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[Inhuman one]

We all know that Bioware is pretty much unchallenged when it comes to writing a story for a game, but there is always room for improvement.

This thread is to discuss the things in Bioware's stories so far that you consider to be flaws, weaknesses or things that could need improvement. By doing this we could help the Bioware writers make the future stories even better since together we might be able to give some good advice here.

Please remember to  give constructive critique and keep it polite.


I have quite a few things to say about it myself as well, otherwise I wouldnt have made the thread.

For starters, I think that characters besides the player character need to be fleshed out a bit more and have a story of their own. It often feels like everyone you encounter is either there for comic relief, for you to kill or to make you appear more awesome. Usually this is less with companions but not always.

The story is of course revolving around the player character, but it would be nice if there would be more references to characters own story and background, to make the player curious of that, to make it seem as if such characters are developed enough to carry a story on their own.

reasons to back up their choices often seem to be missing, which makes many characters a bit shallow.  As if they are just there to contribute to the player's story and nothing more. Gameplay wise thats their purpose of course, but it could be a bit better concealed.

Take arl howe for example. Its mentioned he does have a family in the beginning, seeing them at his funeral in the city, or rushing to his dead corpse after you killed him could give his character a lot more depth. It would show he was more than just an opportunistic villain. He may have done all of it to ensure the wellbeing of his family.

Modifié par Inhuman one, 02 janvier 2010 - 10:15 .

[Amberyl Ravenclaw]

Yaaaaaaaah! Spoiler tags if you please. I haven't finished DA:O yet and to run smack into one without prior warning is a sad sad thing. *hangs head*

Modifié par Amberyl Ravenclaw, 31 décembre 2009 - 09:51 .

[Ponce de Leon]

Oh no, this is the point where Amberyl becomes insane and goes out in a killing rampage?

Spoilers ahead... I warned you!





As for Howe. Well, all I can say is that the character is not developed as I wanted. I knew who the voice actor was and all, was happy about it, but was hoping for more. Too bad I finished 1 game before starting the human noble origin, where I had the suspect something would have gone bad... very bad... As for what he cared for his family, I don't know. He was lying dead already and all he said was "I deserved... more..."

A second point I was very disappointed at was Uldred. I mean, you never get the chance to talk to not possessed Uldred. You hear him saying 3 words in Ostagar and then all you see is a possessed Uldred ready to kill the entire world....



Spoilers end here...

[GoldenusG]

On reflection, whilst Bioware games have some of the best dialogue I've seen in games, along with fleshed out, interesting worlds/universes, the storyline is almost always lacking in some way.

[Fleapants]

No spoilers in this reply ^^

My biggest dissappointment with DA is that the different countries are so inspired by real world countries, instead of being somewhat more original.

Imagine for a moment that Leliana came from the Quebekistan capital of Mont Royal, that Zevran came from Las Angelus (and said "whoa duuude" a lot while hitting the waves) or that Morrigan came from that annoying city of Nova Yorke.

All that wouldn't be immersive or cool. That would be silly, but I guess that being european colors my opinion of this.

Contrary to what the Inhuman one wrote, I find the companions to be very well fleshed out; they have their own reasons and motivations for following you, and they all have a depth that makes them believable.
My -only- gripe is that most of them are too humorous - I don't want to laugh every other minute while playing something called a dark fantasy game, but, minor issue.

[Inhuman one]

I am terribly sorry about the spoiler, I really didnt think about it. This post will probably cointain SPOILERS as well.



The companions do have quite some background and are some of the most fleshed out characters, but they might indeed be a bit too much about comic relief.



There are few companions in Dragon Age that I really liked, of course everyone has different preferences but sometimes they seemed to contradict themselves which undermines the believability of the characters.



Leliana for example acts very naive despite her colored past. Seeing how she is supposed to be rather well traveled and has seen quite some things she should be far less naive. The good writers of Bioware might have tried too hard to make her a sweet and cute girl to be very different from Morigan even while this contradicts her past.



As a Bard she could play naive when required, but she shouldnt be so naive all the time when traveling in your party.



Alistar is an interesting character, but I just cant imagine him even being considered for templar training. The templar part of his story just doesnt fit in.

[Inhuman one]

The origin stories where also a bit weak, it seems to have little effect outside of the beginning. I expected a lot more from this.



Dwarf commoners should hardly know anything about the surface since they wouldnt have acces to a library. And shouldnt there at least be a short cutscene when he/she sees the surface for the first time since this would be quite an emotional moment?



