637 réponses à ce sujet

[Malanek]

jillabender wrote...

I have no problem with importing choices like who the PC romanced in the previous games – choices like that aren't likely to tie the writers' hands in any serious way. When it comes to major plot choices, though, I think it would make more sense for the writers to set a canon set of events, because that would give them more freedom to explore the consequences of those events in depth. Of course, it's ultimately BioWare's call to make.

Agree. And you will sometimes even get to see the consequences when they go with a different choice than you made...

"Ah, my Warden spared Thedas from the despotic god child." 

[Heimdall]

I think that the new protagonist for each game actually helps them import choices without having to devote as many resources to them as otherwise they might.

[Allan Schumacher]

Bioware should make the story work better with the import feature.

I certainly see it as an interesting and fun challenge!

[Fast Jimmy]

draken-heart wrote...

I guess what I am trying to say is, having a specified set of canon choices forces me to disconnect from my "alternative universe" to play the developer's "canon universe" and makes me lose some interest in playing in a world I have no desire to learn about.

I would be okay with canon choice, as long as I get to decide who the warden/Hawke were and whether or not they had LIs and who those were.

<sigh> I'm going to say this... and I'm going to regret it...

...but that is the silliest thing I've ever heard. 

Why do LI's play into this? What kind of concern is that to have? We haven't heard a peep about the Warden in ten years. In fact, they could be dead if they did the Ultimate Sacrifice. Heck, they could be dead if we didn't given some of the more random comments in DA2. Why does it matter, IN THE LEAST, who they were sleeping with in a tent during the Fifth Blight? Why does it matter who Hawke, a guy who we have confirmed had no influence on history at all and who just happened to be good at killing things during a couple crazy years in Kirkwall, was shacking up with in his High Town mansion? Who cares? What good does that do the world? What good does it do for the story?

Do you expect the Inquisitor to hear about the characters being married and having kids? Do you expect that we'll run into Leliana again and she'll say to us "Oh, I know you don't know either of these people, but the Warden and Allistair are expecting another baby!" Do you think that we'll run into Fenris and say "Oh, yes, I'm going to be late for a date with Hawke." 

What possible follow up would their be for LIs? What conceivable reason would they play into the larger story? Do you expect Hawke and the Warden to show up, like Supermen with their capes flapping in the wind and their LIs on their arms at some point? Because if so, then you clearly haven't been listening to any of the 500+ word rants I've been posting in this thread. THEY AREN'T BRINGING YOUR CHARACTERS BACK. Not their choices, not their LIs, not their faces, not their anything. Anything they mention with the import flags will be bread crumbs from the table of the Greater Narrative. How can they make the Warden a part of the story? Not everyone's Warden is alive. And they wouldn't dare put a voice to the Wardens, for fear of total freakout by fans. They could bring Hawke back, but to what end? To say a few lines using your dominant tone and do things that are outside of your control? To say "Hey, we haven't met, but let me just tell you... Merril (someone you don't know) and I are sweethearts. We love doing demon summoning picnics together." Gee, that's swell. 

I realize that the LIs are enjoyable. I realize that interacting with companions is a lot of fun - trust me, I enjoy it, too. But what, in the name of ALL that is holy, does it have to do with the future? That you can suggest that the future of an entire kingdom is something that can have a vague, ambiguous reference or outcome (despite the fact that some of the choices would affect dozens, hundreds or even thousands of lives in game) but that the writers have to adhere to your LI choices... because otherwise you'd have no reason to play the game... that, to me, is the definition of monumental silliness and borderline sophmoric attitude.

[draken-heart]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

I guess what I am trying to say is, having a specified set of canon choices forces me to disconnect from my "alternative universe" to play the developer's "canon universe" and makes me lose some interest in playing in a world I have no desire to learn about.

I would be okay with canon choice, as long as I get to decide who the warden/Hawke were and whether or not they had LIs and who those were.

<sigh> I'm going to say this... and I'm going to regret it...

...but that is the silliest thing I've ever heard. 

