574 réponses à ce sujet

[EpicBoot2daFace]

Plaintiff wrote...

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...
Within reason, of course. But forcing the player to adopt a role that removes race selection due to established lore? Not the best idea for player agency.

What's "within reason", then?

Something like what you said.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

jackofalltrades456 wrote...

And you believed it?

Because the explanations are logical and the ones that claim otherwise aren't?  Yes.

That's sufficient grounds not to believe the naysayers.  That is not sufficient grounds to believe BioWare.

You need not beleive the best story told to you.  You could instead wait for a genuinely compelling one.

Now, in DA3's case, I can see a strong argument for limiting the PC to human that has nothing at all to do with cost.  But that doesn't prevent cost from being a barrier; that just prevents that barrier from being relevant.

[Uzzy]

Vandicus wrote...

Uzzy wrote...

If the Bioware writers were actually concerned about plot reasons why your PC couldn't be X or Y, then our experiences as a mage running around in Kirkwall would have been very different.

(Though, to be fair, spending the game locked up would have been a considerable improvement on what we actually got)

So what you're saying is, you'd be ok with the races being a simple reskin and never being addressed by NPCs or the plot.

That would be preferable to not having the other races in at all, yes (as long as patently absurd situations are avoided, like the whole waving your magic staff infront of the mage hunting templars thing)

A return to the way DA:O did it would be fine. I enjoyed the fact that your race was addressed by some NPCs, and would like to see more, but it's not too important. I don't need the plot to revolve around ones choice of race.

[FINE HERE]

xsdob wrote...

So the chantry stopped being racist against elves and dwarfs? Why wasn't I informed?

Maybe after the whole 'elves are willing to become slaves to the Qun just to escape the racism of humans' openned their eyes a little. If there's something the chantry hates more than elves and dwarves, it's apparently the Qunari.

[Monica21]

Caiden012 wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

Caiden012 wrote...
So it is wrong of me to assume that I should get an experience that is as good or better than the previous game. They are taking away our choices as players and more than just that have been taken from us. Are characters personality was very limited in DA 2 compared to DA:O and that probably wont change.

I think it's wrong of you to assume that the reason you had a good experience with DA:O is the same reason everyone had a good experience. Playing as a dwarf or elf was largely cosmetic. It affected nothing. DA2 was the second game in a series, but no game in a sequel is going to be a copy of the game before, so no, they are not taking away choices. The only way that would be true is if they patched DA:O to only let you play as human.

What do you mean it affected nothing? It decided how you started the game, how some npcs reacted to you, gave you different speech options during the game, gave different endings. It gave us as players to create the character we wanted to make. Dragon Age is a series and it is not wrong of me to expect a similar experience from sequals. 

I've responded to this before. It didn't change that you get recruited into the Wardens, survive Ostagar, get the treaties, go the the Landsmeet, and kill the Archdemon. The story remains the same. And I said that you can have whatever expectations you want, but Oblivion was not Morrowind and Skyrim was not Oblivion. Fallout 2 was not Fallout 1. Sequels are not copies.

[Sylvius the Mad]

EntropicAngel wrote...

I would disagree on it being destroyed--though I may be wrong. I don't recall the game's exact definition for what Bastila does to "you,"--does it destroy your personality, or simply cause you to forget it.

I would count those two things as equivalent.  Either way, the prior personality is not relevant to the personality or even memories of the PC as played.

[force192]

It really doesn't bother me that I can only play as Human in DA3. Would I have liked to play as an Elf or Dwarf? Sure. But as long as DA3 is a fun game then I'll be happy.

[Plaintiff]

Faerunner wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

I do understand your point, but what I'm trying to say is that your choice of race in DAO has little to no impact on the story. The story remains the same. You survive Ostagar, get the treaties, go to the Landsmeet, defeat the Archdemon. The changes are mostly in how people address you. Kester treats you like a piece of dirt if you're a city elf but couldn't be more pleased that "someone like you" deigns to talk to someone like him if you're a human noble.

