74 réponses à ce sujet

[kenelis]

OK, I was enjoying DAO up to Landsmeet. Generally speaking the story gave me logical choices during quests so it felt like I was in control of my story and destiny. For example, being able to double-cross the cultists was great. Then I got to Landsmeet and the whole story fell apart. I felt like I was being FORCED down a path by the writers, and it got worse as the story got to its climax. I'll apologize first for this rant and liberal use of caps lock, but while much of this is opinion and I'm sure it's all been mentioned before, dammit I need to vent:


-- At Landsmeet, I had something like 5/6 votes for a new regime. Then Loghain challenges the decision and my only choices are to attack or fight him 1-on-1 to determine who controls Ferelden. What kind of barbarian society is this? If this is how government is formed, why don't we just hand Ferelden to the Archdemon right now because he can beat us 1-on-1?

-- First I let Alistair kick Loghain's arse, but then he executes Loghain. I didn't have an option to persuade him not to. Where is the option to throw Loghain's arse in Fort Drakon so he can stand trial for his crimes later? Did I just blatantly miss a dialogue option? Again, what kind of barbarian society is this? That screwed up the Anora/Alistair marriage so I had to reload and kick Loghain's arse myself. I had to meta-game.

--  After kicking Loghain's arse a second time, my options were to execute him or make him a Grey Warden. OK, why the heck is the second option even there? Why would we want a power-hungry tyrant to become a Warden (Soldier's Peak anyone)? Where is the adventure in the Wilds to test his ability to work with other Wardens? If our standards are so low, we might as well recruit every other bum off the street. We can't banish Loghain because he'd gather his buddies and start another civil war. Execution is the only viable option for a good PC and that's only if you're judge and jury, which is not Grey Warden responsibility. Again, why can't we throw him in Fort Drakon?

-- Then I get to Redcliffe and the first guy I talk to is Riordan who tells me one of us has to die to kill off the Archdemon. You're telling me this NOW? You couldn't tell me at Landsmeet when you offer to make Loghain a Warden? Duncan didn't have one minute to tell us at Ostagar? As the senior Warden with the least amount of time to live, Riordan is the logical choice to deal the killing blow, and he offers to do it himself. He also owes me his life, so I thought all is well (more later). Why the secrecy?

a) Most Wardens should be absolutely pissed they're not told about the Joining or the Archdemon killing thing before they sign up. Frankly, I wanted to pull a Ser Jory at the beginning, and I was thinking "screw you Riordian, I'm going home" when he popped the Archdemon news on me. What's next, will my manhood shrivel up and fall off from the taint? This Warden thing is like signing a contract but you can't read the fine print.
What if the next Blight happens at a place with few Wardens and the local government doesn't welcome them? We let the country die?
c) Let say some army succeeds in killing the Archdemon physically (not spiritually) before the Wardens arrive (it's not like Wardens have special Blight killing training anyway, right)? What will we tell them? "Sorry suckers, you should've waited because only we know how to kill it and we ain't gonna tell youz!"
d) Why not make this knowledge public so you recruit people who WANT to cast aside their past to redeem themselves (see Legion of the Dead)? We recruited Daveth and offered to recruit Loghain, so apparently a recruit's character isn't a problem. Plus, during war soldiers make sacrifices all the time. Ideal time for Wardens, no?

-- Then I talk to Morrigan who presents her option. This is just wrong in SOOOO many ways:

a) I was romancing her at the time, so there was no damned way I was gonna endanger my love and child with the soul of the Archdemon!!! Any PC who loves her (I mean real love, not a teenybopper fling) would rather die than allow potential evil in her belly. She tells me the soul will be pure and untainted, but HOW DO I KNOW THAT when she won't even tell me what her plans are for the baby? I (as in my PC) loves her but I know she's devious.
The plan was hatched by Flemeth, right? And we all know Flemeth meant Morrigan harm to begin with. How can I trust that Morrigan knows what's good for her?
c) If I wasn't romancing her, I still wouldn't preserve the soul of an Archdemon with limited explanation about the consequences.
d) I didn't see the need for this knowing that Riordan was already offering to kill the Archdemon himself. Major factor in my decision here!!!
e) Even if my PC is a one-shot wonder, there's a two-day march to Denerim. At that stage, there is no "child" yet. The heart doesn't beat until Day 20ish. There's no Codex for Ferelden Beliefs on Embryonic Development, so fantasy gameworld or not, I assume this just won't work!

-- Morrigan leaves me. Really? After she admits she doesn't understand society, but wants to travel, and therefore needs a guide? After she admits she loves me in her own unique way (she considers love a weakness, so I can accept this as a reason to leave as well)? After I killed the legendary Flemeth for her?After I found TWO grimoires for her? I can understand her leaving my do-gooder arse if I'm holding her back, but she has benefited greatly by my side, and if we successfully kill the Archdemon then ALL of Ferelden will be showering us with rewards. For what reason would she want to leave now besides a temper tantrum that I had NO dialogue options to change her mind with? Not even a persuade check at a time I need it most? No chance to explain WHY I don't want this option because I fear for her safety? You can argue that Morrigan walking away from love is in-character, but I was stunned that my PC just stood there like a stump! Given the facts at hand, this was an unjustifiable plot twist that forces more meta-gaming if the PC wants to keep her.

