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[Fast Jimmy]

Because I have had discussions with Mike Laidlaw, David Gaider, Allan Schumacher and former Bioware employees Stanley Woo and Brent Knowles about it, both on these boards and elsewhere. I I have seen comments from Drew Karpyshyn, head writer for ME1 and 2, as well.

If you think there is some wide-reaching conspiracy about the import flags that results in tons of extra work for the developer team, causes people to bash the games (people were bashing the import feature even back when ME2 and Awakenings came out, let alone DA2 and ME3) and would, essentially, require ex-employees to lie about what really happened when working for the company (when they are frank, upfront and brutally honest with other negative aspects of the design culture), then I think you just want to make it sound like there is more going on than there really is.

People love to cry out "conspiracy!" When, in reality, more oftentimes than not, the bad things that occur in an organization are often the result of poor planning and implementation, not some veiled sense of malice or secret plan to reel you in and then deceive you.

[draken-heart]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Because I have had discussions with Mike Laidlaw, David Gaider, Allan Schumacher and former Bioware employees Stanley Woo and Brent Knowles about it, both on these boards and elsewhere. I I have seen comments from Drew Karpyshyn, head writer for ME1 and 2, as well.

If you think there is some wide-reaching conspiracy about the import flags that results in tons of extra work for the developer team, causes people to bash the games (people were bashing the import feature even back when ME2 and Awakenings came out, let alone DA2 and ME3) and would, essentially, require ex-employees to lie about what really happened when working for the company (when they are frank, upfront and brutally honest with other negative aspects of the design culture), then I think you just want to make it sound like there is more going on than there really is.

People love to cry out "conspiracy!" When, in reality, more oftentimes than not, the bad things that occur in an organization are often the result of poor planning and implementation, not some veiled sense of malice or secret plan to reel you in and then deceive you.

they could be lying to you to keep their secret safe...you trust these guys that much that you would believe anything they say, but do not trust them to do a game that is both enjoyable and has save import? wierd.

[Fast Jimmy]

draken-heart wrote...

Eludajae wrote...

Well I would like to think all I did as Hawke has lasting meaning. I like how you can influence the game slightly with the history you chose. It was nice having my Wardens deeds influence Hawke, so I would like the same to be true of Hawke, but honestly that isn't a requirement at all. Sometimes a clean slate is best.

what if they chose to not put Kirkwall into the game? then everything Hawke did except for being their when the events happened would be meaningless.

Best to not have a canon bcause it forces players to ignore their own choices for the sake of a "stronger story."

If you can't tell in a future game if they set a canon or not unless they tell you, then what does it matter?

By avoiding Kirkwall, any mention of Hawke, Hawke's companions or anything that was ever done in DA2... what's the difference between that and setting a canon that may never get mentioned? None at all. That seems pretty stupid. I paid $60 and invested nearly a hundred hours into DA2... and you're telling me it is best if nothing that was ever done in that game should matter?

I'm starting to think you're making the argument for removing save imports/choices into future games super easy to poke holes in on purpose.

[Seboist]

Importing should only be for things like carrying over character levels and bonus items. BW's handling of them in DA2 and the ME sequels is a joke that isn't worth the effort and is just a big negative.

[draken-heart]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

Eludajae wrote...

Well I would like to think all I did as Hawke has lasting meaning. I like how you can influence the game slightly with the history you chose. It was nice having my Wardens deeds influence Hawke, so I would like the same to be true of Hawke, but honestly that isn't a requirement at all. Sometimes a clean slate is best.

what if they chose to not put Kirkwall into the game? then everything Hawke did except for being their when the events happened would be meaningless.

Best to not have a canon bcause it forces players to ignore their own choices for the sake of a "stronger story."

If you can't tell in a future game if they set a canon or not unless they tell you, then what does it matter?

By avoiding Kirkwall, any mention of Hawke, Hawke's companions or anything that was ever done in DA2... what's the difference between that and setting a canon that may never get mentioned? None at all. That seems pretty stupid. I paid $60 and invested nearly a hundred hours into DA2... and you're telling me it is best if nothing that was ever done in that game should matter?

