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Please abandon the whole save import concept. DA3 should be its own game.


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#226
sarcastictruths

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MillKill wrote...

draken-heart wrote...


I give up, this thread seems to be right but it also seems to be wrong... The itallics is what i am confused about, how does it handcuff writers when it is in the Background, and they are focusing on the current game? And how is creating a set canon any different or better when it forces the writers to the very thing importing a save can do?


Writing dialogue, recording it, editing it, doing cinematic work, designing gameplay around it, coding it and bugtesting everything are all expensive processes that require an investment of time, labor, and money. These development resources are not unlimited. Having to do all this to account for previous choices in a major way is tough because it means you need to do it all at least twice. This means that, if the save import is included, Bioware has to devote significant resources to things not every player will even see. 

If a save import is included, it is a better use of resources to make the impacts of each choice smaller such as a few altered lines, small sidequests, and brief cameos.

If a set canon is chosen, Bioware can devote it's reources to making reaction to one set of choices much more impactful instead of spreading themselves thin trying to accomodate everybody. This means previous plotlines and characters can have major roles instead of being pushed to the sidelines.


No one has unlimited resources. If you want to say a game will become better if you cut certain things then the same could be said of any  tool the developers use. The storyline can be increased if we took away the option of customizing our own character. So, as well as taking away the save import let's get rid of that as well. It probably can be increased if we did away with voices as well. I'm not saying that the game would become worse if these things or any others were taken away, but I do these are what made Dragon Age what it is.

#227
Rune-Chan

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MillKill wrote...

sarcastictruths wrote...


If you destoryed the ashes in the urn quest then the hawker isn't standing around trying to sell 'pinches of the ashes' But, if you save the ashes then he is there. I would say that is a nod to that decison, It might not be as big of one as people might help, but it still is one.

Same with Orzammar if you side with Bhelan you get a quest where you can help a Harromont. Varric will also mention whichever King rules Orzammar in conversation. Again, the impact might not be as big as the player desire.

Then there is Alistair. He shows up at the tavern if you refuse to kill Loghain and kept Alistair alive. At the Viscount's keep if you made him king, and with the Grey Wardens when the Arisok makes his big move. And again, the impact might not be big enough for some players.


This illustrates my point about imports making choices meaninglessness. A small cameo, a few altered lines, and some irrelevant sidequests are all that we'll ever see from big choices. It also means that Orzammar's ruler and the ruler(s) of Fereldan will never be allowed to have an important role again.

Even in Mass Effect, the supposedly big choices had no impact. Bioware has failed to make the import feature's benefits outweigh it's costs three times in a row. I have no reason to doubt it wil continue to fail to do so in DA3.


I do not disagree that the imports add very little point and depth to the choices (the way Bioware does them anyway). But how exactly does getting rid of it make it any better?

If I killed Loghain and he is alive in the next game as it's canon, then that makes my choice completely meaningless, as opposed to mostly. If as far as the games world is concerned, what I did never happened, then why have choices at all?

Or are you suggesting they do something else? Please give examples of what you mean in regards to how they can make choices matter more as opposed to less. This is a genuine query, as I cannot really think of how it would be better in regards to choice. I can see how it would make the story stronger, but not choices.

Modifié par Machines Are Us, 25 octobre 2012 - 10:30 .


#228
draken-heart

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Machines Are Us wrote...

MillKill wrote...

sarcastictruths wrote...


If you destoryed the ashes in the urn quest then the hawker isn't standing around trying to sell 'pinches of the ashes' But, if you save the ashes then he is there. I would say that is a nod to that decison, It might not be as big of one as people might help, but it still is one.

Same with Orzammar if you side with Bhelan you get a quest where you can help a Harromont. Varric will also mention whichever King rules Orzammar in conversation. Again, the impact might not be as big as the player desire.

Then there is Alistair. He shows up at the tavern if you refuse to kill Loghain and kept Alistair alive. At the Viscount's keep if you made him king, and with the Grey Wardens when the Arisok makes his big move. And again, the impact might not be big enough for some players.