-- At Denerim, Riordan gets himself killed by soloing the Archdemon. Seriously, just how STUPID is he???? He knows there are only THREE people in all of Ferelden who can kill the Archdemon. He knows I spent OVER A YEAR in game time to muster an ARMY for this very moment. And now he decides to SOLO the freakin' Archdemon??? Knowing that if he dies, there are only two ROOKIE Wardens to figure out how to beat this thing? Knowing that if he dies, he also condemns a rookie Warden to death??? I could practically see a Bioware writer in the cutscene flipping me off! Apparently he saw an opportunity to injure the Archdemon, but how is that better than working together with two POWERFUL Wardens and an ARMY? I'm all for plot twists, but this was a nonsensical plot twist that affected other game critical decisions.

-- So Alistair offers to deal the killing blow. But I'm his best friend. I know he's the next king of Ferelden. I've lost Morrigan. So my character does it himself and dies. Now it would be a good sacrifice if the epilogue shows my closest companions having good lives afterwards, because I didn't save Ferelden for the sake of saving the LAND, I saved it for the PEOPLE that I care about. Grey Wardens are about sacrifice, I get it, but it's about sacrifice so others may live better. And how was I rewarded?

a) Alistair is married to a ****y queen who won't hold his hand in front of the court (see cutscene).
Morrigan, Leliana, and Wynne disappear. That's it?
c) Not even a blurb about Mangy my faithful wardog????

-- In the epilogue where the PC dies, Morrigan is spotted carrying a baby. Now, the logical assumption is that this is the PC's baby, because the same epilogue also mentions that she is rumored to be the PC's lover. If that's the case, why did she want to try and conceive at Redcliffe? I know the arguments: maybe she didn't know, or maybe this isn't the PC's child, or maybe it wasn't really Morrigan who was spotted, but we shouldn't have to make up excuses to explain the epilogue. No, the logical assumption is that she's pregnant with the PC's child which is inconsistent with her offer at Redcliffe.

-- In hindsight, there are only three ways to save the PC's life. Impregnate Morrigan, let Alistair die, or let Loghain become a Warden so he can die. A good character would never choose any of these options. Of the three options, letting Loghain die is the "best" way to handle this without hurting people you care for, but at Landsmeet you DON'T KNOW that a Warden must die to kill the Archdemon. So basically a good character will ALWAYS die unless they meta-game.

So to summarize, I spent two weeks playing a game doing all the "right" things, and my reward is death and ambiguous endings for the companions I cared most about. Am I saying I want a happy ending? YES, damn right I want a happy ending! If I want tragedy, I'll go to work! I play games to escape from that crap! I'm all for tragedy when building up the story. But the ENDING is different, the ending is supposed to be my REWARD. I played the altruistic good guy the whole game, but the ending felt forced and artificial for all the reasons above. Tragedy for the sake of tragedy. The ending was such a downer that I felt melancholic for days afterwards. DAO will be the best game I'll only play once because I feel like I'm punished at the end. My loss, I know, and that's why I'm cheesed.

I'm not saying the ending should have a parade with balloons, medals, and a Wookiee bleating in the background. I was heartbroken when Viconia died in my BG ending, but we spent some time together and had a kid (dropped godhood) and my other companions were happy, so it was a good ending. I would've been happy to end DAO by leaving Ferelden with the remainder of my companions and adventure elsewhere, which is not truly possible for a good character for the reasons listed above. The DAO endings are a horrible way to end the game for anyone who wants to play the good guy and not meta-game because of very artificial plot twists. Bioware, I love your games, but this ending flat out ruined DAO for me.

I know DAO is supposed to be darker, and I know you can't please everyone. But this ending goes too far! You hurt my feelings, Bioware!!


/rant

(Edited those blasted bullet points)

Modifié par kenelis, 31 décembre 2009 - 09:32 .

[Cammy2709]

You know, considering I actually took the time to read this, I was pleasantly surprised and I have to give you some kudos. You have raised some pretty hefty arguments with all that and it's not just some random jibberish. However for the most part I personally can't say much apart from, It's a game. Alot of the plot points that you're saying is ruining the ending for you appear to be there becuase if they weren't it'd essentially ruin the game for the player. I mean for example, being told right at the start that you would possibly die from killing the archdemon would certainly put a dampener on my experience. I understand your points, and this is by no means me having a go at you, but stuff like this you just have to let go. Although I agree with you that we should be able to adventure with our chronies at the end. My warden is too epic to stagnate.

[arntson]

good points but it could be that by not bangifieing her your actually condemning her but thats about as likly as any guess

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

Okay either this is just sad troll trying to have some fun, or it is someone who really didn't pay attention whilst playing the game.



So let me get this straight, despite Bann Alfstanna stating the reason why you are dueling Loghain, you don't understand it is a matter of honour?



Next, despite the fact that Alastair has been wanting to chop Loghain's head off since Ostagar, you don't understand when he does it without contestation?



You later didn't pay attention to the fact that Riordan apologises for not telling you because earlier on he thought you would have been told but then in hindsight he realises because you are new to the Wardens Duncan wouldn't have told you.



Morrigan then gives you a way out, which you claim you actually wanted but don't now want to take because she is being secretive and wanting to raise the child alone. So you basically damn yourself or Alastair to a death and then complain about it later on.



Despite the fact that Riordan told you he would be the one to do the killing blow, it strikes you as odd that he tries to do it himself? Yes the jumping on the dragon thing was a bit stupid but seeing as he does mention before the fight that the only way to take out a flying dragon is to get somewhere high. Its a bit obvious he is going to try take it in flight.



