
Saren clearly wouldn't given Control option, because indoctrinated
persons can't be used as a material to create the new Catalyst. Also
Saren wouldn't given Destory option, because he didn't want to Destroy
the Reapers. So, it's clear that Saren could have only two options
available: sacrifice himself to trigger Synthesis, or refuse.
[/quote]

If their was definitive way to destroy the Reapers pretty sure Saren would have taken, look at what happens when to convince him of how he's helping the reapers, not us and that fighting/working together they could stop the reapers, shoots himself, and this just goes back to why not just use any other husk or create a bunch of them to be used for it.

[quote]Seival wrote...

Interesting, isn't it?... Don't you find Saren's attack on the Citadel
in ME1 similar to Shepard's attack on Earth in ME3? Both gathered allies
to provide a distraction. Both used a "back door" to reach
a "hidden consol". The difference is that Saren failed, when was
interrupted by Shepard. But Shepard didn't fail, when was interrupted by
TIM.
[/quote]

If you pick Synthsis or control, yeah then it is Ironic we become TIM or like the Reapers/ Indoctrinated Saren, trying to fight fate is at least a fun, yet unwinnable battle.

[quote]Seival wrote...

The Illusive Man

Les't remember the final minutes of ME3.
TIM was on the Citadel and tried to mind-control wounded Shepard, but
failed. Shepard managed to deal with TIM, and proceed.

Q: But what if TIM wouldn't fail? What will he do next?
A: Talk to the Catalyst obviously.
[/quote]

Didn't he try to open the Citadell arms if you Renegade him and tell him to hurry up and do it, but the Reapers pretty much prevent him from taking any actuall recourse because they don't want to take a chance on it/the Crucible actually activating and harming them, kind of disproves this assertion.

[quote]Seival wrote...

Q: But TIM was already indoctrinated. What's next?
A: TIM
clearly wouldn't given Control option, because indoctrinated persons
can't be used as a material to create the new Catalyst. Also TIM
wouldn't given Destory option, because he didn't want to Destroy the
Reapers. So, it's clear that TIM could have only two options available:
sacrifice himself to trigger Synthesis, or refuse.
[/quote]

Doesn't mean he wouldn't try, he is afterall one tenacious bastard, but synthesis would be up his ally as well I guess since it advance everyone, though he does have that "If you can't control it destroy it" attitude, Scientist, Miranda, and his whole team being either on the run, indoctrinated, dead, or just useful as they are for the time being.

[quote]Seival wrote...

Both Saren and TIM don't look like refusers. They would sacrifice
themselves for the greater good without any doubts, no matter they are
both pure renegades. So maybe we actually interrupted Synthesis attempt
in ME1 without even knowing about that? And did exactly the same thing
in ME3 in case if Shepard didn't choose Synthesis ending?
[/quote]

This I have to wonder about, while both TIM and Saren were set up to look as though Control and Synthesis were their goals, I have to wonder, were they?  When we talk to TIM or Saren through a purely Paragon(for both) they see they are being controlled and decide to off themselves because their current vision is going to doom the Galaxy and these (atleast i think they do) visions/ideals are from their masters/cotrollers own persepectives.

I have not read the comics myself though i heard a theory a while ago that hypothesis that Saren and TIM's own traits are similar to that of reapers, because they were exposed to a reaper Monolith, this leading to them being purist/racist against other races and the adoptation of reaper ideals, control/indoctrination and Synthesis/reaperfication, but we can't be completely sure if they wouldn't have chosen destroy if they had not been affected by indoctrination, maybe TIM would go through with either control or Synthesis of his own Accord, but Saren was just scared, if their was an sbsoliute way to destroy the reapers, he might have taken it, because he did view them as too powerful and a threat to everyone's existance, but yeah

[quote]Seival wrote...

Maybe Synthesis is indeed the inevitable thing no matter how we
delay it, by Refusing, by Destorying, or by Controlling? The history
will always repeat itself till the final solution will be applied.