This illustrates my point about imports making choices meaninglessness. A small cameo, a few altered lines, and some irrelevant sidequests are all that we'll ever see from big choices. It also means that Orzammar's ruler and the ruler(s) of Fereldan will never be allowed to have an important role again.

Even in Mass Effect, the supposedly big choices had no impact. Bioware has failed to make the import feature's benefits outweigh it's costs three times in a row. I have no reason to doubt it wil continue to fail to do so in DA3.


I do not disagree that the imports add very little point and depth to the choices (the way Bioware does them anyway). But how exactly does getting rid of it make it any better?

If I killed Loghain and he is alive in the next game as it's canon, then that makes my choice completely meaningless, as opposed to mostly. If as far as the games world is concerned, what I did never happened, then why have choices at all?

Or are you suggesting they do something else? Please give examples of what you mean in regards to how they can make choices matter more as opposed to less. This is a genuine query, as I cannot really think of how it would be better in regards to choice. I can see how it would make the story stronger, but not choices.


Bolded is essentially what they are saying.

Modifié par draken-heart, 25 octobre 2012 - 10:32 .


#229
milena87

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draken-heart wrote...

Why not go a little better and allow us to choose some of the major choices (Ferelden's ruler(s), King of Orzamar, Etc.)?


Well, some major choices may appear major only to us, certainly. Maybe the devs already decided that some of them will not change the outcome much and we could also choose them at the beginning.

#230
draken-heart

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milena87 wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

Why not go a little better and allow us to choose some of the major choices (Ferelden's ruler(s), King of Orzamar, Etc.)?


Well, some major choices may appear major only to us, certainly. Maybe the devs already decided that some of them will not change the outcome much and we could also choose them at the beginning.


or they could do a super-vague description of what happened in Origins and DA2, that woul dfix everything because they would not have to worry about creating a canon set of choices and everyone and imagine that their choices are canon.

#231
sarcastictruths

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draken-heart wrote...

milena87 wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

Why not go a little better and allow us to choose some of the major choices (Ferelden's ruler(s), King of Orzamar, Etc.)?


Well, some major choices may appear major only to us, certainly. Maybe the devs already decided that some of them will not change the outcome much and we could also choose them at the beginning.


or they could do a super-vague description of what happened in Origins and DA2, that woul dfix everything because they would not have to worry about creating a canon set of choices and everyone and imagine that their choices are canon.


The vaguer the better.

#232
draken-heart

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sarcastictruths wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

milena87 wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

Why not go a little better and allow us to choose some of the major choices (Ferelden's ruler(s), King of Orzamar, Etc.)?


Well, some major choices may appear major only to us, certainly. Maybe the devs already decided that some of them will not change the outcome much and we could also choose them at the beginning.


or they could do a super-vague description of what happened in Origins and DA2, that woul dfix everything because they would not have to worry about creating a canon set of choices and everyone and imagine that their choices are canon.


The vaguer the better.


yeah, that way, everyone gets their canon without the import, plus they do not have to do anything other than let us describe the warden and Hawke.

#233
Rune-Chan

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draken-heart wrote...

sarcastictruths wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

milena87 wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

Why not go a little better and allow us to choose some of the major choices (Ferelden's ruler(s), King of Orzamar, Etc.)?


Well, some major choices may appear major only to us, certainly. Maybe the devs already decided that some of them will not change the outcome much and we could also choose them at the beginning.


or they could do a super-vague description of what happened in Origins and DA2, that woul dfix everything because they would not have to worry about creating a canon set of choices and everyone and imagine that their choices are canon.


The vaguer the better.


yeah, that way, everyone gets their canon without the import, plus they do not have to do anything other than let us describe the warden and Hawke.


Well that's what I am hoping for personally. I'd much rather they went with minor imports that just let us keep consistency.

It didn't work with Mass Effect because it was essentially (supposed to be) one story told in three parts. It failed because they championed the idea of decisions mattering in sequels, and they didn't.

