74 réponses à ce sujet

[*Di]

Er... great. Your experience was not my experience. I think the whole Morrigan sleeping with Alistair thing was vulgar, crass, and disgusting. Glad you think a good character would choose an obvious evil act to save him/herself and the one he/she loves... but that's not how I saw it. It was vulgar, repulsive and frankly disgusting. I don't care if the hero died; I do care if the hero turned into a damned pimp because of a bunch of "gotcha" scenarios that the writers created, giggling, and that the player couldn't possibly predict because the player was deliberately misled for no other reason than frustration and shock value. Glad you "freaking loved it". I freaking hated it, especially since you had no option than replaying 5 hours of utterly boring, repetitive battles to change the "gotcha" end game. It was pathetic.



I'm done.

[Realmzmaster]

Levels in a RPG are just a way of measuring a character's progress and gaining of experience in fighting the enemy. It is like a sniper the more targets I kill the better I get at it. Also my reputation increases. The same with a soldier you start off as a raw recruit, the more action you see the more seasoned you become until you are a killing machine.

Riordan action is not a WTF moment. The archdemon was flying. Riordan needed to bring him down. If he killed him in the process all the better. By damaging the wing he made sure the Archdemon could not just fly away and direct the darkspawn. You will notice that on the tower the archdemon can only fly for short distances when before it could soar through the air with no trouble. It cannot achieve long sustained flight otherwise your PC could never touch it. I knew that the final blow would be done by one of the two Grey Wardens present thoughout the game. (Makes for a more gut reching ending). I thought the twist with Loghain was intertesting.

If Bioware had allowed you to take Riordan along with you everyone would be letting him take the final blow, because they invested so much time in the other characters.

Alistair makes it perfectly clear he wants to see Loghain dead. So letting Loghain live and become a Grey Warden was the ultimate betrayal as far as Alistair is concerned.

You do not have the right to challenge Loghain to a duel at the beginning, your PC has not proven itself. Duel him based on what charges that you can prove. Everything at Ostagar is speculation as far as the other nobles are concerned. But by uncovering deeds that he has done to other arl's relatives you build a case. It gives you enough street cred to challenge him. Not counting the fact that a snowball had a better chance in a roraring fire than your PC has of defeating Loghain at your low level when leaving Lothering.

As far a as where they get Archdemon blood from, it was collected from the last Archdemon and kept in storage.

Loghain could not be sent to prison because he is still the Queen's regent. Only the Queen or the winner of an honorable duel could decide his fate. The other way is if Loghain refuses to duel thus losing his honor. He would then be seen as not fit to be regent. The Queen is his daughter, she is not going to order his execution. Loghain could explain away all of his actions by stating it was for the good of Ferelden. Also Loghain still has a considerable following and an army under his command. A duel is seen as an honorable way to settle disputes once the charges have been leveled and evidence presented. Remember the Landsmeet is not a court of law. There is no democracy otherwise the people would be voting for arls and other leaders.

[NinjaWJ]

The TC has very valid points that are backed up. I too somewhat feel the ending was a bit rushed. I got the Landsmeet supporting me but then i have to do a duel to decide the outcome. Also when i saw Riordan on top of that building i knew he was gonna die. Thats kinda stupid how he would take on the drgaon one on one

[Realmzmaster]

Why is taking on a dragon one on one stupid? According to legend St. George did it and won. Many stories are written about single characters defeating dragons. Why it is the stuff legends are made of.

Even in modern times you have the equivalent of soldiers taking on tanks single handed, rushing up and throwing grenades into the slits or into pillboxes or running across open battlefields to take out the enemy.

Sometimes you have to evaluate the situation and make your move. Riordan was at the right place at the right time to jump on the dragon. Who knows if another opportunity would present itself.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Have faith, mods will add more options in the future. I for one will add a option to throw Loghain in jail and have him executed after the blight buisness....or leave his fate up to the Landsmeet (who will execute him if he turns against them)

[Xandurpein]

I can sympathize with the feeling that the whole Landsmeet becomes non-event as the voting is meaningless, it all comes down to the duel or fight with Loghain. There is two answers to that really. The first on is, as many pointed out, Ferelden is a barbaric society. You still need political clout to be heard at the Landsmeet, but the ultimate arbiter is sometimes the sword.

