470 réponses à ce sujet

[shodiswe]

Saren could never have given us the Synthesis ending, it was an empty promice used to control him through indoctrination. Saren had no Crucible therefor that solution was not available, just another wave of cleaning the petridish for the next cycle.

Synthesis might have been the Catalysts goal as Saren was told but it would never have been possible to deliver it at that point in time, therefor just another dead cycle before someone breaks the cycle. What commes after the cycles remains to be seen, there will always be new challenges.

[dorktainian]

how can Synthesis be inevitable?

No....Just No. Synthesis is just lame on so many levels.

Sovereign wanted to destroy......tick.
Saren wanted Synthesis.....tick
TIM wanted control.......tick


Maybe the correct choice is not to choose at all.


Now get the hell out of my galaxy.

[Seival]

drgSebi wrote...

Sovereign wanted to activate the Citadel's relay functions from Dark Space, not activate a synthesis switch. Sovereign basically wanted to chose a Destroy Ending (destroy us as opposed to us destroying them), what Saren wanted is irrelevant, because even if he did wanted Synthesis, it wouldn't have been his decision to make.

Summoning all Reapers from the Dark Space to Synthesize them too makes sence.

In ME3 we have a proof that Catalyst isn't ignoring all lesser beings and their actions by default. Saren could be the first organic anomaly Catalyst encountered, while TIM and Shepard could be other two organic anomalies. Anomalies, required to perform Synthesis successfuly.

[GimmeDaGun]

A Bethesda Fan wrote...

Seival wrote...

We thought that Nazara was going to summon the entire Reaper Fleet to start a new harvest. But where is a proof for that?

He said he will use the citadel relay to darken the skies of all our worlds.

Can you help Saren and see what will happen? No, you can't. Can you die to see what would happen next in this case? No, you can't. You can't proceed farther than game-over screen in case of critical mission failure.

Help Saren do what?
Saren was just giving the controls to Sovereign, Sovereign was the one controlling Saren and he was quite clearly too strong for Saren.
You would only have been helping Sovereign by helping Saren and Sovereign made it clear we were to be exterminated and every world will have it skies darkened by Reapers.

What we thought enemy wanted to do doesn't mean enemy really wanted to do that. And OP theory can't be approved or disproved, unless we will have more content about what exactly happened on the enemy side.

I disapprove it here and now.
It is a silly attempt at making the plot seem better connected than what it actually was.
It is pure fan fiction and it does not belong on this forum.

What does or does not belong on these forums is thankfully not up to you my dear friend. If it can bare your constant ranting and arrogant remarks (like the one above) it can also bare the views of people on the ME lore and story too, be it filled up with subjective interpretation (I have the impression you kind of lack the ability to do that) and some added fan fiction or not. 

Modifié par GimmeDaGun, 25 octobre 2012 - 01:11 .

[GimmeDaGun]

A Bethesda Fan wrote...

GimmeDaGun wrote...

What's does or does not belong on these forums is thankfully not up to you my dear friend. If it can bare your constant ranting and arrogant remarks (like the one above) it can also bare the views of people on the ME lore and story too, be it filled up with subjective interpretation (I have an impression you kind of lack the ability to do that) and some added fan fiction or not. 

To find this to be something other than pure fan fiction(fan fiction isn't allowed) is most illogical.
And I recommend you play ME1 again before you post incorrect views again, perhaps ME3 has clouded your memory or perhaps you never even played ME1, either way you need to listen carefully to the plot this time.

Aha... You like cookies too? Here's one!...Catch it!

Modifié par GimmeDaGun, 25 octobre 2012 - 01:11 .

[DoomsdayDevice]

Rynocerous wrote...

I've never really understood why people keep conflating "synthesis" with "indoctrination" and what was going on with Saren.

The Reapers (if you believe that crap the StarRunt throws at you) only want to stop the destruction of organics by synthetics. Fine. Again, it comes down to the concept that the Reapers believe their solution is the best one, and are CLEARLY not looking for alternatives Nor is StarRunt, til you show up.

Nazara implanted Saren with cybernetics to control him, to reinforce his belief. That isn't synthesis.

If someone can make a coherent argument about why PLANTS would be included into synthesis if the end result is just indoctronation and/or control by Reapers, it would be appreciated.

Okay, here we go.

I don't believe the child because he is

1. A Reaper AI
2. Saying things that are inconsistent with what we know about the Reapers;

Sovereign was always going on about the superiority of the Reapers, and being the pinnacle of evolution, and Harbinger was always saying how the organics' fate was unavoidable: that we will 'ascend', that we will 'embrace perfection', that the Reapers are our genetic destiny, that 'we will be as they are.', etcetera.

We know for a fact that the Reapers are a synthesis of organics and synthetics. They're part organic, part machine. They 'preserve' the minds and memories of organics in their form. When they harvest organics to build a new Reaper, they think of this as letting them ascend to become the pinnacle of evolution.

Now when the Reaper AI speaks of synthesis, he says ""Organics will be perfected by integrating fully with synthetic technology. Synthetics, in turn, will finally have full understanding of organics".

