637 réponses à ce sujet

[Genshie]

wright1978 wrote...

Genshie wrote...

Well it ain't goin happen in DA3 at least so I am sorry since its been said several times over that import is going to happen one way or another. I am fine with them making things a cannon after DA3.

I'm very thankful for this as i for one have no desire to see my universe expunged to make way for someone else's canon.

What they are doing now is trying to find a way to improve upon importing or a new way way completely. But the choice importing will still be there. My concern is mainly if the Warden is to be an NPC how they are going to do him/her since there is a total of six varations (that doesn't include the various backgrounds such as dalish elf or mage elf). Hawke is a pretty easy one to do since all they have to worry about is importing of the face and which side he/she supported. (I guess you have to add in what class as well.)

[Fast Jimmy]

Well it ain't goin happen in DA3 at least so I am sorry since its been said several times over that import is going to happen one way or another. I am fine with them making things a cannon after DA3.

I don't know, you may be surprised. I doubt they will set a canon, but the revs have said they are looking at alternative ways to handle choices outside of the flags. If it involves some form of interactive portion at the beginning of the game that lets us pick three or four outcomes and ignore/set canon for the rest, I'd be at least halfway convinced that there would be a way to address the concern of too much choice to address.

Honestly, if they just took a HANDFUL of choices, they could make deeper and more impact up references. If they threw out the door all the dead weight, like what companions you killed or romanced, then things become manageable. Personal decisions should go. World changing decisions (which a totally new character could conceivably see play out in a different land and time) are the only ones which should be taken into consideration.

[wright1978]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Well it ain't goin happen in DA3 at least so I am sorry since its been said several times over that import is going to happen one way or another. I am fine with them making things a cannon after DA3.

I don't know, you may be surprised. I doubt they will set a canon, but the revs have said they are looking at alternative ways to handle choices outside of the flags. If it involves some form of interactive portion at the beginning of the game that lets us pick three or four outcomes and ignore/set canon for the rest, I'd be at least halfway convinced that there would be a way to address the concern of too much choice to address.

Honestly, if they just took a HANDFUL of choices, they could make deeper and more impact up references. If they threw out the door all the dead weight, like what companions you killed or romanced, then things become manageable. Personal decisions should go. World changing decisions (which a totally new character could conceivably see play out in a different land and time) are the only ones which should be taken into consideration.

If personal decisions go then so to would all former romanceable companions as well as the two former protaganists who were flung back into the story at the end of DA2. Given i assume they'll want to use some of these characters, personal decisions should stay. 

[Fast Jimmy]

Emzamination wrote...

I don't believe that these anti-import people's arguments are entirely altruistic. I suspect it may have something to do with a lack of expansions or Dl.c, since upon thread review, most of those championing this campaign are lacking either registration badges or completed characters.

Yes, Realmzmaster and I haven't been playing Bioware games and been a part of the Bioware forums since before it was the BSN or anything. Yeah, we're clearly new here just to be subversive. 

[Fast Jimmy]

If personal decisions go then so to would all former romanceable companions as well as the two former protaganists who were flung back into the story at the end of DA2. Given i assume they'll want to use some of these characters, personal decisions should stay. 

They can have former companions and just not have them have romanced Hawke or the Warden... or have them have a canon romance.

Either way, why should it matter to your Inquisitor? I often do not find myself talking to brand new strangers about people I had sex with ten years ago. Maybe I'm weird like that.

[draken-heart]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

All I see ont he ME3 boards are complaints about the ending.

I would assume from your avatar that you've played ME3. I hope that you've played the previous games. In those games, there are dozens of choices which are advertised in game as being huge, that will affect the galaxy in large, meaningful ways. In ME3, if they couldn't take far of these choices in a DA2, shortcut way (side quest/codex entry/cameo), then they made them worthless. Did you expect things with the Krogan to work out differently if you destroyed the cure for the Genophage? Nope, it's still just as complete regardless. Did you expect Cerebrus to have a more advanced understanding of the Reapers if you saved the Collector Base? Nope, they are at the exact same point of brainwashed madness regardless. Did you want to add the Geth Heretics to the rest of the Collective by, against perhaps your normal judgment, to rewrite their brains? Not only do those Geth revert back to siding with the Reapers, but ALL of the Geth do likewise.