Why do LI's play into this? What kind of concern is that to have? We haven't heard a peep about the Warden in ten years. In fact, they could be dead if they did the Ultimate Sacrifice. Heck, they could be dead if we didn't given some of the more random comments in DA2. Why does it matter, IN THE LEAST, who they were sleeping with in a tent during the Fifth Blight? Why does it matter who Hawke, a guy who we have confirmed had no influence on history at all and who just happened to be good at killing things during a couple crazy years in Kirkwall, was shacking up with in his High Town mansion? Who cares? What good does that do the world? What good does it do for the story?

Do you expect the Inquisitor to hear about the characters being married and having kids? Do you expect that we'll run into Leliana again and she'll say to us "Oh, I know you don't know either of these people, but the Warden and Allistair are expecting another baby!" Do you think that we'll run into Fenris and say "Oh, yes, I'm going to be late for a date with Hawke." 

What possible follow up would their be for LIs? What conceivable reason would they play into the larger story? Do you expect Hawke and the Warden to show up, like Supermen with their capes flapping in the wind and their LIs on their arms at some point? Because if so, then you clearly haven't been listening to any of the 500+ word rants I've been posting in this thread. THEY AREN'T BRINGING YOUR CHARACTERS BACK. Not their choices, not their LIs, not their faces, not their anything. Anything they mention with the import flags will be bread crumbs from the table of the Greater Narrative. How can they make the Warden a part of the story? Not everyone's Warden is alive. And they wouldn't dare put a voice to the Wardens, for fear of total freakout by fans. They could bring Hawke back, but to what end? To say a few lines using your dominant tone and do things that are outside of your control? To say "Hey, we haven't met, but let me just tell you... Merril (someone you don't know) and I are sweethearts. We love doing demon summoning picnics together." Gee, that's swell. 

I realize that the LIs are enjoyable. I realize that interacting with companions is a lot of fun - trust me, I enjoy it, too. But what, in the name of ALL that is holy, does it have to do with the future? That you can suggest that the future of an entire kingdom is something that can have a vague, ambiguous reference or outcome (despite the fact that some of the choices would affect dozens, hundreds or even thousands of lives in game) but that the writers have to adhere to your LI choices... because otherwise you'd have no reason to play the game... that, to me, is the definition of monumental silliness and borderline sophmoric attitude.

To me, the romance is a part of who the warden and hawke were. Remove those, and you might as well disconnect me even more that the canon choices ever would by giving me a canon male human noble warden and a canon male mage Hawke.

Plus, KotoR 2 had that droid with a message for Revan and the person in the hologram was Bastila, canon romance for male Revan and Darkside Revan (Likely), or Carth for lightside female Revan.

Same could be done here, a letter from the warden to the LI that the Inquisitor finds on a dead courier. or from Hawke to LI.

Modifié par draken-heart, 26 octobre 2012 - 04:03 .

[Fast Jimmy]

draken-heart wrote...

To me, the romance is a part of who the warden and hawke were. Remove those, and you might as well disconnect me even more that the canon choices ever would by giving me a canon male human noble warden and a canon male mage Hawke.

A) i still see this as very silly. 

I don't even see how that can play out in future games. So, to be honest... go for it. I can't see how picking an LI for a character you're not even playing anymore could affect anything, anyway.

This just shows the fundamental different between how we view Bioware games. I see the story as being about the world. You see the story as being about the people. 

You don't have a problem with the import, because the choices about people are hardly mentioned at all in future games. I have a problem with the import, because if I changed the world, the world should be changed. If the people state are ignored, the choice didn't matter for you. If the world state is ignored, then the choice didn't matter for me.

Again... since I can't imagine anyway possible that they could logically even acknowledge LI's and romances in a foreign country with a different character nearly a decade afterwards... then sure, make that import carry over, or let the players choose it during the opening of DA3. But set a canon for the big choices, the choices that affect the world... because otherwise, the world feels fake. Even if its not the choice I made, I'd be happy to see how these stories play out, because they are interesting ideas, stories choices and consequences.

EDIT: Also, another way this shows we are totally different... I didn't even THINK of them naming the Origin as canon for DA:O. That's a cool feature, but it doesn't affect the world in the least. The choices I made were COLORED by whether I was a mage, a dwarf, a Dalish, etc. But the decisions themselves are what matter to me get recognized, not the personal background details.