It will work for DA because the stories are self contained and with different characters, so they don't really need to have much to carry on. All they need to do really is stop making characters that they want to be important later on killable.

Modifié par Machines Are Us, 25 octobre 2012 - 10:52 .


#234
sarcastictruths

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draken-heart wrote...

sarcastictruths wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

milena87 wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

Why not go a little better and allow us to choose some of the major choices (Ferelden's ruler(s), King of Orzamar, Etc.)?


Well, some major choices may appear major only to us, certainly. Maybe the devs already decided that some of them will not change the outcome much and we could also choose them at the beginning.


or they could do a super-vague description of what happened in Origins and DA2, that woul dfix everything because they would not have to worry about creating a canon set of choices and everyone and imagine that their choices are canon.


The vaguer the better.


yeah, that way, everyone gets their canon without the import, plus they do not have to do anything other than let us describe the warden and Hawke.


Yeah, and with this new import Hawke can become a dwarf or an elf, because that was another issue people seemed to have with the second installment of the game. With only the vaguest description then it wouldn't matter what Hawke or the Warden looked like.

#235
draken-heart

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sarcastictruths wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

sarcastictruths wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

milena87 wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

Why not go a little better and allow us to choose some of the major choices (Ferelden's ruler(s), King of Orzamar, Etc.)?


Well, some major choices may appear major only to us, certainly. Maybe the devs already decided that some of them will not change the outcome much and we could also choose them at the beginning.


or they could do a super-vague description of what happened in Origins and DA2, that woul dfix everything because they would not have to worry about creating a canon set of choices and everyone and imagine that their choices are canon.


The vaguer the better.


yeah, that way, everyone gets their canon without the import, plus they do not have to do anything other than let us describe the warden and Hawke.


Yeah, and with this new import Hawke can become a dwarf or an elf, because that was another issue people seemed to have with the second installment of the game. With only the vaguest description then it wouldn't matter what Hawke or the Warden looked like.


yeah, this solves this whole issue. lets send this idea to Bioware devs right now.

#236
sarcastictruths

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Machines Are Us wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

sarcastictruths wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

milena87 wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

Why not go a little better and allow us to choose some of the major choices (Ferelden's ruler(s), King of Orzamar, Etc.)?


Well, some major choices may appear major only to us, certainly. Maybe the devs already decided that some of them will not change the outcome much and we could also choose them at the beginning.


or they could do a super-vague description of what happened in Origins and DA2, that woul dfix everything because they would not have to worry about creating a canon set of choices and everyone and imagine that their choices are canon.


The vaguer the better.


yeah, that way, everyone gets their canon without the import, plus they do not have to do anything other than let us describe the warden and Hawke.


Well that's what I am hoping for personally. I'd much rather they went with minor imports that just let us keep consistency.
It didn't work with Mass Effect because it was essentially (supposed to be) one story told in three parts. It failed because they championed the idea of decisions mattering in sequels, and they didn't.

It will work for DA because the stories are self contained and with different characters, so they don't really need to have much to carry on. All they need to do really is stop making characters that they want to be important later on killable.


That's probably a good idea. I thought Mass effect did a good job of keeping characters who were killed dead. Not saying that a person can't live through something that should have killed them. It happens all the time.

#237
sarcastictruths

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draken-heart wrote...

sarcastictruths wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

sarcastictruths wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

milena87 wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

Why not go a little better and allow us to choose some of the major choices (Ferelden's ruler(s), King of Orzamar, Etc.)?


Well, some major choices may appear major only to us, certainly. Maybe the devs already decided that some of them will not change the outcome much and we could also choose them at the beginning.


or they could do a super-vague description of what happened in Origins and DA2, that woul dfix everything because they would not have to worry about creating a canon set of choices and everyone and imagine that their choices are canon.


The vaguer the better.


yeah, that way, everyone gets their canon without the import, plus they do not have to do anything other than let us describe the warden and Hawke.