Notice how he doesn't say synthetics will become partly organic or that synthetics will get organic DNA or something along those lines. That wouldn't make sense anyway, because synthetics don't have DNA. That is why the whole 'a new DNA' is nonsense, because machines don't have DNA to begin with.

So, essentially what he's saying is that we will be fully integrated with synthetic technology. So, we will be upgraded with tech.

What that reminds me of, is Mordin's analysis of the Collectors:

Mordin: "Reapers added tech to compensate. Mental capacity almost gone, replaced by overworked sensory input, transfers. Transmitting data to masters. No glands, replaced by tech. No digestive system, replaced by tech. No soul, replaced by tech. Whatever they were, gone forever. Understand now? No art, no culture, closer to husks than slaves, tools for Reapers. Protheans dead, Collectors just final insult."

Also:

Mordin: "Disrupts socio-technological balance. All scientific advancement due to intellegence overcoming, compensating, for limitations. Can't carry a load, so invent wheel. Can't catch food, so invent spear. Limitations. No limitations, no advancement. No advancement, culture stagnates. Works other way too. Advancement before culture is ready. Disastrous."

As for Saren, he is another example of someone who was upgraded with Reaper tech. Let's take a look at how he feels about that:

Shepard: Sovereign's controlling you through your implants, don't you see that?

Saren: The relationship is symbiotic, organic and machine intertwined, a union of flesh and steel, the strengths of both, the weaknesses of neither! I am a vision of the future, Shepard, the evolution of all organic life. This is our destiny. Join Sovereign, and experience a true rebirth.

Now, seeing as the child is advocating synthesis as the final evolution of life, you should be able to see where I'm going with this.

The Reapers are synthesis themselves. They consider themselves the pinnacle of evolution (Sovereign's words). they think that all organics should embrace this genetic destiny, this state of perfection. Saren, who was so indoctrinated that he had himself implanted with Reaper tech, considered himself to be the pinnacle of evolution, and advocated that all organic life should become like this.

The Reaper AI is simply screwing with your mind. He is presenting the options to you in a more favourable light. But the consequences will be reversed.

In reality, he is asking you if you want to be

1. Controlled; indoctrinated, a sleeper agent for the Reapers, something along those lines
2. Synthesized; like the Collectors, or even 'ascending' to Reaper status, to be preserved in Reaper form.
3. Destroyed.

Harbinger: "The outcome is inevitable. They will succumb (ctrl) and ascend (synth)... or they will be annihilated. (destroy)"

Yes, that's right, destroy is a trap as well. But here's the thing. Destroy is the least favourable to the Reapers, because you would be useful to them in the other two options.

If you choose to destroy the Reapers (because that is what Shepard chooses - (s)he has no idea the consequences will be reversed), you stick to your original plan: to destroy the Reapers. You do not go along willingly with the options suggested by the Reapers. In other words: you resist the indoctrination. So the Reapers have no other choice than to destroy your mind, because you are still a threat to them. However, in high EMS, Shepard will survive this, because (s)he is extremely strong willed, as illustrated by all the war assets you brought together to defeat the Reapers.

As for the the three epilogues, they are illusions created by the Reapers. All of that is happening inside your mind, even the destroy ending. The Reapers are just letting you think you won.

The reason I think this is because of the writers notes in the Final Hours:

It says: Endings > How do they feel? Brave New World + End of the first Matrix.

Now, Brave New World is a book about a dystopian society in which everything seems perfect, but it's all just a fabricated state of being, an illusion. People are just thinking they are happy, but they can't perceive their own reality.

The Matrix is a movie about much the same thing: people living in an illusion created by machines. The first Matrix failed because there was no choice involved, so the machines added the illusion of choice. But underlying the illusion was a real choice: to accept the Matrix or to rebel against the machines.

Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 25 octobre 2012 - 02:10 .

[Steelcan]

Are you seriously arguing if Sovereign wanted to open the Citadel relay to let the reapers in?
There is no argument here, he wanted to open the relay and start the harvest

Modifié par Steelcan, 25 octobre 2012 - 02:21 .

[Unschuld]

DoomsdayDevice, that was excellent.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...
Okay, here we go.

I don't believe the child because he is

1. A Reaper AI
2. Saying things that are inconsistent with what we know about the Reapers;

Sovereign was always going on about the superiority of the Reapers, and being the pinnacle of evolution, and Harbinger was always saying how the organics' fate was unavoidable: that we will 'ascend', that we will 'embrace perfection', that the Reapers are our genetic destiny, that 'we will be as they are.', etcetera.

We know for a fact that the Reapers are a synthesis of organics and synthetics. They're part organic, part machine. They 'preserve' the minds and memories of organics in their form. When they harvest organics to build a new Reaper, they think of this as letting them ascend to become the pinnacle of evolution.

Now when the Reaper AI speaks of synthesis, he says ""Organics will be perfected by integrating fully with synthetic technology. Synthetics, in turn, will finally have full understanding of organics".

Notice how he doesn't say synthetics will become partly organic or that synthetics will get organic DNA or something along those lines. That wouldn't make sense anyway, because synthetics don't have DNA. That is why the whole 'a new DNA' is nonsense, because machines don't have DNA to begin with.

So, essentially what he's saying is that we will be fully integrated with synthetic technology. So, we will be upgraded with tech.

