637 réponses à ce sujet

[Lotion Soronarr]

wright1978 wrote...
If greetings traveler is going to the extent of a former LI role then they shouldn't even appear.
If they appear in a larger capacity relating to the story then i would expect them to reflect their concern over finding their missing other half.

Missing the point.

Why would the LI in question ever talk to you about their love life?
At all? Remember - you are a stranger.

You don't just start unloading your lifes woes on everyone you meet, do you?

Either the LI is a short cameo - in which chase he/she has no reason to tell you anything.
OR
They stick around for a long time, in which case them mentioning something might actually make sense. But in which case a lot of time and zots have to be wasted on that.

So no.

[wright1978]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

wright1978 wrote...
If greetings traveler is going to the extent of a former LI role then they shouldn't even appear.
If they appear in a larger capacity relating to the story then i would expect them to reflect their concern over finding their missing other half.

Missing the point.

Why would the LI in question ever talk to you about their love life?
At all? Remember - you are a stranger.

You don't just start unloading your lifes woes on everyone you meet, do you?

Either the LI is a short cameo - in which chase he/she has no reason to tell you anything.
OR
They stick around for a long time, in which case them mentioning something might actually make sense. But in which case a lot of time and zots have to be wasted on that.

So no.

There really is no need for LI to appear in small cameos unless it is tied to the wider main plot. Ie the Warden/Hawke disappearing is a major issue and their LI's content if present should reflect their concern at their continuing uncerainty about their fate.

Modifié par wright1978, 26 octobre 2012 - 11:03 .

[HereticDante]

I don't see why they can't retain the save import and DA3 still be a stand alone installment. The two aren't mutually exclusive. DA2 for instance was a solid self contained story in of itself but still managed to make hundreds of subtle references to past decisions in Origins. Also removing the import or it's hypothetical equivalent would certainly reduce the sense that you're decisions have an impact on the world which would seem to run counter to everything bioware has previously designed the series around in terms of quest structure and decision making within the confines of the story.

Modifié par HereticDante, 26 octobre 2012 - 10:28 .

[draken-heart]

HereticDante wrote...

I don't see why they can't retain the save import and DA3 still be a stand alone installment. The two aren't mutually exclusive. DA2 for instance was a solid self contained story in of itself but still managed to make hundreds of subtle references to past decisions in Origins. Also removing the import or it's hypothetical equivalent would certainly reduce the sense that you're decisions have an impact on the world which would seem to run counter to everything bioware has previously designed the series around in terms of quest structure and decision making within the confines of the story.

the main thing these people are saying is save imports is that it binds the hands of the writers. These thing could easily be negated if Bioware had more time to develop the games. Setting in a release date confines them more than having save imports ever could.

In case peopel do not get it, Bioware cripples itself by setting a release date. IF BW did what Blizzard did, tell people it will be out when it's ready, then maybe they could have both.

Modifié par draken-heart, 26 octobre 2012 - 10:55 .

[marshalleck]

draken-heart wrote...

HereticDante wrote...

I don't see why they can't retain the save import and DA3 still be a stand alone installment. The two aren't mutually exclusive. DA2 for instance was a solid self contained story in of itself but still managed to make hundreds of subtle references to past decisions in Origins. Also removing the import or it's hypothetical equivalent would certainly reduce the sense that you're decisions have an impact on the world which would seem to run counter to everything bioware has previously designed the series around in terms of quest structure and decision making within the confines of the story.

the main thing these people are saying is save imports is that it binds the hands of the writers. These thing could easily be negated if Bioware had more time to develop the games. Setting in a release date confines them more than having save imports ever could.

No, I think you're still just not understanding what people are saying. 

Major character has two possible states:
1) dead
2) alive

Given said character could be dead in half of people's games, Bioware are forced to make that character have only peripheral presence in any subsequent titles, because they cannot spend a lot of development time writing, scripting, and animating scenes for a character which a large portion of the playerbase won't see. One small cameo they have time for; more than that, they do not. Setting a release date forward or back from a certain point will do nothing to resolve the dilemna, because development is a function of time and money, both of which would be put to use on content many players may never see. The character is still dead in half of people's games. This is how "save imports" are binding their hands and forcing them to restrict characters and events of seemingly significant import to codex entries and brief cameos. Or they push out a retcon, as in the case of Leliana, and then the much lauded save import function has been rendered moot. 

