637 réponses à ce sujet

[TheRealJayDee]

LinksOcarina wrote...

Of course, that means we have to think fourth dimensionally, and realize choices made in game one should affect game four somehow. As long as BioWare is doing that I see no problem here. 

But the problem with this is, as many people said, that based on our experiences and Bioware's own statements that is something that is just not going to happen with any of the bigger decisions. Smaller things, yeah, but any world changing decision can by default not be of real relevance in later games.

[marshalleck]

draken-heart wrote...

wsandista wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

wsandista wrote...

Please just drop the import. I would rather play an amazing individual game that can end in a variety of different ways and responds to all choices than one that limits choice just to have a reference to a choice made by a PC in a previous game.

I said it once, I will say it again, this thread sounds like it is trying to convince Bioware to remve a feature they deemed necessary to the franchise. Let them think and decide for themselves. And dont try to make people see your way and then blow off their beliefs with the phrase "It constrics the writers to account for every choice and the game could be better without it." Sure it could, but ME3 and DA were in my mind Great games, not because of the import, though it was a good touch, but because I enjoyed the story the games had (ME3 had the Reaper war, and DA2 was Hawke's rise to power in Kirkwall).

ME3 didn't need choices from previous games, because all they really amounted to is 1) Which VS is alive and who is alive from ME2 and 2)several Cameos and variations of (whatever they called the resources)

DA2 handwaived away several choices as well, not to mention some of the boons.

If Bioware can't do imports well, then they shouldn't do them. Having a small reference to a choice made in a previous game is not as important as giving the player plenty of choices with consequence.

I will use NV, Did it's choices have any impact on the game itself? not really. If choices do not matter till endgame, then why have choices anywhere but endgame?

Why not use two modern examples of games with good implementation of choice/consequence? Alpha Protocol and Witcher 2. 

[wsandista]

draken-heart wrote...

wsandista wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

wsandista wrote...

Please just drop the import. I would rather play an amazing individual game that can end in a variety of different ways and responds to all choices than one that limits choice just to have a reference to a choice made by a PC in a previous game.

I said it once, I will say it again, this thread sounds like it is trying to convince Bioware to remve a feature they deemed necessary to the franchise. Let them think and decide for themselves. And dont try to make people see your way and then blow off their beliefs with the phrase "It constrics the writers to account for every choice and the game could be better without it." Sure it could, but ME3 and DA were in my mind Great games, not because of the import, though it was a good touch, but because I enjoyed the story the games had (ME3 had the Reaper war, and DA2 was Hawke's rise to power in Kirkwall).

ME3 didn't need choices from previous games, because all they really amounted to is 1) Which VS is alive and who is alive from ME2 and 2)several Cameos and variations of (whatever they called the resources)

DA2 handwaived away several choices as well, not to mention some of the boons.

If Bioware can't do imports well, then they shouldn't do them. Having a small reference to a choice made in a previous game is not as important as giving the player plenty of choices with consequence.

I will use NV, Did it's choices have any impact on the game itself? not really. If choices do not matter till endgame, then why have choices anywhere but endgame?

That is an apples to oranges comparison. NV is a completely different type of game than either DA.

Compare DAO to DA2.

DAO had plenty of choices throughout the game, many which had different results. DA2 had little choices(most of the time Hawke just stood around) and the choices it did allow always ended up in the same place.

Modifié par wsandista, 26 octobre 2012 - 02:52 .

[draken-heart]

TheRealJayDee wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

Of course, that means we have to think fourth dimensionally, and realize choices made in game one should affect game four somehow. As long as BioWare is doing that I see no problem here. 

But the problem with this is, as many people said, that based on our experiences and Bioware's own statements that is something that is just not going to happen with any of the bigger decisions. Smaller things, yeah, but any world changing decision can by default not be of real relevance in later games.

no choice from Origin was of relevance in two, because the game was not about what the warden did or not. You could have had a representative of Ferelden there to get aid from Kirkwall against a potential threat from Orlais, and it would have made as much sense as Alistair being there.

