574 réponses à ce sujet

[Caiden012]

Plaintiff wrote...

Caiden012 wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

Caiden012 wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

Caiden012 wrote...
So it is wrong of me to assume that I should get an experience that is as good or better than the previous game. They are taking away our choices as players and more than just that have been taken from us. Are characters personality was very limited in DA 2 compared to DA:O and that probably wont change.

I think it's wrong of you to assume that the reason you had a good experience with DA:O is the same reason everyone had a good experience. Playing as a dwarf or elf was largely cosmetic. It affected nothing. DA2 was the second game in a series, but no game in a sequel is going to be a copy of the game before, so no, they are not taking away choices. The only way that would be true is if they patched DA:O to only let you play as human.

What do you mean it affected nothing? It decided how you started the game, how some npcs reacted to you, gave you different speech options during the game, gave different endings. It gave us as players to create the character we wanted to make. Dragon Age is a series and it is not wrong of me to expect a similar experience from sequals. 

I've responded to this before. It didn't change that you get recruited into the Wardens, survive Ostagar, get the treaties, go the the Landsmeet, and kill the Archdemon. The story remains the same. And I said that you can have whatever expectations you want, but Oblivion was not Morrowind and Skyrim was not Oblivion. Fallout 2 was not Fallout 1. Sequels are not copies.

I never said a sequal is a copy but it should have mechanics that carry over and anything that changes our abillity as players to make choices is not good. I expect the story to be the same everytime regardless of my choices of race. You can say the same for EVERYTHING in the game. Players want to make choices the affect the world around them. At the end of the day you will go through all those events you listed.

But every choice from race to romance to morality shaped the characters and world around you and THAT is what made origins so amazing. To take that away from us is a kick in the balls and it makes me wonder in Bioware is really listening to their fans.

"Fans" meaning only the people that agree with you, yes?

Yeah because no one else in here is mad about this right?

[Vandicus]

Plaintiff wrote...

Caiden012 wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

Caiden012 wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

Caiden012 wrote...
So it is wrong of me to assume that I should get an experience that is as good or better than the previous game. They are taking away our choices as players and more than just that have been taken from us. Are characters personality was very limited in DA 2 compared to DA:O and that probably wont change.

I think it's wrong of you to assume that the reason you had a good experience with DA:O is the same reason everyone had a good experience. Playing as a dwarf or elf was largely cosmetic. It affected nothing. DA2 was the second game in a series, but no game in a sequel is going to be a copy of the game before, so no, they are not taking away choices. The only way that would be true is if they patched DA:O to only let you play as human.

What do you mean it affected nothing? It decided how you started the game, how some npcs reacted to you, gave you different speech options during the game, gave different endings. It gave us as players to create the character we wanted to make. Dragon Age is a series and it is not wrong of me to expect a similar experience from sequals. 

I've responded to this before. It didn't change that you get recruited into the Wardens, survive Ostagar, get the treaties, go the the Landsmeet, and kill the Archdemon. The story remains the same. And I said that you can have whatever expectations you want, but Oblivion was not Morrowind and Skyrim was not Oblivion. Fallout 2 was not Fallout 1. Sequels are not copies.

I never said a sequal is a copy but it should have mechanics that carry over and anything that changes our abillity as players to make choices is not good. I expect the story to be the same everytime regardless of my choices of race. You can say the same for EVERYTHING in the game. Players want to make choices the affect the world around them. At the end of the day you will go through all those events you listed.

But every choice from race to romance to morality shaped the characters and world around you and THAT is what made origins so amazing. To take that away from us is a kick in the balls and it makes me wonder in Bioware is really listening to their fans.

"Fans" meaning only the people that agree with you, yes?

Isn't that what it always means?

[Monica21]

Caiden012 wrote...
I never said a sequal is a copy but it should have mechanics that carry over and anything that changes our abillity as players to make choices is not good. I expect the story to be the same everytime regardless of my choices of race. You can say the same for EVERYTHING in the game. Players want to make choices the affect the world around them. At the end of the day you will go through all those events you listed.

But every choice from race to romance to morality shaped the characters and world around you and THAT is what made origins so amazing. To take that away from us is a kick in the balls and it makes me wonder in Bioware is really listening to their fans.

Except you make the same choices whether you're elven, dwarven, or human. Limiting race does not change your in-game choices. If you expect the game to be essentially the same regardless of race, then you admit that your choice of race is cosmetic. Your choice of race does not affect the game world.

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

So we are Human again. Really Bioware?

That's why I prefer to play as my Wizard/Ranger half-elf in NWN 1 rather than playing human and one of the few classes in DA2.

[EpicBoot2daFace]

TsaiMeLemoni wrote...