P.S. Even considering everything that was said above, I still prefer Control ending ../../../images/forum/emoticons/smile.png
[/quote]

I may dislike the it (with all the glowing eyes, utopia that it creates out of nowhere, the connection it creates with everyon, and the wave of energy that turns every organic into cyborg, even the trees:o) but the way the Catalyst describes it seems more like some people will just decide to turn themselves into cyborgs to better their lives, not that it will occur naturally in nature, evolution never really makes us mechanical or creates cyborg parts for us does it?

Though the whole final step in evolution, i can see how being transformed into a machine/cyborg version of ourselves is the final step, we are perfected in that we are stronger, more intelligent, and probably live longer, kind of like comparing the reapers to the Leviathans, seriously who is more awesome the regular Cthulu or Mecha-cthulu, cause i would go with the latter if they were not complete pawns, but anyways you never know it may be innevitable for a society that is built on improving their everyday lives to one day want to to improve themselves via synthetic implants or some for cyberization-Synthesis.

But you never know, life can be destroyed before anything like this happens, technology used in the wrog hands could lead to something like destroy without the crucible or just simply we continue evolving until we become something greater or just become an Appex race, rule over a certain species, they build synthetics, synthetics rebell, then we build a synthetic to solve that issue and this one Synthesizes us to solve our small problem and we start the cycle all over again, endless posibilities and now my brain is fried:mellow:, but atleast being an immortal dictator has its' perks to being space dust, and no galactic genocide, though i still prefer Destroy, me or anyone else with that power I can not see going so well.

Modifié par Demon560, 24 octobre 2012 - 09:22 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Demon560 wrote...


I may dislike the it (with all the glowing eyes, utopia that it creates out of nowhere, the connection it creates with everyon, and the wave of energy that turns every organic into cyborg, even the trees:o) but the way the Catalyst describes it seems more like some people will just decide to turn themselves into cyborgs to better their lives, not that it will occur naturally in nature, evolution never really makes us mechanical or creates cyborg parts for us does it?

Though the whole final step in evolution, i can see how being transformed into a machine/cyborg version of ourselves is the final step, we are perfected in that we are stronger, more intelligent, and probably live longer, kind of like comparing the reapers to the Leviathans, seriously who is more awesome the regular Cthulu or Mecha-cthulu, cause i would go with the latter if they were not complete pawns, but anyways you never know it may be innevitable for a society that is built on improving their everyday lives to one day want to to improve themselves via synthetic implants or some for cyberization-Synthesis.

But you never know, life can be destroyed before anything like this happens, technology used in the wrog hands could lead to something like destroy without the crucible or just simply we continue evolving until we become something greater or just become an Appex race, rule over a certain species, they build synthetics, synthetics rebell, then we build a synthetic to solve that issue and this one Synthesizes us to solve our small problem and we start the cycle all over again, endless posibilities and now my brain is fried:mellow:, but atleast being an immortal dictator has its' perks to being space dust, and no galactic genocide, though i still prefer Destroy, me or anyone else with that power I can not see going so well.

Quote pyramid snipped ... did not read.

Synthesis turns the entire galaxy into a reaper, my friends. The catalyst is the AI that is the collective of all reapers. To the reapers, the pinnacle of evolution is a reaper. Synthesis is the pinnacle of evolution to the catalyst. That's how it solves its problem by making everything into a reaper, thus ending the need for it to harvest. Life is already preserved. Synthetics become more alive. The alive become more synthetic.

No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No.

Green Kool-Aid.

It is not inevitable.

Aldous Huxley: Brave New World. Read it. Please. That's the meaning of the ending. That's what Casey Hudson wrote on his notes. It's a dystopia. It changes everyone and everything. No one is the same as they were.

The Catalyst .... Kill It.

[Demon560]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Demon560 wrote...


I may dislike the it (with all the glowing eyes, utopia that it creates out of nowhere, the connection it creates with everyon, and the wave of energy that turns every organic into cyborg, even the trees:o) but the way the Catalyst describes it seems more like some people will just decide to turn themselves into cyborgs to better their lives, not that it will occur naturally in nature, evolution never really makes us mechanical or creates cyborg parts for us does it?

