74 réponses à ce sujet

[MonkeyChief117]

kenelis, i found your original post very interesting (and long). I hadn't really thought about the ending in depth but your pretty much spot on. Your grey warden friend killing himself soloing the archdemon was a complete wtf moment. And what happened to my dog Chewy - i took him to fight the archdemon with me and he wasn't  even mentioned! I also agree that there were too many "...and they were never seen again..." moments at the end.
However, i still enjoyed it and anguished over every decision during the last couple of hours.

[fantasypisces]

Sialater wrote...

Actually, from what I remember of my Medieval literature classes in grad school, the way Landsmeet is decided is not necessarily barbaric. It was decided the same way it would have been decided in Celtic lands, in Germanic lands, in Norse culture and yes, even the Greeks and Romans did it. Trial by jury is an incredibly RECENT invention.

And if you think your ending sucked, try being a non-human or mage for whom the love of your life Alistair sacrificed himself.

I think his point, and mine as well, is why bother calling a landsmeet, and having a vote if the entire thing is going to end in a duel anyway.

Arl Woolfe: I side with the Warden!
Ban #1: I side with the Warden!
Ban #2: I side with the Warden!
Ban #3: I side with Loghain!
Ban#4: I side with the Warden!
Arl something: I side with the Warden
etc.

Loghain: Traitors, deserters, all of you! Who protected this land, who stopped your wives from being raped? Who... yadi ya....
PC: Call of your men, let's settle this honorably.
<terms of the duel are announced>
Loghain beats the warden in a duel.
Arl Woolfe: All hail Loghain!
Ban #1: All hail Loghain
Ban #2: All hail Loghain
Ban #3: All hail Loghain
Ban #4: All hail Loghain
Arl something: All Hail Loghain.

See the point? It makes no sense. What was the point of the vote? It can go the opposite way as well. The entire landsmeet sides with Loghain, Warden calls for a duel and wins, then suddenly everyone worships the Warden.

The reason?
Because if they didn't have the landsmeet vote (which was not needed anyway)
You could have just marched straight to Denerim after Ostagar, stood outside the palace, and challenged Loghain to a duel for control of the kings armies to fight the blight. You win the duel, then go around collecting an army without the threat of loghain and having everyone support you.

Heck, why is there a civil war? Just challenge Loghain to a duel, since that is how things are settled.

/end-rant of my own.

[Sialater]

The plan was hatched by Flemeth, right? And we all know Flemeth
meant Morrigan harm to begin with. How can I trust that Morrigan knows
what's good for her?

Also that?  Is funnier than hell.

[Sialater]

fantasypisces wrote...

Sialater wrote...

Actually, from what I remember of my Medieval literature classes in grad school, the way Landsmeet is decided is not necessarily barbaric. It was decided the same way it would have been decided in Celtic lands, in Germanic lands, in Norse culture and yes, even the Greeks and Romans did it. Trial by jury is an incredibly RECENT invention.

And if you think your ending sucked, try being a non-human or mage for whom the love of your life Alistair sacrificed himself.

I think his point, and mine as well, is why bother calling a landsmeet, and having a vote if the entire thing is going to end in a duel anyway.

Arl Woolfe: I side with the Warden!
Ban #1: I side with the Warden!
Ban #2: I side with the Warden!
Ban #3: I side with Loghain!
Ban#4: I side with the Warden!
Arl something: I side with the Warden
etc.

Loghain: Traitors, deserters, all of you! Who protected this land, who stopped your wives from being raped? Who... yadi ya....
PC: Call of your men, let's settle this honorably.

Loghain beats the warden in a duel.
Arl Woolfe: All hail Loghain!
Ban #1: All hail Loghain
Ban #2: All hail Loghain
Ban #3: All hail Loghain
Ban #4: All hail Loghain
Arl something: All Hail Loghain.

See the point? It makes no sense. What was the point of the vote? It can go the opposite way as well. The entire landsmeet sides with Loghain, Warden calls for a duel and wins, then suddenly everyone worships the Warden.

The reason?
Because if they didn't have the landsmeet vote (which was not needed anyway)
You could have just marched straight to Denerim after Ostagar, stood outside the palace, and challenged Loghain to a duel for control of the kings armies to fight the blight. You win the duel, then go around collecting an army without the threat of loghain and having everyone support you.