These are terrible ways to handle choice. They essentially make every Paragon choice canon by the way they ignore the chance that the Renegade option even happened. I don't know how people don't expect the same thing to happen with the DA franchise.

Yes, but I have been on the boards too, most complaints are about the ending. I enjoyed ME when I played it and will get it for PS3, ME2 and ME3, and my enjoyment does not stem from me having my choices in the game, but from the merits of the game itself. I also loved DA2 for the story that is what the game was about, not the save import feature.

The idea behind the vague canon is establishing canon through inference, vague descriptions of what happened, not middle-roading anything.

[wright1978]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

If personal decisions go then so to would all former romanceable companions as well as the two former protaganists who were flung back into the story at the end of DA2. Given i assume they'll want to use some of these characters, personal decisions should stay. 

They can have former companions and just not have them have romanced Hawke or the Warden... or have them have a canon romance.

Either way, why should it matter to your Inquisitor? I often do not find myself talking to brand new strangers about people I had sex with ten years ago. Maybe I'm weird like that.

Then why bother importing at all if you are going run roughshod over the player's canon universe. Personal decisions are just as important as big choices. It does matter if Hawke/Warden have disappeared and the character they loved acts completely nonchalant about said fact. Having former LI appear isn't necessary but they seem to have nailed themselves to the mast in that regard and therefore imo dialogue whould reflect personal decisions where those characters appear and it is warranted.

[Genshie]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

If personal decisions go then so to would all former romanceable companions as well as the two former protaganists who were flung back into the story at the end of DA2. Given i assume they'll want to use some of these characters, personal decisions should stay. 

They can have former companions and just not have them have romanced Hawke or the Warden... or have them have a canon romance.

Either way, why should it matter to your Inquisitor? I often do not find myself talking to brand new strangers about people I had sex with ten years ago. Maybe I'm weird like that.

I am completely fine with not have to see companions from DA2. If they do pop up I would hope that they would be showing up for a purpose. People shun Zev. appearance in DA2 but they forget that if you did help him he would randomly pop in during the final boss fight to help you. Some of the cameos I felt like you couldn't avoid them from happening anyway such as Alistair if he is King or still a Grey Warden. Despite alot of the complaints or issues people bring up with the cameos there wasn't alot at all. Not even half the companions appear from Origins in DA2. In the end I just feel like most people are just pissed about Leliana still being alive if they killed her (I didn't, my Warden romanced her. So I was actually glad to see she was playing some role) but clearly Bioware has a reason for this as they said already.

Modifié par Genshie, 25 octobre 2012 - 10:05 .

[Fast Jimmy]

Yes, but I have been on the boards too, most complaints are about the ending. I enjoyed ME when I played it and will get it for PS3, ME2 and ME3, and my enjoyment does not stem from me having my choices in the game, but from the merits of the game itself. I also loved DA2 for the story that is what the game was about, not the save import feature.

The idea behind the vague canon is establishing canon through inference, vague descriptions of what happened, not middle-roading anything.

People complain about the endings because they are terrible.

And the second-most-off complained thing is how there is a complete railroad of the plot regardless of prior choices.

And if you don't care about choices I these games or how they are reflected, but only by the qualit of the story the game tells... why are you arguing for imported choices?

I'd need to see more examples of your 'vague canon' to understand it completely.

[Todd23]

People who want them to scrap the save imports?


Maybe if I just close my eyes they will simply disapear.

Modifié par Todd23, 25 octobre 2012 - 10:05 .

[Fast Jimmy]

Then why bother importing at all if you are going run roughshod over the player's canon universe. Personal decisions are just as important as big choices. It does matter if Hawke/Warden have disappeared and the character they loved acts completely nonchalant about said fact. Having former LI appear isn't necessary but they seem to have nailed themselves to the mast in that regard and therefore imo dialogue whould reflect personal decisions where those characters appear and it is warranted.

Fine. Set a full canon. That's cool with me.

[draken-heart]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Yes, but I have been on the boards too, most complaints are about the ending. I enjoyed ME when I played it and will get it for PS3, ME2 and ME3, and my enjoyment does not stem from me having my choices in the game, but from the merits of the game itself. I also loved DA2 for the story that is what the game was about, not the save import feature.

The idea behind the vague canon is establishing canon through inference, vague descriptions of what happened, not middle-roading anything.

People complain about the endings because they are terrible.