[jillabender]

I agree that the way save imports can end up tying the writers' hands is unfortunate – I would like to see the writers give themselves the freedom to go with whichever set of events from the previous games offers more potential for a strong story, instead of worrying that they'll contradict choices some players made in previous games. There's not much I can say about that issue that Fast Jimmy hasn't, but I do have some thoughts about a different problem that the save imports created for me.

I feel like a bit of a jerk for saying this, because I know that the developers genuinely wanted to please fans with the save imports, but I sometimes found that the imports actually created a sense of disconnect. The minor quests in DA2 that related to DA:O plot choices, like finding a treatment for the werewolves from Nature of the Beast in convenient "ingredient chests" on Sundermount, drew my attention to the differences in style, tone and story-telling between the two games – and that made it harder for me to set aside my expectations from DA:O. But then, maybe that's just me.

That being said, I appreciate that many fans feel very differently about the save imports and really want to see them included, and that's fine. I wasn't sold on the way save imports were handled in DA2, but I have faith that BioWare will improve on them in DA3, even if the approach they end up taking isn't quite what I'd prefer.

Modifié par jillabender, 26 octobre 2012 - 03:23 .

[NedPepper]

draken-heart wrote...

nedpepper wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

nedpepper wrote...

wright1978 wrote...

nedpepper wrote...


And then you have the books written by Gaider.  Canon or not?  Well, I hope so, because otherwise....why did I waste my time reading them?  Are Maric's stories canon?  Is Alistar half elf?  Does Fiona exist?  Does Cole exist?  Was Wynne's REAL death in Asunder?  It was incredibly moving.  Did she die there or she did die when you wanted to side with the Templars in Origins on one of your playthroughs?  Does her son, Rhys, exist as a mage in Orlais?  None of this stuff can be followed up on because the save import, which is basically creates a fractured universe with a thousand alternate universes, and can't realistically be held in any kind of order from one person's playthrough to another.  

By that logic if they removed the import you would see no point in playing the game?

As far as i'm concerned they are an alternative universe, a diversion where people can enjoy looking in on how Gaider's own personal canon plays out. The characters most certainly exist but the events will not necessarily have panned out identically based on people's own canon universes. In mine Alistair is dead and i certainly don't want the game universe suddenly ignoring that fact. As a Wynne's concerned she's either dead before or in Asunder and won't appear again.

I may get flamed for this, but David Gaider created these characters.  It really is HIS story.  It's Bioware's.  They allow me to roleplay a character within a game and a universe they created.  But the story and the characters don't just come up out of thin air.  They were written.  There's a narrative.  There's continuity, but it has to be FLUID.  You can't have a million different versions of Thedas and expect to keep making sequels reflecting every little thing you do.  Eventually, the story will just topple over on itself if some things are not canonized. The save import is an illusion.  But it's not even an effective illusion.

they could do something like Twizted said, KotoR2 way of "Importing" early dialogue of what happened with two choices. Two sets of canon and people get to create the world's events, compromise.

I thoroughly enjoyed KotoR 2 because I still had choice, both for the game itself and for the story, and that did not have an import. Though it was a different company.

I feel like you're missing the bigger point here.  Every game should have big choices that mean something.  Divergent paths.  Interesting twists. 

BUT, it should be just for the game itself.   Afterwards, with the import, all those important decisions, are made IRRELEVANT.  Because you end up with a fractured universe, and development either trying to import it all in a senseable fashion, or IGNORING IT COMPLETELY.  The Anvil.  The Urn.  Alistar shows up in meaningless cameo to make a swooping joke.  As a fan of the game, I WANT TO SEE ALISTAR.  I want to see Sten again.  But if they're dead on half of the people's playthroughs, they no longer having any importance in this series.  They can't.  It's not affordable.

Look at how people react to Leliana and Anders being alive.  Their choices were "violated." 

So now, anything that has import on it either has to be retconned in story in a hamfisted way, or ignored.

What ends up happening is they STOP GIVING YOU CHOICES.  There is on ZERO difference in the end of Dragon Age 2.  Why?  Because they didn't want the import messing up the narrative.  Regardless of who Hawke sided with, the end result was the same.

Eventually, it causes railroading into a very linear story where only minor things can have importance to be imported over.

It's not cost efficient.  It doesn't really work, as evidenced by multiple people here.  And it creates a mess of continuity.