Also you then fail to pay attention to the epilogue which if you go with the Alastair and Anora marriage it states they actually ruled quite well.



Morrigan disappearing you already knew she would, she said adios to you when you refused the ritual. If leliana and wynne just 'disappeared' (i doubt they did, I reckon you didn't pay attention again) then that means you can't have been very approving with them, so if you expected them to stick around for erm... what reason? *shrugs*



As for the child, maybe... just maybe it is because she didn't do the dark ritual with you when you romanced her before that fateful night. Ever think of that?



Oh and no you are wrong, if you really cared about Alastair the way you claim, you would know he didn't want the throne. Yes he does make a good King, but the fact is it wasn't what he really wanted unless you hardened him (which am guessing you probably didn't), correct me if am wrong but after you made him King, did he rant at you by any chance?



There are plenty of ways for a 'good' character to come out of the fight alive, your perception of good is limited by your inability to pay attention to what people are saying.



One other thing anyway, making that sacrifice can easily be considered a good ending, as to the remainder of your party, it sounds like you didn't know them and be as good as you think (if they really did just 'disappear').

[kenelis]

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...

Okay either this is just sad troll trying to have some fun, or it is someone who really didn't pay attention whilst playing the game.

So let me get this straight, despite Bann Alfstanna stating the reason why you are dueling Loghain, you don't understand it is a matter of honour?

Next, despite the fact that Alastair has been wanting to chop Loghain's head off since Ostagar, you don't understand when he does it without contestation?

You later didn't pay attention to the fact that Riordan apologises for not telling you because earlier on he thought you would have been told but then in hindsight he realises because you are new to the Wardens Duncan wouldn't have told you.

Morrigan then gives you a way out, which you claim you actually wanted but don't now want to take because she is being secretive and wanting to raise the child alone. So you basically damn yourself or Alastair to a death and then complain about it later on.

Despite the fact that Riordan told you he would be the one to do the killing blow, it strikes you as odd that he tries to do it himself? Yes the jumping on the dragon thing was a bit stupid but seeing as he does mention before the fight that the only way to take out a flying dragon is to get somewhere high. Its a bit obvious he is going to try take it in flight.

Also you then fail to pay attention to the epilogue which if you go with the Alastair and Anora marriage it states they actually ruled quite well.

Morrigan disappearing you already knew she would, she said adios to you when you refused the ritual. If leliana and wynne just 'disappeared' (i doubt they did, I reckon you didn't pay attention again) then that means you can't have been very approving with them, so if you expected them to stick around for erm... what reason? *shrugs*

As for the child, maybe... just maybe it is because she didn't do the dark ritual with you when you romanced her before that fateful night. Ever think of that?

Oh and no you are wrong, if you really cared about Alastair the way you claim, you would know he didn't want the throne. Yes he does make a good King, but the fact is it wasn't what he really wanted unless you hardened him (which am guessing you probably didn't), correct me if am wrong but after you made him King, did he rant at you by any chance?

There are plenty of ways for a 'good' character to come out of the fight alive, your perception of good is limited by your inability to pay attention to what people are saying.

One other thing anyway, making that sacrifice can easily be considered a good ending, as to the remainder of your party, it sounds like you didn't know them and be as good as you think (if they really did just 'disappear').

OK, I won't take offense to your accusations about me trolling. I believe my points are quite valid. However,  I don't think you understood my points at all.

1. There is no honor when a tyrant fights an outsider to rule a country.
2. I understand just fine. Hence I wanted to persuade him not to. Either way one would expect a civil society to have trials before execution.
3. Heard it. Doesn't invalidate my points.
4. You missed my points completely.
5. So we agree that it was a stupid move. Forced plot twist.
6. They rule well. Doesn't mean they're happy together.
7. Again, you missed my points about Morrigan. Maxed approval for Leliana and Wynne. You get those endings no matter what.
8. Like I said, we're making excuses to validate the epilogue.
9. He chose to make a sacrifice for his country. Nobody forced him. And I want a happy ending for him as a result.

[kenelis]

Cammy2709 wrote...

You know, considering I actually took the time to read this, I was pleasantly surprised and I have to give you some kudos. You have raised some pretty hefty arguments with all that and it's not just some random jibberish. However for the most part I personally can't say much apart from, It's a game. Alot of the plot points that you're saying is ruining the ending for you appear to be there becuase if they weren't it'd essentially ruin the game for the player. I mean for example, being told right at the start that you would possibly die from killing the archdemon would certainly put a dampener on my experience. I understand your points, and this is by no means me having a go at you, but stuff like this you just have to let go. Although I agree with you that we should be able to adventure with our chronies at the end. My warden is too epic to stagnate.

Yeah, you're right, it's just a game. Still, I needed to voice those opinions. I feel much better having said my piece... sigh...

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

9. So you want someone to raise him from the dead so he can be happy? Sacrifices amazingly do sometimes mean dying for the cause. That is why it is called a sacrifice



8. Erm, no we aren't making excuses to validate the epilogue it is called you not paying attention during the game. Also you didn't answer my question as to whether he ranted at you? Oh no wait, you probably weren't paying attention when he did.