What that reminds me of, is Mordin's analysis of the Collectors:

Mordin: "Reapers added tech to compensate. Mental capacity almost gone, replaced by overworked sensory input, transfers. Transmitting data to masters. No glands, replaced by tech. No digestive system, replaced by tech. No soul, replaced by tech. Whatever they were, gone forever. Understand now? No art, no culture, closer to husks than slaves, tools for Reapers. Protheans dead, Collectors just final insult."

Also:

Mordin: "Disrupts socio-technological balance. All scientific advancement due to intellegence overcoming, compensating, for limitations. Can't carry a load, so invent wheel. Can't catch food, so invent spear. Limitations. No limitations, no advancement. No advancement, culture stagnates. Works other way too. Advancement before culture is ready. Disastrous."

As for Saren, he is another example of someone who was upgraded with Reaper tech. Let's take a look at how he feels about that:

Shepard: Sovereign's controlling you through your implants, don't you see that?

Saren: The relationship is symbiotic, organic and machine intertwined, a union of flesh and steel, the strengths of both, the weaknesses of neither! I am a vision of the future, Shepard, the evolution of all organic life. This is our destiny. Join Sovereign, and experience a true rebirth.

Now, seeing as the child is advocating synthesis as the final evolution of life, you should be able to see where I'm going with this.

The Reapers are synthesis themselves. They consider themselves the pinnacle of evolution (Sovereign's words). they think that all organics should embrace this genetic destiny, this state of perfection. Saren, who was so indoctrinated that he had himself implanted with Reaper tech, considered himself to be the pinnacle of evolution, and advocated that all organic life should become like this.

The Reaper AI is simply screwing with your mind. He is presenting the options to you in a more favourable light. But the consequences will be reversed.

In reality, he is asking you if you want to be

1. Controlled; indoctrinated, a sleeper agent for the Reapers, something along those lines
2. Synthesized; like the Collectors, or even 'ascending' to Reaper status, to be preserved in Reaper form.
3. Destroyed.

Harbinger: "The outcome is inevitable. They will succumb (ctrl) and ascend (synth)... or they will be annihilated. (destroy)"

Yes, that's right, destroy is a trap as well. But here's the thing. Destroy is the least favourable to the Reapers, because you would be useful to them in the other two options.

If you choose to destroy the Reapers (because that is what Shepard chooses - (s)he has no idea the consequences will be reversed), you stick to your original plan: to destroy the Reapers. You do not go along willingly with the options suggested by the Reapers. In other words: you resist the indoctrination. So the Reapers have no other choice than to destroy your mind, because you are still a threat to them. However, in high EMS, Shepard will survive this, because (s)he is extremely strong willed, as illustrated by all the war assets you brought together to defeat the Reapers.

As for the the three epilogues, they are illusions created by the Reapers. All of that is happening inside your mind, even the destroy ending. The Reapers are just letting you think you won.

The reason I think this is because of the writers notes in the Final Hours:

It says: Endings > How do they feel? Brave New World + End of the first Matrix.

Now, Brave New World is a book about a dystopian society in which everything seems perfect, but it's all just a fabricated state of being, an illusion. People are just thinking they are happy, but they can't perceive their own reality.

The Matrix is a movie about much the same thing: people living in an illusion created by machines. The first Matrix failed because there was no choice involved, so the machines added the illusion of choice. But underlying the illusion was a real choice: to accept the Matrix or to rebel against the machines.

While well put for an Indoctrination Hypothesis, I have a question: Why would Bioware take months, pushing all other DLC aside until completed, to create an expansion on what are only "illusions"?

[DoomsdayDevice]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...
Okay, here we go.

I don't believe the child because he is

1. A Reaper AI
2. Saying things that are inconsistent with what we know about the Reapers;

Sovereign was always going on about the superiority of the Reapers, and being the pinnacle of evolution, and Harbinger was always saying how the organics' fate was unavoidable: that we will 'ascend', that we will 'embrace perfection', that the Reapers are our genetic destiny, that 'we will be as they are.', etcetera.

We know for a fact that the Reapers are a synthesis of organics and synthetics. They're part organic, part machine. They 'preserve' the minds and memories of organics in their form. When they harvest organics to build a new Reaper, they think of this as letting them ascend to become the pinnacle of evolution.

Now when the Reaper AI speaks of synthesis, he says ""Organics will be perfected by integrating fully with synthetic technology. Synthetics, in turn, will finally have full understanding of organics".

Notice how he doesn't say synthetics will become partly organic or that synthetics will get organic DNA or something along those lines. That wouldn't make sense anyway, because synthetics don't have DNA. That is why the whole 'a new DNA' is nonsense, because machines don't have DNA to begin with.

So, essentially what he's saying is that we will be fully integrated with synthetic technology. So, we will be upgraded with tech.

What that reminds me of, is Mordin's analysis of the Collectors:

Mordin: "Reapers added tech to compensate. Mental capacity almost gone, replaced by overworked sensory input, transfers. Transmitting data to masters. No glands, replaced by tech. No digestive system, replaced by tech. No soul, replaced by tech. Whatever they were, gone forever. Understand now? No art, no culture, closer to husks than slaves, tools for Reapers. Protheans dead, Collectors just final insult."