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

TsaiMeLemoni wrote...

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...


Within reason, of course. But forcing the player to adopt a role that removes race selection due to established lore? Not the best idea for player agency.

I don't see how race selection affects player agency more than the actual story. As evidenced in DAO, race essentially means nothing, especially in regards to player agency. The things that did affect it are the blight, the rounding up of allies, and putting an end to the Arch Demon. Unless you're trying to say that the race of the PC should be the instigation of the narrative, and if that's the case, that's a game I don't want to play.

It usually doesn't, but in this case, one directly affects the other.

Can you elaborate on that? In my playthroughs, my city elf didn't face a different blight, or have to pursue different allies than my human or dwarf. They all had the same basic options of defeating the Arch Demon. The story itself plays out the same no matter what you choose. The race doesn't affect the challenges the characters' face, which is what creates the player agency.

If there's something I am missing, please elucidate.

What I meant was, you play as the Inquisitor in DA3. Thus, you must be a human. Do you see how one affects the other?

[Xilizhra]

Except you make the same choices whether you're elven, dwarven, or human. Limiting race does not change your in-game choices. If you expect the game to be essentially the same regardless of race, then you admit that your choice of race is cosmetic. Your choice of race does not affect the game world.

If it's a cosmetic choice still important to the player, why remove it?

[Sylvius the Mad]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Speak for yourself. I would have been totally pumped for a DA:O clone with a new story.

Agreed.  When I get a sequel to a great game, I basically want the same game again with different content.

[Vandicus]

Caiden012 wrote...


Yeah because no one else in here is mad about this right?

You've got all of a dozen or so people on a forum, which is a nonrepresentative sample of the population, mad here. Just cause there is more than one person mad about something, doesn't mean you can speak on behalf of any imaginary majority or whole that you so please.

[xsdob]

FINE HERE wrote...

xsdob wrote...

FINE HERE wrote...

xsdob wrote...

So the chantry stopped being racist against elves and dwarfs? Why wasn't I informed?

Maybe after the whole 'elves are willing to become slaves to the Qun just to escape the racism of humans' openned their eyes a little. If there's something the chantry hates more than elves and dwarves, it's apparently the Qunari.

And according to the chanty, all three are pagans and heretics.

I think they'd bust out the seekers and templars and issue an exterminatus order against the elves before letting them join the higher ranks of the chantry and corrupt andrastes and the makers divine will.

I doubt that. They welcome them into the religon as long as they'll believe in the maker. I'm pretty sure Sebastian said something like that when talking to Fenris...

Sebastian says a lot of things.

In my opinion, listening to sebastians view of the chantry is like listening to merrills view on blood magic and demons before the whole losing her clan thing.

Take it with a sack of salt.

Modifié par xsdob, 21 octobre 2012 - 04:37 .

[unbentbuzzkill]

@caiden012

that's funny nobody listens to their fans anymore, only thing that matters is the bottom line how much of a profit you make in the long run nuff said.

[Monica21]

Xilizhra wrote...

Except you make the same choices whether you're elven, dwarven, or human. Limiting race does not change your in-game choices. If you expect the game to be essentially the same regardless of race, then you admit that your choice of race is cosmetic. Your choice of race does not affect the game world.

If it's a cosmetic choice still important to the player, why remove it?

Money, time, development resources, it doesn't fit the narrative, etc. Lots of reasons.

[FINE HERE]

Vandicus wrote...

Caiden012 wrote...


Yeah because no one else in here is mad about this right?

You've got all of a dozen or so people on a forum, which is a nonrepresentative sample of the population, mad here. Just cause there is more than one person mad about something, doesn't mean you can speak on behalf of any imaginary majority or whole that you so please.

But you can speak for the majority, right? By saying that the people who are complaining don't have a right or reason to be upset by this news? Or that because not everyone else on there forums is complaining with those people, it's not a big deal?

[Sylvius the Mad]

Maria Caliban wrote...

I don't read much Shakespeare, I watch it performed. They're plays.

Some of them are poems.

[TsaiMeLemoni]

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

TsaiMeLemoni wrote...

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

TsaiMeLemoni wrote...

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...


Within reason, of course. But forcing the player to adopt a role that removes race selection due to established lore? Not the best idea for player agency.

I don't see how race selection affects player agency more than the actual story. As evidenced in DAO, race essentially means nothing, especially in regards to player agency. The things that did affect it are the blight, the rounding up of allies, and putting an end to the Arch Demon. Unless you're trying to say that the race of the PC should be the instigation of the narrative, and if that's the case, that's a game I don't want to play.

It usually doesn't, but in this case, one directly affects the other.