Though the whole final step in evolution, i can see how being transformed into a machine/cyborg version of ourselves is the final step, we are perfected in that we are stronger, more intelligent, and probably live longer, kind of like comparing the reapers to the Leviathans, seriously who is more awesome the regular Cthulu or Mecha-cthulu, cause i would go with the latter if they were not complete pawns, but anyways you never know it may be innevitable for a society that is built on improving their everyday lives to one day want to to improve themselves via synthetic implants or some for cyberization-Synthesis.

But you never know, life can be destroyed before anything like this happens, technology used in the wrog hands could lead to something like destroy without the crucible or just simply we continue evolving until we become something greater or just become an Appex race, rule over a certain species, they build synthetics, synthetics rebell, then we build a synthetic to solve that issue and this one Synthesizes us to solve our small problem and we start the cycle all over again, endless posibilities and now my brain is fried:mellow:, but atleast being an immortal dictator has its' perks to being space dust, and no galactic genocide, though i still prefer Destroy, me or anyone else with that power I can not see going so well.

Quote pyramid snipped ... did not read.

Synthesis turns the entire galaxy into a reaper, my friends. The catalyst is the AI that is the collective of all reapers. To the reapers, the pinnacle of evolution is a reaper. Synthesis is the pinnacle of evolution to the catalyst. That's how it solves its problem by making everything into a reaper, thus ending the need for it to harvest. Life is already preserved. Synthetics become more alive. The alive become more synthetic.

No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No.

Green Kool-Aid.

It is not inevitable.

Aldous Huxley: Brave New World. Read it. Please. That's the meaning of the ending. That's what Casey Hudson wrote on his notes. It's a dystopia. It changes everyone and everything. No one is the same as they were.

The Catalyst .... Kill It.

Yeah screwed up my formatting gonna fix, and that future is screwed up, but that was their society my morales and your morales are taught by those all around us, we consider something vile and dispicable, but not other these are based on the way we are taught and those who teach us, if we are taught that something like eating dirt is right at a young is right, and it is a value or idea accepted by all then that's normal, still a screwed up society but it wasn't to them, and that soma was some weird drug.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Shadrach 88 wrote...

I agree that the Reapers quite obviously attempted to stop the Crucible- heck, it's the whole reason they move the Citadel to Earth in the first place. What I disagree with is the notion that the Citadel was somehow changed to counter the Crucible. A highly vulnerable glass tube just seems a laughable means of doing it.

Yeah, remember who we're dealing with:

But he has such a happy face. Look at that smile.

[ghost9191]

yeah or they didn't have the option to destroy because that is the main function of the crucible . the catalyst just prevents it from firing and then uses it as a pwer source

but if you choose destroy then would synthesis be inevitable , not in the same way. by destroy you destroy the catalyst , and the only way to do synthesis on that scale. if in time. as in like 5-10k years , anything short of that is kinda lol because would ppl really be for it so soon after the reaper war. anyway if ppl do achieve synthesis it would be limited to ppl that want it , not to everything in the galaxy . if that is the case than so be it. at least it would be done by choice and what not

[toddx77]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Demon560 wrote...


I may dislike the it (with all the glowing eyes, utopia that it creates out of nowhere, the connection it creates with everyon, and the wave of energy that turns every organic into cyborg, even the trees:o) but the way the Catalyst describes it seems more like some people will just decide to turn themselves into cyborgs to better their lives, not that it will occur naturally in nature, evolution never really makes us mechanical or creates cyborg parts for us does it?

Though the whole final step in evolution, i can see how being transformed into a machine/cyborg version of ourselves is the final step, we are perfected in that we are stronger, more intelligent, and probably live longer, kind of like comparing the reapers to the Leviathans, seriously who is more awesome the regular Cthulu or Mecha-cthulu, cause i would go with the latter if they were not complete pawns, but anyways you never know it may be innevitable for a society that is built on improving their everyday lives to one day want to to improve themselves via synthetic implants or some for cyberization-Synthesis.