Gaider himself said on this very forum that he regretted the Old God Baby decision.  Why?  Because they can't do anything with it.  Because not everyone made the choice.  So, now he has to figure out how such a huge plot point can be acknowledged going forward, or just ignoring it as if it never happened.  And that's a shame.  Because Morrigan and her baby had a TON of potential.  See what I'm saying?

Could they do an interactive comic?  I guess.  But people are still choosing one or the other, and anytime you have the chance of a 50/50 split, how much does the writer put into a story that only half the people will ever experience?

The solution:  Create lots of choices in the game and have them actually mean something.  Moving forward, pick a canon and go from there Baldur's Gate style.  Imagine if the import had been in Baldur's Gate 2.  No Minsc.  One of the most popular characters in Bioware's history.

Why should I never get to see Sten, or Oghren, or Merrill, or Alistar again in any important context because some guy somewhere on one playthough killed them?  It's becomes inherently selfish and short sighted.

I, like everyone else, wanted to like the import.   But the logistics didn't work.  Not in Mass Effect where it was actually IMPORTANT.  So why do we need it  in Dragon Age?

Unless Hawke or the Warden show up again in any meaningful way, it's just a wink-wink.  A very expensive, limiting wink of the eye.  It's a bad pigeon joke by a bartender in the Hangman.  That's it.  Is it really worth saving?

Is DA itself worth saving at this point? I doubt it, peopel will still remember the horror that they consider DA2, which was rushed.

If they actually admitted they made a mistake and that save imports were the reason DA2's story was so terrible, then I would agree with most of you. But i do not really see them outright saying that as the save file transfer system is established as part of the series.

Here's the thing.  I love Dragon Age. I've played both Origins and DA 2 a combined...at least 15 times.  I'm not saying all this as some kind of angry troll who hates Bioware.  I'm saying this because I think it would help the franchise in the long term.

As for going forward, Gaider did mention in the last thread about this topic that it's possible they may ditch it eventually.  We'll see.  He also mentioned doing the imports BETTER for DA 3.  We'll see there, as well.  I don't have tremendous faith, but they may surprise us.  

[draken-heart]

wsandista wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

wsandista wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

wsandista wrote...

Please just drop the import. I would rather play an amazing individual game that can end in a variety of different ways and responds to all choices than one that limits choice just to have a reference to a choice made by a PC in a previous game.

I said it once, I will say it again, this thread sounds like it is trying to convince Bioware to remve a feature they deemed necessary to the franchise. Let them think and decide for themselves. And dont try to make people see your way and then blow off their beliefs with the phrase "It constrics the writers to account for every choice and the game could be better without it." Sure it could, but ME3 and DA were in my mind Great games, not because of the import, though it was a good touch, but because I enjoyed the story the games had (ME3 had the Reaper war, and DA2 was Hawke's rise to power in Kirkwall).

ME3 didn't need choices from previous games, because all they really amounted to is 1) Which VS is alive and who is alive from ME2 and 2)several Cameos and variations of (whatever they called the resources)

DA2 handwaived away several choices as well, not to mention some of the boons.

If Bioware can't do imports well, then they shouldn't do them. Having a small reference to a choice made in a previous game is not as important as giving the player plenty of choices with consequence.

I will use NV, Did it's choices have any impact on the game itself? not really. If choices do not matter till endgame, then why have choices anywhere but endgame?

That is an apples to oranges comparison. NV is a completely different type of game than either DA.

Compare DAO to DA2.

DAO had plenty of choices throughout the game, many which had different results. DA2 had little choices(most of the time Hawke just stood around) and the choices it did allow always ended up in the same place.

Didn't EA want DA2 out the door by a certain time? I doubt that was because they found out they were putting Save imnports into the game.

[Fast Jimmy]

wsandista wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

wsandista wrote...

Please just drop the import. I would rather play an amazing individual game that can end in a variety of different ways and responds to all choices than one that limits choice just to have a reference to a choice made by a PC in a previous game.