I'm starting to think you're making the argument for removing save imports/choices into future games super easy to poke holes in on purpose.

if the game is not enjoyable, the it won't matter how strong the story is. At least, not to me. Strong story is not the only thing to a game, y'know.

[Fast Jimmy]

draken-heart wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Because I have had discussions with Mike Laidlaw, David Gaider, Allan Schumacher and former Bioware employees Stanley Woo and Brent Knowles about it, both on these boards and elsewhere. I I have seen comments from Drew Karpyshyn, head writer for ME1 and 2, as well.

If you think there is some wide-reaching conspiracy about the import flags that results in tons of extra work for the developer team, causes people to bash the games (people were bashing the import feature even back when ME2 and Awakenings came out, let alone DA2 and ME3) and would, essentially, require ex-employees to lie about what really happened when working for the company (when they are frank, upfront and brutally honest with other negative aspects of the design culture), then I think you just want to make it sound like there is more going on than there really is.

People love to cry out "conspiracy!" When, in reality, more oftentimes than not, the bad things that occur in an organization are often the result of poor planning and implementation, not some veiled sense of malice or secret plan to reel you in and then deceive you.

they could be lying to you to keep their secret safe...you trust these guys that much that you would believe anything they say, but do not trust them to do a game that is both enjoyable and has save import? wierd.

I don't trust anything they say implicitly, but its just a simple matter of consistency. What does it benefit Brent Knowles, someone not tied to Bioware at all anymore, to lie about something to make his old employer look good, especially when he has no problem painting them in a negative light about other things? What does it benefit Stan? Or Drew? Why keep that facade up?

And "trust" isn't what keeps the teams at Bioware from making the save import feature beneficial to their games. Its a fundamental design flaw. Choices make the world different. Whether that world is a different Warden Origin, a different monarch on the throne, a clan being alive or wiped out, a companion being romanced or not... these are all different worlds. The import feature creates those different worlds in gamers minds, but Bioware cannot, physically, create a game to match all of the worlds they have given the chance to create.

If you give me a dozen choices, that's 24 different ways (if not more, this is assuming every choce is "Yes/No", "Black/White") that things could play out. A dozen isn't that many... I'd say you get that before Orzammar is done in DA:O. 

For many choices, you can just ignore them. If I fed the prisoner at Ostagar, or stabbed him for his treasure, or left him alone in the cage... that's not going to play out into the story at large. But choices that DO affect the world or DO affect characters we are likely to see later in the series... the import flags can never live up to them. They can never have a world with an Anvil and one with not (I didn't get a chance to rebut your suggestion earlier about how "Caridin's work couldn't be replicated" but we know that's not true... we get an army of golems to fight against the Archdemon.") without making it seem like the choice, either way, didn't matter. You can't have a world with the Urn preserved and defiled without making it seem like the choice didn't matter. You can't have a world where the Hawke was female and in a relationship with Fenris or male and in a relationship with Anders (well, you TOTALLY could, but I'm throwing you an LI bone here, since that's your particular piece of pie). 

I trust the Bioware team to make good games. But I don't want them making their games today, in 2012, thinking about how they can't do this or that in the story, because it might be then hard to make a game in 2015... a game which may or may not even happen. That's stupid. I also would like Bioware to be able to use these great story ideas that had built back in 2008 and not worry about what choices players made back in 2008 and tie their hands in 2012.

Trust isn't the issue. Recognizing a broken design choice is.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 26 octobre 2012 - 01:53 .

[draken-heart]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Because I have had discussions with Mike Laidlaw, David Gaider, Allan Schumacher and former Bioware employees Stanley Woo and Brent Knowles about it, both on these boards and elsewhere. I I have seen comments from Drew Karpyshyn, head writer for ME1 and 2, as well.

If you think there is some wide-reaching conspiracy about the import flags that results in tons of extra work for the developer team, causes people to bash the games (people were bashing the import feature even back when ME2 and Awakenings came out, let alone DA2 and ME3) and would, essentially, require ex-employees to lie about what really happened when working for the company (when they are frank, upfront and brutally honest with other negative aspects of the design culture), then I think you just want to make it sound like there is more going on than there really is.