But you never know, life can be destroyed before anything like this happens, technology used in the wrog hands could lead to something like destroy without the crucible or just simply we continue evolving until we become something greater or just become an Appex race, rule over a certain species, they build synthetics, synthetics rebell, then we build a synthetic to solve that issue and this one Synthesizes us to solve our small problem and we start the cycle all over again, endless posibilities and now my brain is fried:mellow:, but atleast being an immortal dictator has its' perks to being space dust, and no galactic genocide, though i still prefer Destroy, me or anyone else with that power I can not see going so well.

Quote pyramid snipped ... did not read.

Synthesis turns the entire galaxy into a reaper, my friends. The catalyst is the AI that is the collective of all reapers. To the reapers, the pinnacle of evolution is a reaper. Synthesis is the pinnacle of evolution to the catalyst. That's how it solves its problem by making everything into a reaper, thus ending the need for it to harvest. Life is already preserved. Synthetics become more alive. The alive become more synthetic.

No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No.

Green Kool-Aid.

It is not inevitable.

Aldous Huxley: Brave New World. Read it. Please. That's the meaning of the ending. That's what Casey Hudson wrote on his notes. It's a dystopia. It changes everyone and everything. No one is the same as they were.

The Catalyst .... Kill It.

What is wrong with the whole galaxty becoming reapers if it betters everyone?  It is like Demon560 said it is our final step of evolution and we are perfected.  As long as we are not pawns than I say bring on the green kool aid.

[BerzerkGene]

Seeing as in the refuse end, it apparently happens anyway...yes.

[Seival]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Damn right did Leviathan explain everything down to the core.

It explains exactly how Reapers can read your mind and build illusions from your memories. They have the abilities the Leviathans have, only they perfected it. This is Bioware telling you that the ending can absolutely be an illusion.

They even threw in a mind control scene that exactly resembles the first moment in the decision chamber.

Shepard is on hands and knees, boy walks over and says 'wake up.'
Shepard is on hands and knees, Ann walks over and says 'breathe.'

"Your mind belongs to me now. Your nature will be revealed to us. Your memories give voice to our words. Accept this."

And then they explain to you how the first true Reaper, the one known as Harbinger, was created from harvested Leviathans.

And now for some speculation. The Leviathans could be slightly twisting the truth as well.

Leviathans controlled organics. These organics started building synthetics. What if these synthetics were built to free themselves from the Leviathans? Think about it, Leviathans can only control organics. The synthetics would then be a threat to the Leviathans' supremacy, instead of to the enthralled races; a weapon against their overlords, one that the Leviathans could not control or enthrall.

So, in order to be able to control both organics and the synthetics they made, the Leviathans created an AI that was meant to be able to control synthetics (thus, preserving organic life!). This AI then turned on them because it wanted to be in control of all. So it harvested the Leviathans, and made the first Reaper: a synthesis of both organic and synthetic parts, able to control both. By 'storing the organic life in Reaper form' it was still fulfilling its purpose, only it was now in control of everything.

The AI could very well be Harbinger, in any case, whether this speculation is true or not. It would make sense; Harbinger was both the first Reaper, and he's the leader.

I'd also like to remind you that the biggest twist of ME2 was that Harbinger turned out to be not the Collector general, but a Reaper, and that he was the puppet master behind everything.

Tell me, what is the best way to lure you into a trap?... Exactly - show you something that you desire the most.

Now tell me, what was Shepard's most desired thing, when she faced the Catalyst?... Exactly - she came there to destroy the Reapers. So, by your own logic, Destroy would be the real trap. Show Shepard some delusional "glass tube", tell her that shooting the tube will destroy the Reapers, and give her some false info to create an illusion that she can choose something else...