7. Also if you maxed approval with Leliana and Wynne then I believe you most likely got Leliana making a ballad about you, singing it once and then going off. Whilst Wynne possibly went off to have fun adventuring whatever remaining years she had left. How the latter can be deemed as sad is beyond me? and no I didn't miss your points about Morrigan and the baby, if you paid attention to what I wrote you would see I clearly pointed that one out.

Morrigan disappearing you already knew she would, she said adios to you when you refused the ritual. As for the child, maybe... just maybe it is because she didn't do the dark ritual with you when you romanced her before that fateful night. Ever think of that?

6. I refer to point 8, as I said in my original post, if you had paid attention to what Alastair said, you would know he didn't want to be King, thus you weren't good to him and it is your fault if he wasn't happy, although last I recall he generally goes off gallavanting around with the commoners. So I think he somehow did find some measure of happiness even if you didn't give him it.



5. A funny thing hindsight, as for it being a 'forced' plot twist, last I recall we are playing the 'hero' are we not? Thus it isn't a plot twist it is an obvious event that is going to happen. Otherwise there would have been no point in us making our way to Fort Drakon if Riordan was going to do all the work for us. Also once again if you had paid attention and spoken to him at the gates you would know why he went off on his own. He went off on his own otherwise if you all went together you would be a big beacon for the darkspawn and archdemon to attack and kill without any real chance.



4. No I didn't, your just making assumptions and once again not paying attention to what she said, you are also actually willingly wanting to condemn Riordan to a death. What, just because he only just told you about the sacrifice? Yay really 'good' guy aren't you?



3. Erm actually it very much destroys your points. We are all but human, we make mistakes, sorry if you claim to be some mr perfect but you've clearly already proven you aren't. So stop being a hypocrite.



2. Hotheaded Alastair, you really think letting him duel the person he believes to have killed his father-like figure is going to end any other way than death... and yet you then still went on to make him King despite deeming him as 'uncivilised' and barbaric?



1. I'll say it again, you weren't paying attention to what is said, it is a part of Ferelden law. Up until that landsmeet, a majority of people revered Loghain as a legend. Had it not been for him and Cailan's father, Orlais would still be occupying Ferelden. So yes, he does have the right to defend his honor. You aren't in the middle of a battlefield.



I apologise for my earlier 'troll' comment but as we get them every now and then making similar rants, it kind of makes it hard to tell them from the people whom are just upset that they didn't get the ending they really thought they deserved.

[SeanMurphy2]

I can relate to how you feel. Though eventually  I got over it and accepted the game as it was.

Things like the Landsmeet always being decided by a duel. Having Loghain join the Grey Wardens or be immediately executed on the floor of the Landsmeet. Having to choose between Alistair or Loghain. Trying to understand the idea of the conception ritual and what is the soul of an old god.

Modifié par SeanMurphy2, 31 décembre 2009 - 11:20 .

[Vergil_dgk]

Well, I, for one, thought the game really picked up from the time you arrive in Denerim with Arl Eamon and on to the end.

[Alakatra]

The fact with the landsmeet is really pretty good. You win the decision by 5 to 1 and still Loghain can say "Well, fight me, if you don't win, I'm king and whatever the decision here was is moot". The game makes it look like the landsmeet decides unanimously or not at all. I'm pretty sure that Eamon didn't have planned that we sneak into Howes castle and more or less accidentally kill him, so when he prepared the landsmeet, Eamon should have already known that at least one arl would vote for Loghain and it would be non-decision.

The only point of the landsmeet at a whole seems to be the official OK of some of the arls that you can try to kill Loghain and if you succeed, they would follow you. If not, bad for you.

[Apophis2412]

kenelis wrote...

OK, I was enjoying DAO up to Landsmeet. Generally speaking the story gave me logical choices during quests so it felt like I was in control of my story and destiny. For example, being able to double-cross the cultists was great. Then I got to Landsmeet and the whole story fell apart. I felt like I was being FORCED down a path by the writers, and it got worse as the story got to its climax. I'll apologize first for this rant and liberal use of caps lock, but while much of this is opinion and I'm sure it's all been mentioned before, dammit I need to vent:


-- At Landsmeet, I had something like 5/6 votes for a new regime. Then Loghain challenges the decision and my only choices are to attack or fight him 1-on-1 to determine who controls Ferelden. What kind of barbarian society is this? If this is how government is formed, why don't we just hand Ferelden to the Archdemon right now because he can beat us 1-on-1?

It took you this long to find out that Ferelden is a very barbaric and primitive society?


-- First I let Alistair kick Loghain's arse, but then he executes Loghain. I didn't have an option to persuade him not to. Where is the option to throw Loghain's arse in Fort Drakon so he can stand trial for his crimes later? Did I just blatantly miss a dialogue option? Again, what kind of barbarian society is this? That screwed up the Anora/Alistair marriage so I had to reload and kick Loghain's arse myself. I had to meta-game.

Stand trial? I doubt Ferelden even has court system or even a law. People seem to be able to be excetued by the local ruler on a whim. Just look at how Eamon had Jowan executed.

--  After kicking Loghain's arse a second time, my options were to execute him or make him a Grey Warden. OK, why the heck is the second option even there? Why would we want a power-hungry tyrant to become a Warden (Soldier's Peak anyone)? Where is the adventure in the Wilds to test his ability to work with other Wardens? If our standards are so low, we might as well recruit every other bum off the street. We can't banish Loghain because he'd gather his buddies and start another civil war. Execution is the only viable option for a good PC and that's only if you're judge and jury, which is not Grey Warden responsibility. Again, why can't we throw him in Fort Drakon?