People love to cry out "conspiracy!" When, in reality, more oftentimes than not, the bad things that occur in an organization are often the result of poor planning and implementation, not some veiled sense of malice or secret plan to reel you in and then deceive you.

they could be lying to you to keep their secret safe...you trust these guys that much that you would believe anything they say, but do not trust them to do a game that is both enjoyable and has save import? wierd.

I don't trust anything they say implicitly, but its just a simple matter of consistency. What does it benefit Brent Knowles, someone not tied to Bioware at all anymore, to lie about something to make his old employer, especially when he has no problem painting them in a negative light about other things? What does it benefit Stan? Or Drew? Why keep that facade up?

And "trust" isn't what keeps the teams at Bioware from making the save import feature beneficial to their games. Its a fundamental design flaw. Choices make the world different. Whether that world is a different Warden Origin, a different monarch on the throne, a clan being alive or wiped out, a companion being romanced or not... these are all different worlds. The import feature creates those different worlds in gamers minds, but Bioware cannot, physically, create a game to match all of the worlds they have given the chance to create.

If you give me a dozen choices, that's 24 different ways (if not more, this is assuming every choce is "Yes/No", "Black/White") that things could play out. A dozen isn't that many... I'd say you get that before Orzammar is done in DA:O. 

For many choices, you can just ignore them. If I fed the prisoner at Ostagar, or stabbed him for his treasure, or left him alone in the cage... that's not going to play out into the story at large. But choices that DO affect the world or DO affect characters we are likely to see later in the series... the import flags can never live up to them. They can never have a world with an Anvil and one with not (I didn't get a chance to rebut your suggestion earlier about how "Caridin's work couldn't be replicated" but we know that's not true... we get an army of golems to fight against the Archdemon.") without making it seem like the choice, either way, didn't matter. You can't have a world with the Urn preserved and defiled without making it seem like the choice didn't matter. You can't have a world where the Hawke was female and in a relationship with Fenris or male and in a relationship with Anders (well, you TOTALLY could, but I'm throwing you an LI bone here, since that's your particular piece of pie). 

I trust the Bioware team to make good games. But I don't want them making their games today, in 2012, thinking about how they can't do this or that in the story, because it might be then hard to make a game in 2015... a game which may or may not even happen. That's stupid. I also would like Bioware to be able to use these great story ideas that had built back in 2008 and not worry about what choices players made back in 2008 and tie their hands in 2012.

Trust isn't the issue. Recognizing a broken design choice is.

For me the issue would not be with Imports, but enjoyability. IF I do not enjoy a game, it will not matter if the game has a strong story, because I cannot get into the game.

Enjoyability>story strength

Let's take Deus ex Human Revolution, that game has a strong story, but I could not get into it, so after beating it once, I gave up. I could not enjoy it, so the strong story it had meant nothing to me.

Modifié par draken-heart, 26 octobre 2012 - 01:54 .

[SpunkyMonkey]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Because I have had discussions with Mike Laidlaw, David Gaider, Allan Schumacher and former Bioware employees Stanley Woo and Brent Knowles about it, both on these boards and elsewhere. I I have seen comments from Drew Karpyshyn, head writer for ME1 and 2, as well.

If you think there is some wide-reaching conspiracy about the import flags that results in tons of extra work for the developer team, causes people to bash the games (people were bashing the import feature even back when ME2 and Awakenings came out, let alone DA2 and ME3) and would, essentially, require ex-employees to lie about what really happened when working for the company (when they are frank, upfront and brutally honest with other negative aspects of the design culture), then I think you just want to make it sound like there is more going on than there really is.

People love to cry out "conspiracy!" When, in reality, more oftentimes than not, the bad things that occur in an organization are often the result of poor planning and implementation, not some veiled sense of malice or secret plan to reel you in and then deceive you.

they could be lying to you to keep their secret safe...you trust these guys that much that you would believe anything they say, but do not trust them to do a game that is both enjoyable and has save import? wierd.