Also:

Mordin: "Disrupts socio-technological balance. All scientific advancement due to intellegence overcoming, compensating, for limitations. Can't carry a load, so invent wheel. Can't catch food, so invent spear. Limitations. No limitations, no advancement. No advancement, culture stagnates. Works other way too. Advancement before culture is ready. Disastrous."

As for Saren, he is another example of someone who was upgraded with Reaper tech. Let's take a look at how he feels about that:

Shepard: Sovereign's controlling you through your implants, don't you see that?

Saren: The relationship is symbiotic, organic and machine intertwined, a union of flesh and steel, the strengths of both, the weaknesses of neither! I am a vision of the future, Shepard, the evolution of all organic life. This is our destiny. Join Sovereign, and experience a true rebirth.

Now, seeing as the child is advocating synthesis as the final evolution of life, you should be able to see where I'm going with this.

The Reapers are synthesis themselves. They consider themselves the pinnacle of evolution (Sovereign's words). they think that all organics should embrace this genetic destiny, this state of perfection. Saren, who was so indoctrinated that he had himself implanted with Reaper tech, considered himself to be the pinnacle of evolution, and advocated that all organic life should become like this.

The Reaper AI is simply screwing with your mind. He is presenting the options to you in a more favourable light. But the consequences will be reversed.

In reality, he is asking you if you want to be

1. Controlled; indoctrinated, a sleeper agent for the Reapers, something along those lines
2. Synthesized; like the Collectors, or even 'ascending' to Reaper status, to be preserved in Reaper form.
3. Destroyed.

Harbinger: "The outcome is inevitable. They will succumb (ctrl) and ascend (synth)... or they will be annihilated. (destroy)"

Yes, that's right, destroy is a trap as well. But here's the thing. Destroy is the least favourable to the Reapers, because you would be useful to them in the other two options.

If you choose to destroy the Reapers (because that is what Shepard chooses - (s)he has no idea the consequences will be reversed), you stick to your original plan: to destroy the Reapers. You do not go along willingly with the options suggested by the Reapers. In other words: you resist the indoctrination. So the Reapers have no other choice than to destroy your mind, because you are still a threat to them. However, in high EMS, Shepard will survive this, because (s)he is extremely strong willed, as illustrated by all the war assets you brought together to defeat the Reapers.

As for the the three epilogues, they are illusions created by the Reapers. All of that is happening inside your mind, even the destroy ending. The Reapers are just letting you think you won.

The reason I think this is because of the writers notes in the Final Hours:

It says: Endings > How do they feel? Brave New World + End of the first Matrix.

Now, Brave New World is a book about a dystopian society in which everything seems perfect, but it's all just a fabricated state of being, an illusion. People are just thinking they are happy, but they can't perceive their own reality.

The Matrix is a movie about much the same thing: people living in an illusion created by machines. The first Matrix failed because there was no choice involved, so the machines added the illusion of choice. But underlying the illusion was a real choice: to accept the Matrix or to rebel against the machines.

While well put for an Indoctrination Hypothesis, I have a question: Why would Bioware take months, pushing all other DLC aside until completed, to create an expansion on what are only "illusions"?

For obvious reasons: the fans felt like they weren't given enough explanation. Where did my squadmates go? Who or what is this child exactly?

They answered all of these questions, while maintaining their artistic vision of the ending. They even added on to the illusions, but here's the thing:

If you pay attention, there are some very cool subtle hints in the EC.

The soldier, fighting in the streets. In the synthesis and control endings, the sequence is identical: a husk throws himself upon the soldier, he is overcome, and he's losing the fight.

In destroy (and only in destroy), the soldier shoots the husk down. And another one. More husks keep coming, but he takes them out, and keeps fighting, no matter how many are coming.

The subliminal message: you win in destroy, you lose in control/synthesis.

Also, there's no victory cheering in synthesis, which leads me to believe Synthesis is the worst option.

Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 25 octobre 2012 - 03:20 .

[Seival]

A Bethesda Fan wrote...

Seival wrote...

We thought that Nazara was going to summon the entire Reaper Fleet to start a new harvest. But where is a proof for that?

(1) He said he will use the citadel relay to darken the skies of all our worlds.

Can you help Saren and see what will happen? No, you can't. Can you die to see what would happen next in this case? No, you can't. You can't proceed farther than game-over screen in case of critical mission failure.

(2) Help Saren do what?
Saren was just giving the controls to Sovereign, Sovereign was the one controlling Saren and he was quite clearly too strong for Saren.
You would only have been helping Sovereign by helping Saren and Sovereign made it clear we were to be exterminated and every world will have it skies darkened by Reapers.

What we thought enemy wanted to do doesn't mean enemy really wanted to do that. And OP theory can't be approved or disproved, unless we will have more content about what exactly happened on the enemy side.

(3) I disapprove it here and now.
It is a silly attempt at making the plot seem better connected than what it actually was.
It is pure fan fiction and it does not belong on this forum.

(1) It said "our numbers will darken the sky of every world". Which means "there are a lot of Reapers in the Dark Space". This doesn't conflict with the theory, because Nazara didn't say anything like "we will kill you all and make new Reaper ships".

