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So we are Human again. Really Bioware?


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#501
LobselVith8

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xsdob wrote...

Sebastian says a lot of things.

In my opinion, listening to sebastians view of the chantry is like listening to merrills view on blood magic and demons before the whole losing her clan thing.

Take it with a sack of salt.


Merrill doesn't share the Andrastian view of Spirits and Demons, of them being the "First Children of the Maker," of Demons embodying different sins according to the Andrastian faith. Merrill is Dalish, so this shouldn't be a surprise to anyone that she has different religious views.

#502
Monica21

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Caiden012 wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

Caiden012 wrote...
I never said a sequal is a copy but it should have mechanics that carry over and anything that changes our abillity as players to make choices is not good. I expect the story to be the same everytime regardless of my choices of race. You can say the same for EVERYTHING in the game. Players want to make choices the affect the world around them. At the end of the day you will go through all those events you listed.

But every choice from race to romance to morality shaped the characters and world around you and THAT is what made origins so amazing. To take that away from us is a kick in the balls and it makes me wonder in Bioware is really listening to their fans.

Except you make the same choices whether you're elven, dwarven, or human. Limiting race does not change your in-game choices. If you expect the game to be essentially the same regardless of race, then you admit that your choice of race is cosmetic. Your choice of race does not affect the game world.


But it does. Have you not noticed that people react to you different? That at the end of the game you can as Alistair for a reward that only helps your race? Whether or not race direct affects the story isn't the problem. The fact is that when a player hears "fantasy RPG" they think choice and character customization and race is a big part of make a character that is your own. When I made Hawke and played as him I felt NO connection to him because he was not MY character. I made his face and choose between the 4 personalities he could have but besides that HIS story was already pretty much decided for me. 

People reacting to you differently is not an effect on the game world. You still get to the Circle Tower the same way. You still decide whether to save Redcliffe or not. You still have to get the Sacred Ashes. You still have to go into the Deep Roads to find Branka. You still have to resolve the crisis between the Dalish and the werewolves. Race plays no part in whether those things get done.

I will agree that there needs to be more player agency, but I don't think the best or only way to accomplish that is through race selection.

#503
Vandicus

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Uzzy wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

It would be patently absurd for an Orlesian noble to treat an elf with any respect. The game has portions in Orlais, and we know that PC is supposed to be a person of political influence. In order to address interactions(and the extreme disdain the murder-happy Orlesians would logically have for an elf), a huge amount of content would most likely have to be devoted to it. This is only one example in which race would require extensive content to avoid absurdity. Moreover, this may shift the narrative in a way which makes it difficult to keep with the main plot, causing narrative breakdowns.

Fereldan on the whole was very racially tolerant, and a wide variety of circumstances contributed to limiting how freely anti-race X people would act. In Orlais, the response would be a war of assassins.

Completely avoiding addressing race(in other words treating the PC as human regardless of race chosen) can be done, but it breaks immersion in a way that it appears Bioware does not like. Actually including appropriate reactions is either plot breaking, or far beyond their available resources.


The first part is quite easily explainable, really. You are the representative of an organisation, not just yourself, so even if the Orlesian nobles don't treat you respectfully, they still have to respect your rank in said organisation. That's a very easy way to do it, really. Not perfect or pretty, but it'd give us all different race options and avoid the more absurd situations.

Now, if we could have fully detailed responses to ones race, like the aforementioned war of assassins, or maybe forcing an Elven/Dwarvish PC to go down a different plot, then that'd be awesome. But I'd be fine with a brief, reasonable explanation as to why your Elven Inquisitor doesn't get thrown out of Orlais in act one. Simple really.

And, again.. to go back to my first point, had Bioware been concerned about the consequences to the plot of your PC being X or Y, then running around as a mage in Kirkwall would have been very different. But apparently it was acceptable to entirely avoid addressing that gaping plothole in favour of allowing class choice. Why not extend that to race choice?


Feel free to go over their plot and dissect it afterwards, and then come up with viable resource limited plot deviations that can solve the problem. Unless the Orlesians have some reason to kowtow to the Inquisitor, organizatial position is hardly sufficient reason for them to be respectful. They try to kill societally superior individuals all the time, would they hesitate to kill an elf putting on airs, or a Keeper of a Dalish clan.

Its easy to say that doing task X isn't difficult, its much harder to actually do it. When the devs tell me that they can't do something for plot reasons, I believe them. Maybe you could fix all their plot problems in a way that the writers would find palatable, feel free to offer your services. Its apparent by their own statements that their own staff was unable to resolve these issues, if you can, more power to you.