It affects your character's individual story. You don't just swoop in to watch from a bird's eye view at the Battle of Ostagar the way you do for Hawke at the destruction of Lothering in DA2, you follow your character through their homelife, their tragedy, their rescue at the hands of Duncan and see how their experiences drive their decisions and actions through the rest of the adventure. Most of Dragon Age: Origins involves the character making executive decisions, and why your character might decide to do something can be strongly affected by their experiences and backgrounds. 

I'm not trying to be argumentative and I understand that you enjoy seeing Thedas through someone else's eyes, but seeing the Blight as a dwarven or elven Warden didn't change the story.

Apparently you don't, because you still presume to know more about my individual experience throughout the game more than I do.

Indiviudal experience isn't really relevent. What happens inside your head doesn't change the fact that objectively, the game changes very little.

[Darth Krytie]

Caiden012 wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

Caiden012 wrote...
So it is wrong of me to assume that I should get an experience that is as good or better than the previous game. They are taking away our choices as players and more than just that have been taken from us. Are characters personality was very limited in DA 2 compared to DA:O and that probably wont change.

I think it's wrong of you to assume that the reason you had a good experience with DA:O is the same reason everyone had a good experience. Playing as a dwarf or elf was largely cosmetic. It affected nothing. DA2 was the second game in a series, but no game in a sequel is going to be a copy of the game before, so no, they are not taking away choices. The only way that would be true is if they patched DA:O to only let you play as human.

What do you mean it affected nothing? It decided how you started the game, how some npcs reacted to you, gave you different speech options during the game, gave different endings. It gave us as players to create the character we wanted to make. Dragon Age is a series and it is not wrong of me to expect a similar experience from sequals. 

It may have affected some dialogue, but it rarely removed options. The only place where player race mattered (aside from the origins themselves) was at the landsmeet, and whether you could become king/queen, remain dating Alistair. Other than that, being an elf or a dwarf or a human didn't change whether you could shop places or get other races to deal with you. They may have been snide, but they still dealt with you in the end.

[TsaiMeLemoni]

FINE HERE wrote...

xsdob wrote...

So the chantry stopped being racist against elves and dwarfs? Why wasn't I informed?

Maybe after the whole 'elves are willing to become slaves to the Qun just to escape the racism of humans' openned their eyes a little. If there's something the chantry hates more than elves and dwarves, it's apparently the Qunari.

Maybe, but probably not. I can see them viewing defection to the Qun as a sign of weakness, and having that reinforce their view of the elves as being lesser creatures.

[EpicBoot2daFace]

TsaiMeLemoni wrote...

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...


Within reason, of course. But forcing the player to adopt a role that removes race selection due to established lore? Not the best idea for player agency.

I don't see how race selection affects player agency more than the actual story. As evidenced in DAO, race essentially means nothing, especially in regards to player agency. The things that did affect it are the blight, the rounding up of allies, and putting an end to the Arch Demon. Unless you're trying to say that the race of the PC should be the instigation of the narrative, and if that's the case, that's a game I don't want to play.

It usually doesn't, but in this case, one directly affects the other.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Terrorize69 wrote...

Now the next thing we will be waiting to hear is if our PC will have and be restricted to just a Orlesain accent.

I'd be totally okay with that.

If our character is Orlesian, I'll be really annoyed if he doesn't have an Orlesian accent.

Unless they just decide that Orlesians don't have that accent in DA3, but that would be a really strange thing for BioWare to do given their apparent interest in inter-game continuity.

[TsaiMeLemoni]

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

TsaiMeLemoni wrote...

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...


Within reason, of course. But forcing the player to adopt a role that removes race selection due to established lore? Not the best idea for player agency.

I don't see how race selection affects player agency more than the actual story. As evidenced in DAO, race essentially means nothing, especially in regards to player agency. The things that did affect it are the blight, the rounding up of allies, and putting an end to the Arch Demon. Unless you're trying to say that the race of the PC should be the instigation of the narrative, and if that's the case, that's a game I don't want to play.

It usually doesn't, but in this case, one directly affects the other.

Can you elaborate on that? In my playthroughs, my city elf didn't face a different blight, or have to pursue different allies than my human or dwarf. They all had the same basic options of defeating the Arch Demon. The story itself plays out the same no matter what you choose. The race doesn't affect the challenges the characters' face, which is what creates the player agency.