And the second-most-off complained thing is how there is a complete railroad of the plot regardless of prior choices.

And if you don't care about choices I these games or how they are reflected, but only by the qualit of the story the game tells... why are you arguing for imported choices?

I'd need to see more examples of your 'vague canon' to understand it completely.

IF you read any of my posts, you would realize that all I want to to have my world consistent witht the choices my past characters made, and that it would be okay with me to have like a KotoR 2 way of importing, which is indirectly.

Let's look at the Anvil, since you brought that up a few times. saying "The dwarves tried to recreate Cairidin's work but failed" establishes that the warden destroyed the anvil (See the Epilogue for the Anvil) but doesn't do so directly, you have to infer from past knowledge.

[wright1978]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Then why bother importing at all if you are going run roughshod over the player's canon universe. Personal decisions are just as important as big choices. It does matter if Hawke/Warden have disappeared and the character they loved acts completely nonchalant about said fact. Having former LI appear isn't necessary but they seem to have nailed themselves to the mast in that regard and therefore imo dialogue whould reflect personal decisions where those characters appear and it is warranted.

Fine. Set a full canon. That's cool with me.

That's not cool with me. I'm happy to carry on with the current import flavouring concept.

[Genshie]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Then why bother importing at all if you are going run roughshod over the player's canon universe. Personal decisions are just as important as big choices. It does matter if Hawke/Warden have disappeared and the character they loved acts completely nonchalant about said fact. Having former LI appear isn't necessary but they seem to have nailed themselves to the mast in that regard and therefore imo dialogue whould reflect personal decisions where those characters appear and it is warranted.

Fine. Set a full canon. That's cool with me.

Dude, I agree completely about having a stronger story with a cannon and I am all up for it. Just not now myself but after DA3 its all good to me anyway. Just like with their new ME game coming out I can careless if they have choices or a set cannon. (Mainly because there is no central main character(s) from previous titles in it. And if there are characters that we know of from the trilogy then it won't matter if the game is a prequel since the story has to be a set in stone cannon for a prequel to work properly. I really won't care if its a spin-off.)

[The Hierophant]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Fine. Set a full canon. That's cool with me.

Tbh i wouldn't mind if DG, and co made a canonicity system like what Leland Chee, and George Lucas created.

[Wozearly]

draken-heart wrote...

IF you read any of my posts, you would realize that all I want to to have my world consistent witht the choices my past characters made, and that it would be okay with me to have like a KotoR 2 way of importing, which is indirectly.

KotoR handled past decisions fairly effectively with the Atton conversation, without having an import feature. The absolutely critical factors (gender of PC, LS / DS ending) were picked up and the rest left unknown. Since the world had changed somewhat in the interim and not every planet from the first was used in the second, there was no clash with past decisions.

It worked because there was no attempt to bring back characters who might be dead at the end of the first game. They simply didn't make an appearance in the second game, and the two that made the transition to be party members in the sequel were very sensible choices to do this with.

That's obviously a royal pain for the DA series because DA:O allowed you to wipe out almost all of your companions at some point or another. Whilst I think its incredibly disappointing that no workaround was introduced to ensure consistency with the player's choices (even Awakening let you import an Orlesian warden from a main game save should your PC be...ehm...permanently indisposed), I do have an element of sympathy for Gaider and the team.

Only an element, mind. I'm very much with you that consistency of effect for player choices and, indeed, past canon should only ever be overridden if there is an imperative need to do so for the narrative. So ensuring Anders was around is understandable, although I would have preferred some kind of reference was made to those of us who distinctly remember him assuming room temperature during the Awakening epilogue...or, indeed, within minutes of the royal personage arriving. 

I did not see the critical need for Leliana to have a cameo.

[Malanek]

I agree with the OP. Although in theory having choices you make carry over and influence the world in future games sounded great, I worry that trying to do so results in a weaker story. So many variables have to be accounted for and it becomes easier to simply do refer to the story at all. Or even worse various events were just ignored completely ie whether Liliana/Zeveran were alive. There was nothing in DA2 story that was really influenced by events in DA1 other than very superficially.

[draken-heart]

Malanek999 wrote...