#504
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Uzzy wrote...

And, again.. to go back to my first point, had Bioware been concerned about the consequences to the plot of your PC being X or Y, then running around as a mage in Kirkwall would have been very different. But apparently it was acceptable to entirely avoid addressing that gaping plothole in favour of allowing class choice. Why not extend that to race choice?


This is a question I still have yet to get a straight answer.

#505
thats1evildude

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I find background to be more relevant than race. I would never have played an elf in DAO if the City Elf origin wasn't present.

#506
Caiden012

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Monica21 wrote...

Caiden012 wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

Caiden012 wrote...
I never said a sequal is a copy but it should have mechanics that carry over and anything that changes our abillity as players to make choices is not good. I expect the story to be the same everytime regardless of my choices of race. You can say the same for EVERYTHING in the game. Players want to make choices the affect the world around them. At the end of the day you will go through all those events you listed.

But every choice from race to romance to morality shaped the characters and world around you and THAT is what made origins so amazing. To take that away from us is a kick in the balls and it makes me wonder in Bioware is really listening to their fans.

Except you make the same choices whether you're elven, dwarven, or human. Limiting race does not change your in-game choices. If you expect the game to be essentially the same regardless of race, then you admit that your choice of race is cosmetic. Your choice of race does not affect the game world.


But it does. Have you not noticed that people react to you different? That at the end of the game you can as Alistair for a reward that only helps your race? Whether or not race direct affects the story isn't the problem. The fact is that when a player hears "fantasy RPG" they think choice and character customization and race is a big part of make a character that is your own. When I made Hawke and played as him I felt NO connection to him because he was not MY character. I made his face and choose between the 4 personalities he could have but besides that HIS story was already pretty much decided for me. 

People reacting to you differently is not an effect on the game world. You still get to the Circle Tower the same way. You still decide whether to save Redcliffe or not. You still have to get the Sacred Ashes. You still have to go into the Deep Roads to find Branka. You still have to resolve the crisis between the Dalish and the werewolves. Race plays no part in whether those things get done.

I will agree that there needs to be more player agency, but I don't think the best or only way to accomplish that is through race selection.


But its not JUST about race selection at this point. Dispite the fact that you had one objectve in origins there were so many ways to make it your own story and shape the world. But in DA2 the story and that feeling were made more linear. And now some of the only things we know about DA3 is that we are going to be part of the chantry and that we are required to be a human. The story is already sound more linear than before. I want an experience that I shape when I play Dragon Age.

#507
Monica21

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Faerunner wrote...

Uzzy wrote...

And, again.. to go back to my first point, had Bioware been concerned about the consequences to the plot of your PC being X or Y, then running around as a mage in Kirkwall would have been very different. But apparently it was acceptable to entirely avoid addressing that gaping plothole in favour of allowing class choice. Why not extend that to race choice?


This is a question I still have yet to get a straight answer.

This is a valid point, but I also think that since nearly everyone saw the problem with playing mage Hawke, BioWare could possibly be avoiding a similar plot hole by only offering a human protaganist in Inquisition. But, I don't know since I don't know the story. I also don't think that BioWare necessarily thought it was acceptable, but that the extremely short development cycle didn't allow them time to fill that plot hole.

#508
Maria Caliban

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Monica21 wrote...

Except Sophia Dryden got herself and the Ferelden Wardens involved in a civil war, and actually for excellent reasons.

Doing something for excellent reasons doesn't mean that doing something is smart or right.

As a result of her actions, the Wardens got booted from Ferelden. If a Blight had happened before King Cullen let them returned, the country would have been defenseless and overrun with darkspawn. Her 'excellent reasons' not only involved forsaking her oath but endangering the lives of everyone in the country.

#509
unbentbuzzkill

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Didn't the exact same thing happen when they announced hawke as DA2 protag ( imean the outrage over lack of control races, origins, etc). so what makes you think bioware would listen now. In imo they would only truly listen if enough people get pissed off and say i'm not buying this game but we all know that will never happen and so does bioware.

#510
Monica21

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Caiden012 wrote...
But its not JUST about race selection at this point. Dispite the fact that you had one objectve in origins there were so many ways to make it your own story and shape the world. But in DA2 the story and that feeling were made more linear. And now some of the only things we know about DA3 is that we are going to be part of the chantry and that we are required to be a human. The story is already sound more linear than before. I want an experience that I shape when I play Dragon Age.