Yeah, and with this new import Hawke can become a dwarf or an elf, because that was another issue people seemed to have with the second installment of the game. With only the vaguest description then it wouldn't matter what Hawke or the Warden looked like.


yeah, this solves this whole issue. lets send this idea to Bioware devs right now.


It most certaintly does. I am certain that a member from Bioware will read this read, and go ' Why that is the cleverest thing anyone came up with let us impliment it now'

#238
Fast Jimmy

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The vaguer the...


Do you all hear yourselves?

Yes, setting a canon would tread on the toes of those who did not make a certain decision. I'm sorry, but it you chose to spare or kill Loghain and the canon goes against that, then that's the way things will have happened. But, with the import flags, he's dead anyway, for all intents and purposes. Because Bioware can't invest enough resources to make sure that previous choice is brought back in any sort of significant way.

The Anvil is a good example of this. If you save it, the Dearven kingdom creates armies of golems, armies which give them the power to actually begin retaking the Deep Roads and pushing the Darkspawn back.

Think about that - pushing the Darkspawn back. We're talking about a reclaimed and expanded Dwarven empire. That's a world changer. We're talking about the Darkspawn's numbers possibly diminished before a Blight even starts. That's a world changer. We're talking the possibility mentioned in the epilogue slides that the Dwarves will begin abducting surfaces to sacrifice to create golems. THAT'S A WORLD CHANGER.

But... it's not. Because the choice itself can't be given any worthwhile recognition. So a canon of sorts will be set, essentially to the choice that will have the least impact to the main story. The canon of destroying the Anvil IS set... mostly because they need to do everything possible to ignore the choice in future games now.

The Urn of Sacred Ashes is another good one. A holy relic of unparalleled significance is found and could possibly become a new Mecca. The Chantry would now have a claim to the validity to their religion (and, hence, ALL of its tenets like, say, Magic Should Serve Man, Not Rule Him). They would be able to have the number of converts shoot through the roof and their influence would increase - not to mention they would have access to a substance that could heal any wound/sickness/affliction in case of true emegency.

Given that we are on the eve of a war based on Chantry principles, how does having the most powerful and significant religious artifact to said religion NOT play into the story? But it won't... a default canon will be set anyway, saying the Urn doesn't matter, because that is the result of ignoring/diminishing the choice. The canon is that the Urn was defiled (except that Leliana is alive, so maybe not defiled, but Brother Genitivi is murder knifed by the Warden and the Urn moved by an unknown group).

The above two examples show that mostly ignoring a choice pretty much sets a canon choice, regardless. Did you think at the end of DA2 when you'd sided with the Mages/Templars, that would affect things in DA3? Well, likely it won't. It's going to default to a canon Templat playthrough (since ignoring the choice means that most of the Circle was butchered, not saved, making it like the Circle was Annulled). So congratulations, the inability to ever acknowledge imports in real ways has led to every Mage supporter having the exact same impact on the world as a Hawke that wanted to purge every Mage from Kirkwall.

A set canon isn't perfect, but it at least let's the writers use old characters and concepts again. You may not have killed Loghain, but if he'a dead in the canon, you may see Anora not on the throne, but plotting with one side of the Mage/Templar War to lend her support, adding a really good subplot to the upcoming war. You may not have sided with the werewolves or killed Merril's clan, but it would be an interesting facet of the story if the Dalish were siding against the Mages, due to many of their clans recently being murdered by the fallout from their Apostate Keepers. You may not have given the idol fragment to Varric in DA2, but seeing Varric in DA3, driven mad be it, making him a pale shadows of his former self, would be a scene that really pulls on our heart strings.

I'm not saying to make choices canon in order for these stories to happen... I'm saying with a canon, the writers can tell really good stories, stories we relate to because they reference the world in ways that react with us because we've dealt with these characters and issues in the past. With no canon, we're stuck with never seeing thee characters or choices again... except coded entries, flimsy cameos and silly side quests where the most minuscule of consequences are given a head nod to.

A good story was never told by making story continuity 'as vague as possible.'

#239
draken-heart

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Fast Jimmy wrote...