(2) Saren could send geth if the task was just to give control to Nazara. Saren covers geth "hacker", and delays Shepard - that would be much more productive than performing the task himself. Shepard would just have no time to intercept that "hacker". But Saren left all geth units behind and started to perform the task himself. The task required considerable amount of time, and it wasn't just about pressing several buttons or hacking... So, I believe Saren was about to talk to the Catalyst when Shepard interrupted him.

(3) No, you didn't. You simply have no content on which you can base your disapprove... Noone has such content.

Modifié par Seival, 25 octobre 2012 - 07:56 .

[3DandBeyond]

Oh for crying out loud, now Sovereign is used in place of the crucible and Saren is a stand in for Shepard. Give me a break. Interesting, no.

This whole OP is total fabrication.

The content that can be used to distance oneself from this new nonsense can be seen in other threads (crash testing relays, concentration camps for anyone not yet synthesized, and a Shepard/reaper/baby newborn catalyst that maintains a love relationship post-control with Liara. Please, stop imagining things-it hurts.

Why not use the geth?  Because they were not so perfectly under control as was Saren.  The geth worshipped Sovereign, but he had disdain for them, he was insulted by them.  Saren was under his control through indoctrination.  There's nothing to suggest the heretic geth were under his complete control-they followed him.

Synthesis is a joke, is garbage, is not realistic or believable as portrayed.  It is beyond rational intelligent belief.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 25 octobre 2012 - 08:00 .

[Seival]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Oh for crying out loud, now Sovereign is used in place of the crucible and Saren is a stand in for Shepard. Give me a break. Interesting, no.

This whole OP is total fabrication.

The content that can be used to distance oneself from this new nonsense can be seen in other threads (crash testing relays, concentration camps for anyone not yet synthesized, and a Shepard/reaper/baby newborn catalyst that maintains a love relationship post-control with Liara. Please, stop imagining things-it hurts.

Why not use the geth?  Because they were not so perfectly under control as was Saren.  The geth worshipped Sovereign, but he had disdain for them, he was insulted by them.  Saren was under his control through indoctrination.  There's nothing to suggest the heretic geth were under his complete control-they followed him.

Thinking that EDI and Geth survived Destroy is fabrication, not OP.

OP just describes some clues we have about inevitable Synthesis.

EDIT: And you assume that Geth followed Nazara and Saren till the end because... "they were not so perfectly under control"?

Modifié par Seival, 25 octobre 2012 - 08:07 .

[3DandBeyond]

dorktainian wrote...

how can Synthesis be inevitable?

No....Just No. Synthesis is just lame on so many levels.

Sovereign wanted to destroy......tick.
Saren wanted Synthesis.....tick
TIM wanted control.......tick


Maybe the correct choice is not to choose at all.


Now get the hell out of my galaxy.

This makes the most sense.  The kid's purpose is lame.  Leviathan creates an even more contradictory catalyst (the audacity calling something so stupid 'the intelligence').  All Leviathan had to do was tell its thrall races to stop creating killer synthetics.  What the heck was enthrallment for?  But no, old big and stupid had to double down on the idiocy and create the kid who says he's not killing anyone, except he also says he had to destroy his creators.  Um, ok.  And so some think joining organics together with this moronic tech is a good idea?  No, just no.

Yes, get the hell out of my galaxy.

The funny thing is the kid even says his solution will no longer work.  In the face of that if he truly was a logic device, he would stop doing something that no longer works.  The reapers are not solving his problem if they no longer work, so it would be illogical to continue using them.  He would not do so.  Someone with no idea of how logic works created this.  The only logical choice for Shepard would be to do nothing.  And no solution has ever worked-the reapers have never worked since they are not permanent, but nothing is permanent.  The kid says destroy isn't.  But control isn't because the likelihood of the Shepard AI (within this flawed tech infrastructure) becoming just as warped as the kid, is real.  And synthesis doesn't stop anyone from creating fully organic beings (they have a lot of useless knowledge otherwise) and fully functional and dysfunctional synthetics.  If conflict is inevitable, nothing can stop it EVER.

[3DandBeyond]

Seival wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

Oh for crying out loud, now Sovereign is used in place of the crucible and Saren is a stand in for Shepard. Give me a break. Interesting, no.

This whole OP is total fabrication.

The content that can be used to distance oneself from this new nonsense can be seen in other threads (crash testing relays, concentration camps for anyone not yet synthesized, and a Shepard/reaper/baby newborn catalyst that maintains a love relationship post-control with Liara. Please, stop imagining things-it hurts.

Why not use the geth?  Because they were not so perfectly under control as was Saren.  The geth worshipped Sovereign, but he had disdain for them, he was insulted by them.  Saren was under his control through indoctrination.  There's nothing to suggest the heretic geth were under his complete control-they followed him.

Thinking that EDI and Geth survived Destroy is fabrication, not OP.

OP just describes some clues we have about inevitable Synthesis.

EDIT: And you assume that Geth followed Nazara and Saren till the end because... "they were not so perfectly under control"?