I don't trust anything they say implicitly, but its just a simple matter of consistency. What does it benefit Brent Knowles, someone not tied to Bioware at all anymore, to lie about something to make his old employer, especially when he has no problem painting them in a negative light about other things? What does it benefit Stan? Or Drew? Why keep that facade up?

And "trust" isn't what keeps the teams at Bioware from making the save import feature beneficial to their games. Its a fundamental design flaw. Choices make the world different. Whether that world is a different Warden Origin, a different monarch on the throne, a clan being alive or wiped out, a companion being romanced or not... these are all different worlds. The import feature creates those different worlds in gamers minds, but Bioware cannot, physically, create a game to match all of the worlds they have given the chance to create.

If you give me a dozen choices, that's 24 different ways (if not more, this is assuming every choce is "Yes/No", "Black/White") that things could play out. A dozen isn't that many... I'd say you get that before Orzammar is done in DA:O. 

For many choices, you can just ignore them. If I fed the prisoner at Ostagar, or stabbed him for his treasure, or left him alone in the cage... that's not going to play out into the story at large. But choices that DO affect the world or DO affect characters we are likely to see later in the series... the import flags can never live up to them. They can never have a world with an Anvil and one with not (I didn't get a chance to rebut your suggestion earlier about how "Caridin's work couldn't be replicated" but we know that's not true... we get an army of golems to fight against the Archdemon.") without making it seem like the choice, either way, didn't matter. You can't have a world with the Urn preserved and defiled without making it seem like the choice didn't matter. You can't have a world where the Hawke was female and in a relationship with Fenris or male and in a relationship with Anders (well, you TOTALLY could, but I'm throwing you an LI bone here, since that's your particular piece of pie). 

I trust the Bioware team to make good games. But I don't want them making their games today, in 2012, thinking about how they can't do this or that in the story, because it might be then hard to make a game in 2015... a game which may or may not even happen. That's stupid. I also would like Bioware to be able to use these great story ideas that had built back in 2008 and not worry about what choices players made back in 2008 and tie their hands in 2012.

Trust isn't the issue. Recognizing a broken design choice is.

Top post.

[draken-heart]

In case you did not get what I said fast Jimmy, It is not about how to make the story stronger to me, it is how do you make the game more enjoyable, to get me to replay it over and over.

If I get bored of the game after one play through, story strength is not going to fix my belief that the game failed to make me enjoy it, because it did fail in that regard.

[Fast Jimmy]

draken-heart wrote...

For me the issue would not be with Imports, but enjoyability. IF I do not enjoy a game, it will not matter if the game has a strong story, because I cannot get into the game.

Enjoyability>story strength

Let's take Deus ex Human Revolution, that game has a strong story, but I could not get into it, so after beating it once, I gave up. I could not enjoy it, to the strong story it had meant nothing to me.

So you're saying the only way for you to rail against the import system is if it treated your LIs bad.

Gotcha. That's fine. That's something I can understand - that you, no matter how lore breaking or inconsequential anything else is, as long as Bioware treats their romances as their top concern in narrative consistency, you will be fine. And, since that's easy to do with cameos and codex-entries, you will never be disappointed. So there you go.

And I can understand you not liking DE:HR, but the story is VERY weak. There is no branching plots, there is no deep characters, there are no companions or NPCs that you can interact with any meaningful purpose.

Also, you can't romance anyone, so I imagine you wouldn't like it.

[draken-heart]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

For me the issue would not be with Imports, but enjoyability. IF I do not enjoy a game, it will not matter if the game has a strong story, because I cannot get into the game.

Enjoyability>story strength

Let's take Deus ex Human Revolution, that game has a strong story, but I could not get into it, so after beating it once, I gave up. I could not enjoy it, to the strong story it had meant nothing to me.

So you're saying the only way for you to rail against the import system is if it treated your LIs bad.

Gotcha. That's fine. That's something I can understand - that you, no matter how lore breaking or inconsequential anything else is, as long as Bioware treats their romances as their top concern in narrative consistency, you will be fine. And, since that's easy to do with cameos and codex-entries, you will never be disappointed. So there you go.