Can you elaborate on that? In my playthroughs, my city elf didn't face a different blight, or have to pursue different allies than my human or dwarf. They all had the same basic options of defeating the Arch Demon. The story itself plays out the same no matter what you choose. The race doesn't affect the challenges the characters' face, which is what creates the player agency.

If there's something I am missing, please elucidate.

What I meant was, you play as the Inquisitor in DA3. Thus, you must be a human. Do you see how one affects the other?

To a degree, and I think I was arguing more about DAO than DA3 so part of the confusion is my fault. But even then, player agency isn't lessened. And this may also come down to us having a different definition of player agency, but so long as there are defining moments in the story that progress the narrative, there will be player agency no matter if you're an elf or a toad, or playing an FPS or RPG. It's all about the illusion of choice and importance.

But let's just assume that for a moment DA3 DID offer choice of race, and we still got to be the Inquisitor through whatever contrived means you can think of. Would that really affect player agency? In what way does race selection improve player agency?

I'll apologize in advance if I am coming off as combatative, I promise I am not

[Caiden012]

Monica21 wrote...

Caiden012 wrote...
I never said a sequal is a copy but it should have mechanics that carry over and anything that changes our abillity as players to make choices is not good. I expect the story to be the same everytime regardless of my choices of race. You can say the same for EVERYTHING in the game. Players want to make choices the affect the world around them. At the end of the day you will go through all those events you listed.

But every choice from race to romance to morality shaped the characters and world around you and THAT is what made origins so amazing. To take that away from us is a kick in the balls and it makes me wonder in Bioware is really listening to their fans.

Except you make the same choices whether you're elven, dwarven, or human. Limiting race does not change your in-game choices. If you expect the game to be essentially the same regardless of race, then you admit that your choice of race is cosmetic. Your choice of race does not affect the game world.

But it does. Have you not noticed that people react to you different? That at the end of the game you can as Alistair for a reward that only helps your race? Whether or not race direct affects the story isn't the problem. The fact is that when a player hears "fantasy RPG" they think choice and character customization and race is a big part of make a character that is your own. When I made Hawke and played as him I felt NO connection to him because he was not MY character. I made his face and choose between the 4 personalities he could have but besides that HIS story was already pretty much decided for me. 

[FINE HERE]

xsdob wrote...

FINE HERE wrote...

xsdob wrote...

FINE HERE wrote...

xsdob wrote...

So the chantry stopped being racist against elves and dwarfs? Why wasn't I informed?

Maybe after the whole 'elves are willing to become slaves to the Qun just to escape the racism of humans' openned their eyes a little. If there's something the chantry hates more than elves and dwarves, it's apparently the Qunari.

And according to the chanty, all three are pagans and heretics.

I think they'd bust out the seekers and templars and issue an exterminatus order against the elves before letting them join the higher ranks of the chantry and corrupt andrastes and the makers divine will.

I doubt that. They welcome them into the religon as long as they'll believe in the maker. I'm pretty sure Sebastian said something like that when talking to Fenris...

Sebastian says a lot of things.

In my opinion, listening to sebastians view of the chantry is like listening to merrills view on blood magic and demons before the whole losing her clan thing.

Take it with a sack of salt.

I'd say a guy who spent a large portion of his life devoted to the Chantry would know a whole lot about it.

[Vandicus]

FINE HERE wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Caiden012 wrote...


Yeah because no one else in here is mad about this right?

You've got all of a dozen or so people on a forum, which is a nonrepresentative sample of the population, mad here. Just cause there is more than one person mad about something, doesn't mean you can speak on behalf of any imaginary majority or whole that you so please.

But you can speak for the majority, right? By saying that the people who are complaining don't have a right or reason to be upset by this news? Or that because not everyone else on there forums is complaining with those people, it's not a big deal?

Thanks for putting words in my mouth. Love when people do that. Show me where I spoke for a majority. I took offense when he said I wasn't a fan(because the fans are upset, and I am not upset, I am thereby not considered a fan). Did I say you have no reason to be upset, much less that people don't have a right to be upset? Did I say that a lack of racial options are not a big deal?

[Plaintiff]

Caiden012 wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

"Fans" meaning only the people that agree with you, yes?

Yeah because no one else in here is mad about this right?

That's not even similar to what I said.

Yes, other people are mad about this. Other people are also happy about it, and other people don't care, but according to you, they don't count as Bioware's "fans", even though they play Bioware's games and post on this forum.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 21 octobre 2012 - 04:42 .

[Uzzy]

Vandicus wrote...