I said it once, I will say it again, this thread sounds like it is trying to convince Bioware to remve a feature they deemed necessary to the franchise. Let them think and decide for themselves. And dont try to make people see your way and then blow off their beliefs with the phrase "It constrics the writers to account for every choice and the game could be better without it." Sure it could, but ME3 and DA were in my mind Great games, not because of the import, though it was a good touch, but because I enjoyed the story the games had (ME3 had the Reaper war, and DA2 was Hawke's rise to power in Kirkwall).

ME3 didn't need choices from previous games, because all they really amounted to is 1) Which VS is alive and who is alive from ME2 and 2)several Cameos and variations of (whatever they called the resources)

DA2 handwaived away several choices as well, not to mention some of the boons.

If Bioware can't do imports well, then they shouldn't do them. Having a small reference to a choice made in a previous game is not as important as giving the player plenty of choices with consequence.

ME3 didn't need choices from previous games...? WUT?

I mean, I know they IGNORED all choices from previous games, but I wouldn't say they had to do that. For instance, they didn't HAVE to pretend like the Genophage Cure was saved every time and was in the exact same level of development/completion, or that saving the Collector Base would have absolutely zero effect on gaining more Reaper technology for Cerberus (or destroying it would have any effect on them being less crazy/Indoctrinated). Or that you could program the Geth to not want to follow the Repears (even though, less than six months later, every single Geth says "Hey... let's hook back up with the Reapers and implant some Reaper tech in us!) 

ME3's main plot didn't require any prior choices (insofar as its basically "gather forces/fight Cereberus/Return to Earth/Facepalm" but that's because Mass Effect 3 was a poor narrative. That doesn't mean that ME3 "got away" with not needing any prior game choices.

[marshalleck]

TheRealJayDee wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

Of course, that means we have to think fourth dimensionally, and realize choices made in game one should affect game four somehow. As long as BioWare is doing that I see no problem here. 

But the problem with this is, as many people said, that based on our experiences and Bioware's own statements that is something that is just not going to happen with any of the bigger decisions. Smaller things, yeah, but any world changing decision can by default not be of real relevance in later games.

And this is the sticking point which causes this discussion to become circular. Some people still believe that minor cameos and a few shout-outs to past decisions are somehow big and important events that are the only reason Thedas is worth visiting in the first place. 

[LinksOcarina]

TheRealJayDee wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

Of course, that means we have to think fourth dimensionally, and realize choices made in game one should affect game four somehow. As long as BioWare is doing that I see no problem here. 

But the problem with this is, as many people said, that based on our experiences and Bioware's own statements that is something that is just not going to happen with any of the bigger decisions. Smaller things, yeah, but any world changing decision can by default not be of real relevance in later games.

but thats the point, they should be small decisions. If it was a big decision, then the question becomes "well, why did I miss that in game one? Now I have to play through three games again to get to this point. " The major storyline is always going to be somewhat stand alone, and major decisions will get railroaded in a way, Origins will always have a winning outcome for Ferelden and a new ruler on the throne, the changes come regarding who the ruler is and how the demon is killed. Same happens for Dragon Age II, the mage/templar war is going to rage on, and Anders will always start it. How you deal with Anders, and whose side Hawke chooses, changes the outlook of the story.

I have no problem with this, because in the end that is BioWare's story. They do this all the time, with Mass Effect, Baldurs Gate, and Kotor. The story is unchanged regardless of what you do at major points, but it has to be by design of the story itself being both self-contained, and malleable enough to manipulate.

So yeah, I see to be honest, as long as people understand that the smaller choices are what gives the world the character. I don't expect major decisions to fully be explained or revealed in the end, because that would basically be impossible unless if they make a game with two or more diverging storylines.Of course some major issues will have to be resolved in-game, the dark ritual being the biggest elephant in the room. And doing a deus ex machina on that is not the best method, so I hope BioWare figures out how to implement it correctly. But for smaller things I expect to see that flavor we create, because that was the purpose to begin with. They are not big decisons, but they become personal ones that make the world moe unique. 

Modifié par LinksOcarina, 26 octobre 2012 - 02:56 .

[wsandista]

draken-heart wrote...

wsandista wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

wsandista wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

wsandista wrote...

Please just drop the import. I would rather play an amazing individual game that can end in a variety of different ways and responds to all choices than one that limits choice just to have a reference to a choice made by a PC in a previous game.