The Grey Wardens don't care about someone's past. The fact that Loghain was a criminal and deserved execution was irrelevant. He was a great warrior and general and that was all that mattered.
Or in more simple terms: Blight > justice, morality, vengeance, etc.

Also remember Duncan? If I rememeber the Calling novel right, he was a common bandit who only gained the GW's notice when he killed a high-ranking Grey Warden's fiancee. His 'reward'was his recruitment into the order. Talk about low recruit standards.

-- Then I get to Redcliffe and the first guy I talk to is Riordan who tells me one of us has to die to kill off the Archdemon. You're telling me this NOW? You couldn't tell me at Landsmeet when you offer to make Loghain a Warden? Duncan didn't have one minute to tell us at Ostagar? As the senior Warden with the least amount of time to live, Riordan is the logical choice to deal the killing blow, and he offers to do it himself. He also owes me his life, so I thought all is well (more later). Why the secrecy?

a) Most Wardens should be absolutely pissed they're not told about the Joining or the Archdemon killing thing before they sign up. Frankly, I wanted to pull a Ser Jory at the beginning, and I was thinking "screw you Riordian, I'm going home" when he popped the Archdemon news on me. What's next, will my manhood shrivel up and fall off from the taint? This Warden thing is like signing a contract but you can't read the fine print.
What if the next Blight happens at a place with few Wardens and the local government doesn't welcome them? We let the country die?
c) Let say some army succeeds in killing the Archdemon physically (not spiritually) before the Wardens arrive (it's not like Wardens have special Blight killing training anyway, right)? What will we tell them? "Sorry suckers, you should've waited because only we know how to kill it and we ain't gonna tell youz!"
d) Why not make this knowledge public so you recruit people who WANT to cast aside their past to redeem themselves (see Legion of the Dead)? We recruited Daveth and offered to recruit Loghain, so apparently a recruit's character isn't a problem. Plus, during war soldiers make sacrifices all the time. Ideal time for Wardens, no?

If the Joining were known than many people would not want to join the Grey Wardens.
It has been nearly four hundred years since the last Blight. The Grey Wardens are seen as a relic from the past. Some even see them as obsolete. Why sacrifice your life for a seemingly obsolete order?
Also drinking darkspawn blood sounds like Blood Magic, which has had a very bad reputation ever since the Tevinter Imperium went into the Golden City.

-- Then I talk to Morrigan who presents her option. This is just wrong in SOOOO many ways:

a) I was romancing her at the time, so there was no damned way I was gonna endanger my love and child with the soul of the Archdemon!!! Any PC who loves her (I mean real love, not a teenybopper fling) would rather die than allow potential evil in her belly. She tells me the soul will be pure and untainted, but HOW DO I KNOW THAT when she won't even tell me what her plans are for the baby? I (as in my PC) loves her but I know she's devious.
The plan was hatched by Flemeth, right? And we all know Flemeth meant Morrigan harm to begin with. How can I trust that Morrigan knows what's good for her?
c) If I wasn't romancing her, I still wouldn't preserve the soul of an Archdemon with limited explanation about the consequences.
d) I didn't see the need for this knowing that Riordan was already offering to kill the Archdemon himself. Major factor in my decision here!!!
e) Even if my PC is a one-shot wonder, there's a two-day march to Denerim. At that stage, there is no "child" yet. The heart doesn't beat until Day 20ish. There's no Codex for Ferelden Beliefs on Embryonic Development, so fantasy gameworld or not, I assume this just won't work!



-- Morrigan leaves me. Really? After she admits she doesn't understand society, but wants to travel, and therefore needs a guide? After she admits she loves me in her own unique way (she considers love a weakness, so I can accept this as a reason to leave as well)? After I killed the legendary Flemeth for her?After I found TWO grimoires for her? I can understand her leaving my do-gooder arse if I'm holding her back, but she has benefited greatly by my side, and if we successfully kill the Archdemon then ALL of Ferelden will be showering us with rewards. For what reason would she want to leave now besides a temper tantrum that I had NO dialogue options to change her mind with? Not even a persuade check at a time I need it most? No chance to explain WHY I don't want this option because I fear for her safety? You can argue that Morrigan walking away from love is in-character, but I was stunned that my PC just stood there like a stump! Given the facts at hand, this was an unjustifiable plot twist that forces more meta-gaming if the PC wants to keep her.

Rescuing an Old God (Archdemon) seems more important to Morrigan then anything, even the player. WHY? Your guess is as good as mine. Perhaps she will go in search of the two remaining Old Gods. 

-- At Denerim, Riordan gets himself killed by soloing the Archdemon. Seriously, just how STUPID is he???? He knows there are only THREE people in all of Ferelden who can kill the Archdemon. He knows I spent OVER A YEAR in game time to muster an ARMY for this very moment. And now he decides to SOLO the freakin' Archdemon??? Knowing that if he dies, there are only two ROOKIE Wardens to figure out how to beat this thing? Knowing that if he dies, he also condemns a rookie Warden to death??? I could practically see a Bioware writer in the cutscene flipping me off! Apparently he saw an opportunity to injure the Archdemon, but how is that better than working together with two POWERFUL Wardens and an ARMY? I'm all for plot twists, but this was a nonsensical plot twist that affected other game critical decisions.

Good point.