The real reason is of course the game logic. It's the same as in Neverwinter Nights 2. The player has to be given a good fight. We want to win the game, and winning through navigating dialogue tree isn't as satisfying as through a difficult fight. Imagine for example Mass Effect; if the game had been over when Shepard persuades Saren to shoot himself. Wouldn't that had felt like a huge letdown?

As for getting a tragedy, when you hoped for a happy ending, I can understand your feelings even if I feel differently. I think it's the fact that you cannot get a perfect happy ending and the whatever you choose you have to pay a price is what makes the game so awesome.

Regarding the relative merit of different choices, like letting Loghain live or not. All you have to browse through the threads here on the forum to realize that there simply is no such thing as an accepted yardstick of who was more evil than whom and what choice is the good choice in almost any major choice in the game. It's up to you, when you play, to decide what is the good outcome and what price are you willing to pay to achieve it. The fact that the game does NOT tell you if yuor choices are good or evil, but let's you make up your mind yourself is just another reason why it's so awesome I think.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 01 janvier 2010 - 01:21 .

[Xandurpein]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Have faith, mods will add more options in the future. I for one will add a option to throw Loghain in jail and have him executed after the blight buisness....or leave his fate up to the Landsmeet (who will execute him if he turns against them)

Actually I think that Loghain will never see a prison, even if the player has the chance to have him thrown into jail. The players power to arbiter the situation is over as soon as the new King/Queen is choosen. As soon as that happens it's the new ruler who decides over Loghain's fate. There are three possible outcomes:

1. Alistair becomes King. The outcome to this is easy to predict. Alistair immediatly orders Loghain's execution.
2. Anora becomes Queen. This is also relativly predictable. Anora will go ahead with Riordan's suggestion and let Loghain become a Grey Warden.
3. Alistair is betrothed to Anora. This would in all likelihood lead to a huge row between Alistair and Anora. Possibly it will break up the marriage, forcing the player to choose between Alistair and Anora (leading to either 1 or 2 above) or  possibly Alistair will preepmt the decision and chop Loghain's head off before anyone can stop him.
The worst possible outcome would probably be 3, but Alistair and Anora are still bound to marry each other, because now the King and Queen hates each other.

Either way, Loghain will hardly make it into his prison cell, before his fate is sealed one way ot the other.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 01 janvier 2010 - 02:09 .

[tomas819]

 Kenelis, while I disagree with you in some particulars, I absolutely agree with you about the ending(s) overall.

If you want to play this game as someone with honor and decency, you have no choice but to "fall on your sword and die" at the end. I think that's pretty lame.

Your other options (1) the Morrigan option, (2) the Alistair option, and (3) the Loghain option are all repugnant to me for the following reasons. Option 1 is cowardly ("Yes, I'll just sacrifice my progeny to some sneaky, slimy power-grab tactic of Morrigan's to save my own skin"). Option 2 is weak ("I am a noble honorable person, but I want my good friend Alistair here to die to I can ... save my skin"). Option 3, in my opinion, is the worst of the three ("I am going to enlist a "dead meat" warden so he can die and I can ... save my skin"). From a logic standpoint, this is ridiculous. Why enlist Loghain when you could just as easily enlist dozens of other more decent and honorable candidate NPCs who were all standing about? Ser Perth? Osywn and the bazillion other nobles and good guys in Denerim and Redcliffe, etc.? Why not Murdock? Heck, even Lloyd the oily tavernkeeper. I mean, come on! Riordan could have created a veritable army of Grey Wardens right then and there. Why Loghain and him alone?

Yeccch.

I was deeply disappointed by these "options". Creative writers could have offered an "honorable option" that didn't involve suicide. I have suggested one in another thread here. But really, any would have sufficed. My suggestion would have been, basically, for some unknown new and mysterious NPC (in my scenario, a mysterious Tevinter mage who had been keeping nervous tabs on Morrigan/Flemeth) to offer a PC who had refused Morrigan's deal another option -- a way of surviving the "archdemon's death blow" fire blast -- in exchange for a promise to collaborate in tracking down (and presumably destroying) Morrigan, thus setting up a dynamic wherein Morrigan is the archvillain (or not!) in the next campaign.

Anyway, while I enjoyed the game immensely, I agree with the OP that the ending options were lame.

Modifié par tomas819, 01 janvier 2010 - 03:24 .

[just.a.dude]

I had no problem with the choices at the end. Depending on how you rped you character, one will fit. My decidedly good Dalish Elf made the Ultimate Sacrifice, while my revenge driven noble will have designs on the throne and see the best way to ensure everyone's fealty is to enlist Loghain and let him die the hero. My mage took Morrigans offer because, in my opinion, she would be more open to such things, feeling, maybe wrongly so, that she could defend herself against the child.