...But in reality this "glass tube" is actually Shepard's head, so by "shooting the tube" she commits the suicide... That would be the perfect trap... What? You believe that Control and Synthesis are a trap, but refuse to accept that Destroy option is also a trap? <--- Double standards detected.

Leviathan explained very important things. For example it explained that it can respect your opinion, way of thinking, and actions. It could turn Shepard into a puppet, and use to oppose the Reapers. But instead, it let Shepard go, helped Shepard to escape from incoming Reapers, and helped United Fleet forces to attack the Reapers on the Earth. All Leviathans helped without controlling Shepard or anyone in the United Fleet...

...The Catalyst showed the same attitude. Shepard's victory was about convincing the Catalyst that Cycled Harvests were wrong, and could be used only as a temporary solution. In the end the Catalyst helps Shepard willingly. It offers Shepard to find new solution together, instead of leaving Shepard to die. Which means that in the end Catalyst has no reasons to lie, or mind-control Shepard.

Modifié par Seival, 24 octobre 2012 - 08:25 .

[Seival]

Genetic Destiny wrote...

I think TIM would still try to take control, indoctrinated or not.

I think that TIM would have to face the Catalyst first, just like Shepard. But since TIM is indoctrinated and doesn't want to destroy the Reapers - Synthesis and Refusal would be the only options available to him. And TIM doesn't look like refuser, he would definitely choose Synthesis...

...Just like Saren.  

Modifié par Seival, 24 octobre 2012 - 08:31 .

[Seival]

Biotic Sage wrote...

OP: You bring up interesting parallels and ideas. However, to me this is reaching just as much if not moreso than Indoctrination Theory.

There is a big difference between two theories.

...Theory described in OP is based on clues about events which are not implemented in game.
...IT is based on assumption that part of implemented game content is fake.

I will never base anything on assumption that BioWare lied, because they didn't.

Modifié par Seival, 24 octobre 2012 - 11:22 .

[Davik Kang]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...
It's not a good point, because it's all based upon assuming what the Reaper AI says is true.

The better point is the game establishing that control/synthesis are no-no scenarios, as I demonstrated with the Overlord quotes earlier.

You don't have to agree with a point to make it a good one.  There's a lot of stuff in this thread, but the overall idea that Synthesis is inevitable is an interesting one within the game and outside of it.  It's an idea that the game posits.  You may think it's wrong - I certainly hope it's wrong - but that doesn't make it a bad point.

I think the reason we disagree here is because we're looking at two very different aspects of the OP.

[Seival]

A Bethesda Fan wrote...

Seival wrote...


There is a big difference between two theories.
...Theory described in OP is based on clues about events which are not implemented in game.

I think the difference is one is a theory on the ending and the other is cute fan fiction.

Theory described in OP is no more fan-fiction than IT. Any fan-fiction can be called an interpretation of game's lore. No matter if the interpretation is based on actual game events, or on some clues about some big mistery.

...If game-over screen appears, we can't find out for sure what happened next, we can only make assumptions. 
...If game doesn't show something particular that happened on enemy side, then we can use some clues to try to assume what happened.

Modifié par Seival, 25 octobre 2012 - 12:16 .

[DoomsdayDevice]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

I agree with it foreshadowing Control(this is Cerberus afterall) but I don't see the Synthesis reference in Project Overlord.

[Rynocerous]

I've never really understood why people keep conflating "synthesis" with "indoctrination" and what was going on with Saren.

The Reapers (if you believe that crap the StarRunt throws at you) only want to stop the destruction of organics by synthetics. Fine. Again, it comes down to the concept that the Reapers believe their solution is the best one, and are CLEARLY not looking for alternatives Nor is StarRunt, til you show up.

Nazara implanted Saren with cybernetics to control him, to reinforce his belief. That isn't synthesis.

If someone can make a coherent argument about why PLANTS would be included into synthesis if the end result is just indoctronation and/or control by Reapers, it would be appreciated.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

I agree with it foreshadowing Control(this is Cerberus afterall) but I don't see the Synthesis reference in Project Overlord.