-- So Alistair offers to deal the killing blow. But I'm his best friend. I know he's the next king of Ferelden. I've lost Morrigan. So my character does it himself and dies. Now it would be a good sacrifice if the epilogue shows my closest companions having good lives afterwards, because I didn't save Ferelden for the sake of saving the LAND, I saved it for the PEOPLE that I care about. Grey Wardens are about sacrifice, I get it, but it's about sacrifice so others may live better. And how was I rewarded?

a) Alistair is married to a ****y queen who won't hold his hand in front of the court (see cutscene).
Morrigan, Leliana, and Wynne disappear. That's it?
c) Not even a blurb about Mangy my faithful wardog????

Why not sacrifice Alistair? If unhardened he hates being king, while unhardened Alistair wants to sacrifice himself, because it is the right thing to do.

Also Grey Wardens are not about saving your loved ones. You job is to save the land, not the small group of people that traveled with you.

-- In the epilogue where the PC dies, Morrigan is spotted carrying a baby. Now, the logical assumption is that this is the PC's baby, because the same epilogue also mentions that she is rumored to be the PC's lover. If that's the case, why did she want to try and conceive at Redcliffe? I know the arguments: maybe she didn't know, or maybe this isn't the PC's child, or maybe it wasn't really Morrigan who was spotted, but we shouldn't have to make up excuses to explain the epilogue. No, the logical assumption is that she's pregnant with the PC's child which is inconsistent with her offer at Redcliffe.

-- In hindsight, there are only three ways to save the PC's life. Impregnate Morrigan, let Alistair die, or let Loghain become a Warden so he can die. A good character would never choose any of these options. Of the three options, letting Loghain die is the "best" way to handle this without hurting people you care for, but at Landsmeet you DON'T KNOW that a Warden must die to kill the Archdemon. So basically a good character will ALWAYS die unless they meta-game.

I usually make Loghain a Grey Warden so he has a chance to redeem himself. Also having a great war hero/ general at your side is always handy.

So to summarize, I spent two weeks playing a game doing all the "right" things, and my reward is death and ambiguous endings for the companions I cared most about. Am I saying I want a happy ending? YES, damn right I want a happy ending! If I want tragedy, I'll go to work! I play games to escape from that crap! I'm all for tragedy when building up the story. But the ENDING is different, the ending is supposed to be my REWARD. I played the altruistic good guy the whole game, but the ending felt forced and artificial for all the reasons above. Tragedy for the sake of tragedy. The ending was such a downer that I felt melancholic for days afterwards. DAO will be the best game I'll only play once because I feel like I'm punished at the end. My loss, I know, and that's why I'm cheesed.

I'm not saying the ending should have a parade with balloons, medals, and a Wookiee bleating in the background. I was heartbroken when Viconia died in my BG ending, but we spent some time together and had a kid (dropped godhood) and my other companions were happy, so it was a good ending. I would've been happy to end DAO by leaving Ferelden with the remainder of my companions and adventure elsewhere, which is not truly possible for a good character for the reasons listed above. The DAO endings are a horrible way to end the game for anyone who wants to play the good guy and not meta-game because of very artificial plot twists. Bioware, I love your games, but this ending flat out ruined DAO for me.

I know DAO is supposed to be darker, and I know you can't please everyone. But this ending goes too far! You hurt my feelings, Bioware!!


/rant

(Edited those blasted bullet points)

Modifié par Apophis2412, 31 décembre 2009 - 11:12 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Now this is an excellent critique, finally, of some very valid objections. I agree with you on your reasons, though I found the fact that it was so convluted, unfair, and bitter actually made me enjoy it more, because it was so downright dreary. No matter how hard you try, someone, usually several someones, suffer.



But I can understand how someone, who might have been hoping for some measure of resolution, would be upset. It really is dark and convoluted, and the descisions offered really are often no win scenarios. But I ended up liking it just the same.



Ferelden is barbaric. So is the whole of Thedas. Ferelden is actually much more pleasant than other places such as orlais, but it's still a nasty place where might makes right, no matter how hard you try to remain civil. Once PC decided to take the final blow because she realized just how f-ed up the world really was, and really didn't relish living on in it afterwords.



But anyways, your objections are well voiced, coherent, and understandable. I can see where you are coming from.

[Creature 1]

1. There is no honor when a tyrant fights an outsider to rule a country.  I don't think this is really about honor, it's a way to minimize bloodshed while two contestants to the throne determine who gets it.  Yes, I would expect this to be to the death.  Neither human nor dwarf societies here seem very tolerant of challenges to royal authority.   

2. I understand just fine. Hence I wanted to persuade him not to. Either way one would expect a civil society to have trials before execution.  Ferelden in many ways is not civilized!  Loghain's primary crime (like Harrowmont's) was losing.  He could have been Mother Theresa and it still would be expected he would be killed upon losing the duel. 

Morrigan can have a kid that is yours but that does not have the Archdemon's soul because it was conceived without the Dark Ritual.  Blood magic is involved in the ritual. 

People have known for thousands of years that having sex can produce babies 9 months later.  The baby usually is not considered "alive" until quickening, but it's known that sex starts the process, and that there is a fetus present before quickening.  So it's not ridiculous to think that a fetus immediately after conception could serve as a host for the Archdemon. 

There may be three Gray Wardens present at the beginning of the attack, but it's not unreasonable to expect you might burn through a couple in attempting to kill the Archdemon.  My mage (who was in love with Alistair) didn't like the odds of them surviving, so had Alistair go through with the ritual to help improve their chances. 