Huh?  Who said anything here about EDI and the geth surviving destroy.  If you are taking a cheap shot at my desire for a different ending, that was a request and of course it was fabricated, since it is not in the game.  I've never said it was.  You are trying to say that this is what the game shows and it's kind of silly.

Your OP is complete fabrication, as in not based upon anything shown in the stories.  That's what fabrication means-it's creating something out of your imagination, which is actually sometimes pretty scary.

The heretic geth worshipped Saren.  Ever hear of religion?  There are a lot of people that will follow crazy religious leaders, in say cults, but that does not mean those leaders trust them with important knowledge.  Sovereign could rely on Saren because Sovereign did control him.  Sovereign trusted what he was doing to Saren, but could not trust the geth.  This is all moot, because this is your attempt to make things fit together when they don't.  Sovereign was a reaper and not like the crucible at all. 


The idea that synthesis is inevitable is one of the most laughable things of all.

At this point, given all of the threads you've created, I can only assume you are an extremely young person probably not really old enough to be playing this game.  Sorry, I at first assumed you were an adult.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 25 octobre 2012 - 08:24 .

[3DandBeyond]

@ A Bethesda Fan,

Yeah, the reapers are our friends. Just ignore the people goo over in the corner there. Oh and all the dead bodies on the citadel, just waiting for the keepers to make the goo.

[Seival]

[quote]Demon560 wrote...

[quote]Seival wrote...

Let's remember the final minutes of ME1. Geth occupiled the Council Chamber. Saren left all geth behind to finish the job himself. At the same time, Nazara phisically attached itself to the Citadel Tower.

Q: If Saren wanted only to hack the system to allow the Citadel to be used as Mass Relay again, why not send a geth to the console, and go back to try to delay Shepard?
A: Geth couldn't perform the task Saren wanted to perform, so it wasn't just a system hack. It was something more.
[/quote]

(1) Or it needed someone who knew the layout of the Citadel well enough in the current cycle, it did not really like using the Geth since it was disgusted by them and their worship, Saren was its current best agent, and had also enhanced him to take on anyone in their way these enhancements also prevented Saren from backing down/ going against Naz's will, so win for it with Saren.

[quote]Seival wrote...

Q: Something more?
A: Saren was about to "talk" to
the Catalyst, and required some time for that "conversation". But he was
interupted by Shepard's squad, and so had to fight.
[/quote]

(2) So why not just take Saren on the magical elevator or just tell Shep what is really going down, instead of that whole "in a few moments the Naz will have control of the Citadel and the reapers will come", seriously Saren even says over and over how the Reapers are all powerfull and that subjugation/being slaves is better then extinction, not that ascending/becoming like them is the Key, all that reapers are made of species came in ME2, and the whole ascencion thing began.

[quote]Seival wrote...

Q: How did Saren know about the Catalyst?
A: It's possible that the Catalyst recognized Saren's potential, and introduced itself eventually.
[/quote]

(3) Yet he never mentions anything but sovereign and its goals to destroy anyone against them, turn them to zombies and how we should become nothing but their tools to have any chance of survival, not to mention that Saren was looked as nothing more than a tool to be discarded when his usefulness was at an end probably after the reapers pulled through, after all look at what happened to Saren, tried to fight his master(Par/Ren options) and had to blow his brains out to help Shep out.

[quote]Seival wrote...

Q: Saren's potential?
A: Yes, the same as Shepard's potential - an "organic anomaly".
[/quote]


(4) This I can at least agree on that they did view Shep as an anomaly, but Saren was just Naz's puppet and apperantly from what vigil says on illos was not its' first agent, just the most visible.  Though I personally believe that it was more of Sheps continuous interference in Naz's goal and even the conviction he/she showed when talking to Naz directly was what got it interested, after all acquiring allies or pawns for its invasion would benefit it, look at Benezia, Shiala, the Geth, the Krogan, all were just pawns in its game of chest, Shep would be no different then the when it contacted the geth, though Shep being the one who was solely responcible for Naz's destruction obviously would get Harby interested for a time in acquiring such a useful pawn as well, so yeah when your first creation is in love with one person then you/catalyst is a bit interested as well especially if Harby a never shuts up about Shep-
Rannoch Reaper:
"Harbinger speaks of you"

[quote]Seival wrote...

Q: And what was the point of conversation between the Catalyst and Saren?
A: The same as in case of Shepard - try to find the new solution together.
[/quote]


(5) K, but  just going to say that Saren was indoctrinated and full of their/reaper tech, Saren was really close to being a Husk he barely had enough fight in him to shoot himself if you show him the error of his ways, why not just use a husk or just create a bunch of indoctrinated organics, make them into Hybrids like Saren and bring them as spares or why not just capture the Citadel right after they invade in ME3 to get it over with in an instance and explain to anyone who wanted to end the slaughter a way to complete synthesis.

[quote]Seival wrote...

Q: But there is no Crucible. How could they implement the solution?
A:
Nazara connected itself to the Citadel Tower physically. Saren and the
Geth were already inside, so Nazara's goal wasn't system hacking. Reaper
dreadnoughts clearly have overpowered energy sources to generate such
strong shields and mass effect fields. Nazara could be repurposed before
to be used as a Crucible analogy.
[/quote]

(6) So why not just do that again with any other reaper in ME3, to finally complete synthesis using any Organic-Synthetic Hybrid if you already have the means and just require a small component which could be anyone whose part organic and synthetic.