Again, I can't really think of a way they'd even find a reason to mention the Origins of the Warden, so... sure. Go ahead and include that. All that personal, non-essential, likely-not-to-be-mentioned-except-in-a-Codex-entry stuff can be added in future games. As long as the REAL choices are addressed and not just swept under the rug.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 26 octobre 2012 - 04:06 .

[draken-heart]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

To me, the romance is a part of who the warden and hawke were. Remove those, and you might as well disconnect me even more that the canon choices ever would by giving me a canon male human noble warden and a canon male mage Hawke.

A) i still see this as very silly. 

I don't even see how that can play out in future games. So, to be honest... go for it. I can't see how picking an LI for a character you're not even playing anymore could affect anything, anyway.

This just shows the fundamental different between how we view Bioware games. I see the story as being about the world. You see the story as being about the people. 

You don't have a problem with the import, because the choices about people are hardly mentioned at all in future games. I have a problem with the import, because if I changed the world, the world should be changed. If the people state are ignored, the choice didn't matter for you. If the world state is ignored, then the choice didn't matter for me.

Again... since I can't imagine anyway possible that they could logically even acknowledge LI's and romances in a foreign country with a different character nearly a decade afterwards... then sure, make that import carry over, or let the players choose it during the opening of DA3. But set a canon for the big choices, the choices that affect the world... because otherwise, the world feels fake. Even if its not the choice I made, I'd be happy to see how these stories play out, because they are interesting ideas, stories choices and consequences.

EDIT: Also, another way this shows we are totally different... I didn't even THINK of them naming the Origin as canon for DA:O. That's a cool feature, but it doesn't affect the world in the least. The choices I made were COLORED by whether I was a mage, a dwarf, a Dalish, etc. But the decisions themselves are what matter to me get recognized, not the personal background details.

Again, I can't really think of a way they'd even find a reason to mention the Origins of the Warden, so... sure. Go ahead and include that. All that personal, non-essential, likely-not-to-be-mentioned-except-in-a-Codex-entry stuff can be added in future games. As long as the REAL choices are addressed and not just swept under the rug.

I think we actually agree on something. Even if I am forced to go with canon choices, let me have control over creating the person that makes those decisions.

[Fast Jimmy]

draken-heart wrote...

I think we actually agree on something. Even if I am forced to go with canon choices, let me have control over creating the person that makes those decisions.

Sure, because what you are asking for only needs to be addressed with Codex entries and cameos. My stuff can be addressed with a canon set and real story content tying into overarching plot.

Although I'm going to need to take a stand with Allistair (since he can be a monarch or not) and Morrigan (she's going to need to have that OGB). So if you romanced Allistair as a female Warden and didn't let him sleep with Morrigan to save your lives... that's going to have to happen. The OGB needs to be canon. Its too big of a plot to NOT do. And the leader of a country needs to be decided, one way or the other. So there are two LI beefs that would need to be ironed out in the writing room when setting canon. 

Other than that, I think we can honestly play by the same set of rules.

[GreatPhail]

Can't we just have choices that matter from previous games AND have choices that make an impact in the game?

[wsandista]

GreatPhail wrote...

Can't we just have choices that matter from previous games AND have choices that make an impact in the game?

No.

[Vicious]

Do you expect the Inquisitor to hear about the characters being married and having kids? Do you expect that we'll run into Leliana again and she'll say to us "Oh, I know you don't know either of these people, but the Warden and Allistair are expecting another baby!" Do you think that we'll run into Fenris and say "Oh, yes, I'm going to be late for a date with Hawke."

They want it because these are the folks who SQUEE at the references [that made no sense to their protagonist] and then turn around and bash the game itself.


It's cosmetic window dressing. Zevran/Leliana/Alistair in DA2 yakking about their LI to a Hawke wondering 'why do i care.' is completely meaningless vs, say, Morrigan's offer and the dark promise. Bioware needs to not waste their time with this stuff, IMO.

And really, that's all that the import feature is good for: Fan Service.

Really. That's it.

[JWvonGoethe]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Bioware should make the story work better with the import feature.

I certainly see it as an interesting and fun challenge!

Thanks for the reply - and good luck!

While I agree with Fast Jimmy that we should manage our expectations realistically, Bioware ought to (and, I believe can) exceed the fans' expectations with this.