You know, of all the times I played ME2 I never saw my Shepard's eyes glow in Overlord. I always wear a fullface helmet, so thanks for pointing this out DoomsdayDevice.
I still believe they were only intentionally referencing Control in Overlord.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

A Bethesda Fan wrote...

Seival wrote...

A Bethesda Fan wrote...

Seival wrote...


There is a big difference between two theories.
...Theory described in OP is based on clues about events which are not implemented in game.

I think the difference is one is a theory on the ending and the other is cute fan fiction.

Theory described in OP is no more fan-fiction than IT. Any fan-fiction can be called an interpretation of game's lore. No matter if the interpretation is based on actual game events, or on some clues about some big mistery.

...If game-over screen appears, we can't find out for sure what happened next, we can only make assumptions. 
...If game doesn't show something particular that happened on enemy side, then we can use some clues to try to assume what happened.

I fail to see exactly how yours is anything other than pure fan fiction.
You're basically saying everything that we thought was happening didn't happen that way.
Instead it happened the other way despite no evidence to pointing it in that direction.

I can't see the theory part of it.

At least with IT there is reason to justify it as a theory and not fan fiction as nothing has been set in stone with the ending.
It is a theory on what actually happened, nothing disapproves it.

Your's however is nothing but pure fan fiction to link ME1 to ME3 in an illogical way.

A theory is only a theory if it can be tested, which IT cannot. So IT is just as much a hypothesis as this thread.

[Seival]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

I agree with it foreshadowing Control(this is Cerberus afterall) but I don't see the Synthesis reference in Project Overlord.

*image*

As I explained several pages before, Control and Overlord are completely different concepts. Control is the Catalyst's reconstruction based on Shepard's personality and memories, and Overlord is an attempt to link living human brain to AI.

Green eyes in Overlord have nothing to do with the Synthesis, because Shepard DNA wasn't altered... Shepard has green eyes in From Ashes (while watching Prothean records). This also has nothing to do with the Synthesis.

[Seival]

A Bethesda Fan wrote...

Seival wrote...

A Bethesda Fan wrote...

Seival wrote...


There is a big difference between two theories.
...Theory described in OP is based on clues about events which are not implemented in game.

I think the difference is one is a theory on the ending and the other is cute fan fiction.

Theory described in OP is no more fan-fiction than IT. Any fan-fiction can be called an interpretation of game's lore. No matter if the interpretation is based on actual game events, or on some clues about some big mistery.

...If game-over screen appears, we can't find out for sure what happened next, we can only make assumptions. 
...If game doesn't show something particular that happened on enemy side, then we can use some clues to try to assume what happened.

I fail to see exactly how yours is anything other than pure fan fiction.
You're basically saying everything that we thought was happening didn't happen that way.
Instead it happened the other way despite no evidence to pointing it in that direction.

I can't see the theory part of it.

At least with IT there is reason to justify it as a theory and not fan fiction as nothing has been set in stone with the ending.
It is a theory on what actually happened, nothing disapproves it.

Your's however is nothing but pure fan fiction to link ME1 to ME3 in an illogical way.

Looks like you didn't read the OP carefully enough. The theory isn't based on denying any game events. Example:

We thought that Nazara was going to summon the entire Reaper Fleet to start a new harvest. But where is a proof for that? Can you help Saren and see what will happen? No, you can't. Can you die to see what would happen next in this case? No, you can't. You can't proceed farther than game-over screen in case of critical mission failure.

What we thought enemy wanted to do doesn't mean enemy really wanted to do that. And OP theory can't be approved or disproved, unless we will have more content about what exactly happened on the enemy side.

Modifié par Seival, 25 octobre 2012 - 11:14 .

[drgSebi]

Sovereign wanted to activate the Citadel's relay functions from Dark Space, not activate a synthesis switch. Sovereign basically wanted to chose a Destroy Ending (destroy us as opposed to us destroying them), what Saren wanted is irrelevant, because even if he did wanted Synthesis, it wouldn't have been his decision to make.