And I can understand you not liking DE:HR, but the story is VERY weak. There is no branching plots, there is no deep characters, there are no companions or NPCs that you can interact with any meaningful purpose.

Also, you can't romance anyone, so I imagine you wouldn't like it.

no, I am saying that it has to make me not enjoy the game for me to say "remove it".

I thought the main concept of DX:HR was great, I just could not get into it. guess I am just wierd that wat.

Modifié par draken-heart, 26 octobre 2012 - 02:07 .

[Fast Jimmy]

draken-heart wrote...

no, I am saying that it has to make me not enjoy the game for me to say "remove it".

I thought the main concept of DX:HR was great, Ijust could not get into it.

Sorry, I was just gathering from your prior posts that the only previous choice that could be imported that would make you not enjoy a future game would be LI/romance ones. I guess I would need to see a choice you made in DA:O or DA2 that, if handled poorly by the import mechanic, would lower the enjoyability rate of the game... aside from romance choices.

If that's the only thing you care about, then you are right - the import choices will never really fail you, since they are the easiest to reference (especially with a new PC every game). All they have to do is never show or mention your Warden/Hawke again, at all, or any past romanceable characters. Easy-piecey. draken-heart never has her romance choices mucked with, its all smooth sailing.

[LilyasAvalon]

I think these 'abandon save imports' threads keep coming up because people are tired of the lack of consistancy of their choices in previous games. Personally, I do want to see my choices matter, and for characters I came to love make a cameo.

[draken-heart]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

no, I am saying that it has to make me not enjoy the game for me to say "remove it".

I thought the main concept of DX:HR was great, Ijust could not get into it.

Sorry, I was just gathering from your prior posts that the only previous choice that could be imported that would make you not enjoy a future game would be LI/romance ones. I guess I would need to see a choice you made in DA:O or DA2 that, if handled poorly by the import mechanic, would lower the enjoyability rate of the game... aside from romance choices.

If that's the only thing you care about, then you are right - the import choices will never really fail you, since they are the easiest to reference (especially with a new PC every game). All they have to do is never show or mention your Warden/Hawke again, at all, or any past romanceable characters. Easy-piecey. draken-heart never has her romance choices mucked with, its all smooth sailing.

I am a guy by the way, who just so happens to Like having romances in a Bioware game. the Avatar is ME3's Samantha Traynor, Female Shepard's exclusive Lesbian human romance option.

Modifié par draken-heart, 26 octobre 2012 - 02:15 .

[In Exile]

LilyasAvalon wrote...

I think these 'abandon save imports' threads keep coming up because people are tired of the lack of consistancy of their choices in previous games. Personally, I do want to see my choices matter, and for characters I came to love make a cameo.

That would be nice... but like Jimmy says, design-wise this is a nightmare. TW2 hit on a great formula - which is that the player can't actually win/change the great political pushes of the era - but that only works when you want to disempower the protagonist.

Which DA2 was well on its way to do... but they screwed up the end and start, and had too much going on in their plot.

Modifié par In Exile, 26 octobre 2012 - 02:16 .

[jillabender]

Fast Jimmy wrote…

I trust the Bioware team to make good games. But I don't want them making their games today, in 2012, thinking about how they can't do this or that in the story, because it might be then hard to make a game in 2015... a game which may or may not even happen. That's stupid. I also would like Bioware to be able to use these great story ideas that had built back in 2008 and not worry about what choices players made back in 2008 and tie their hands in 2012.

Well said – that's essentially my position as well.

[Fast Jimmy]

draken-heart wrote...

I am a guy by the way, who just so happens to Like having romances in a Bioware game. the Avatar is ME3's Samantha Traynor, Female Shepard's exclusive Lesbian human romance option.

Ah, my apologies. An old forum habit of looking at the avatar and imagine that avatar is the one talking. I did not mean to imply any inherent feminity by virtue of the fact of caring about LI's more than the story.

But again, I would pose the same question - what choice would Bioware have to mess up, besides who you romanced, that would cause you to say "oh, man, these import choices are not worth the time of day." If its just LI concerns, then I'd say you'd never need to worry at all, since those are incredibly easy to reference or ignore. Even if Bioware set a canon for the big choices, I could see them offering an interactive comic or choice mechanic before games to select things like this, things that need to not have any significant follow up.