Heck, why is there a civil war? Just challenge Loghain to a duel, since that is how things are settled.

/end-rant of my own.

Morrigan kinda suggest that, if you remember.  And at your level in Lothering, he'd mop the floor with you.

[fantasypisces]

But in the story the levels are used purely as a game feature. Because of scaling, I always assumed you were that powerful (i.e. you are as powerful in your origin as you are when you fight the archdemon). Levels are simply a game-mechanic. A good example is it takes just as long to kill a level 3 Hurlock as it does to kill a level 20 Hurlock. When you are equal level as that hurlock, that is.

Anyway, I'm saying, if this was a fiction book and not a game, because the vote is worthless you would just go straight to Denerim and challenge him, hehe.

Modifié par fantasypisces, 01 janvier 2010 - 02:06 .

[Sialater]

fantasypisces wrote...

But in the story the levels are used purely as a game feature. Because of scaling, I always assumed you were that powerful (i.e. you are as powerful in your origin as you are when you fight the archdemon). Levels are simply a game-mechanic. A good example is it takes just as long to kill a level 3 Hurlock as it does to kill a level 20 Hurlock. When you are equal level as that hurlock, that is.

Anyway, I'm saying, if this was a fiction book and not a game, because the vote is worthless you would just go straight to Denerim and challenge him, hehe.

Yeah, cause that's why the "white" labeled hurlocks go down with one hit in the end of the game and the "yellows" take at least three, whereas you needed healing pots at level 7.

[MonkeyChief117]

fantasypisces wrote...

But in the story the levels are used purely as a game feature. Because of scaling, I always assumed you were that powerful (i.e. you are as powerful in your origin as you are when you fight the archdemon). Levels are simply a game-mechanic. A good example is it takes just as long to kill a level 3 Hurlock as it does to kill a level 20 Hurlock. When you are equal level as that hurlock, that is.

Anyway, I'm saying, if this was a fiction book and not a game, because the vote is worthless you would just go straight to Denerim and challenge him, hehe.

You're assuming however that if Loghain won the duel, everyone would side with him - which is a guess. i prefer to believe that if Loghain killed the warden, all the other banns and arls would rush him and beat the **** out of him.

Modifié par MonkeyChief117, 01 janvier 2010 - 02:11 .

[Sialater]

MonkeyChief117 wrote...

fantasypisces wrote...

But in the story the levels are used purely as a game feature. Because of scaling, I always assumed you were that powerful (i.e. you are as powerful in your origin as you are when you fight the archdemon). Levels are simply a game-mechanic. A good example is it takes just as long to kill a level 3 Hurlock as it does to kill a level 20 Hurlock. When you are equal level as that hurlock, that is.

Anyway, I'm saying, if this was a fiction book and not a game, because the vote is worthless you would just go straight to Denerim and challenge him, hehe.

You're assuming however that if Loghain won the duel, everyone would side with him - which is a guess. i prefer to believe that if Loghain killed the warden, all the other banns and arls would rush him and beat the **** out of him.

Depends, is the PC the Cousland or the elf/dwarf/mage?

[fantasypisces]

Sialater wrote...

fantasypisces wrote...

But in the story the levels are used purely as a game feature. Because of scaling, I always assumed you were that powerful (i.e. you are as powerful in your origin as you are when you fight the archdemon). Levels are simply a game-mechanic. A good example is it takes just as long to kill a level 3 Hurlock as it does to kill a level 20 Hurlock. When you are equal level as that hurlock, that is.

Anyway, I'm saying, if this was a fiction book and not a game, because the vote is worthless you would just go straight to Denerim and challenge him, hehe.

Yeah, cause that's why the "white" labeled hurlocks go down with one hit in the end of the game and the "yellows" take at least three, whereas you needed healing pots at level 7.

Yeah that is the only real thing that would go against me, hehe.
But if we took it from that fact (healing pots at 7 to one-shotting everything in the end) then we went from a common soldier to god-like in the period of one year. I kind of like my theory a bit more, but nothing wrong with seeing it the other way.

But that does want me to play the whole "storming in through the gates" part again.

[MonkeyChief117]

Sialater wrote...