And nobles should have some suitable responses according to their station, they might look down on the common folk and could have some arrogant responses.

[Ponce de Leon]

Sort of SPOILERS :

From what I understand, you pass some weeks with Duncan traveling from the Origin city to Ostagar. After all, if a week is needed to come from Orzammar to the Circle tower, then you were traveling some 1 month with Duncan. It is possible to suppose you learn about the surface in that journey, though I may be wrong.

I have to tell that after playing and replaying the Origins, they are a bit dull. I mean, they should have included the part needed to reach Ostagar. From what I understand, Duncan even made a stop in Redcliff, talking to Arl Eamon. Perhaps this was before the given Origin, but perhaps even after, so why not include this in-game? Perhaps a mod one day, or an official DLC.



Origin related late in game SPOILERS :

From what I understand, the Origins won't change how the world works, but rather, give you a different role playing aspect.

For example, the Human Noble will have a strong reason to why kill Howe.

This is also related to the Commoner and Noble dwarf, which will choose different sides according to their Origins.

The circle mage will always attempt to rescue the circle and not nullify it. At least from a role playing purpose.

The Dalish elf will probably help the other Dalish clan in their quest, without hesitation and kill all the werewolves (of course, this is not always true).

The city elf I haven't really placed it well yet because I haven't played to the end with one. My guess would be that a city elf will rescue the elves of the Alienage when it comes to the slavery problem, while other origins might still make a deal with the slavers.

[Inhuman one]

the city elf can also make a deal with the slavers, I finished the game with a city elf alone and played quite bit with some other origins.



My city elf was quite attached to his friends and family however, so I didnt go with such options but the dialogue choices where there. There is hardly any emotion however when you are reunited with your father, which is one of the captured elves.



A simple hug at times would have made the game a lot more emotional. Only with the appropriate dialogue options of course, like if you would tell a family member that you will miss him/her when you leave with duncan.



I am not sure if its supposed to be implied that you traveled a while with Duncan, I personly figured that after the origin you go straight to Ostagar with nothing important happening on the road.



And it took a long time before I found out there where supposed to be more Warden's at Ostagar, I first thought that Duncan and Alistar where all the grey wardens of Ferelden.



Those other wardens should have made an appearance at least, some could have stood next to Duncan and offer a bit of dialogue.



Which brings me to another point: the grey wardens.



Some origins and some other recruits prove that their recruitment standards arent that high, and it appears to be pretty much the same as being a Spectre or a Jedi. Why must the player character always be part of an exclusive group of skilled individuals that fight evil?



I personly find that Duncan is looking at some odd places for recruits. War veterans, Barbarians, Ash warriors and wild mages would make more sense then spoiled young nobles, apprentice mages that never saw much more than a tower or a poor elf/dwarf peasant that never saw much else than the back alley they live in.



Recruits like that would be found by chance, they would cross Duncan's path by coincidence.



I must say I did believe in the dwarf commoner origin recruitment, Duncan didnt look in the slums here but at the arena where it made sense to look for recruits.



But especially the human noble origin doesnt make sense.. its a rather awfull origin to begin with however, with parents that constantly insult you by calling you pup, shabby looking armor for you and your mother despite the status of noble, you yourself not wearing clothes but armor when at home and its a very cliche beginning as well with a so called surprise attack in which most people you know are killed.



Pretty much all bioware games and expansions seem to begin with a so called surprise attack. Neverwinter Nights, Shadows of Undrentide, Hordes of the Underdark, Jade Empire, Mass Effect and Knights of the Old Republic all seem to begin with it.



This makes the starting point of a Bioware game very predictable, whenever I play a Bioware game I kind of expect the surprise attack at the start. Its good that this doesnt happen in the other origins that I played so far, but the main point of a surprise attack is that it should come as a surprise.

[A Platypus123]

Even though this has nothing to do with their writing, I think the game could have had much better voice acting.

[Inhuman one]

could you give a few examples? Having heard some terrible voice acting in other games might have caused me to miss it.

[AntiChri5]

If you read up on Ferelden culture a bit more you will see that being called Pup is not an insult. Fereldenians revere dogs, one codex entry even says (half jokingly) that if you insult their dogs prepare for a declaration of war.



Also i thought Duncan was there to have a look at the best of your fathers army, notices you but decides against because you are so high born (which of course changes later.)

[Inhuman one]

In egyptian culture people werent called kittens either even while cats where holy.