Anyway, I'm heading off for now.

[draken-heart]

Vicious wrote...

Do you expect the Inquisitor to hear about the characters being married and having kids? Do you expect that we'll run into Leliana again and she'll say to us "Oh, I know you don't know either of these people, but the Warden and Allistair are expecting another baby!" Do you think that we'll run into Fenris and say "Oh, yes, I'm going to be late for a date with Hawke."

They want it because these are the folks who SQUEE at the references [that made no sense to their protagonist] and then turn around and bash the game itself.


It's cosmetic window dressing. Zevran/Leliana/Alistair in DA2 yakking about their LI to a Hawke wondering 'why do i care.' is completely meaningless vs, say, Morrigan's offer and the dark promise. Bioware needs to not waste their time with this stuff, IMO.

And really, that's all that the import feature is good for: Fan Service.

Really. That's it.

we don't even need it to be in a cameo, A letter that mentions it in the codex, is a good enough thing for me, just as long as it is a warden I  WANT, to make those canon choices.

[marshalleck]

I really have to wonder if something so...out of the way and inconsequential in terms of its ramifications for plot is worth spending development time on. My common sense is screaming no.

[draken-heart]

marshalleck wrote...

I really have to wonder if something so...out of the way and inconsequential in terms of its ramifications for plot is worth spending development time on. My common sense is screaming no.

My common sens is screaming, if it does not impact the game content outside of the codex, then people should be allowed to mess with it how they want.

besides if most of the choices other than race/gender/origin of the warden+warden's LI as well as Gender/class of Hawke+Hawke's LI are going to be canon, you have plenty of Development resources for a better story there.

Modifié par draken-heart, 26 octobre 2012 - 05:59 .

[Realmzmaster]

If gamers want a mention of Hawke or the Warden in a codex. I can live with that. Basically it should say the Warden stopped the fifth blight and Hawke help start the mage/templar war. Both can be resigned to footnotes in history. Or maybe the codex will say that the Warden died killing darkspawn in the Deep Roads or Hawke died defending a village from a horde of darkspawn. Their LIs if they have any related the tales to Varric who recorded them in the memories.
The OGB was born normal. The old god spirit was crushed by the innocence and purity of the child.

Get rid of these loose ends that have little to no purpose in the next game. Let all the decisions and consequences appear in game. Let the world of Thedas be the overarching story.

May Bioware continue each installment of DA with a new protagonist and carry over decisions that affect the world of Thedas not individual characters.

[Genshie]

JWvonGoethe wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Bioware should make the story work better with the import feature.

I certainly see it as an interesting and fun challenge!

Thanks for the reply - and good luck!

While I agree with Fast Jimmy that we should manage our expectations realistically, Bioware ought to (and, I believe can) exceed the fans' expectations with this.

Anyway, I'm heading off for now.

And I thank both of you for making my night. Its good to hear from the Bioware staff on a positive note and a fan who still has faith. I yearn to see Dragon Age threads on other forum websites be talked about in extreme detail again.

I think that we can all agree though that as Bioware has stated this series wasn't ever expected to go this far in terms of a trilogy or more so you have to give them credit for trying to put so much effort into something that they were never expecting to do.

[Genshie]

Realmzmaster wrote...

If gamers want a mention of Hawke or the Warden in a codex. I can live with that. Basically it should say the Warden stopped the fifth blight and Hawke help start the mage/templar war. Both can be resigned to footnotes in history. Or maybe the codex will say that the Warden died killing darkspawn in the Deep Roads or Hawke died defending a village from a horde of darkspawn. Their LIs if they have any related the tales to Varric who recorded them in the memories.
The OGB was born normal. The old god spirit was crushed by the innocence and purity of the child.

Get rid of these loose ends that have little to no purpose in the next game. Let all the decisions and consequences appear in game. Let the world of Thedas be the overarching story.

May Bioware continue each installment of DA with a new protagonist and carry over decisions that affect the world of Thedas not individual characters.

I can agree with that. I wouldn't even mind them using text slides at the end like they used in Awakening to tell us what happened to said characters to wrap things up.