The vaguer the...


Do you all hear yourselves?

Yes, setting a canon would tread on the toes of those who did not make a certain decision. I'm sorry, but it you chose to spare or kill Loghain and the canon goes against that, then that's the way things will have happened. But, with the import flags, he's dead anyway, for all intents and purposes. Because Bioware can't invest enough resources to make sure that previous choice is brought back in any sort of significant way.

The Anvil is a good example of this. If you save it, the Dearven kingdom creates armies of golems, armies which give them the power to actually begin retaking the Deep Roads and pushing the Darkspawn back.

Think about that - pushing the Darkspawn back. We're talking about a reclaimed and expanded Dwarven empire. That's a world changer. We're talking about the Darkspawn's numbers possibly diminished before a Blight even starts. That's a world changer. We're talking the possibility mentioned in the epilogue slides that the Dwarves will begin abducting surfaces to sacrifice to create golems. THAT'S A WORLD CHANGER.

But... it's not. Because the choice itself can't be given any worthwhile recognition. So a canon of sorts will be set, essentially to the choice that will have the least impact to the main story. The canon of destroying the Anvil IS set... mostly because they need to do everything possible to ignore the choice in future games now.

The Urn of Sacred Ashes is another good one. A holy relic of unparalleled significance is found and could possibly become a new Mecca. The Chantry would now have a claim to the validity to their religion (and, hence, ALL of its tenets like, say, Magic Should Serve Man, Not Rule Him). They would be able to have the number of converts shoot through the roof and their influence would increase - not to mention they would have access to a substance that could heal any wound/sickness/affliction in case of true emegency.

Given that we are on the eve of a war based on Chantry principles, how does having the most powerful and significant religious artifact to said religion NOT play into the story? But it won't... a default canon will be set anyway, saying the Urn doesn't matter, because that is the result of ignoring/diminishing the choice. The canon is that the Urn was defiled (except that Leliana is alive, so maybe not defiled, but Brother Genitivi is murder knifed by the Warden and the Urn moved by an unknown group).

The above two examples show that mostly ignoring a choice pretty much sets a canon choice, regardless. Did you think at the end of DA2 when you'd sided with the Mages/Templars, that would affect things in DA3? Well, likely it won't. It's going to default to a canon Templat playthrough (since ignoring the choice means that most of the Circle was butchered, not saved, making it like the Circle was Annulled). So congratulations, the inability to ever acknowledge imports in real ways has led to every Mage supporter having the exact same impact on the world as a Hawke that wanted to purge every Mage from Kirkwall.

A set canon isn't perfect, but it at least let's the writers use old characters and concepts again. You may not have killed Loghain, but if he'a dead in the canon, you may see Anora not on the throne, but plotting with one side of the Mage/Templar War to lend her support, adding a really good subplot to the upcoming war. You may not have sided with the werewolves or killed Merril's clan, but it would be an interesting facet of the story if the Dalish were siding against the Mages, due to many of their clans recently being murdered by the fallout from their Apostate Keepers. You may not have given the idol fragment to Varric in DA2, but seeing Varric in DA3, driven mad be it, making him a pale shadows of his former self, would be a scene that really pulls on our heart strings.

I'm not saying to make choices canon in order for these stories to happen... I'm saying with a canon, the writers can tell really good stories, stories we relate to because they reference the world in ways that react with us because we've dealt with these characters and issues in the past. With no canon, we're stuck with never seeing thee characters or choices again... except coded entries, flimsy cameos and silly side quests where the most minuscule of consequences are given a head nod to.

A good story was never told by making story continuity 'as vague as possible.'


What if it makes it so you can focus on making a great story for the current game, less distraction means better current.

Modifié par draken-heart, 25 octobre 2012 - 11:26 .


#240
Fast Jimmy

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^

For what it's worth, I wouldn't be against a mechanic where, at the beginning of DA3, a few choices were picked that affected the game. Where may three to six choices were set and the game reacted to those, but everything else (romances, small choices, who was killed) was ignored.