I said it once, I will say it again, this thread sounds like it is trying to convince Bioware to remve a feature they deemed necessary to the franchise. Let them think and decide for themselves. And dont try to make people see your way and then blow off their beliefs with the phrase "It constrics the writers to account for every choice and the game could be better without it." Sure it could, but ME3 and DA were in my mind Great games, not because of the import, though it was a good touch, but because I enjoyed the story the games had (ME3 had the Reaper war, and DA2 was Hawke's rise to power in Kirkwall).

ME3 didn't need choices from previous games, because all they really amounted to is 1) Which VS is alive and who is alive from ME2 and 2)several Cameos and variations of (whatever they called the resources)

DA2 handwaived away several choices as well, not to mention some of the boons.

If Bioware can't do imports well, then they shouldn't do them. Having a small reference to a choice made in a previous game is not as important as giving the player plenty of choices with consequence.

I will use NV, Did it's choices have any impact on the game itself? not really. If choices do not matter till endgame, then why have choices anywhere but endgame?

That is an apples to oranges comparison. NV is a completely different type of game than either DA.

Compare DAO to DA2.

DAO had plenty of choices throughout the game, many which had different results. DA2 had little choices(most of the time Hawke just stood around) and the choices it did allow always ended up in the same place.

Didn't EA want DA2 out the door by a certain time? I doubt that was because they found out they were putting Save imnports into the game.

And this is relevant how exactly?

[Fast Jimmy]

draken-heart wrote...

Didn't EA want DA2 out the door by a certain time? I doubt that was because they found out they were putting Save imnports into the game.

Everything from the actual Bioware employees says it was their choice to make the game quickly, that they did not anticipate how removing such features, how a shorter development cycle, the change in art style or the re-used environments would be received so poorly. They thought they were truly being innovative by giving us a game as quickly as possible.

I believe them when they say this - they wanted to do right by the fans, but did not anticipate how jarring it would be going from a game that was developed in 5+ years to a game that was developed in (at most) 18 months.

[wsandista]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

ME3 didn't need choices from previous games...? WUT?

I mean, I know they IGNORED all choices from previous games, but I wouldn't say they had to do that. For instance, they didn't HAVE to pretend like the Genophage Cure was saved every time and was in the exact same level of development/completion, or that saving the Collector Base would have absolutely zero effect on gaining more Reaper technology for Cerberus (or destroying it would have any effect on them being less crazy/Indoctrinated). Or that you could program the Geth to not want to follow the Repears (even though, less than six months later, every single Geth says "Hey... let's hook back up with the Reapers and implant some Reaper tech in us!) 

ME3's main plot didn't require any prior choices (insofar as its basically "gather forces/fight Cereberus/Return to Earth/Facepalm" but that's because Mass Effect 3 was a poor narrative. That doesn't mean that ME3 "got away" with not needing any prior game choices.

They did though. ME3 is not really different in any meaningful way depending on choices from previous games. I think that ME could have pulled off import choices (seeing as it was following one character) but it didn't. Whether this is due to poor writing or lack of resources to spend on more content to allow recognition of previous choices because cinematics and 'splosions had to happen isn't important. What is important is the imports in ME3 didn't mean ****.

[draken-heart]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

Didn't EA want DA2 out the door by a certain time? I doubt that was because they found out they were putting Save imnports into the game.

Everything from the actual Bioware employees says it was their choice to make the game quickly, that they did not anticipate how removing such features, how a shorter development cycle, the change in art style or the re-used environments would be received so poorly. They thought they were truly being innovative by giving us a game as quickly as possible.

I believe them when they say this - they wanted to do right by the fans, but did not anticipate how jarring it would be going from a game that was developed in 5+ years to a game that was developed in (at most) 18 months.

As I have said, I enjoyed the story of DA2, which has nothing to do with imports tying the writers hands. As long as they give me some semblance of control of the world history and an enjoyable storyline, I do not care how choices from past game are handled.

Take one away from me, I lose some interest in the game, not vest as much time playing it. So if there was a set canon, I would play straight through once, but after that it would be when I feel like it, which would not be as often as playing ME series, where I do have a semblance of control over the galactic history.