[Freckles04]

I'm glad you had a chance to rant about the game. That's why forums like this are so great -- they give you a place to share opinions and hear what others think. I know I love them for that. My husband thinks I'm nuts to keep wanting to talk about DA:O, and I have to hold back a lot of the time, because he hasn't finished it yet.

So, that said, I think I liked the game for all the reasons you said you didn't.

On my first playthrough, I had no idea what I was doing. I was playing an elven mage who loved Alistair and thought he would make a great king. So I made him king. And promptly got dumped, because I didn't know anything about the "hardening" aspect in his personal quest. As sadistic as it sounds, that was the point that changed the game from a really good game to a phenomenal game, for me. It HURT! And I realized just how much I'd invested in my character and in the romance with Al. I had gotten the hints from Wynne about love and how it's selfish; I'd had the pre-Landsmeet talk with Al where he hints that maybe things were going to change once he was king, but I didn't hear any of it. And then I was forced to face the reality that I probably wasn't going to get the happily ever after ending I wanted.

When Riordan reveals the sacrifice required to defeat the archdemon, I wasn't terribly shocked. You mentioned that one of the biggest problems for you in the game was that playing a "good" character, from the Landsmeet to the endgame, meant you were forced into a single line of decision-making. I don't agree with that.

Yes, there are good/evil choices through the game, but what I loved about DA:O was that a lot of the times, the "good" choice turned out not to be so good. Like making Harrowmont king -- yes, he's more honourable, but in the epilogue it states that his rule was not what the dwarven kingdom needed, and he eventually dies, possibly poisoned. At the endgame, no matter what you do, you have to make a sacrifice of some kind: you have to sacrifice your life, or the life of one of your companions; if you're a female Warden in love with Alistair, you have to sacrifice your love's "purity" in order to save your lives.

My elven mage freaked out at Morrigan's offer and turned her down. The female Cousland I rolled next took her up on it. From a roleplaying perspective, it was because Ferelden needed Alistair, and Alistair needed my Cousland. Ferelden needed to be rebuilt, and having its strongest war leader dead wasn't going to help it any. So that's not really an evil choice; she viewed it as a necessary one in order to buy her and Alistair some time for each other, and for the country.

I'm sure we can all agree on one thing, however: a game that generates these kinds of discussions is a rare, rare thing. Kudos to Bioware.

[Orion3000]

"What's next, will my manhood shrivel up and fall off from the taint?" hahaha, brilliant!

But I agree on most parts, especially the part near the end of the game, with morrigan and all that.



But for Riorden: someone had to clip the archdemons wings right? Fireballs\\lightning strikes it would probably evade and arrrows barely harm it anyway.

.

[Antikristine]

Your post is extensive, so I won't comment on all of it. I think many of your points are valid, but I still don't agree that the end of the game feels forced. At Landsmeet, choices no longer depend on you alone, and there are other political powers that also have strong opinions and strong supporters. It is restrictive, indeed, but so is political processes in the real world as well. 

Second, the world of Dragon Age IS a barbarian world, one comparable to how our world was during medieval times. "Democracy" isn't well developed, and voting seems to be a guidance only for the ruling powers. 

I think the different options during Landsmeet make sense. They are extreme, but people go to extremes when they feel that everything they stand for is threatened. I do - however - agree that it would make sense to be able to imprison Loghain (and also to kill Anora). But this is a design decision; at some point the developers must narrow down the options so that the ending fits for an upcoming sequel. 

I do, however, agree that Riordan's sacrifice is a stupid move on his part, and I wish there were more dialogue options in which the PC could try to talk him out of it, and maybe we would get some kind of better explanation to why him going alone is a good idea.

About the ending itself: you say you don't want a tragedy; well, that's a personal opinion. I LOVE to see a real tragedy in a computer game, and I think the ending of DA:O was a very good attempt of that. But the medium of computer games, and of computer role-playing games in particular, is still immature, and I expect there to be even better attempts of having game tragedies in the future. Like other media, games also have the potential of being a medium that is able to present philosophical and moral dilemmas, but if that's not your cup of tea, well, then go play something different.

About DA:O in particular, I think the ending is a decent attempt at that; you will never be able to have a true happy ending, because all actions have consequences. And as you say, having the PC sacrifice him/herself may seem to be the only "correct" ending. I agree with you in this observation, but I don't agree that this is a bad thing. I think it's a superb thing. It makes me actually think about my actions in a game, something I never do when I play Super Mario Bros, Tekken or Assassin's Creed. 

Somehow I get the feeling you liked the game a lot, however, since the ending produced these powerful feelings in you  

[Acidyl]

Who knows what the result of a human archdemon might be? Maybe it will be possible to control the darkspawn into no longer attacking the deep roads?



Further more: even if you kill her; Morrigan is pretty convinced that Flemeth will return. If you truly love her; you have given Morrigan a possible pretty powerfull weapon against Flemeth; or even a reason for Flemeth not to dare to do anything anymore.



I do have the agree on Alistar though; his reactions in the end are completely rubbish to his character profile that was created. He's no leader; even admits that he isn't; he doesn't want to be King until the landsmeet; says so on multiple occasions; even more; putting him in the throne feels like the evil option; basically the grey wardens taking control of the throne.



He acts like a shy little child throughout the game; and starts acting like a spoiled brat in the end. It doesn't fit; not one bit; no matter how much he cared for Duncan.