If there's something I am missing, please elucidate.

Modifié par TsaiMeLemoni, 21 octobre 2012 - 04:26 .

[Shadow Fox]

Monica21 wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...
What would be so bad about being a Grey Warden again...?

There isn't a Blight.

In fact, I'm going to guess the civil war is exactly the sort of thing the (smart) Gray Wardens try their best not to get involved in.

Except Sophia Dryden got herself and the Ferelden Wardens involved in a civil war, and actually for excellent reasons.

And just look how that turned out.

[LPPrince]

Non-playable backstory?

Hope its more "significant" than the Mass Effect equivalents, which amounted to hardly anything in the end of the day.

[xsdob]

FINE HERE wrote...

xsdob wrote...

So the chantry stopped being racist against elves and dwarfs? Why wasn't I informed?

Maybe after the whole 'elves are willing to become slaves to the Qun just to escape the racism of humans' openned their eyes a little. If there's something the chantry hates more than elves and dwarves, it's apparently the Qunari.

And according to the chanty, all three are pagans and heretics.

I think they'd bust out the seekers and templars and issue an exterminatus order against the elves before letting them join the higher ranks of the chantry and corrupt andrastes and the makers divine will.

[Caiden012]

Monica21 wrote...

Caiden012 wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

Caiden012 wrote...
So it is wrong of me to assume that I should get an experience that is as good or better than the previous game. They are taking away our choices as players and more than just that have been taken from us. Are characters personality was very limited in DA 2 compared to DA:O and that probably wont change.

I think it's wrong of you to assume that the reason you had a good experience with DA:O is the same reason everyone had a good experience. Playing as a dwarf or elf was largely cosmetic. It affected nothing. DA2 was the second game in a series, but no game in a sequel is going to be a copy of the game before, so no, they are not taking away choices. The only way that would be true is if they patched DA:O to only let you play as human.

What do you mean it affected nothing? It decided how you started the game, how some npcs reacted to you, gave you different speech options during the game, gave different endings. It gave us as players to create the character we wanted to make. Dragon Age is a series and it is not wrong of me to expect a similar experience from sequals. 

I've responded to this before. It didn't change that you get recruited into the Wardens, survive Ostagar, get the treaties, go the the Landsmeet, and kill the Archdemon. The story remains the same. And I said that you can have whatever expectations you want, but Oblivion was not Morrowind and Skyrim was not Oblivion. Fallout 2 was not Fallout 1. Sequels are not copies.

I never said a sequal is a copy but it should have mechanics that carry over and anything that changes our abillity as players to make choices is not good. I expect the story to be the same everytime regardless of my choices of race. You can say the same for EVERYTHING in the game. Players want to make choices the affect the world around them. At the end of the day you will go through all those events you listed.

But every choice from race to romance to morality shaped the characters and world around you and THAT is what made origins so amazing. To take that away from us is a kick in the balls and it makes me wonder in Bioware is really listening to their fans.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Obviously the only conclusion to draw from this is that Star Trek Online is the greatest RPG of all time. 

Why?

You can invent your own custom race/species!  UNLIMITED RACIAL OPTIONS

I understand you're being facetious, but your conclusion isn't supported by this guy's assertion.

That he has established some minimum threshold does not require that he believes in some infinite continuum,

[Vandicus]

Uzzy wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Uzzy wrote...

If the Bioware writers were actually concerned about plot reasons why your PC couldn't be X or Y, then our experiences as a mage running around in Kirkwall would have been very different.

(Though, to be fair, spending the game locked up would have been a considerable improvement on what we actually got)

So what you're saying is, you'd be ok with the races being a simple reskin and never being addressed by NPCs or the plot.

That would be preferable to not having the other races in at all, yes (as long as patently absurd situations are avoided, like the whole waving your magic staff infront of the mage hunting templars thing)

A return to the way DA:O did it would be fine. I enjoyed the fact that your race was addressed by some NPCs, and would like to see more, but it's not too important. I don't need the plot to revolve around ones choice of race.