Modifié par draken-heart, 26 octobre 2012 - 03:07 .

[Heimdall]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

Didn't EA want DA2 out the door by a certain time? I doubt that was because they found out they were putting Save imnports into the game.

Everything from the actual Bioware employees says it was their choice to make the game quickly, that they did not anticipate how removing such features, how a shorter development cycle, the change in art style or the re-used environments would be received so poorly. They thought they were truly being innovative by giving us a game as quickly as possible.

I believe them when they say this - they wanted to do right by the fans, but did not anticipate how jarring it would be going from a game that was developed in 5+ years to a game that was developed in (at most) 18 months.

Exactly.  Actually I think the 5+ year development cycle of the previous game probably made them feel like they needed to innovate and update drastically.

[JWvonGoethe]

1. Imports make the story worse.

2. Bioware will not remove imports.

Conclusion:

Bioware should make the story work better with the import feature.

[jillabender]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Everything from the actual Bioware employees says it was their choice to make the game quickly […] They thought they were truly being innovative by giving us a game as quickly as possible.

I believe them when they say this - they wanted to do right by the fans, but did not anticipate how jarring it would be going from a game that was developed in 5+ years to a game that was developed in (at most) 18 months.

Well said! It saddens me when I hear people accuse BioWare of "laziness" because of their frustrations with DA2, because everything I've heard from the developers tells me that they truly do want to do right by fans.

As I said in my earlier post, I think that the minor quests that were tied to the save imports in DA2 sometimes felt shoe-horned in – and that sometimes made the differences between the two games feel more jarring, creating a sense of disconnect.

Modifié par jillabender, 26 octobre 2012 - 03:13 .

[Fast Jimmy]

LinksOcarina wrote...

But the problem with this is, as many people said, that based on our experiences and Bioware's own statements that is something that is just not going to happen with any of the bigger decisions. Smaller things, yeah, but any world changing decision can by default not be of real relevance in later games.

but thats the point, they should be small decisions. If it was a big decision, then the question becomes "well, why did I miss that in game one? Now I have to play through three games again to get to this point. " The major storyline is always going to be somewhat stand alone, and major decisions will get railroaded in a way, Origins will always have a winning outcome for Ferelden and a new ruler on the throne, the changes come regarding who the ruler is and how the demon is killed. Same happens for Dragon Age II, the mage/templar war is going to rage on, and Anders will always start it. How you deal with Anders, and whose side Hawke chooses, changes the outlook of the story.

I have no problem with this, because in the end that is BioWare's story. They do this all the time, with Mass Effect, Baldurs Gate, and Kotor. The story is unchanged regardless of what you do at major points, but it has to be by design of the story itself being both self-contained, and malleable enough to manipulate.

So yeah, I see to be honest, as long as people understand that the smaller choices are what gives the world the character. I don't expect major decisions to fully be explained or revealed in the end, because that would basically be impossible unless if they make a game with two or more diverging storylines.Of course some major issues will have to be resolved in-game, the dark ritual being the biggest elephant in the room. And doing a deus ex machina on that is not the best method, so I hope BioWare figures out how to implement it correctly. But for smaller things I expect to see that flavor we create, because that was the purpose to begin with. They are not big decisons, but they become personal ones that make the world moe unique. 

But that's the thing - in DA:O, you were given pretty big decisions.Decisions that affect the world. And it felt AWESOME to make them... you felt their weight. They brought up real ethical, moral dilemmas BECAUSE they were so big.

Its easy to say "do I give the beggar money or kick him in his face and laugh?" That's a small choice. A big choice would be "Do I try and cure these werewolves... or do I incite them to violence and butcher the entire clan and then fight for me?" After all, if the werewolves can show up and slaughter the entire clan, then that means the werewolves would probably be better, stronger allies... allies which would help you defeat the Archdemon. Its obvious which move is more d!ckish. But if it saves the lives of thousands by improving your chances to stop the Blight... then that's a factor.