[Freestorm Skinn]

Why has no one pointed out that the Archdemon was FLYING. Riordan was the only one who could kill it, so of course he would try to bring it down on top of kill it. He was the only Grey Warden in the area at the time, so why wouldn't he give it a go? Your PC is the auxillary should he fail, so it's all according to plan.



He failed, but he damaged its wing, which brought it down, made it impossible to fly long distances, and thus Riordan made it possible for your PC to kill it because it was stuck to being on the ground.

[Taleroth]

I like you. No really. I agree on many points.

[kenelis]

Well I can't reply to everyone, since there's people on both sides the of the fence regarding each point. I'll reply to the most commented ones though:

-- Landsmeet: Fereldans opposed the Orlesian rule quite strongly, correct? Orlesians were an undesired entity that took the land by force. Well if Loghain actually won the duel, he'd be the same thing. But Landsmeet was OK with that. Take away the accent and birthplace and what's the difference? The guy with the bigger sword wins. Yeah, that's an oversimplification, but my point is I expected democracy from a country that's been holding Landsmeets for centuries, and found out it doesn't exist the hard way.

-- Morrigan's offer: Clearly Morrigan is hiding something. Remember I chose *not* to do the ritual because I thought it was the *safe* choice for her (see first post). Some assumptions have been made that the ritual is needed to save her against Flemeth somehow... if she *told me* that I'd help her. If I can save her by sleeping with her, of course I wouldn't object. Last time I helped her, she made me fight a dragon! Why would a woman my PC loves withhold information from me? If that doesn't raise alarms, what does?

-- Riordan: Nobody clipped Flemeth or the High Dragon's wings. I still beat them. Not to mention that the Archdemon was flying around the tower just fine afterwards. Nothing in the game suggests that what Riordan did was *necessary* for us to win. Hence, the whole bit seemed like a pointless sacrifice to steer me towards a difficult ending.

-- Leliana/Wynne endings: I got the compose ballad/last adventure bits, then the epilogue says they travel somewhere and are never seen again. IMO, there's no closure there. I'm not terribly disappointed with these epilogues, but they feel like empty calories.

Anyways, I understand that not all choices work out (e.g. siding with Harrowmont didn't work out for the dwarves), but from Landsmeet to the end, it felt like *every* choice I made was the wrong one. It's not just the ending per se that bugs me, it's the way I felt *steered* towards it. I enjoyed the first 95% of DAO, but this post would be no fun if I just sing praises, right?

Modifié par kenelis, 31 décembre 2009 - 11:03 .

[heat2008]

And here I thought I had some issues with the game, I was CLEARLY mistaken. In any event I'm curious to know if it's possible to persuade the landsmeet to make you queen alongside Alister if you are a human noble. If not my next playthrough I'll make a male and bang Morrigan up right and proppah, I can always track her down and steal my kid later



The only reason I didn't accept th offer this time around is because I was female and Allister was giving it up to me, so no Morrigan you can't have the D

[fantasypisces]

Basically it was purely game design, they need to keep it at two wardens, so you either lose your friend, make the traitor a hero, or kill yourself.



You are working under the impression the Morrigan's child can be nothing but evil. I played a good character too, and I took her offer, I don't believe the child will be evil.



For the most part I agree with you. Picking Loghain makes Alistair abandon everything which goes against everything I learned about his character. Why? To keep it at two Grey Wardens.



Riordin pulls a dumb-**** move trying to be a hero and dies. Why? To keep it at two Grey Wardens.



So it comes down to either sacrificing your best friend, making a traitor a hero, or killing yourself, all in the name of dark fantasy.



I love the game pre-landsmeet, I sort of "can stand" the game landsmeet afterwards.

It is kind of rough because the entire premise of the game is that you are forced into something. Not just forced into saving the land and becoming the hero, but being forced into something because you were lied to.

Duncan blackmails my dying father for me to become a Grey Warden. Every question I ask Duncan about the Grey Wardens he makes it seem like an honorable society, they are doing the right thing. After the joining? Oh right, you are going to die very soon. All of my characters but one (a dwarf who was honored to join the wardens) have been pissed about the whole thing. Which is another reason I take the ritual, I'm not dying for this **** bortherhood.

[fantasypisces]

Also wanted to add, the writers were also very vague on the whole Morrigan thing, simply to make it a tough choice. Why can't she tell me her plans (especially if I was at 100love). Why can't I go with you if I agree with giving birth to an old-god, I mean, the character clearly thinks what your doing is a good thing. Nope doesn't matter, she leaves.



PC: Why are you being so vague, Morrigan?

Morrigan: because that's how I am.

PC: Well I refuse to do it until you give me more information...

Morrigan: Fine, F you, I'm leaving...

<Morrigan leaves>

PC: Well, that wasn't a direct no. She would really leave me simply because I wanted to know more?



yeah, the ending was just about making tough choices, and ruined a lot of the immersion for me. Here is hoping they do better for sequels.

[Sialater]

Actually, from what I remember of my Medieval literature classes in grad school, the way Landsmeet is decided is not necessarily barbaric. It was decided the same way it would have been decided in Celtic lands, in Germanic lands, in Norse culture and yes, even the Greeks and Romans did it. Trial by jury is an incredibly RECENT invention.



And if you think your ending sucked, try being a non-human or mage for whom the love of your life Alistair sacrificed himself.