I agree with the OP. Although in theory having choices you make carry over and influence the world in future games sounded great, I worry that trying to do so results in a weaker story. So many variables have to be accounted for and it becomes easier to simply do refer to the story at all. Or even worse various events were just ignored completely ie whether Liliana/Zeveran were alive. There was nothing in DA2 story that was really influenced by events in DA1 other than very superficially.

Do you guys honestly expect them to make every choice have an impact, when the game is not even about that?

DA2 was not about Ferelden, and the ruler of Ferelden had little impact because of that fact, Zevran was a bug that they admitted to , but decided not to patch. Leliana was retconned pure and simple.

Bioware will do what it wants when it wants, these threads are pointless.

[Rikku Moon]

I don't see why you guys are complaining. Bioware shouldn't get rid save game import. THAT is the BEST part of the game is to import past DA games into your game so the characters in the new game can have some background history of Thedas' past that was helped shaped using the imports, instead.of completely starting over with a blank slate. Like if DA3 directly follows after the events of DA2, I wanna hear mention of what I PERSONALLY did in DA2, like when we recruit Merril in DA2 and she mentions the long lost Dalish Elf hero of Ferelden (if you import a saved game where you played the Dalish Elf) who the clan hasn't seen in YEARS since after the hero left with the shemlen known as Duncan of the Wardens. Even in DA2, if the DAO game import is the Dalish elf origin, and you had asked King Alistair to give the Dalish lands as a reward, Alistair brings it up in the meeting with Hawke, and if Merril is on the team when you meet up with Alistair and ask questions that lead up to Alistair mentioning that things have recently gone wrong in the Dalish new lands and he's trying to fix it. *lol* I want to see if the save game import brings that up again in Da3 IF we go back to Ferelden in the next game.

If you guys don't want to use the save game import then don't use it, and PLEASE don't give Bioware BAD ideas about taking it out of the game in DA3, and ruin things for everyone who likes the import program.

[Genshie]

Malanek999 wrote...

I agree with the OP. Although in theory having choices you make carry over and influence the world in future games sounded great, I worry that trying to do so results in a weaker story. So many variables have to be accounted for and it becomes easier to simply do refer to the story at all. Or even worse various events were just ignored completely ie whether Liliana/Zeveran were alive. There was nothing in DA2 story that was really influenced by events in DA1 other than very superficially.

Edit: Nevermind a previous poster already stated exaclty what I said.

Modifié par Genshie, 25 octobre 2012 - 11:17 .

[Malanek]

draken-heart wrote...

Malanek999 wrote...

I agree with the OP. Although in theory having choices you make carry over and influence the world in future games sounded great, I worry that trying to do so results in a weaker story. So many variables have to be accounted for and it becomes easier to simply do refer to the story at all. Or even worse various events were just ignored completely ie whether Liliana/Zeveran were alive. There was nothing in DA2 story that was really influenced by events in DA1 other than very superficially.

Do you guys honestly expect them to make every choice have an impact, when the game is not even about that?

DA2 was not about Ferelden, and the ruler of Ferelden had little impact because of that fact, Zevran was a bug that they admitted to , but decided not to patch. Leliana was retconned pure and simple.

Bioware will do what it wants when it wants, these threads are pointless.

No, I didn't expect every choice that was made in DAO to have an impact and I never claimed that. However I did expect a few to do so in ways which were not completely superficial. And I also had the strong expectation for them not to completely go against events that had happened ie Liliana is alive when she should be dead.

But now there have been so many things that have happened I believe trying to cater for them will reduce their ability to tell a story. As an example, the god child will not ever play a significant role in the story becaue it may or may not exist and that is too different for them to handle. There are dozens of other similar issues. It would be better for Bioware to write the story they want to and set it in "a possible future" of the Thedas you were in last game. I strongly believe the story will end up more compelling and less frustrating for the player. 

[draken-heart]

Malanek999 wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

Malanek999 wrote...

I agree with the OP. Although in theory having choices you make carry over and influence the world in future games sounded great, I worry that trying to do so results in a weaker story. So many variables have to be accounted for and it becomes easier to simply do refer to the story at all. Or even worse various events were just ignored completely ie whether Liliana/Zeveran were alive. There was nothing in DA2 story that was really influenced by events in DA1 other than very superficially.

Do you guys honestly expect them to make every choice have an impact, when the game is not even about that?

DA2 was not about Ferelden, and the ruler of Ferelden had little impact because of that fact, Zevran was a bug that they admitted to , but decided not to patch. Leliana was retconned pure and simple.