Well, you're right. It's not just about race selection. There should be opportunities to shape the world around you, but those opportunities don't have to come from how Orlesians react to your inferior elven bloodline. And I do agree with you about Hawke: I liked the story just fine, but I felt too much like Varric's character and not a character I'd created. So yes, within the story there should be more opportunity to shape the world around you, but that opportunity does not have to be developed through race selection.

#511
Elohim_07

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Loving it! Specially the part of being Human! Finally a different feel of what my life really is! :o

Would we have the options to customize such castle like adding stuff/ people with skills that change the outcome of castle battles or items at store? Can we have castle battles where defending it strategically is achievable (adding archers, oil spill, watch towers, catapults, ok I just got way off...

See I'm not human at all... Just saying!

#512
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Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Yeah, I don't think we've seen anything designed specifically for people who liked DA:O but hated DA II.

Equipping companions.

The proposal for companion customisation we saw earlier is a slight refinement of the DAO system, and a complete rejection of the DA2 system.

That's certainly something we've seen that caters directly to DAO fans who didn't like some aspect of DA2.

Considering that people who liked DA2 also seemed to approve of the proposal by and large, I don't see how you can say it was designed "specifically for people who hated DA2."

#513
Caiden012

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unbentbuzzkill wrote...

Didn't the exact same thing happen when they announced hawke as DA2 protag ( imean the outrage over lack of control races, origins, etc). so what makes you think bioware would listen now. In imo they would only truly listen if enough people get pissed off and say i'm not buying this game but we all know that will never happen and so does bioware.


I also don't like that we got a "Yeah you don't get to make your own character in this game but you will in the future!" Yeah cause that makes it so much better.

#514
Monica21

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Maria Caliban wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

Except Sophia Dryden got herself and the Ferelden Wardens involved in a civil war, and actually for excellent reasons.

Doing something for excellent reasons doesn't mean that doing something is smart or right.

As a result of her actions, the Wardens got booted from Ferelden. If a Blight had happened before King Cullen let them returned, the country would have been defenseless and overrun with darkspawn. Her 'excellent reasons' not only involved forsaking her oath but endangering the lives of everyone in the country.

Yes, but that wasn't my point. The discussion was about whether Wardens involve themselves in politics, and they not only have a history of doing so when it comes to Sophia Dryden, but are currently doing so as the Arl of Amaranthine. The Wardens like to say they stay away from politics, but they are very influential in Orlais and are becoming more influential in Ferelden.

Edited to add: Forgot to mention the likelihood of a King Alistair, which makes the Wardens very powerful in Ferelden.

Modifié par Monica21, 21 octobre 2012 - 05:08 .


#515
Caiden012

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Monica21 wrote...

Caiden012 wrote...
But its not JUST about race selection at this point. Dispite the fact that you had one objectve in origins there were so many ways to make it your own story and shape the world. But in DA2 the story and that feeling were made more linear. And now some of the only things we know about DA3 is that we are going to be part of the chantry and that we are required to be a human. The story is already sound more linear than before. I want an experience that I shape when I play Dragon Age.

Well, you're right. It's not just about race selection. There should be opportunities to shape the world around you, but those opportunities don't have to come from how Orlesians react to your inferior elven bloodline. And I do agree with you about Hawke: I liked the story just fine, but I felt too much like Varric's character and not a character I'd created. So yes, within the story there should be more opportunity to shape the world around you, but that opportunity does not have to be developed through race selection.


But a loss of race selection is not something that gives me much hope. I feel like being able to select ones race is very basic to give players a chance to connect to their characters. I went to a Bioware panel during Pax 2012 and heard them say that they were going to give players choices but so far all I have heard is limitations.

#516
thats1evildude

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Monica21 wrote...

Yes, but that wasn't my point. The discussion was about whether Wardens involve themselves in politics, and they not only have a history of doing so when it comes to Sophia Dryden, but are currently doing so as the Arl of Amaranthine. The Wardens like to say they stay away from politics, but they are very influential in Orlais and are becoming more influential in Ferelden.


The Amaranthine situation is a bit unique because the ruler of Ferelden specifically granted Arl Howe's lands to the Wardens in order for them to re-build. It's even mentioned in Awakening that this is a unique case.

What Sophia Dryden did had very little to do with her duty as a Warden. She used them for her own political gain and revenge. It's probably what inspired the Order's reluctance to involve themselves in politics.

#517
Shadow Fox

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Faerunner wrote...