MonkeyChief117 wrote...

fantasypisces wrote...

But in the story the levels are used purely as a game feature. Because of scaling, I always assumed you were that powerful (i.e. you are as powerful in your origin as you are when you fight the archdemon). Levels are simply a game-mechanic. A good example is it takes just as long to kill a level 3 Hurlock as it does to kill a level 20 Hurlock. When you are equal level as that hurlock, that is.

Anyway, I'm saying, if this was a fiction book and not a game, because the vote is worthless you would just go straight to Denerim and challenge him, hehe.

You're assuming however that if Loghain won the duel, everyone would side with him - which is a guess. i prefer to believe that if Loghain killed the warden, all the other banns and arls would rush him and beat the **** out of him.

Depends, is the PC the Cousland or the elf/dwarf/mage?

PC was a Cousland and i had 5/6 arls on my side - plus i had the rest of my team there as well - ohgren would have just headbutt Loghain's crotch if the PC was killed

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

That and the 100+ army lead by no doubt a boss elite (orange) loghain, boss (orange) cauthrien, lieutenant, boss (orange) Arl Rendon Howe, lieutenant (yellow) Kylon and insert about 100 soldiers (whites).



I think your party of you, Sten, morrigan, Leliana, Alastair and Wardog would be dead within a minute if you tried to take on that army straight after Lothering.

[*Di]

Nice opening post. Well thought out, with valid points that I actually agree with. From Landsmeet on, the PC was given "options" that in many cases totally destroyed relationships that had been nourished through 100 hours of gameplay (I take my time, lol). I too tried to play a good character, which meant that someone I cared about was likely to have bad stuff happen to him, particularly if I refuse Morrigan's vulgar proposal. And it was vulgar. I really am disappointed that the only option for potential happiness for a good character was to engage in a truly evil act. I honestly don't know what the writers were thinking there.



Several choices had horrible consequences... having to murder two of your companions, for example (although my good character wouldn't have considered defiling the ashes). But losing Alistair forever through a simple act of mercy... Alistair, Grey Warden and duty to the bone, simply charging away from a blight in a fit of temper because the woman he loves didn't commit cold blooded murder? Then he ends up a drunk on the streets? Good lord, talk about a complete and instant lobotomy... it must have been, because he turned against everything that he believed in.



Besides, the whole joining ritual with Logain was a WTF moment, since Riordan had already said he didn't know how to perform the ritual when asked earlier. But suddenly the archdemon blood that had been destroyed in Ostagar had suddenly reappeared, and Riordan's memory returned, along with this stunning new option?? I'm not getting this. It's illogical and is a "huh?" moment for me that breaks immersion.



Don't get me wrong, I adore this game. It's the best game since BG2 in my opinion. But the ending gotchas and the grueling, obnoxious end-game battle after battle after battle after... *sigh*

Not the game's most shining moments.



Anyway, I enjoyed reading all of the posts in this thread, seeing how others interpreted some of the points that really bothered me the most.

[fantasypisces]

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...

That and the 100+ army lead by no doubt a boss elite (orange) loghain, boss (orange) cauthrien, lieutenant, boss (orange) Arl Rendon Howe, lieutenant (yellow) Kylon and insert about 100 soldiers (whites).

I think your party of you, Sten, morrigan, Leliana, Alastair and Wardog would be dead within a minute if you tried to take on that army straight after Lothering.

You are not taking on the army, you are challenging him to a duel.

[fantasypisces]

Di wrote...

Nice opening post. Well thought out, with valid points that I actually agree with. From Landsmeet on, the PC was given "options" that in many cases totally destroyed relationships that had been nourished through 100 hours of gameplay (I take my time, lol). I too tried to play a good character, which meant that someone I cared about was likely to have bad stuff happen to him, particularly if I refuse Morrigan's vulgar proposal. And it was vulgar. I really am disappointed that the only option for potential happiness for a good character was to engage in a truly evil act. I honestly don't know what the writers were thinking there.

Several choices had horrible consequences... having to murder two of your companions, for example (although my good character wouldn't have considered defiling the ashes). But losing Alistair forever through a simple act of mercy... Alistair, Grey Warden and duty to the bone, simply charging away from a blight in a fit of temper because the woman he loves didn't commit cold blooded murder? Then he ends up a drunk on the streets? Good lord, talk about a complete and instant lobotomy... it must have been, because he turned against everything that he believed in.