And I doubt that in India people are called calves as a term of endearment despite cows being holy.



It might work if you call a 5 year old pup, but not an adult man or woman who could be in their thirties already.



I know that Duncan didnt initially planned on recruiting the human noble, but he/she doesnt really do anything to justify it. Killing a few soldiers with the help of your mother and many other soldiers wouldnt really make someone recruiting material. He might as well have recruited your mother.



And where was Duncan during the attack? Being a veteran grey warden he could repell the intruders on his own.



And it just does not make sense for the human noble to want to join Duncan. His/her place would be in the lands of Cousland, trying to save as many people as possible through that escape route.

[Medhia Nox]

- I actually prefer environments based off of real cultures. It says a lot about a fantasy culture without having to waste precious space detailing it. It leaves room for the fantastic elements of that culture plus it provides the audience with a very important connection to the real world.



- I've read plenty of fantasy that goes with "Stock Mystical Kingdom #1". I've found literally nothing "fresh and new" out there and I would love for somebody to point me to an example of fantasy environments that 1) Have the feel of being largely original. 2) In no way mirror real life cultures.



- It's impossible. Our entire understanding of literature is based off our concepts formed in reality. The notion of "new and original" seems unreasonable to me. A world with forks as the people, houses made of cheese that teleport you where you want to go, and a balloon for a deity is "unique and original".. but it's also silly and trite.



- To this end, I prefer Bioware's choice in Dragon Age. Don't waste my time giving me "unique snowflake fantasy kingdoms". Let me cut through all that and get to the story. Give me background certainly, but tell me what is different about Ferelden or Orlais. Largely, they did this. ((Example: The Chant is notable to me. The fact that it is sung in its entirety at Val Royeaux (the Vatican?) was an interesting bit of lore.))



- Other notable examples. 1) Elves as servants/second class citizens/freedom fighters. 2) Dwarven kingdom were beautifully designed. Instead of "Fantasy Dwarf!" I felt like they were real people who just happen to be dwarves. 3) Mages being under the heel of the church. I really enjoyed that. Mages as all powerful and dangerous people (still a part of Dragon Age) is boring and done in nearly all literature where they appear. I appreciated the fresh look.



----



Anyway, I have a million more thoughts, but this post is already too long.

[Inhuman one]

I personly dont mind it at all that they base countries on existing countries in their medieval period, But its more of a start from which they can work further.



And what exactly do we learn of Ferelden through the game? very little aside from millitairy matters.



Through the game the focus is completely on the war, but we never get to grow attached to ferelden, to grow to love it, to really want to defend it, moving away from the typical ego trip and really feel like you do it to save others.



Ferelden could be known for its wine, cheese, some local dish, etc instead of just war hounds. There could at least be a flag to represent ferelden. we just know so little of the population. It might be in books or such, but I dont care about that, it should be noticable through the game.

[Thibbledorf26]

No spoilers here.



The game was sometimes too verbose. I like having plenty of dialogue, but information should be distributed to pc's slowly throughout the course of an rpg, to avoid information dump. In DA there were parts where you receive walls and walls of text in one go, and it can be unrealistic that NPC's would talk in that mechanical way. For example when talking to certain npcs like alistair, there would be some dialgue trees where he gave you a huge amount of information about his life, and he spoke in a mechanical way like the devs looked at his character bio and went from there. NPCs should have their own personalities which filters how they give the pcs the information. While Alistair's personality was good most of the time, sometimes it wasn't there.



Also merchants would often speak two or three of the same lines of dialogue WHENEVER you wanted to trade with them. For example 'My stuff is the best stuff, from Orzammar, the finest dwarven craft. Why dont you take a look and see if you like anything? You won't be disappointed!'. Obviously the Bioware dialogue would be more polished, but there are merchants who would respond like that when you ask to see their wares. It might not seem to be a big deal, but after hearing the same long sales pitch every time you sell to a merchant, it gets annoying and I reach for the escape button to skip it. The second time you buy from a merchant, greetings should be short, or make them say different things.

[Inhuman one]

I agree with that, salesmen should have some more variety. Wouldnt hurt either if companions could also have several lines to say when you start talking to them or end the conversation.



And Alistar is indeed a bit odd at times, but I already mentioned earlier that I dont find the templar background matching him at all.

[Inhuman one]

I wouldnt mind seeing those extra parts show up in a patch if possible.

[Inhuman one]

Its a shame that Bioware seems to listen more to EA than to their writing team.