In DA2, there wasn't a single choice that I had to think "what is the greater good here?" It was all whatever my Hawke wanted to do. Kill a guy you think might be a serial killer? Sure, no big deal. Turns out he wasn't and it doesn't stop the real serial killer from killing your mom regardless, so whatever. Sell the soul of a sominari mage? No big deal. You get a small bonus and, later, you get the option to get more XP and loot by killing a bunch of abominations later. I mean... its not like people you have seen or care about die because of it. Its really a win-win (all bonus, no negative story feedback). Murder knife Anders? He was being quite d!ckish, killing people and setting off a bunch of chaos. But it doesn't matter... dolling out Justice (no pun intended) by killing him doesn't end or prevent anything.

In DA:O, I felt like I was dealing with issues larger than myself, deciding things that would affect not just my life, but the lives of others, for possibly years or generations down the road. You picked two monarchs, decided the fate of two of the most incredibly powerful magical artifiacts in the history of Thedas, you had the choice to allow an entire insitution in Thedas rebuild itself, or purge it of life to make sure it was free of abominiations and had the offer to bring an actual known deity into existnece by participating in a very sketchy ritualistic sex scene.

All of these brought questions, questions of not just "what do I want to do" but "what effect will this have on the world?" The epilogue slides were great in fleshing out those possibliities. But in DA2, they gave hardly any choices that made me think "how will the world be better/worse off if I choose X instead of Y?" Which makes it feel like a choice I don't really care about. 


Did the import mechanic cause all of this? No. Not all of it. But during the process of addressing the import questions in both Awakening and in DA2, it obviously became quite clear to the team that importing choices was going to be a much bigger task than they anticipated. While they were still grappling with the choices from DA:O, they didn't want to add fuel to the fire with DA2's choices. That, coupled with the design choice for DA2 to make it a more insular game, taking place only in Kirkwall, gave them the wiggle room to more or less "run away" from a lot fo choices. But in DA3, the chickens are coming home to roost, just like they did in ME3. We'll see if the team can live up to the promise the imports implied, or if they can come up with another approach that allows them to create content economically, but makes everyone feel like their choices mattered, both on a macro and a micro level. Or, they could set a canon and just make up their own standard series of events.

At this point, I'm not telling Bioware what to do... I'm telling fans that they cling to this feature and put emphasis on it when they shouldn't. Its a feature of resource quicksand that lends itself heavily to retcons and shortcuts and sooner or later, you're going to get your feelings hurt. DA2 it was Leliana and Anders. DA3 it may be Sten and Fenris. Who knows? I'm not trying to make Bioware stop... I'm trying to make people here on the BSN realize that what they have built up in their minds is not actually providing the benefit you all think it is, and its costing more resources than you imagine it ever would. 

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 26 octobre 2012 - 03:51 .

[Fast Jimmy]

JWvonGoethe wrote...

1. Imports make the story worse.

2. Bioware will not remove imports.

Conclusion:

Bioware should make the story work better with the import feature.

Other possible conclusion: Bioware will still waste resources on imports and stories will be worse.

[draken-heart]

I guess what I am trying to say is, having a specified set of canon choices forces me to disconnect from my "alternative universe" to play the developer's "canon universe" and makes me lose some interest in playing in a world I have no desire to learn about.

I would be okay with canon choice, as long as I get to decide who the warden/Hawke were and whether or not they had LIs and who those were.

[Yalision]

The major allure of Bioware RPG's is the save import feature, at least to me. I know I'm not alone. The idea of giving players choice and then building upon a timeline that takes place exactly after the previous game, then ignoring the repercussions of what the player did, would honestly tick me off. It would make no sense, much in the way Fable ticked me off. If we are playing a linear story, it's not much of an RPG.

[jillabender]

draken-heart wrote...

I guess what I am trying to say is, having a specified set of canon choices forces me to disconnect from my "alternative universe" to play the developer's "canon universe" and makes me lose some interest in playing in a world I have no desire to learn about.

I would be okay with canon choice, as long as I get to decide who the warden/Hawke were and whether or not they had LIs and who those were.

I have no problem with importing choices like who the PC romanced in the previous games – choices like that aren't likely to tie the writers' hands in any serious way. When it comes to major plot choices, though, I think it would make more sense for the writers to set a canon set of events, because that would give them more freedom to explore the consequences of those events in depth. Of course, it's ultimately BioWare's call to make.