Besides, the whole joining ritual with Logain was a WTF moment, since Riordan had already said he didn't know how to perform the ritual when asked earlier. But suddenly the archdemon blood that had been destroyed in Ostagar had suddenly reappeared, and Riordan's memory returned, along with this stunning new option?? I'm not getting this. It's illogical and is a "huh?" moment for me that breaks immersion.

Don't get me wrong, I adore this game. It's the best game since BG2 in my opinion. But the ending gotchas and the grueling, obnoxious end-game battle after battle after battle after... *sigh*
Not the game's most shining moments.

Anyway, I enjoyed reading all of the posts in this thread, seeing how others interpreted some of the points that really bothered me the most.

Another person claiming it was a wholly evil act.
Am I the only one who thought it was not evil?

[SeanMurphy2]

I don't think you have the status to challenge Loghain to a duel early in the game.

Later you have Arl Eamon's support, Alistair has a slight claim to the throne, Loghain has a lower reputation and you have used the treaties.

Maybe the Ser Landry encounter was the developers introducing the idea of a duel unanimously settling a dispute.

Modifié par SeanMurphy2, 01 janvier 2010 - 03:24 .

[spiderfarmer]

Yeah, the "wait...where did the archdemon blood come from" was one of those "erm?" moments for me too.

[Chris H. Fleming]

I agree that it made no sense to be presented with a starkly dichotomous decision between killing or inducting Loghain.



I was also peeved about Riordan informing you that a Grey Warden had to die to kill the ArchDemon, but not for the same reason as you. I was annoyed because from moment he let that slip I KNEW the writers would have him die prematurely in battle. I'm not a person that enjoys predictable plot twists or heavy-handed foreshadowing. But I suppose that's just a matter of taste.



The other stuff didn't bother me so much. Your Morgan getting pregnant was probably a bug. My Alistair died mysteriously in battle and my Loghain came back from the dead, so I think the ending sequence is fairly bug prone.

[just.a.dude]

fantasypisces wrote...

....

Another person claiming it was a wholly evil act.
Am I the only one who thought it was not evil?

Dude, it was totally unnatural. I mean, come on, it is not that hard to see. Morrigan, raised by Flemeth, who takes over the bodies of her own daughters to prolong her own life, wants a baby with the soul of an old god. It is a classic deal with the devil moment.

Modifié par just.a.dude, 01 janvier 2010 - 03:47 .

[Sialater]

fantasypisces wrote...

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...

That and the 100+ army lead by no doubt a boss elite (orange) loghain, boss (orange) cauthrien, lieutenant, boss (orange) Arl Rendon Howe, lieutenant (yellow) Kylon and insert about 100 soldiers (whites).

I think your party of you, Sten, morrigan, Leliana, Alastair and Wardog would be dead within a minute if you tried to take on that army straight after Lothering.

You are not taking on the army, you are challenging him to a duel.

You have to get to him first.

[fchopin]

I agree that the end of the game was rushed, it felled to me that bioware said OK, the game is now finished so we are going to force you to the end as quick as possible with not many options.



I lost my mage because i said no to her not realising that she would not fight the dragon with me so i was left without my main mage but killed the dragon easily and also did the other missions without an army.



The ending seemed a bit pointless to me as i expected a much bigger epilogue, something in the order of a big fight with darkspon involving all the armies and then the dragon ending.

[tmp7704]

kenelis wrote...

 What's next, will my manhood shrivel up and fall off from the taint?

Actually, yes. Sorry about that.

(that's why Morrigan can't do the deed with Riordan, obviously)

[KCat]

fantasypisces wrote...

Another person claiming it was a wholly evil act.
Am I the only one who thought it was not evil?

I didn't. I found it almost honorable. Yeah, her being all secretive and stuff and leaving afterward forever-and-ever was a bit of a flag-raiser, but in the end, what was she trying to do? Preserve an untainted old god.. just imagine what the world could learn from it. In addition, neither you/Alistair/Loghain would have to die.