Sure if you are good there is no getting around the dying. Maybe it was how I interpreted the Dalish origin story and was influenced by the scene where you leave your clan, but when Riordan gave me the lowdown on what it took to kill the archdemon it was clear to me what my character would do. What was great about it was how much I wanted to accept Morrigans offer, but could not bring myself to do it. Copmbined with the origin story the sacrifice my character made made the ending where the Keeper says "She was our daughter, our sister before she was your hero." all the more moving.

That is what I found to be the best thing about this game, it had a moving story.

Modifié par just.a.dude, 01 janvier 2010 - 04:37 .

[ejoslin]

tomas819 wrote...

 Kenelis, while I disagree with you in some particulars, I absolutely agree with you about the ending(s) overall.

If you want to play this game as someone with honor and decency, you have no choice but to "fall on your sword and die" at the end. I think that's pretty lame.

Your other options (1) the Morrigan option, (2) the Alistair option, and (3) the Loghain option are all repugnant to me for the following reasons. Option 1 is cowardly ("Yes, I'll just sacrifice my progeny to some sneaky, slimy power-grab tactic of Morrigan's to save my own skin"). Option 2 is weak ("I am a noble honorable person, but I want my good friend Alistair here to die to I can ... save my skin"). Option 3, in my opinion, is the worst of the three ("I am going to enlist a "dead meat" warden so he can die and I can ... save my skin"). From a logic standpoint, this is ridiculous. Why enlist Loghain when you could just as easily enlist dozens of other more decent and honorable candidate NPCs who were all standing about? Ser Perth? Osywn and the bazillion other nobles and good guys in Denerim and Redcliffe, etc.? Why not Murdock? Heck, even Lloyd the oily tavernkeeper. I mean, come on! Riordan could have created a veritable army of Grey Wardens right then and there. Why Loghain and him alone?

Yeccch.

I was deeply disappointed by these "options". Creative writers could have offered an "honorable option" that didn't involve suicide. I have suggested one in another thread here. But really, any would have sufficed. My suggestion would have been, basically, for some unknown new and mysterious NPC (in my scenario, a mysterious Tevinter mage who had been keeping nervous tabs on Morrigan/Flemeth) to offer a PC who had refused Morrigan's deal another option -- a way of surviving the "archdemon's death blow" fire blast -- in exchange for a promise to collaborate in tracking down (and presumably destroying) Morrigan, thus setting up a dynamic wherein Morrigan is the archvillain (or not!) in the next campaign.

Anyway, while I enjoyed the game immensely, I agree with the OP that the ending options were lame.

The suicide is not a very honorable option in all cases, seeing how it destroys your romance partner, with the exception of King Alistair I suppose (Alistair not king is destroyed as well, though).  I don't think ti's about honor -- there's not much honorable about the gray wardens.  It's about the harsh decisions and reality of a very ugly situation in a not-perfect world.

Edit: There's a lot of times in the game you're forced to not be honorable, but to try to make the least-bad of decisions.  Redcliff castle is one -- all the choices there still bother me so much. Tthough now I know that there are no repercussions for going to the mage circle, when you don't know that, how can you make a moral choice?  Or interfering with Orzammar at all levels, including religion.  Is it better to weaken their existing beliefs so there will be more charity for the people who need it most?  Or should you help a girl run away from home?  How about the Anvil.  Is it better to sacrifice a few people to enable a society to rebuild?

Modifié par ejoslin, 01 janvier 2010 - 04:32 .

[Mikka-chan]

The game is meant to be 'dark'. Sometimes the game was more successful in that then others. The realization of what happened to the Elf Elder and what he had done to generations of humans in return is pretty awful, in my opinion: the fact that basically everyone can be saved and happy happy joy joy makes it less. Likewise, the whole Conner deal: what happened to the boy and what the demon did it somewhat tragic, although made a lot less so by the realization that there's no consequence for going to the Mage Circle. On the other hand, there is Orzammar. From the golems are made of people/is the anvil worth it to the horrific "dying of something worse then death. betrayal." broodmother deal and seeing what Branka had done to her own house.