Then you could kill any character you want to, you wouldn't have to worry about romances, you wouldn't have to worry about small details, and give real effort to showing the big decisions having a big impact.

#241
draken-heart

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Fast Jimmy wrote...

^

For what it's worth, I wouldn't be against a mechanic where, at the beginning of DA3, a few choices were picked that affected the game. Where may three to six choices were set and the game reacted to those, but everything else (romances, small choices, who was killed) was ignored.

Then you could kill any character you want to, you wouldn't have to worry about romances, you wouldn't have to worry about small details, and give real effort to showing the big decisions having a big impact.


Either warden and hawke had a romance or no deal.

#242
Fast Jimmy

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Never mentioning the event, as I outlined above, sets a canon. It's the canon of making the choice with the least impact.

Defiling the Urn is the choice with the least impact. An artifact the world didn't think existed is destroyed - the world goes on. On the other hand, an artifact that supports the claims and history of the Chantry and could sway thousands to their side - that can't be swept unde the rug, especially with the Mage/Templar war approaching.

Not mentioning it would set the canon of destroying the Urn. So no, ignoring it won't work. Nt in any logical context.

#243
Fast Jimmy

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draken-heart wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

^

For what it's worth, I wouldn't be against a mechanic where, at the beginning of DA3, a few choices were picked that affected the game. Where may three to six choices were set and the game reacted to those, but everything else (romances, small choices, who was killed) was ignored.

Then you could kill any character you want to, you wouldn't have to worry about romances, you wouldn't have to worry about small details, and give real effort to showing the big decisions having a big impact.


Either warden and hawke had a romance or no deal.


Why? In a game where we aren't playing Hawke or the Warden, where we have a new character and won't be dealing with old companions... why in the WORLD would who Hawke shacked up with matter more than who is ruling a country, or if an army of unstoppable iron soldiers exists or not, or if a Sominari, the most powerful type of Mage in the worlds is alive or not?

Romances bring nothing to the story of the world. And the DA games are about the story of Thedas, not about any one character. 

#244
sarcastictruths

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Fast Jimmy wrote...

The vaguer the...


Do you all hear yourselves?

Yes, setting a canon would tread on the toes of those who did not make a certain decision. I'm sorry, but it you chose to spare or kill Loghain and the canon goes against that, then that's the way things will have happened. But, with the import flags, he's dead anyway, for all intents and purposes. Because Bioware can't invest enough resources to make sure that previous choice is brought back in any sort of significant way.

The Anvil is a good example of this. If you save it, the Dearven kingdom creates armies of golems, armies which give them the power to actually begin retaking the Deep Roads and pushing the Darkspawn back.

Think about that - pushing the Darkspawn back. We're talking about a reclaimed and expanded Dwarven empire. That's a world changer. We're talking about the Darkspawn's numbers possibly diminished before a Blight even starts. That's a world changer. We're talking the possibility mentioned in the epilogue slides that the Dwarves will begin abducting surfaces to sacrifice to create golems. THAT'S A WORLD CHANGER.

But... it's not. Because the choice itself can't be given any worthwhile recognition. So a canon of sorts will be set, essentially to the choice that will have the least impact to the main story. The canon of destroying the Anvil IS set... mostly because they need to do everything possible to ignore the choice in future games now.

The Urn of Sacred Ashes is another good one. A holy relic of unparalleled significance is found and could possibly become a new Mecca. The Chantry would now have a claim to the validity to their religion (and, hence, ALL of its tenets like, say, Magic Should Serve Man, Not Rule Him). They would be able to have the number of converts shoot through the roof and their influence would increase - not to mention they would have access to a substance that could heal any wound/sickness/affliction in case of true emegency.

Given that we are on the eve of a war based on Chantry principles, how does having the most powerful and significant religious artifact to said religion NOT play into the story? But it won't... a default canon will be set anyway, saying the Urn doesn't matter, because that is the result of ignoring/diminishing the choice. The canon is that the Urn was defiled (except that Leliana is alive, so maybe not defiled, but Brother Genitivi is murder knifed by the Warden and the Urn moved by an unknown group).