[wright1978]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Why do LI's play into this? What kind of concern is that to have? We haven't heard a peep about the Warden in ten years. In fact, they could be dead if they did the Ultimate Sacrifice. Heck, they could be dead if we didn't given some of the more random comments in DA2. Why does it matter, IN THE LEAST, who they were sleeping with in a tent during the Fifth Blight? Why does it matter who Hawke, a guy who we have confirmed had no influence on history at all and who just happened to be good at killing things during a couple crazy years in Kirkwall, was shacking up with in his High Town mansion? Who cares? What good does that do the world? What good does it do for the story?

Do you expect the Inquisitor to hear about the characters being married and having kids? Do you expect that we'll run into Leliana again and she'll say to us "Oh, I know you don't know either of these people, but the Warden and Allistair are expecting another baby!" Do you think that we'll run into Fenris and say "Oh, yes, I'm going to be late for a date with Hawke." 

If i run into Fenris or any other LI who was in love with Hawke i'd expect him/her as a character to react differently to a missing Hawke than a non romanced version. They can keep these characters and the former protaganists out of the game but if they are going to include them then those characters should reflect in some way the romance as that's a important personal choice.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Vicious wrote...

It's cosmetic window dressing. Zevran/Leliana/Alistair in DA2 yakking about their LI to a Hawke wondering 'why do i care.' is completely meaningless vs, say, Morrigan's offer and the dark promise. Bioware needs to not waste their time with this stuff, IMO.

And really, that's all that the import feature is good for: Fan Service.

Really. That's it.

Unimportant, immaterial, pointless Fan Service.

There is no reason for it to apepar. The Warden and Hawke's story is over. Done.

DA3 is a new game with a new protagonist. As a player you already know  what your Warden/Hawke did.

Who's he's shacking up with (if anyone) is completely, utterly, totally irrelevant.
Frankly, it's not even worth the time wasted to implement it. It's FAR better spent on other stuff.

[Lotion Soronarr]

wright1978 wrote...

If i run into Fenris or any other LI who was in love with Hawke i'd expect him/her as a character to react differently to a missing Hawke than a non romanced version. They can keep these characters and the former protaganists out of the game but if they are going to include them then those characters should reflect in some way the romance as that's a important personal choice.

That makes no sense. Why would Fenris (or anyone for that matter) react differently to a complete stranger?
Do you stop random poeple on the streets and tell them who you are sleeping with?


Hawke romanced: "Greetings traveler."
Hawke not romanced: "Greeting traveler."

As it should be.

[Maria Caliban]

Part of the reason I dislike imports is the expectation they create that things utterly unimportant to the current game should appear and take up screen time just because some flag was set in a file.
I liked Alistair. I think the Alistair cameo in Dragon Age II added nothing to the game. It's just that he was a beloved character and they wanted to show that they were tracking a state.

[wright1978]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

wright1978 wrote...

If i run into Fenris or any other LI who was in love with Hawke i'd expect him/her as a character to react differently to a missing Hawke than a non romanced version. They can keep these characters and the former protaganists out of the game but if they are going to include them then those characters should reflect in some way the romance as that's a important personal choice.

That makes no sense. Why would Fenris (or anyone for that matter) react differently to a complete stranger?
Do you stop random poeple on the streets and tell them who you are sleeping with?


Hawke romanced: "Greetings traveler."
Hawke not romanced: "Greeting traveler."

As it should be.

If greetings traveler is going to the extent of a former LI role then they shouldn't even appear.
If they appear in a larger capacity relating to the story then i would expect them to reflect their concern over finding their missing other half.

[milena87]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Part of the reason I dislike imports is the expectation they create that things utterly unimportant to the current game should appear and take up screen time just because some flag was set in a file.
I liked Alistair. I think the Alistair cameo in Dragon Age II added nothing to the game. It's just that he was a beloved character and they wanted to show that they were tracking a state.

I agree with this.

It's something that Bioware also did with ME: they put (some) time and resources into pointless cameos/emails and ignored or downplayed all the important choices.
Dragon Age, being a different protagonist for each game, can choose another route: they can make the world go forward.

[draken-heart]

I never see anything wrong with imports, mostly because I do not focus on it, but the story I am given. As soon as imports cause the story to not be enjoyable at all to me, then I will join you guys. Until then, I will leave it up to Bioware what they will do.