This has been explained to you much more thoroughly and effectively already by other people, but it seems it needs to be said again. 

Modifié par marshalleck, 26 octobre 2012 - 11:03 .

[draken-heart]

marshalleck wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

HereticDante wrote...

I don't see why they can't retain the save import and DA3 still be a stand alone installment. The two aren't mutually exclusive. DA2 for instance was a solid self contained story in of itself but still managed to make hundreds of subtle references to past decisions in Origins. Also removing the import or it's hypothetical equivalent would certainly reduce the sense that you're decisions have an impact on the world which would seem to run counter to everything bioware has previously designed the series around in terms of quest structure and decision making within the confines of the story.

the main thing these people are saying is save imports is that it binds the hands of the writers. These thing could easily be negated if Bioware had more time to develop the games. Setting in a release date confines them more than having save imports ever could.

No, I think you're still just not understanding what people are saying. 

Major character has two possible states:
1) dead
2) alive

Given said character could be dead in half of people's games, Bioware are forced to make that character have only peripheral presence in any subsequent titles, because they cannot spend a lot of development time writing, scripting, and animating scenes for a character which a large portion of the playerbase won't see. One small cameo they have time for; more than that, they do not. Setting a release date forward or back from a certain point will do nothing to resolve the dilemna, because development is a function of time and money, both of which would be put to use on content many players may never see. This is how "save imports" are binding their hands and forcing them to restrict characters and events of seemingly significant import to codex entries and brief cameos. 

This has been explained to you much more thoroughly and effectively already by other people, but it seems it needs to be said again. 

Development time is the key word I am talking about. Removing Save imports would do the same thing as just saying when it's ready would: give them time to work on the game.

I am talking about not setting a specified date at all, and release it when the game is done.

In other words, you guys say bind their hands, I read "If they did not have save imports, they would have more time to develop the game right."

Modifié par draken-heart, 26 octobre 2012 - 11:03 .

[marshalleck]

draken-heart wrote...

Development time is the key word I am talking about. Removing Save imports would do the same thing as just saying when it's ready would: give them time to work on the game.

I am talking about not setting a specified date at all, and release it when the game is done.

In other words, you guys say bind their hands, I read "If they did not have save imports, they would have more time to develop the game right."

Facepalming here. No, that's not the argument we're making at all. It doesn't matter how much time or money they have; Bioware have to date been unwilling to do more than write cameos and codex entries for characters and events stuck in save import limbo. One notable exception is Leliana, whom they were willing to retcon. So in that case, the save imports were overruled and continuity was broken. If they're just going to ignore imports when it suits them anyways, why not remove ALL of it and then deliver more spectacular and divergent consequences in each individual game rather than leaving all these threads dangling, and eventually left unresolved due to their mutually exclusive states. 

Modifié par marshalleck, 26 octobre 2012 - 11:10 .

[draken-heart]

marshalleck wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

Development time is the key word I am talking about. Removing Save imports would do the same thing as just saying when it's ready would: give them time to work on the game.

I am talking about not setting a specified date at all, and release it when the game is done.

In other words, you guys say bind their hands, I read "If they did not have save imports, they would have more time to develop the game right."

Facepalming here. No, that's not the argument we're making at all. 

Games are a product of how much time and money are put into it. Bioware sets a release date for the game. This forces Bioware into a conundrum: do they make a good game or get it out on time. this is true for games without save imports, they may be better, but if they are not ready when the release date approaches then they are forced to rush it, likely causing another DA2.

[marshalleck]

I can't tell if you're being this daft on purpose to troll the thread, or it just comes naturally to you. Congratulations, you've fooled me. I think I'm done here, this is pointless.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Money is a limited commondity. and moeny is used to pay for the develoeprs time. So time is a limited commondity.

Draken-heart, you are serisously out of touch with realtiy if your stance is that the developers should just work on a game untill they make a "perefect" game.