The above two examples show that mostly ignoring a choice pretty much sets a canon choice, regardless. Did you think at the end of DA2 when you'd sided with the Mages/Templars, that would affect things in DA3? Well, likely it won't. It's going to default to a canon Templat playthrough (since ignoring the choice means that most of the Circle was butchered, not saved, making it like the Circle was Annulled). So congratulations, the inability to ever acknowledge imports in real ways has led to every Mage supporter having the exact same impact on the world as a Hawke that wanted to purge every Mage from Kirkwall.

A set canon isn't perfect, but it at least let's the writers use old characters and concepts again. You may not have killed Loghain, but if he'a dead in the canon, you may see Anora not on the throne, but plotting with one side of the Mage/Templar War to lend her support, adding a really good subplot to the upcoming war. You may not have sided with the werewolves or killed Merril's clan, but it would be an interesting facet of the story if the Dalish were siding against the Mages, due to many of their clans recently being murdered by the fallout from their Apostate Keepers. You may not have given the idol fragment to Varric in DA2, but seeing Varric in DA3, driven mad be it, making him a pale shadows of his former self, would be a scene that really pulls on our heart strings.

I'm not saying to make choices canon in order for these stories to happen... I'm saying with a canon, the writers can tell really good stories, stories we relate to because they reference the world in ways that react with us because we've dealt with these characters and issues in the past. With no canon, we're stuck with never seeing thee characters or choices again... except coded entries, flimsy cameos and silly side quests where the most minuscule of consequences are given a head nod to.

A good story was never told by making story continuity 'as vague as possible.'


The entire issue with the save import is the idea that your choices does not have a profound impact on the next installment of a game in a series. It is, also, believed by some that the level of a storyline would increase if the save import was excluded. This could or couldn't be true. I won't make that assumaption.

However, if the save import are suddenly excluded in the next installement of the  game. It's going to make a lot of people upset. Myself included. I won't get to the point where I'll swore my undying hatred on bioware. However, to me the save import is a feature I enjoy greatly.

Sure there can be a lot of work with implimenting these save imports. I won't deny that. However, I won't jump on the bandwagon of getting rid of the save imports. I wasn't actually serious about the vaguer the better.

Modifié par sarcastictruths, 25 octobre 2012 - 11:35 .


#245
Fast Jimmy

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What if things CAN'T be done better? Or, more accurately, what if Bioware has already stated they won't create tons of custom content? Because they have.

The Mass Effect team had stated that for the third game, they would do everything humanly possible to make you choice recognized and play into the story. They bet themselves over backwards togice us small, silly notices (like with Conrad Verner if we collected all the Asari writings in ME1) but then completely ignored BIG choices, like the Rachni Queen, the genophage, the Geth Rewrite, etc.

The DA team has had both Awakenings and DA2 to show how they handle imports as well. They have been shallow, at best. And it's not from a lack of effort - its from the enormous effort custom content based off a prior-game choice requires. In addition, custom, branching content they make for a PRIOR game choice will eat into the budget of branching content for CURRENT game choices. Which looks like (from what we saw in DA2, ME2 and ME3), means less in-game choice and more choices that don't affect anything and bring you right back to where you would be anyway.

If they spend lots of time making import choices matter, it hurts the content/choices for the current game. If they ignore the choices completely, they diminish them to the point of not ven mattering. Only choosing a canon, where no extra custom content is generated, but prior game stories can be touched on in meaningful ways, offers the most story opportunities at the least cost to future content and choice.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 25 octobre 2012 - 11:56 .


#246
mat21

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I agree that importing saves from previous games seems to be more of a hinderance than a help. It restricts what choices the devs can give you in any given game and barely adds any interesting content at all.

I would be much happier if after every game the devs just picked one set of choices which was canon and they could build on in a meaningful way rather than have to somehow barely reference previous games or make it so previous games turn out the same no matter what the player does. i.e. DA2

On a similar note I'm not really a fan of previous characters i.e. the warden or Hawke making any appearance at all. As the new games should be about my new character not an endless back reference to what my old characters did/are doing.