The Landsmeet and what happens afterwards goes with what we were promised with Dragon Age. For some people, the choices for easy: for some, the choices are so very difficult that it hurts. Personally? I don't think self-sacrifice is a horrible ending; it's admirable, in some ways. Horrible that it happens, but it says a lot about the person who does it- they did not ask for such an ending, they did not ask for such a choice, they did volunteer to die in such a way, but to save the country, they do it. Rather then make petty and dangerous decisions, or force another to stand in their place.

Remember that Loghain confiscated the archdemon blood needed for the gray warden ceremony: that's why Riordan can't go around creating other Gray Wardens, and I see no reason why a man about to be executed would give you the blood. Now, I suppose you could lie to Loghain, convince him that you're about to induct him, get the blood, kill him, and go around grabbing random people and forcing the mixture down their throat (remember that 50% or so survival rate when you're going around trying to find all those decent and honorable people to sacrifice instead of yourself!), but... that seems a bit much.

Morrigan's offer is, I think, as close to dues ex machina as the writers were willing to go. I'm sure it's not creativity that prevented them from offering another choice. I mean, they could have had Andrasae and the Maker jump out of the sky and do a 's'okay, kids, we'll handle this !!!' routine, or, sure, a mysterious Televinter Mage could appear and totally know how to kill archdemons without anyone dying or their being any form of sacrifice.

It's that the writers felt that an easy no-consequence no-sacrifice ending wouldn't suit the story rather then 'they couldn't come up with anything better'.

I totally understand not liking the choices you're offered: I don't think you're meant to really 'like' them emotionally... like them in a 'it suits the story' way, but not in a 'oh wow what happy yay wonderful choices! ' way. Thinking that there should have been a choice that allows a happy every after for everyone seems a bit naive, though. Happily Ever After With Easy Decisions is not the theme of the game- in fact, I'd say it's almost the opposite.

[fantasypisces]

Wow, everyone really jumped on my duel statement. I realize you don't have the "street cred" to challenge him.



But ultimately who are you in the beginning. A Grey Warden.

Who are you at the end. A Grey Warden.

The only difference is you have gathered an army.



But anyway, my point was simply to state that the whole landsmeet vote was pointless. I realize I would never get to challenge him to a duel in the beginning, but that was not the point. The point was the vote is pointless.



Heck really all you would have to do is save Eamon and have him petition to put Alistair on the throne. That's the only real thing in the game that makes a difference, Alistair is heir he has a right to challenge for it. But that is me getting sidetracked again.



You all simply missed my point, the vote was completely un-needed because in the end is doesn't matter who they vote for, the decision comes down to a duel.



For my Morrigan thing, about why it was not evil (sort of a rehash from the "is it a selfish act" thread). Morrigan is NOT Flemeth. And throughout the game you can see Morrigan changing, she comes to understand friendship, to understand love, things Flemeth has ignored for centuries. Morrigan is giving birth to an old-god, not to the archdemon. What she uses that for is unclear. Maybe she will try to overtake the Chantry (in which case, I'm all for, all of my characters hate the Chantry).



I do not think she will try to possess the body because then HER soul will take over and the Old-God soul will cease to exist. Morrigan says that when she reveals Flemeth wants to possess her: "I will cease to exist -- I'm not going to wait around like an empty sack". That is my understanding, but I can certainly see how some might think it to be evil.

[Xandurpein]

fantasypisces wrote...

But anyway, my point was simply to state that the whole landsmeet vote was pointless. I realize I would never get to challenge him to a duel in the beginning, but that was not the point. The point was the vote is pointless.

Heck really all you would have to do is save Eamon and have him petition to put Alistair on the throne. That's the only real thing in the game that makes a difference, Alistair is heir he has a right to challenge for it. But that is me getting sidetracked again.

I think I tried to explain in my post why there is a vote and then a challenge, but let me expand it. simply put - there has to be challenge for the logic of the game demands a battle to be stasfying. But a fight without the votes is pretty unconvincing too. That's the game logic of it. How can it be justified then?

Think of it like this. The Landsmeet is there to settle important questions, like who becomes the next ruler, if the line of succession is in doubt. The Landsmeet settles this by vote. However, in some instances, particularily when personal honor is at stake, the looser can appeal the vote and demand it to be settled by trial of combat.  Not all parties may even have had the right to settle things by arms. The Landsmeet may not even recognize a challenge. Think this as appealing to the supreme court - you can't go to supreme court unless you first got this thorugh a lower instance. At least that how I think what we see happen can be explained

[fantasypisces]

Xandurpein wrote...

fantasypisces wrote...