[quote]Seival wrote...

Q: Repurposed when and by who?
A: Before the attack on the Citadel, by Saren, Geth, and Nazara itself.
[/quote]

This is believable, with the centuries and years that it has been their since its call failed to get to the citadel.

[quote]Seival wrote...

Q: But Saren was already indoctrinated. What's next?
A:
Saren clearly wouldn't given Control option, because indoctrinated
persons can't be used as a material to create the new Catalyst. Also
Saren wouldn't given Destory option, because he didn't want to Destroy
the Reapers. So, it's clear that Saren could have only two options
available: sacrifice himself to trigger Synthesis, or refuse.
[/quote]

(7) If their was definitive way to destroy the Reapers pretty sure Saren would have taken, look at what happens when to convince him of how he's helping the reapers, not us and that fighting/working together they could stop the reapers, shoots himself, and this just goes back to why not just use any other husk or create a bunch of them to be used for it.

[quote]Seival wrote...

Interesting, isn't it?... Don't you find Saren's attack on the Citadel
in ME1 similar to Shepard's attack on Earth in ME3? Both gathered allies
to provide a distraction. Both used a "back door" to reach
a "hidden consol". The difference is that Saren failed, when was
interrupted by Shepard. But Shepard didn't fail, when was interrupted by
TIM.
[/quote]

(8) If you pick Synthsis or control, yeah then it is Ironic we become TIM or like the Reapers/ Indoctrinated Saren, trying to fight fate is at least a fun, yet unwinnable battle.

[quote]Seival wrote...

The Illusive Man

Les't remember the final minutes of ME3.
TIM was on the Citadel and tried to mind-control wounded Shepard, but
failed. Shepard managed to deal with TIM, and proceed.

Q: But what if TIM wouldn't fail? What will he do next?
A: Talk to the Catalyst obviously.
[/quote]

(9) Didn't he try to open the Citadell arms if you Renegade him and tell him to hurry up and do it, but the Reapers pretty much prevent him from taking any actuall recourse because they don't want to take a chance on it/the Crucible actually activating and harming them, kind of disproves this assertion.

[quote]Seival wrote...

Q: But TIM was already indoctrinated. What's next?
A: TIM
clearly wouldn't given Control option, because indoctrinated persons
can't be used as a material to create the new Catalyst. Also TIM
wouldn't given Destory option, because he didn't want to Destroy the
Reapers. So, it's clear that TIM could have only two options available:
sacrifice himself to trigger Synthesis, or refuse.
[/quote]

(10) Doesn't mean he wouldn't try, he is afterall one tenacious bastard, but synthesis would be up his ally as well I guess since it advance everyone, though he does have that "If you can't control it destroy it" attitude, Scientist, Miranda, and his whole team being either on the run, indoctrinated, dead, or just useful as they are for the time being.

[quote]Seival wrote...

Both Saren and TIM don't look like refusers. They would sacrifice
themselves for the greater good without any doubts, no matter they are
both pure renegades. So maybe we actually interrupted Synthesis attempt
in ME1 without even knowing about that? And did exactly the same thing
in ME3 in case if Shepard didn't choose Synthesis ending?
[/quote]

(11) This I have to wonder about, while both TIM and Saren were set up to look as though Control and Synthesis were their goals, I have to wonder, were they?  When we talk to TIM or Saren through a purely Paragon(for both) they see they are being controlled and decide to off themselves because their current vision is going to doom the Galaxy and these (atleast i think they do) visions/ideals are from their masters/cotrollers own persepectives.

I have not read the comics myself though i heard a theory a while ago that hypothesis that Saren and TIM's own traits are similar to that of reapers, because they were exposed to a reaper Monolith, this leading to them being purist/racist against other races and the adoptation of reaper ideals, control/indoctrination and Synthesis/reaperfication, but we can't be completely sure if they wouldn't have chosen destroy if they had not been affected by indoctrination, maybe TIM would go through with either control or Synthesis of his own Accord, but Saren was just scared, if their was an sbsoliute way to destroy the reapers, he might have taken it, because he did view them as too powerful and a threat to everyone's existance, but yeah

[quote]Seival wrote...

Maybe Synthesis is indeed the inevitable thing no matter how we
delay it, by Refusing, by Destorying, or by Controlling? The history
will always repeat itself till the final solution will be applied.

P.S. Even considering everything that was said above, I still prefer Control ending ../../../images/forum/emoticons/smile.png
[/quote]

(12) I may dislike the it (with all the glowing eyes, utopia that it creates out of nowhere, the connection it creates with everyon, and the wave of energy that turns every organic into cyborg, even the trees:o) but the way the Catalyst describes it seems more like some people will just decide to turn themselves into cyborgs to better their lives, not that it will occur naturally in nature, evolution never really makes us mechanical or creates cyborg parts for us does it?