#247
milena87

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Fast Jimmy wrote...

What if things CAN'T be done better? Or, more accurately, what if Bioware has already stated they won't create tons of custom content? Because they have.

The Mass Effect team had stated that for the third game, they would do everything humanly possible to make you choice recognized and play into the story. They bet themselves over backwards togice us small, silly notices (like with Conrad Verner if we collected all the Asari writings in ME1) but then completely ignored BIG choices, like the Rachni Queen, the genophage, the Geth Rewrite, etc.

The DA team has had both Awakenings and DA2 to show how they handle imports as well. They have been shallow, at best. And it's not from a lack of effort - its from the enormous effort custom content based off a prior-game choice requires. In addition, custom, branching content they make for a PRIOR game choice will eat into the budget of branching content for CURRENT game choices. Which looks like (from what we saw in DA2, ME2 and ME3), means less in-game choice and more choices that don't affect anything and bring you right back to where you would be anyway.

If they spend lots of time making import choices matter, it hurts the content/choices for the current game. If they ignore the choices completely, they diminish them to the point of not ven mattering. Only choosing a canon, where no extra custom content is generated, but prior game stories can be touched on in meaningful ways, offers the most story opportunities at the least cost to future content and choice.


Exactly. All I really want is for the DA team to make the best game they can do.

Ditching the save import and moving the world forward seem like a good start :)

#248
MillKill

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mat21 wrote...

On a similar note I'm not really a fan of previous characters i.e. the warden or Hawke making any appearance at all. As the new games should be about my new character not an endless back reference to what my old characters did/are doing.


I actually agree on this. Even if a set canon is made, bringing back the Warden and/or Hawke would be pointless. People care about their Warden and their Hawke. They won't get any enjoyment from seeing a canon Warden or Hawke that is nothing like thier own. Just say, "They both lived happily ever after" and never bother showing them onscreen. Bioware will please nobody by having them show up again and will ****** off a lot of people and waste resources on a meaningless fanservice cameo.

Modifié par MillKill, 25 octobre 2012 - 06:49 .


#249
draken-heart

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Fast Jimmy wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

^

For what it's worth, I wouldn't be against a mechanic where, at the beginning of DA3, a few choices were picked that affected the game. Where may three to six choices were set and the game reacted to those, but everything else (romances, small choices, who was killed) was ignored.

Then you could kill any character you want to, you wouldn't have to worry about romances, you wouldn't have to worry about small details, and give real effort to showing the big decisions having a big impact.


Either warden and hawke had a romance or no deal.


Why? In a game where we aren't playing Hawke or the Warden, where we have a new character and won't be dealing with old companions... why in the WORLD would who Hawke shacked up with matter more than who is ruling a country, or if an army of unstoppable iron soldiers exists or not, or if a Sominari, the most powerful type of Mage in the worlds is alive or not?

Romances bring nothing to the story of the world. And the DA games are about the story of Thedas, not about any one character. 


It was better than Save imports though, wasn't it? No canon whatsoever, import or not?

Did They even Say they were going with a set canon? IF so, where?  and do not say it's because they sid they were looking into the issue. Face it, you guys just want thing to be done for you. DA 2 was a not-so-great game not because they included Save imports, but because they go rushed on it.

Modifié par draken-heart, 25 octobre 2012 - 06:54 .


#250
MillKill

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draken-heart wrote...

It was better than Save imports though, wasn't it? No canon whatsoever, import or not?


No. It's true that being vague and having neither imports nor a set canon saves resources that would be wasted on irrelevant reactions to choices. So it's better than imports. But it still has the problem of rendering previous plotlines
pointless and handicapping the writers.

Not every choice needs to be made canon, though. Some you can ignore entirely. I don't think anybody is clamoring for a return of Bella the barmaid.

Modifié par MillKill, 25 octobre 2012 - 06:57 .