But anyway, my point was simply to state that the whole landsmeet vote was pointless. I realize I would never get to challenge him to a duel in the beginning, but that was not the point. The point was the vote is pointless.

Heck really all you would have to do is save Eamon and have him petition to put Alistair on the throne. That's the only real thing in the game that makes a difference, Alistair is heir he has a right to challenge for it. But that is me getting sidetracked again.

I think I tried to explain in my post why there is a vote and then a challenge, but let me expand it. simply put - there has to be challenge for the logic of the game demands a battle to be stasfying. But a fight without the votes is pretty unconvincing too. That's the game logic of it. How can it be justified then?

Think of it like this. The Landsmeet is there to settle important questions, like who becomes the next ruler, if the line of succession is in doubt. The Landsmeet settles this by vote. However, in some instances, particularily when personal honor is at stake, the looser can appeal the vote and demand it to be settled by trial of combat.  Not all parties may even have had the right to settle things by arms. The Landsmeet may not even recognize a challenge. Think this as appealing to the supreme court - you can't go to supreme court unless you first got this thorugh a lower instance. At least that how I think what we see happen can be explained

That would make more sense, thanks for explaining it. I always knew the Landsmeet had a purpose, for matters of rule affecting the entire nation, new laws, etc. But the whole duel thing, no matter what happened, seemed sort of contrived.

[AtreiyaN7]

Valid points for the most part. I just disagree vehemently on item a) because while the archdemon is an Old God corrupted by the darkspawn taint, Morrigan's child took on the Old God's pure, uncorrupted essence. About the altruistic good guy deserving a happy ending...the story shows that decisions and choices can be ambiguous and that they don't always lead to positive outcomes.For example, if you put a cutthroat, aka Bhelen, on the throne in Orzammar, it improves the lot of many people. I think it's more interesting when things don't turn out the way you expected. You can have the best of intentions and pick Harrowmont, but dwarven society continue to stagnate as a result.

Personally, I'm glad that things weren't totally cliched. I wonder about the eulogy though (not having sacrificed myself or anything so far) - I thought it was supposed to be pretty moving if you die? I'm pretty sure someone mentioned Oghren naming his first child after you, etc. etc. As for some of the end decisions not being something a "good" person wouldn't do: well, I was kind to lost children, beggars, etc. but I made the deal with Morrigan. Why? Good people can be selfish sometimes. Being good doesn't mean you can't think about yourself on occasion or have a moment of weakness or two - the way I see it, my Warden sacrificed pretty much everything to stop the Blight - if she wants to live out her life with Alistair at that point, then she's entitled & she'll deal with the future fallout (if any).

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 01 janvier 2010 - 11:16 .

[Cavegeta]

kenelis wrote...

-- At Denerim, Riordan gets himself killed by soloing the Archdemon. Seriously, just how STUPID is he????

(Edited those blasted bullet points)

I'm still laughing over this line.  Pretty much felt the same way about that situation and the point about the Judge Dredd legal system Ferelden apparently has.  

[goat_fab]

Di wrote...

Er... great. Your experience was not my experience. I think the whole Morrigan sleeping with Alistair thing was vulgar, crass, and disgusting. Glad you think a good character would choose an obvious evil act to save him/herself and the one he/she loves... but that's not how I saw it. It was vulgar, repulsive and frankly disgusting. I don't care if the hero died; I do care if the hero turned into a damned pimp because of a bunch of "gotcha" scenarios that the writers created, giggling, and that the player couldn't possibly predict because the player was deliberately misled for no other reason than frustration and shock value. Glad you "freaking loved it". I freaking hated it, especially since you had no option than replaying 5 hours of utterly boring, repetitive battles to change the "gotcha" end game. It was pathetic.

I'm done.

Might want to clarify who you're talking to, hun. Kinda confusing.

Anyway, since when is having sex with Morrigan one time turning your character into a pimp? Morrigan never slept with Alistair, so I don't know where you're going with that. How is saving the life of a hero and preventing the continuation of the Blight an "obvious evil act"? I'm sorry, are you mad because the writer's managed to actually create an ending that wasn't predictable? You're mad that you're hand wasn't held all the way to the fairy tale ending of Anora and Alistair eventually falling in love while you and your love cuddle together in a bed n' breakfast? Since when, in real life, has there been a perfect way out of any massive conflict like the Blight? Take WWII, for example. What was the major reason for the ending of the war? Nuclear bombs. Do you believe the Axis (that includes everyone, not just the ****s) would stop with their face-stomping rampage because a general or two was killed by some noble soldier? Even if Hitler was killed it wouldn't have mattered. They had plans in place to continue with the war.