Oh goody, we get to play another human in another game that includes fantasy races but we can't actually play as those fantasy races. You can look at them and you can sleep with them, but you can't actually play them. They serve as pretty little decorations to give it the fantasy look, but not the fantasy feel.

It's also really nice that BioWare will go to all the trouble to make dozens of different types of armor that each change shape for every character that wears them, but race selection? Too much time and effort for something so frivolous. Because really, let's be honest, nothing says profound character customization quite like hair and outfits. Racial backgrounds and how they affect your character culturally, socially, emotionally and psychologically? How they change who you are, how others see you, how you see others and how the world sees your socio/economic/cultural background through your decisions through your adventures? Being able to experience different racial and cultural backgrounds that you couldn't experience as the "default" (since every Companion and NPC will ultimately see you as a human and treat you as a human and vice-versa)? Purely superficial and unneeded. Let's go back to making more outfits and landscapes.

I'm going back to Kickstarter.

I'm going back to Bethesda. safe journeys:bandit:.

#518
axl99

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It boggles my mind the sheer irony that users can be racist towards humans. That aside, what is more important than fussing over appearances, is the strength of character in a protagonist who we make our gameplay decisions through. The notion we can have more protagonist backstory options to choose from is a healthy compromise.

#519
Dhiro

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Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Terrorize69 wrote...

Now the next thing we will be waiting to hear is if our PC will have and be restricted to just a Orlesain accent.


I'd be totally okay with that.

If our character is Orlesian, I'll be really annoyed if he doesn't have an Orlesian accent.

Unless they just decide that Orlesians don't have that accent in DA3, but that would be a really strange thing for BioWare to do given their apparent interest in inter-game continuity.


Bless you, Sylvius.

#520
Monica21

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thats1evildude wrote...
The Amaranthine situation is a bit unique because the ruler of Ferelden specifically granted Arl Howe's lands to the Wardens in order for them to re-build. It's even mentioned in Awakening that this is a unique case.

Yes, it's unique, but it also has the direct involvement of the First Warden. I believe there's even speculation that it's something of a trial run to see how people react to a local Warden ruler.

What Sophia Dryden did had very little to do with her duty as a Warden. She used them for her own political gain and revenge. It's probably what inspired the Order's reluctance to involve themselves in politics.

Sophia was asked by members of the Bannorn to fight against Arland. Yes, she used the Wardens but many of them left her. The Wardens were reluctant before the Dryden situation.

#521
Plaintiff

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Monica21 wrote...

Faerunner wrote...

Uzzy wrote...

And, again.. to go back to my first point, had Bioware been concerned about the consequences to the plot of your PC being X or Y, then running around as a mage in Kirkwall would have been very different. But apparently it was acceptable to entirely avoid addressing that gaping plothole in favour of allowing class choice. Why not extend that to race choice?


This is a question I still have yet to get a straight answer.

This is a valid point, but I also think that since nearly everyone saw the problem with playing mage Hawke, BioWare could possibly be avoiding a similar plot hole by only offering a human protaganist in Inquisition. But, I don't know since I don't know the story. I also don't think that BioWare necessarily thought it was acceptable, but that the extremely short development cycle didn't allow them time to fill that plot hole.

I don't see it as a plothole. Kirkwall's Templars are clearly incompetent.

#522
Maria Caliban

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Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

I don't read much Shakespeare, I watch it performed. They're plays.

Some of them are poems.

Touché.

#523
unbentbuzzkill

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Before DA3 was officially announced there were rumos that bioware was seeking inspiration from games like skyrim etc. so that gave me a small ray of hope. I mean really have any of you ever played skyrim the game is immense race origin and background wise, then they announce that you can only play as a human in DA3 that seems like a huge step backwards imo.

#524
Demx

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Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Terrorize69 wrote...

Now the next thing we will be waiting to hear is if our PC will have and be restricted to just a Orlesain accent.


I'd be totally okay with that.

If our character is Orlesian, I'll be really annoyed if he doesn't have an Orlesian accent.

Unless they just decide that Orlesians don't have that accent in DA3, but that would be a really strange thing for BioWare to do given their apparent interest in inter-game continuity.


Nah he'll be a Ferelden whose family managed to make it to Orlais. He'll be living in the slums to make owning castle worthwhile. Gotta put that rags to riches somewhere in the story about becoming a man.

#525
PaulSX

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thats1evildude wrote...

I find background to be more relevant than race. I would never have played an elf in DAO if the City Elf origin wasn't present.


Agree, race options are never really that critical for most people. one of DAO's major selling points is the origin stories, not races, but some just like to exaggerate this issue in order to complain.