[draken-heart]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Money is a limited commondity. and moeny is used to pay for the develoeprs time. So time is a limited commondity.

Draken-heart, you are serisously out of touch with realtiy if your stance is that the developers should just work on a game untill they make a "perefect" game.

It is either add save imports to allow for player choice from past games to be presented in this game , or force players into a specified canon for the sake of a stronger story.

Either way you are losing something and gaining something else. By removing save imports from the game, you are basically saying that player choice does not matter, it would make for a stronger story to not add any choice and force players into a linear story.

inother words my stance is bioware shoud do what it wants, not listen to us players.

Modifié par draken-heart, 26 octobre 2012 - 11:23 .

[toddx77]

I love the idea of importing saves as it not only makes Bioware games unique but gives me a broader sense of continuity. Making a custom character and having their choices carry over the next game not only makes the game more interesting but great for replay value as well. DA3 needs to have an import feature because it is obviously going to focus on the templar mage problem that the second game created and I feel we need more closure with our Wardens and Hawke. However I wouldn't mind of DA4 was a few hundred years later during the next blight so that way the import feature could start over.

[draken-heart]

There is also the timing of the release of the game itself and the next-gen consoles. PC players would have no problem, but for us console players this is a big thing to deal with.

[marshalleck]

toddx77 wrote...

I love the idea of importing saves as it not only makes Bioware games unique but gives me a broader sense of continuity. Making a custom character and having their choices carry over the next game not only makes the game more interesting but great for replay value as well. DA3 needs to have an import feature because it is obviously going to focus on the templar mage problem that the second game created and I feel we need more closure with our Wardens and Hawke. However I wouldn't mind of DA4 was a few hundred years later during the next blight so that way the import feature could start over.

This is all true...as long as you make the decisions Bioware wants you to make. 

Yoru continuity is thrown out the window if you say, for example, kill Leliana or sympathize with Cerberus.

Modifié par marshalleck, 26 octobre 2012 - 11:47 .

[draken-heart]

marshalleck wrote...

toddx77 wrote...

I love the idea of importing saves as it not only makes Bioware games unique but gives me a broader sense of continuity. Making a custom character and having their choices carry over the next game not only makes the game more interesting but great for replay value as well. DA3 needs to have an import feature because it is obviously going to focus on the templar mage problem that the second game created and I feel we need more closure with our Wardens and Hawke. However I wouldn't mind of DA4 was a few hundred years later during the next blight so that way the import feature could start over.

This is all true...as long as you make the decisions Bioware wants you to make. 

Yoru continuity is thrown out the window if you say, for example, kill Leliana or sympathize with Cerberus.

to be honest about that cerberus thing, They did go plum loco, and there were tons of people who fled thos guys...I'd be surprised if they did allow Shepard to sympathize with them in three.

Modifié par draken-heart, 26 octobre 2012 - 11:49 .

[Genshie]

Draken-heart you know there are games out there with choices that don't really come into conflict with the following title right when they don't have imports. The one that I can think of off the top of my head is Infamous 1 and 2. Man I loved both of those games.

[marshalleck]

draken-heart wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

toddx77 wrote...

I love the idea of importing saves as it not only makes Bioware games unique but gives me a broader sense of continuity. Making a custom character and having their choices carry over the next game not only makes the game more interesting but great for replay value as well. DA3 needs to have an import feature because it is obviously going to focus on the templar mage problem that the second game created and I feel we need more closure with our Wardens and Hawke. However I wouldn't mind of DA4 was a few hundred years later during the next blight so that way the import feature could start over.

This is all true...as long as you make the decisions Bioware wants you to make. 

Yoru continuity is thrown out the window if you say, for example, kill Leliana or sympathize with Cerberus.

to be honest about that cerberus thing, They did go plum loco, and there were tons of people who fled thos guys...I'd be surprised if they did allow Shepard to sympathize with them in three.

I'm not going to rehash the Cerberus thing because I (and everyone else) am sick of talking about it. I will say that if Bioware are unwilling to commit to following through on choices they've offered--in a substantial way--then I would prefer they either not offer them at all, or resolve them completely within each title and don't carry them forward.