You said, "that the player couldn't possibly predict because the player was deliberately misled for no other reason than frustration and shock value". As opposed to what? Being accidentally misled because you missed some hints earlier, only to hit a wall of predictability and happiness? Hahahahahaha. I was going to add a few more comments but I see no need.

[Realmzmaster]

The duel is not contrived. It is actually one way that people settled their differences all the way up to the 20th century! (Burr-Hamilton comes to mind). The Landsmeet simply allowed the PC to present the evidence against Loghain. If the vote goes against Loghain. He still does not accept the decision. As the Queen's regent the Landsmeet does not have the right to remove him the Queen does. But any one especially the PC can challenge him to a duel for the good of Ferelden. Once your PC issues the challenge Loghain is honor bound to answer it or show himself to be a coward. No coward would be aloowed to lead Ferelden. If you beat Loghain, you now can decide his fate. If you lose well your journey ends. The Landsmeet in this instance sets up the backdrop for your challenge
If you lose the vote, there will be a big fight and the head of the Chantry will call for an end to the bloodshed. A duel will be proposed. The outcome of the duel deciding Ferelden's future.
The Landsmeet may seem a waste of time, butit allows the PC to publicly state why the challenge is being issued. It puts your claims into the public record.

Modifié par Realmzmaster, 02 janvier 2010 - 02:05 .

[*Di]

WhiteRaevan wrote...

Di wrote...

Er... great. Your experience was not my experience. I think the whole Morrigan sleeping with Alistair thing was vulgar, crass, and disgusting. Glad you think a good character would choose an obvious evil act to save him/herself and the one he/she loves... but that's not how I saw it. It was vulgar, repulsive and frankly disgusting. I don't care if the hero died; I do care if the hero turned into a damned pimp because of a bunch of "gotcha" scenarios that the writers created, giggling, and that the player couldn't possibly predict because the player was deliberately misled for no other reason than frustration and shock value. Glad you "freaking loved it". I freaking hated it, especially since you had no option than replaying 5 hours of utterly boring, repetitive battles to change the "gotcha" end game. It was pathetic.

I'm done.

Might want to clarify who you're talking to, hun. Kinda confusing.

 Yes, I know.  I should never post when I'm tired and it's past midnight.  I'm too grumpy and illogical, and tend to respond to a post in the same tone as it responded to me, which in that case was sarcastic, mocking and accusatory.  Unfortunately, I didn't bother to identify said post.  My bad.

Anyway, since when is having sex with Morrigan one time turning your character into a pimp? Morrigan never slept with Alistair, so I don't know where you're going with that. How is saving the life of a hero and preventing the continuation of the Blight an "obvious evil act"? I'm sorry, are you mad because the writer's managed to actually create an ending that wasn't predictable? You're mad that you're hand wasn't held all the way to the fairy tale ending of Anora and Alistair eventually falling in love while you and your love cuddle together in a bed n' breakfast? Since when, in real life, has there been a perfect way out of any massive conflict like the Blight? Take WWII, for example. What was the major reason for the ending of the war? Nuclear bombs. Do you believe the Axis (that includes everyone, not just the ****s) would stop with their face-stomping rampage because a general or two was killed by some noble soldier? Even if Hitler was killed it wouldn't have mattered. They had plans in place to continue with the war.

 
Don't get me wrong.  I appreciated the difficult choices made.  There are many endings, and I've only seen two of them.  There were some design choices that bothered me, and the Dark Ritual was one of them.  My first character went along with it, and coerced Alistair into having sex when he did not want to.  Literally, I pimped him out and felt dirty.  My second character refused, planning to sacrifice herself and have Alistair rule alone.  Unfortunately she didn't realize that if she took Alistair to the archdemon, she wouldn't be able to stop him from committing suicide.  A real shock to me that all my grand plans blew up in my face.  However, it made total sense from a character perspective that Alistair would do the honorable thing whether I liked it or not.  So not having a happy ending wasn't my problem; I knew one of us would die.  I just expected it to be me.

My problem was the decision to force an unwanted sexual encounter as the only possible option that left both grey wardens alive.  Coerced sex for personal gain, otherwise known as prostitution or rape, is evil to me.  Vulgar and evil.  Toss in the potential of putting some kind of half-royal half-archedemon into the world (Morrigan and Flemeth weren't exactly pillars of truth, you know) then we're talking evil to the core.  That's the way I feel, and  I'm kinda entitled to feel that way just as you're entitled to feel differently.