Bioware will do what it wants when it wants, these threads are pointless.

No, I didn't expect every choice that was made in DAO to have an impact and I never claimed that. However I did expect a few to do so in ways which were not completely superficial. And I also had the strong expectation for them not to completely go against events that had happened ie Liliana is alive when she should be dead.

But now there have been so many things that have happened I believe trying to cater for them will reduce their ability to tell a story. As an example, the god child will not ever play a significant role in the story becaue it may or may not exist and that is too different for them to handle. There are dozens of other similar issues. It would be better for Bioware to write the story they want to and set it in "a possible future" of the Thedas you were in last game. I strongly believe the story will end up more compelling and less frustrating for the player. 

What about the quiet majority (the ones who are fans of Biowar, but do not post on these threads)? Don't they have a say in what bioware does? just because you and a few others belive this does not mean that those who do not post on these forums agree.

Bioware has more fans than the ones on these forums to think about.

Modifié par draken-heart, 26 octobre 2012 - 12:26 .

[DreamwareStudio]

draken-heart wrote...


What about the quiet majority (the ones who are fans of Biowar, but do not post on these threads)? Don't they have a say in what bioware does? just because you and a few others belive this does not mean that those who do not post on these forums agree.

I, for one, don't buy the quiet majority argument and how what they want is vastly different than what we see here. IMO, the microcosm that is these forums can be extrapolated to what goes on outside in regards to DA. The sales of DA 2 and DA:O reflect that argument as do posts on other social media.

Anyway, even if I'm wrong and there is a quiet majority with different opinions than those that run the gamut here...if they are/remain quiet, how can they have a say? No one knows what it is they want because they're saying nothing.

Modifié par google_calasade, 26 octobre 2012 - 12:32 .

[Fast Jimmy]

Do you guys honestly expect them to make every choice have an impact, when the game is not even about that?

DA2 was not about Ferelden, and the ruler of Ferelden had little impact because of that fact, Zevran was a bug that they admitted to , but decided not to patch. Leliana was retconned pure and simple.

Bioware will do what it wants when it wants, these threads are pointless.

I'm not saying anything in these threads that I haven't said to devs, both in posts and personal messages. I'm not trying to convince Bioware of anything. The problem is, they realize better than any of us how much work and trouble the imports are, and how it can tie their hands from telling the bet story and offering the most choice. But they won't stop doing it because fans are emotionally tied to the feature, even if it never gives any real closure or follow-up to any but the smallest of choices.

So I post in these threads not to change the minds of Bioware... but to change the minds of fans. If there comes the day when a thread like this starts and everyone replies 'meh. I'm indifferent about imports these days. Take 'em out if you want" then my work will be done. Bioware could still leave them in at that point, if they wanted to, but it would be because they thought it would make a better game and tell a better story, not because they are afraid of the fan backlash and outcry here on the BSN.

[draken-heart]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Do you guys honestly expect them to make every choice have an impact, when the game is not even about that?

DA2 was not about Ferelden, and the ruler of Ferelden had little impact because of that fact, Zevran was a bug that they admitted to , but decided not to patch. Leliana was retconned pure and simple.

Bioware will do what it wants when it wants, these threads are pointless.

I'm not saying anything in these threads that I haven't said to devs, both in posts and personal messages. I'm not trying to convince Bioware of anything. The problem is, they realize better than any of us how much work and trouble the imports are, and how it can tie their hands from telling the bet story and offering the most choice. But they won't stop doing it because fans are emotionally tied to the feature, even if it never gives any real closure or follow-up to any but the smallest of choices.

So I post in these threads not to change the minds of Bioware... but to change the minds of fans. If there comes the day when a thread like this starts and everyone replies 'meh. I'm indifferent about imports these days. Take 'em out if you want" then my work will be done. Bioware could still leave them in at that point, if they wanted to, but it would be because they thought it would make a better game and tell a better story, not because they are afraid of the fan backlash and outcry here on the BSN.

As I said, no matter how much you guys complain, Bioware won't care, Imports will likely stay if they cannot find a way to have our choices in the game wiithout them.

sounds like you are trying to change their minds because they made a decision you don't like. Remember Bioware may have decided to do imports the way the did because they wnted to.

Modifié par draken-heart, 26 octobre 2012 - 12:36 .