So I'd say that no matter where the import decision argument winds up, Bioware will build contingencies in for their romance fans.

[draken-heart]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

I am a guy by the way, who just so happens to Like having romances in a Bioware game. the Avatar is ME3's Samantha Traynor, Female Shepard's exclusive Lesbian human romance option.

Ah, my apologies. An old forum habit of looking at the avatar and imagine that avatar is the one talking. I did not mean to imply any inherent feminity by virtue of the fact of caring about LI's more than the story.

But again, I would pose the same question - what choice would Bioware have to mess up, besides who you romanced, that would cause you to say "oh, man, these import choices are not worth the time of day." If its just LI concerns, then I'd say you'd never need to worry at all, since those are incredibly easy to reference or ignore. Even if Bioware set a canon for the big choices, I could see them offering an interactive comic or choice mechanic before games to select things like this, things that need to not have any significant follow up.

So I'd say that no matter where the import decision argument winds up, Bioware will build contingencies in for their romance fans.

I do not know, I just get this feeling of being bored of the game the first time through. so if i get bored the first PT, and there are imports, then likely they did the job of making the game not enjoyable.

Plus, unless who the warden was in terms of race/gender/origin was implied in the LI concerns comment, you kind of missed that part.

Modifié par draken-heart, 26 octobre 2012 - 02:40 .

[Fast Jimmy]

draken-heart wrote...

I do not know, I just get this feeling of being bored of the game the first time through. so if i get bored the first PT, and there are imports, then likely they did the job of making the game not enjoyable.

Wait... what game are you talking about here? DE:HR? Or a Bioware game?

[draken-heart]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

I do not know, I just get this feeling of being bored of the game the first time through. so if i get bored the first PT, and there are imports, then likely they did the job of making the game not enjoyable.

Wait... what game are you talking about here? DE:HR? Or a Bioware game?

Bioware, since this is about save imports.

[Fast Jimmy]

draken-heart wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

I do not know, I just get this feeling of being bored of the game the first time through. so if i get bored the first PT, and there are imports, then likely they did the job of making the game not enjoyable.

Wait... what game are you talking about here? DE:HR? Or a Bioware game?

Bioware, since this is about save imports.

So you got bored playing through the first time during a Bioware game like DA:O or DA2, but the concept of imports drove you to finish or even replay the game? Yes?

[draken-heart]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

I do not know, I just get this feeling of being bored of the game the first time through. so if i get bored the first PT, and there are imports, then likely they did the job of making the game not enjoyable.

Wait... what game are you talking about here? DE:HR? Or a Bioware game?

Bioware, since this is about save imports.

So you got bored playing through the first time during a Bioware game like DA:O or DA2, but the concept of imports drove you to finish or even replay the game? Yes?

No, I did not get bored playing a bioware game the first playthrough, If they had imports and I got bored on the first playthrough.

[Fast Jimmy]

draken-heart wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

I do not know, I just get this feeling of being bored of the game the first time through. so if i get bored the first PT, and there are imports, then likely they did the job of making the game not enjoyable.

Wait... what game are you talking about here? DE:HR? Or a Bioware game?

Bioware, since this is about save imports.

So you got bored playing through the first time during a Bioware game like DA:O or DA2, but the concept of imports drove you to finish or even replay the game? Yes?

No, I did not get bored playing a bioware game the first playthrough, If they had imports and I got bored on the first playthrough.

But they do have imports in Bioware games... so you don't get bored on the first playthrough...?

But you do get bored during the first playthrough of games that don't have imports...?

[AllThatJazz]

marshalleck wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

HereticDante wrote...

I don't see why they can't retain the save import and DA3 still be a stand alone installment. The two aren't mutually exclusive. DA2 for instance was a solid self contained story in of itself but still managed to make hundreds of subtle references to past decisions in Origins. Also removing the import or it's hypothetical equivalent would certainly reduce the sense that you're decisions have an impact on the world which would seem to run counter to everything bioware has previously designed the series around in terms of quest structure and decision making within the confines of the story.

the main thing these people are saying is save imports is that it binds the hands of the writers. These thing could easily be negated if Bioware had more time to develop the games. Setting in a release date confines them more than having save imports ever could.