You said, "that the player couldn't possibly predict because the player was deliberately misled for no other reason than frustration and shock value". As opposed to what? Being accidentally misled because you missed some hints earlier, only to hit a wall of predictability and happiness? Hahahahahaha. I was going to add a few more comments but I see no need.

I'll ignore your rude tone since I was just as rude in my own post, although I doubt it was directed at you.  I'll try to get us back on track. 

As voiced by the opening OP, players were deliberately misled because the writers did not allow us to know that a Gray Warden must die to end the blight until we were blindsided with it after Landsmeet.  Why was that done?  I'm a writer myself.  I know why.  It's to shock the player and up the emotional ante.  I get that.  Anyone with half a brain knew at that moment Riordan wouldn't be killing that archdemon, that the PC or Alistair would have to do it.  That wasn't my problem. 

Specifically my problem were plot choices that suspended belief by going against all that the player had learned about Fereldan, Gray Wardens and companions.  The dark ritual is one example. Another is that if one allowed Logain to live, Alistair went completely bi-polar going against everything he believed in to walk away from the blight that was his duty to see through... his duty to Duncan, as he'd said many times before.  Totally unbelievable action by the character that had been displayed throughout the game.  I also had a problem with the sudden offer to make Logain a Gray Warden dispite the fact that Riordan had already said he didn't know the ritual and the archdemon blood had been destroyed at Ostagar.  So suddenly the rare blood reappears and Riordan regains his memory?  Again, a design decision that jolted me out of my immersion.

I've already said I love the game itself.  That doesn't mean that there weren't moments of the game that I took exception to.  I also dispised the end-game battles, which were nothing more than hours of grueling drudgery that added nothing to the game except a desperate desire for it to finally end.  I think it's okay for players to talk about what did and did not work for them in any game, even one as over-all exceptional as Dragon Age.


 

[robertthebard]

kenelis wrote...

Well I can't reply to everyone, since there's people on both sides the of the fence regarding each point. I'll reply to the most commented ones though:

-- Landsmeet: Fereldans opposed the Orlesian rule quite strongly, correct? Orlesians were an undesired entity that took the land by force. Well if Loghain actually won the duel, he'd be the same thing. But Landsmeet was OK with that. Take away the accent and birthplace and what's the difference? The guy with the bigger sword wins. Yeah, that's an oversimplification, but my point is I expected democracy from a country that's been holding Landsmeets for centuries, and found out it doesn't exist the hard way.

How old do you think Loghain is?  They have been free of Orlais for decades at the most, not centuries, and you can be sure they weren't having Landsmeets during the occupation.

-- Morrigan's offer: Clearly Morrigan is hiding something. Remember I chose *not* to do the ritual because I thought it was the *safe* choice for her (see first post). Some assumptions have been made that the ritual is needed to save her against Flemeth somehow... if she *told me* that I'd help her. If I can save her by sleeping with her, of course I wouldn't object. Last time I helped her, she made me fight a dragon! Why would a woman my PC loves withhold information from me? If that doesn't raise alarms, what does?

-- Riordan: Nobody clipped Flemeth or the High Dragon's wings. I still beat them. Not to mention that the Archdemon was flying around the tower just fine afterwards. Nothing in the game suggests that what Riordan did was *necessary* for us to win. Hence, the whole bit seemed like a pointless sacrifice to steer me towards a difficult ending.

Yeah, because Leeerooooy Jenkins is a myth.  Except, as somebody that has played MMO's, I can tell you, that guy is real, even if his name isn't always Leroy.  However, when he jumped off that tower onto the Archdemon, I'd swear I heard "Leeerrrrrooooyyyyyy Jennnnkiinnnnnsssss".

-- Leliana/Wynne endings: I got the compose ballad/last adventure bits, then the epilogue says they travel somewhere and are never seen again. IMO, there's no closure there. I'm not terribly disappointed with these epilogues, but they feel like empty calories.

How much do you suppose you would really know, being dead and all?

Anyways, I understand that not all choices work out (e.g. siding with Harrowmont didn't work out for the dwarves), but from Landsmeet to the end, it felt like *every* choice I made was the wrong one. It's not just the ending per se that bugs me, it's the way I felt *steered* towards it. I enjoyed the first 95% of DAO, but this post would be no fun if I just sing praises, right?