It would be patently absurd for an Orlesian noble to treat an elf with any respect. The game has portions in Orlais, and we know that PC is supposed to be a person of political influence. In order to address interactions(and the extreme disdain the murder-happy Orlesians would logically have for an elf), a huge amount of content would most likely have to be devoted to it. This is only one example in which race would require extensive content to avoid absurdity. Moreover, this may shift the narrative in a way which makes it difficult to keep with the main plot, causing narrative breakdowns.

Fereldan on the whole was very racially tolerant, and a wide variety of circumstances contributed to limiting how freely anti-race X people would act. In Orlais, the response would be a war of assassins.

Completely avoiding addressing race(in other words treating the PC as human regardless of race chosen) can be done, but it breaks immersion in a way that it appears Bioware does not like. Actually including appropriate reactions is either plot breaking, or far beyond their available resources.

[JWvonGoethe]

Having read through every post in this topic, I've seen more than a few people bring up the "85% of Origins playthroughs were as human Wardens" statistic. Just a thought: if we only got two playable races in DA3 - human or kossith - what percentage of people then would play as human? I'm guessing 1%. (OK, a slight exaggeration.)

Anyway, on a serious note, I'm not too disappointed by the lack of playable races in DA3. I loved having them in Origins, but I trust that the background stories will more than make up for it.

Modifié par JWvonGoethe, 21 octobre 2012 - 05:22 .

[Sabariel]

Boo, I say! BOO!

[Plaintiff]

Caiden012 wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

Caiden012 wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

Caiden012 wrote...
So it is wrong of me to assume that I should get an experience that is as good or better than the previous game. They are taking away our choices as players and more than just that have been taken from us. Are characters personality was very limited in DA 2 compared to DA:O and that probably wont change.

I think it's wrong of you to assume that the reason you had a good experience with DA:O is the same reason everyone had a good experience. Playing as a dwarf or elf was largely cosmetic. It affected nothing. DA2 was the second game in a series, but no game in a sequel is going to be a copy of the game before, so no, they are not taking away choices. The only way that would be true is if they patched DA:O to only let you play as human.

What do you mean it affected nothing? It decided how you started the game, how some npcs reacted to you, gave you different speech options during the game, gave different endings. It gave us as players to create the character we wanted to make. Dragon Age is a series and it is not wrong of me to expect a similar experience from sequals. 

I've responded to this before. It didn't change that you get recruited into the Wardens, survive Ostagar, get the treaties, go the the Landsmeet, and kill the Archdemon. The story remains the same. And I said that you can have whatever expectations you want, but Oblivion was not Morrowind and Skyrim was not Oblivion. Fallout 2 was not Fallout 1. Sequels are not copies.

I never said a sequal is a copy but it should have mechanics that carry over and anything that changes our abillity as players to make choices is not good. I expect the story to be the same everytime regardless of my choices of race. You can say the same for EVERYTHING in the game. Players want to make choices the affect the world around them. At the end of the day you will go through all those events you listed.

But every choice from race to romance to morality shaped the characters and world around you and THAT is what made origins so amazing. To take that away from us is a kick in the balls and it makes me wonder in Bioware is really listening to their fans.

"Fans" meaning only the people that agree with you, yes?

[FINE HERE]

xsdob wrote...

FINE HERE wrote...

xsdob wrote...

So the chantry stopped being racist against elves and dwarfs? Why wasn't I informed?

Maybe after the whole 'elves are willing to become slaves to the Qun just to escape the racism of humans' openned their eyes a little. If there's something the chantry hates more than elves and dwarves, it's apparently the Qunari.

And according to the chanty, all three are pagans and heretics.

I think they'd bust out the seekers and templars and issue an exterminatus order against the elves before letting them join the higher ranks of the chantry and corrupt andrastes and the makers divine will.

I doubt that. They welcome them into the religon as long as they'll believe in the maker. I'm pretty sure Sebastian said something like that when talking to Fenris...

[Sylvius the Mad]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Yeah, I don't think we've seen anything designed specifically for people who liked DA:O but hated DA II.

Equipping companions.

The proposal for companion customisation we saw earlier is a slight refinement of the DAO system, and a complete rejection of the DA2 system.

That's certainly something we've seen that caters directly to DAO fans who didn't like some aspect of DA2.