Modifié par marshalleck, 26 octobre 2012 - 12:01 .

[draken-heart]

marshalleck wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

toddx77 wrote...

I love the idea of importing saves as it not only makes Bioware games unique but gives me a broader sense of continuity. Making a custom character and having their choices carry over the next game not only makes the game more interesting but great for replay value as well. DA3 needs to have an import feature because it is obviously going to focus on the templar mage problem that the second game created and I feel we need more closure with our Wardens and Hawke. However I wouldn't mind of DA4 was a few hundred years later during the next blight so that way the import feature could start over.

This is all true...as long as you make the decisions Bioware wants you to make. 

Yoru continuity is thrown out the window if you say, for example, kill Leliana or sympathize with Cerberus.

to be honest about that cerberus thing, They did go plum loco, and there were tons of people who fled thos guys...I'd be surprised if they did allow Shepard to sympathize with them in three.

I'm not going to rehash the Cerberus thing because I (and everyone else) am sick of talking about it. I will say that if Bioware are unwilling to commit to following through on choices they've offered--in a substantial way--then I would prefer they either not offer them at all, or resolve them completely within each title and don't carry them forward.

then tell them to hold it back and release it for next-gen consoles, that way you would not have to worry about the save-file transfer system.

and have you read anything I posted about the fact that maybe Bioware developed it the way it turned out, instead of failing to do them properly, then lied to get you all into the game?

Modifié par draken-heart, 26 octobre 2012 - 12:05 .

[toddx77]

marshalleck wrote...

toddx77 wrote...

I love the idea of importing saves as it not only makes Bioware games unique but gives me a broader sense of continuity. Making a custom character and having their choices carry over the next game not only makes the game more interesting but great for replay value as well. DA3 needs to have an import feature because it is obviously going to focus on the templar mage problem that the second game created and I feel we need more closure with our Wardens and Hawke. However I wouldn't mind of DA4 was a few hundred years later during the next blight so that way the import feature could start over.

This is all true...as long as you make the decisions Bioware wants you to make. 

Yoru continuity is thrown out the window if you say, for example, kill Leliana or sympathize with Cerberus.

You forgot to mention the human reaper being in the Illusive Man's base even if you destoryed the collector base lol.   Anyway your right that is a problem and to solve it I would say just make all characters join you.  As for situations like Liliana being in DA2 even if you killed her or didn't recruit than I would say bioware should plan ahead of time if a said character is going to be inportant or used again and not give you the option if killing them.  Just like how if you killed Zevran in origins he did not appear in DA2.  

Stuff like this though isn't new.  In Final Fantasy VII you don't have to recruit Vincent or Yufi but they are in basically every Final Fantasy VII medium.  You could never recruit Vincent but play Dirge of Cerberus or watch Advent Children and be like "he was never in the game whats going on?"

[draken-heart]

BIOWARE CHOSE TO HAVE IMPORTS THEY WAY THEY WERE AND LIED TO ALL SO YOU ALL WOULD BE MAD AT THEM!!!!!

[Fast Jimmy]

BIOWARE CHOSE TO HAVE IMPORTS THEY WAY THEY WERE AND LIED TO ALL SO YOU ALL WOULD BE MAD AT THEM!!!!!

No.

Not the case. A feature they didn't really think thorough and consider? Absolutely. But a feature that was a blatant, out-and-out lie? No. That's now what happened.

They had the technology to create save files that could have flags to be picked up. They Pinot in Origins. People loved it, so they said 'why not put this same technology in ME as well? It's got lots of choices too, people will love for then to carry forward.' Then... they started developing the sequels to these games and realized 'oh, crap, how are we going to even do this?'

You're seeing this with the Kikcstarter Project Eternity. They reviewed millions of dollars from fans and, as they kept meeting more and more stretch goals, they promised more and more features. Now, they are starting to scratch their heads about how they are going to pull it all off with their shoe string budget.

Regardless, the reason that 'the game just needs more development time to properly acknowledge imports' is NOT what anyone is advocating.

In DA2, at the end, you had the choice of letting Anders live or murder knifing him. And the choice will be imported forward. But, regardless, it means that Anders will not play a part in the story ever again.