Though the whole final step in evolution, i can see how being transformed into a machine/cyborg version of ourselves is the final step, we are perfected in that we are stronger, more intelligent, and probably live longer, kind of like comparing the reapers to the Leviathans, seriously who is more awesome the regular Cthulu or Mecha-cthulu, cause i would go with the latter if they were not complete pawns, but anyways you never know it may be innevitable for a society that is built on improving their everyday lives to one day want to to improve themselves via synthetic implants or some for cyberization-Synthesis.

But you never know, life can be destroyed before anything like this happens, technology used in the wrog hands could lead to something like destroy without the crucible or just simply we continue evolving until we become something greater or just become an Appex race, rule over a certain species, they build synthetics, synthetics rebell, then we build a synthetic to solve that issue and this one Synthesizes us to solve our small problem and we start the cycle all over again, endless posibilities and now my brain is fried:mellow:, but atleast being an immortal dictator has its' perks to being space dust, and no galactic genocide, though i still prefer Destroy, me or anyone else with that power I can not see going so well.
[/quote]

(1) You mean geth unit was unable to go 100 meters forward alone, because it doesn't know Cytadel's layout?
Saren is indeed the best Catalyst's asset in ME1, that's why it would be more logical for Saren to delay Shepard, and delegate "pressing two buttons on the console or hack" task to the Geth. But Saren prefered to do the task himself, so the task wasn't just about hacking or pressing several buttons.

(2) In ME3 there is no "magical elevator", there is mental conversation with the Catalyst. And it would be the same in case of Saren. And Reaper fleet would arrive indeed, but not for the harvest, but to be Synthesized with everyone else (in Dark Space those Reaper ships are unreachable by the explosions).

(3) And why whould Saren mention any details to the person who would never believe him? And what Saren actually mentioned is that he tries to forge an alliance between organics and Synthetics, which in that context sounds like Synthesis actually.

(4) Vigil's speech can't be used as a proof that Saren wasn't an anomaly like Shepard. Saren was indoctrinated, which means he wouldn't be given Control option. But Saren definitely would be given Synthesis option. This is the only difference in the ending mechanic compared to Shepard.

(5) Because Saren was an organic-anomaly. Only such anomaly can be used to perform Synthesis. And ME3 proved that Catalyst prefers to communicate directly with the ones who really deserve that instead of harvesting them immediately.

(6) Because it required a new organic-anomaly which will want to cooperate. And in the end Catalyst was able to choose between two anomalies in fact: Shepard and TIM.

(7) Doubtful. Also, Saren's body was wasted in the end, remember? No anomaly material left. After the Saren's defeat Catalyst most likely desided to waste Saren's body to get to the second anomaly it found (Shepard) immediately.

(8) Did you ever think that Saren and TIM might be just "renegade protagonists" instead of villains?

(9) The Catalyst just blocked the console to observe Shepard vs TIM situation to determine who of them will prove to be better. After the situation was resolved - Catalyst unlocked the console to let Shepard to open the Citadel.

(10) It's not a matter of Saren's choice. Catalyst would never give Saren Destroy option, because Saren was convinced that Destroying the Reapers isn't the right way. It would only give Saren options in which Saren believes. Just like in case of Shepard.

(11) We can only guess. Game has almost no content about that.

(12) So, basically you are not against inevitable Synthesis?

Modifié par Seival, 25 octobre 2012 - 09:15 .

[Seival]

A Bethesda Fan wrote...

Your extinction is inevitable. We are the end of everything.

Organic civilizations rise, evolve, advance and at the apex of their glory, they are extinguished.

You exist because you allow it, and you will end because we demand it.

The time of your destruction is coming. Our numbers will darken the sky of every world. You cannot escape your doom

As you can see clearly Sovereign just wanted to convert all of us with Synthesis magic.

Your words are as empty as your future. I am the vanguard of your destruction, this… exchange, is over.

Yeah this sounds like a being that intends to "help" us.

I only see that Catalyst threatens his enemy through mobile platform called "Nazara". At that point Catalyst knew almost nothing about Shepard, so it treated her like any obstacle on its way. It was an attempt to look fearsome and scare the enemy. And it can't disprove the theory.

Modifié par Seival, 25 octobre 2012 - 09:33 .

[Seival]

3DandBeyond wrote...

@ A Bethesda Fan,

Yeah, the reapers are our friends. Just ignore the people goo over in the corner there. Oh and all the dead bodies on the citadel, just waiting for the keepers to make the goo.

I think that Synthesis plan was interrupted during ME1 events, and so Catalyst decided to continue the harvest till it find a new organic anomaly.

[Seival]

A Bethesda Fan wrote...

Seival wrote...

It was an attempt to look fearsome and scare the enemy.

And finally you get to it, the same thing I have been telling  you since my first post.
This is nothing more than fan fiction.

It appears you can't admit this so I will need to report it.

To scare the enemy is not to kill the enemy. Catalyst just wanted enemies to retreat, so it would not have to kill too many organics. You can't prove that in ME1 Catalyst initially wanted to start a new Harvest. You can't see what would happen after Shepard's defeat. And we know too little about our enemy at that point.

The theory is a valid interpretation of game's lore.

Modifié par Seival, 25 octobre 2012 - 09:45 .

[Col.Aurion]

Hahahaha ha wait, u actually cereal?