No, I think you're still just not understanding what people are saying. 

Major character has two possible states:
1) dead
2) alive

Given said character could be dead in half of people's games, Bioware are forced to make that character have only peripheral presence in any subsequent titles, because they cannot spend a lot of development time writing, scripting, and animating scenes for a character which a large portion of the playerbase won't see. One small cameo they have time for; more than that, they do not. Setting a release date forward or back from a certain point will do nothing to resolve the dilemna, because development is a function of time and money, both of which would be put to use on content many players may never see. The character is still dead in half of people's games. This is how "save imports" are binding their hands and forcing them to restrict characters and events of seemingly significant import to codex entries and brief cameos. Or they push out a retcon, as in the case of Leliana, and then the much lauded save import function has been rendered moot. 

This has been explained to you much more thoroughly and effectively already by other people, but it seems it needs to be said again. 

*Warning some character spoilers for Mass Effect below*



Not necessarily true. Garrus and Tali could still be full-fledged companions (even with romance content) in ME3 even though they could be dead in ME2. Wrex, Legion and Mordin were all certainly more than cameos, and it's possible for the player to have killed Wrex off back in ME1. Jack, Miranda, Samara and Grunt weren't given major roles, this is true, but all had involvement in significantly sized sidequests. Thane had little more than a cameo, but we were given fair warning that this would be the case back in ME2 with the whole 'I'm dying' thing and his appearance was meaningful. The only appearances that, in my view, can legitimately be called 'one small cameo' were Zaeed and Kasumi (because they were dlc, presumably therefore lots of players would never have met them at all) and Jacob, who was arguably the least popular crewmember in the entire trilogy. And even those three were involved in quests.

If the devs are aware (and I'm pretty sure they are) of who the most popular characters are, they will, I'm sure, give them whatever role they want in the story - and if that character happens to be dead in a given playthrough, they will either be replaced in a main questline by Biff the Understudy/Urdnot Wreav/Padoc Wilks etc or simply won't be replaced at all (as with Garrus/Tali etc). If the character wasn't terribly popular then yeah, they might be relegated to a cameo, and while there might be a bit of fuss, not that many people should be overly bothered (as long as they don't pull an Emily Wong or Kal Reegar, I guess ). Not every decision has to be recognised in an amazingly meaningful way (the devs can pick and choose); and since DA isn't a trilogy but (potentially) a series, not everything has to be wrapped up in DA3.

Given that this has been done before, why is it now such an outrageous waste of resources to do it again? 


I don't really get the argument that money should not be spent on a particular feature just because it is content that x number of players will never see (Edit: Unless we're talking about some ridiculous ratio like 99% to 1% or something ). It's an argument that could be used to cut almost any feature. Metrics for games suggest that an awful lot of players never even finish games. Admittedly this is an extreme extension of the argument , but should games be produced without an ending because lots of people won't experience it?  If it's the case that most gamers play caucasian male warriors who hack/slash their way through the story, then what is the point of character customisation, different classes, alternative ways of solving quests? All this development money could be spent on more elaborate sword animations and bigger combat levels.

One of the most lauded 'OMG isn't this awesome???!!!11' features of The Witcher 2 was it's second act, totally different dependent on which decision you make in Act one. I have only experienced the Iorveth path; and this is likely to remain so since I've now moved on to other games. Had only one path been present, more zots could have been allocated to my game experience, which therefore would probably have been longer .. or at least had more wimmins in it for Geralt to shag or whatever.  Seems a bit mean-spirited for me to proclaim that the featureis a waste of money that shouldn't exist simply because I (and presumably many others who played TW2 once) never experienced.

Modifié par AllThatJazz, 26 octobre 2012 - 03:04 .

[Kail Ashton]

Ahh yes poor planning and implementation, the terminal brain tumur of video games

Only thing worth acknowledging, everything else in this thread is just poorly thought out & pointless; but then again that's most every topic on these forums