Modifié par jillabender, 26 octobre 2012 - 03:32 .

[wsandista]

Yalision wrote...

The major allure of Bioware RPG's is the save import feature, at least to me. I know I'm not alone. The idea of giving players choice and then building upon a timeline that takes place exactly after the previous game, then ignoring the repercussions of what the player did, would honestly tick me off. It would make no sense, much in the way Fable ticked me off. If we are playing a linear story, it's not much of an RPG.

I don't recall BG2 NWN,or KOTOR having an import feature.....

Also, how is DA or ME not a linear story?

[Fast Jimmy]

draken-heart wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

Didn't EA want DA2 out the door by a certain time? I doubt that was because they found out they were putting Save imnports into the game.

Everything from the actual Bioware employees says it was their choice to make the game quickly, that they did not anticipate how removing such features, how a shorter development cycle, the change in art style or the re-used environments would be received so poorly. They thought they were truly being innovative by giving us a game as quickly as possible.

I believe them when they say this - they wanted to do right by the fans, but did not anticipate how jarring it would be going from a game that was developed in 5+ years to a game that was developed in (at most) 18 months.

As I have said, I enjoyed the story of DA2, which has nothing to do with imports tying the writers hands. As long as they give me some semblance of control of the world history and an enjoyable storyline, I do not care how choices from past game are handled.

Take one away from me, I lose some interest in the game, not vest as much time playing it. So if there was a set canon, I would play straight through once, but after that it would be when I feel like it, which would not be as often as playing ME series, where I do have a semblance of control over the galactic history.

Have you ever played a game that didn't offer imports more than once? Just to see different outcomes, diffeernt choices, different endings?

I'm not talking about removing all choice in the games, period. I'm talking about having TONS of choice in the game, so much choice it could make your eyes bleed. So many endings, you wouldn't be able to recognize one from another as the same game. Dead companions, living companions, epic choices, world changing events... forty years of darkness, earthquakes, volcanoes, the dead rising from the grave, human sacrifice, cats and dogs... living together... mass hysteria!

And then... when the next DA game comes out? The pieces all get put back together and the world is reconstructed. 

I'm not talking about LESS of a reason to replay and enjoy a game. I'm talking about untying the writers hands, so they aren't afraid to introduce a little random chaos into the story jsut because it might topple the house of cards in a future game. I mean... people are saying that want games with choices that can't possibly affect a future game.

That's... that's lame!

Do you realize how few choices that is? You can't kick anyone out of your friend group, you can't choose for anyone to die (for good or bad reasons), you can't save someone's life (because, after all, if they are alive in anyone's playthrough that's bad), you can't choose between two things, you really can only choose one thing... its insane. Do you give ten sovereigns to help the Ferelden refugees? That's nice. Let me tell you how much that affects the game... NADA.

DA2 had very little choices that felt worthwhile. They were, as follows, this: Companion Bull Sheet, Feynriel's outcome, sibling outcome (dead, Warden, Templar/Circle), Mage/Templar and Anders' Murder Knife.

Don't bring up Fenris' slave option and Isabella's slave option or Merril's sla... I mean, mirror option. That's all Companion B.S. Totally irrelevant to future stories (although the fact that those options exist mostly mean we will probably not see any of those companions again - so thanks chocie imports, you've been a great help). I almost put your sibling's  and Ander's outcome with the C.B.S., but I figured I'd be nice. 

So that gives your four choices that really tied into the overarching world. And guess what? If DA2 wanted to create a game that didn't have any possible way of affecting future DA games? IT WOULDN'T EVEN HAVE THESE.

THAT IS A PROBLEM. That is a complete lack of choice. When your game comes down to less than a half-dozen choices that could legitimately make things play out differently and they STILL wouldn't qualify as being "limited to in-game" in their scope, then the system is broken.





Let them set a canon. Then in the next game, they can offer every choice under the sun, tell any story from a previous game/plotline they want, have any character return in any fashion they please... PLEASE! Please let them do this! Its maddening to me how little people really think about things beyond the mentality of a two-year-old, saying "IWANTITIWANTITIWANTIT!"