Why? Because if Anders is dead in half of the people's games, then Bioware isn't going to invest resources making him, say, part of the Mage Rebellion (where he would belong, logically). He won't be fighting for Mage freedom (or, if he is, it will be off in a far, distant land, away from the main conflict, where we (the Inquisitor) will be.

Wouldn't it be better, make more sense and tell the most logical story for Anders to be on the front lines, fighting for Mage freedom, since that's what he spent ALL of DA2 talking about? But he won't. Because half of other players have him dead. And Bioware isn't going to create tons of dialogue, cutscenes and integration into the main story for only a portion of the players to see.

That's just one example. And it invalidates the choice, since it you spare Anders so he doesn't die and you can see him again in DA3, then you will be disappointed. Give the numbe of DA2 fans who loved Anders, this will be a victory for my argument (but a defeat for me as a fan of story) because then it will finally hit DA2 fans (who most cannot see any fault with the import mechanic) in a place that hurts.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 26 octobre 2012 - 01:08 .

[draken-heart]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

BIOWARE CHOSE TO HAVE IMPORTS THEY WAY THEY WERE AND LIED TO ALL SO YOU ALL WOULD BE MAD AT THEM!!!!!

No.

Not the case. A feature they didn't really think thorough and consider? Absolutely. But a feature that was a blatant, out-and-out lie? No. That's now what happened.

They had the technology to create save files that could have flags to be picked up. They Pinot in Origins. People loved it, so they said 'why not put this same technology in ME as well? It's got lots of choices too, people will love for then to carry forward.' Then... they started developing the sequels to these games and realized 'oh, crap, how are we going to even do this?'

You're seeing this with the Kikcstarter Project Eternity. They reviewed millions of dollars from fans and, as they kept meeting more and more stretch goals, they promised more and more features. Now, they are starting to scratch their heads about how they are going to pull it all off with their shoe string budget.

Regardless, the reason that 'the game just needs more development time to properly acknowledge imports' is NOT what anyone is advocating.

In DA2, at the end, you had the choice of letting Anders live or murder knifing him. And the choice will be imported forward. But, regardless, it means that Anders will not play a part in the story ever again.

Why? Because if Anders is dead in half of the people's games, then Bioware isn't going to invest resources making him, say, part of the Mage Rebellion (where he would belong, logically). He won't be fighting for Mage freedom (or, if he is, it will be off in a far, distant land, away from the main conflict, where we (the Inquisitor) will be.

Wouldn't it be better, make more sense and tell the most logical story for Anders to be on the front lines, fighting for Mage freedom, since that's what he spent ALL of DA2 talking about? But he won't. Because half of other players have him dead. And Bioware isn't going to create tons of dialogue, cutscenes and integration into the main story for only a portion of the players to see.

That's just one example. And it invalidates the choice, since it you spare Anders so he doesn't die and you can see him again in DA3, then you will be disappointed. Give the numbe of DA2 fans who loved Anders, this will be a victory for my argument (but a defeat for me as a fan of story) because then it will finally hit DA2 fans (who most cannot see any fault with the import mechanic) in a place that hurts.

Then they chose to "try their best" or as I would say "chose to put a bad feature in on purpose to give players the illusion that their choices matter."

Modifié par draken-heart, 26 octobre 2012 - 01:21 .

[Eludajae]

Well I would like to think all I did as Hawke has lasting meaning. I like how you can influence the game slightly with the history you chose. It was nice having my Wardens deeds influence Hawke, so I would like the same to be true of Hawke, but honestly that isn't a requirement at all. Sometimes a clean slate is best.

[draken-heart]

Eludajae wrote...

Well I would like to think all I did as Hawke has lasting meaning. I like how you can influence the game slightly with the history you chose. It was nice having my Wardens deeds influence Hawke, so I would like the same to be true of Hawke, but honestly that isn't a requirement at all. Sometimes a clean slate is best.

what if they chose to not put Kirkwall into the game? then everything Hawke did except for being their when the events happened would be meaningless.

Best to not have a canon bcause it forces players to ignore their own choices for the sake of a "stronger story."