It would be patently absurd for an Orlesian noble to treat an elf with any respect. The game has portions in Orlais, and we know that PC is supposed to be a person of political influence. In order to address interactions(and the extreme disdain the murder-happy Orlesians would logically have for an elf), a huge amount of content would most likely have to be devoted to it. This is only one example in which race would require extensive content to avoid absurdity. Moreover, this may shift the narrative in a way which makes it difficult to keep with the main plot, causing narrative breakdowns.

Fereldan on the whole was very racially tolerant, and a wide variety of circumstances contributed to limiting how freely anti-race X people would act. In Orlais, the response would be a war of assassins.

Completely avoiding addressing race(in other words treating the PC as human regardless of race chosen) can be done, but it breaks immersion in a way that it appears Bioware does not like. Actually including appropriate reactions is either plot breaking, or far beyond their available resources.

The first part is quite easily explainable, really. You are the representative of an organisation, not just yourself, so even if the Orlesian nobles don't treat you respectfully, they still have to respect your rank in said organisation. That's a very easy way to do it, really. Not perfect or pretty, but it'd give us all different race options and avoid the more absurd situations.

Now, if we could have fully detailed responses to ones race, like the aforementioned war of assassins, or maybe forcing an Elven/Dwarvish PC to go down a different plot, then that'd be awesome. But I'd be fine with a brief, reasonable explanation as to why your Elven Inquisitor doesn't get thrown out of Orlais in act one. Simple really.

And, again.. to go back to my first point, had Bioware been concerned about the consequences to the plot of your PC being X or Y, then running around as a mage in Kirkwall would have been very different. But apparently it was acceptable to entirely avoid addressing that gaping plothole in favour of allowing class choice. Why not extend that to race choice?

[Sylvius the Mad]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

I despise the idea of anything that forces me to spend more time planning to play.

I despise the idea of anything that discourages me from spending more time planning to play.

Luckily, there is middle ground.  Allowing pre-planning without requiring would serve both of our preferences.

Sadly, DA2's design was openly antagonistic to pre-planning.  I'd like them not to do that again.

[Dave of Canada]

Considering I knew Origins weren't going to return, this pleases me as it's what I've been asking for.

[Caiden012]

unbentbuzzkill wrote...

@caiden012

that's funny nobody listens to their fans anymore, only thing that matters is the bottom line how much of a profit you make in the long run nuff said.

That isn't the feel I got from DA:O but that is the feeling I have gotten from DA2 and it is all I have seen from DA3 so far. It is really disappointing that such great story tellers like Bio have gone down like this.

[xsdob]

FINE HERE wrote...

xsdob wrote...

FINE HERE wrote...

xsdob wrote...

FINE HERE wrote...

xsdob wrote...

So the chantry stopped being racist against elves and dwarfs? Why wasn't I informed?

Maybe after the whole 'elves are willing to become slaves to the Qun just to escape the racism of humans' openned their eyes a little. If there's something the chantry hates more than elves and dwarves, it's apparently the Qunari.

And according to the chanty, all three are pagans and heretics.

I think they'd bust out the seekers and templars and issue an exterminatus order against the elves before letting them join the higher ranks of the chantry and corrupt andrastes and the makers divine will.

I doubt that. They welcome them into the religon as long as they'll believe in the maker. I'm pretty sure Sebastian said something like that when talking to Fenris...

Sebastian says a lot of things.

In my opinion, listening to sebastians view of the chantry is like listening to merrills view on blood magic and demons before the whole losing her clan thing.

Take it with a sack of salt.

I'd say a guy who spent a large portion of his life devoted to the Chantry would know a whole lot about it.

True, but it also could be so slanted from all that training and upbringing that he might not even aknowledge the bad things they do exist.

Modifié par xsdob, 21 octobre 2012 - 04:44 .

[Caiden012]

Plaintiff wrote...

Caiden012 wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

"Fans" meaning only the people that agree with you, yes?

Yeah because no one else in here is mad about this right?

That's not even similar to what I said.

Yes, other people are mad about this. Other people are also happy about it, and other people don't care, but according to you, they don't count as Bioware's "fans", even though they play Bioware's games and post on this forum.

How many fans asked not to get more choices? 

[Sylvius the Mad]

GardenSnake wrote...

I don't think you get it. Forcing us to play as a human already makes it so that the character isn't ours.

This is a reasonable position.  Even for those players who prefer to play humans anyway, by forcing us to play a human that means the choice to play human can't be meaningful.  These players often speak of desiring meaningful choices, but when this choice is taken away from them they don't seem to recognise the loss.

That said, there are many good reasons why we might be limited to a single race.  Some games just wouldn't make as much sense with race selection.  The race selection in Baldur's Gate wasn't even particularly well supported (elven characters should have been older than Gorion, for example).