To the OP: good points and valid criticisms. However, it was known well beforehand that Ferelden/Thedas was a barbaric society, and that good doesn't always win in the end. If you put the world in perspective, it's entirely possible to play a "good" character and have a happy ending, though. For example:

My character was a Circle Mage elf. He didn't try to do undue harm to those that didn't deserve it, and would go out of his way to help people (helped Redcliffe, sided with Harrowmont (seemed to work out okay; he was eventually killed, but that's dwarven society for you..) and cured the werewolves). There were times he had to make sacrifices, yeah.. namely I sacrificed Isolde because I didn't believe running to the mages would've worked all that well, but I had trust in Jowan that things would work since he used to be a good friend; that trust was rewarded (I saved Connor) and I even tried to let him go free, but Eamon wouldn't do more than turning him over to the Circle (like to believe the Circle took mercy since he seemed honestly repentant, but they never say). I also had to kill Loghain, but the only other choice I had was conscripting him, and that wouldn't have worked out well given his xenophobia and the Wardens' lack of loyalty to any given country or king.

But ultimately it all worked out in the end. Anora became queen and she ruled quite well. Alistair happily stayed and helped rebuild the Wardens. I (having taken the Dark Ritual, see above for why) stayed with Alistair to help, and even my bf Zevran stayed with me. Leliana and Sten left, but they were still pretty happy. Oghren was fairly happy and impressed with the surface world. And Wynne was offered and took a position in the castle.. she ended up being the first mage to have a significant position in the caste court in a long time, and she took due pride in that.

Morrigan did indeed leave, but I was never very tied to her.. she was a "friend" of sorts, but as long as she was doing what she wanted and not burninating the country side, it was good enough for me.

[SeanMurphy2]

I think it would be good to have a group discussion after the Landsmeet. It could be an opportunity for the devs to explain some of the logic of what just happened. And for players to vent.

Each of the companions could offer their perspective on why Alistair left and whether they think he was right to do so. Some could explain how the duel is a traditional Ferelden way of deciding issues. Or why Loghain could not have been sent to prison.

It also gives the player an opportunity to express how they feel about Alistair's behaviour. Or about Anora, Loghain, Riordan or how the Landsmeet was conducted.

Modifié par SeanMurphy2, 01 janvier 2010 - 07:17 .

[goat_fab]

 I completely disagree with you. Here's some comments I'd like to throw in (TEXT HEAVY)00000:
"Hey, I have an idea. Why don't we throw the guy who managed to scrounge together TWO mercenary armies, usurp TWO thrones, deal Elven slaves, poison one arl, and overthrow another arl into a tower where he'll be surrounded by soldiers he's hired, who are surrounded by us and the darkspawn! Yeah! Let's drain valuable soldiers from our armies to guard this guy who'll probably just get off the hook anyway, seeing as his daughter is the queen." Yeah, good idea.

The term "with child" does not mean someone is carrying a child. It means the person (hopefully a woman) is pregnant.

Do you know why you couldn't persuade Alistair from killing Loghain? Because Loghain tried to murder Alistair's adoptive father, killed his real father, and his mentor. Pretty sure you'd be pissed as well.

The second option for Loghain is there so you can A. Have him be destroyed by the Joining, B. Have him destroyed by the darkspawn, or C. Have him destroyed by the Archdemon. Besides, if you'd have paid attention, Loghain seemed to realize his failures and accepted death willingly.

Riordan figured you already knew about the whole Archdemon spirit possession thing.

Scenario: "Alright guys, I know about 90% of you are brand new Wardens but you're going to be fighting the darkspawn soon. We still have about an hour to go before they get here so I need to tell you something. Whoever kills the Archdemon will have the Archdemon's soul rip into their body, destroying both. ....Guys?

So, you'd rather leave an entire nation and quite probably several other countries destroyed just so you and your BFF don't have to die? QQ more.

It's that country's own damn fault for banning the Wardens. Besides, we've been told that every country allows, and even honors, the Grey Wardens.

Yeah, the Wardens do have "special Blight killing training". Well, it's not really training but they do have the darkspawn taint in them. There's no special way of "killing" the Blight. The only thing that would happen is that one of the darkspawn would be taken over by the spirit of the Archdemon, turn into a dragon, and continue to go through this cycle until a Grey Warden shows up.