So you felt like every choice was a shade of grey?  That's what they were supposed to be?  You condemn the ending for being tragic, and yet chose the most tragic ending.  I'm frankly surprised you were surprised.  However, I tend to question how tragic that ending really is, since the Blight is over, almost before it began.  Doesn't it get remarked somewhere that it was the shortest Blight in history?  Lots of lives lost, but no where near as bad as it could have been.

[robertthebard]

tomas819 wrote...

 Kenelis, while I disagree with you in some particulars, I absolutely agree with you about the ending(s) overall.

If you want to play this game as someone with honor and decency, you have no choice but to "fall on your sword and die" at the end. I think that's pretty lame.

Your other options (1) the Morrigan option, (2) the Alistair option, and (3) the Loghain option are all repugnant to me for the following reasons. Option 1 is cowardly ("Yes, I'll just sacrifice my progeny to some sneaky, slimy power-grab tactic of Morrigan's to save my own skin"). Option 2 is weak ("I am a noble honorable person, but I want my good friend Alistair here to die to I can ... save my skin"). Option 3, in my opinion, is the worst of the three ("I am going to enlist a "dead meat" warden so he can die and I can ... save my skin"). From a logic standpoint, this is ridiculous. Why enlist Loghain when you could just as easily enlist dozens of other more decent and honorable candidate NPCs who were all standing about? Ser Perth? Osywn and the bazillion other nobles and good guys in Denerim and Redcliffe, etc.? Why not Murdock? Heck, even Lloyd the oily tavernkeeper. I mean, come on! Riordan could have created a veritable army of Grey Wardens right then and there. Why Loghain and him alone?

Yeccch.

I was deeply disappointed by these "options". Creative writers could have offered an "honorable option" that didn't involve suicide. I have suggested one in another thread here. But really, any would have sufficed. My suggestion would have been, basically, for some unknown new and mysterious NPC (in my scenario, a mysterious Tevinter mage who had been keeping nervous tabs on Morrigan/Flemeth) to offer a PC who had refused Morrigan's deal another option -- a way of surviving the "archdemon's death blow" fire blast -- in exchange for a promise to collaborate in tracking down (and presumably destroying) Morrigan, thus setting up a dynamic wherein Morrigan is the archvillain (or not!) in the next campaign.

Anyway, while I enjoyed the game immensely, I agree with the OP that the ending options were lame.

What is more honorable than giving your life to save your country?  Are you perhaps going to just strut up to the Archdemon and ask him to leave so you can stop the Blight?  You think you have a high enough Coercion skill for that?  You state that the ritual with Morrigan was cowardly, but it would be different doing a different ritual with a mage you never met?  This would be honorable as well?

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

Just to clarify something Robert mentioned. They stopped fighting orlais 10 years ago. For the previous 20 years Loghain spent all of that time fighting the Orlesians kicking them out of Ferelden and ensuring they stayed out. He saw his mother raped and murdered by an Orlesian General, he heard his dad scream out his last battlecry as he fought Orlesian supporters to give Loghain and Maric time to escape a camp they were at. So Kenelis before you start trying to spout lore, it might help if you learned some of it first as Robert said there was definitly no landsmeets during that occupation, well definitly not that true Ferelden people would be attending ie. no one that wasn't a scummy orlais-licking supporter.

Also yes, the 5th blight will no doubt go on record as being the shortest ever blight. All of the others so far have generally taken 25-200 years. This one was less than 1 considering the Archdemon really only showed face topside right at the end.

Modifié par Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien, 02 janvier 2010 - 04:02 .

[lilmissmissi]

Thank you for being intelligent and mature in pointing out what a lot of us feel. I loved the game up until Landsmeet. I feel jipped out after having spent so much time with these characters that I either have to kill someone or be killed and can't enjoy the fruits of my labor. I think BW could have at least had that an option, as well as all the other finale options they already have. That way everyone could get the ending the wished for, and ultimately, go back and play through a whole different way.



Perhaps in the next one?

[Realmzmaster]

A lot of people appear to be unhappy because there is not a "and they lived happily ever after" ending. No the endings are a lot like the choices thoughout the game. Neither totally good nor totally bad. Rather the endings are grey much like the wardens.

I am not surprised by the endings. If you have ever played an old school CRPG called Darklands. One of the characters had to scarfice themeselves for the greater good. The scarfice involved either death or permanent crippling.