Because the point of the Wardens is NOT to redeem yourself. Ever wonder why there were only 4 new recruits at Ostagar? Because only the best are selected. If you read the books, you'd know that Duncan was taken in after killing a Grey Warden.

My character loved Morrigan, and I let her do the whole thing with the baby. Do you know why? Because I loved her. I (my character) wanted to live to see her and the child again. Morrigan is extremely powerful (at least, in my game she was). She knows what she's doing. Btw, it's not preserving the soul of an Archdemon. It's preserving the soul of an Old God.

...seriously? You're talking about embryonic development and baby heartbeats? Really? Let's totally forget that MORRIGAN IS A GOD DAMN WITCH. Oh and the whole MAGIC portion of this game. There's also the dragons, darkspawn, giant mutated spiders, elves, dwarves, etc.

She doesn't understand society, so she needs a guide? Hell, if that were the case you'd have to hand out guides to every teenager on the planet.

The love of your life is staring into your eyes. In a few hours, you'll be fighting for her life, your life, and the life of a nation. It's almost guaranteed that you will die. Yet, she offers you a way out. She offers you a child, your life (or whoever strikes that final blow), and the knowledge that you might be able to see them again someday. Your mad because you can't argue against that? Nice. Let us not forget that Morrigan doesn't always say what she means. She told me that she can't love, she doesn't want love, and she acted all uppity *cough*****y*cough* at first. Despite this, she professed her love for me and if you play through again you'll realize she isn't as emo/loner as she acts. Some of the dialog choices you have when you get out of Ostagar with her has Morrigan make a mean remark, her mother snaps at her to leave, and Morrigan saddens (only for a minute, mind you), studders, and apologizes.

"Alright, let's see. Our armies are outnumbered by a ratio of 3:1, we have all of 12 mages, and 3 Wardens. They have a giant, badass dragon that is the key to the war. I'm sitting in this tower. I could throw a handful of dust off of this tower and cover 209348 darkspawn. I'm just going to go ahead and assume that 2 (or 1, depending on party choices) new Wardens are going to muscle their entire way through a city of flesh eating hell creatures to help me fight this thing. I guess I won't do my best to kill this dragon that I have a shot at killing." /Riordansuicide.

A good character would choose one of those three options. Do you know why? BECAUSE THOSE ARE THE ONLY CHOICES YOU HAVE.

I'm sorry, but you're disappointed that Bioware managed to create an AMAZING game that didn't have the stereotypical "Called it!" ending? I was expecting a "You're our hero. Grats." ending that you'd get in almost every RPG ever. Nope. I get blind sided with a Greek tragedy type-deal. I freaking loved it.

I'm done.

Modifié par WhiteRaevan, 01 janvier 2010 - 08:04 .

[ShadowAldrius]

fantasypisces wrote...

You are not taking on the army, you are challenging him to a duel.

Who are you to challenge Loghain? The man's a war hero, his daughter is the queen, he is much beloved by the people for leading a war effort against foreign oppressors. He was the equally beloved King Maric's best friend. Every action he has ever taken in his life has been for the good of Fereldan.

Why would Loghain agree to duel you? If you challenged him, he'd probably just tell you to ****** off. He has no reason to acquiese to that request. You're a grey warden recruit, and at best you have Maric's bastard son and an apostate mage on your side. After you revive Arl Eamond (someone who can actually DO something about Loghain), he counsels you to be patient, and advises you on what course of action you should take. Which is what winds up happening.

Dueling Loghain at the beginning of the game would accomplish absolutely nothing. The whole point is that the Landsmeet was deadlocked, they couldn't come to an agreement so they figured the most honorable and bloodless way to decide the contention was for the champions of both factions to duel one another. It came about because of specific cirumstances, it was not the only factor that was taken into account.

As for the rest of it, I appreciate the moral ambiguity. And I wouldn't say the Bioware writers including that intentionally makes them bad writers. It may not have been the story you wanted to play through, but that doesn't make it necessarily bad writing.

Me? I kinda dislike the ending. Just feels very anticlimactic after the battle with the Archdemon, and I felt there could have been a bit more to it. (A bit more of the denoument as it were.) But I don't think it's a bad ending, perse, I just felt, and would have appreciated it if it had been a bit more exciting I suppose. Even showing the scene where the Warden greets the crowd would have been cool.