637 réponses à ce sujet

[draken-heart]

Saberchic wrote...

Considering how meaningless the import ended up being (cameos too), I wouldn't mind if they axed the import feature. That's just one less thing to glitch in the game.

This is what I was talking about, people asking bioware to remove a feature that was supposed to shore up world consistency, yet providing no alternative to it. They just want one game with a set canon that likely no one chose.

*note that I am not trying to put words in your posts, just stating what I believe you are trying to say.

Modifié par draken-heart, 23 octobre 2012 - 07:31 .

[X-Com_Psi_Amp]

Then I'm going to say this once again

Dragon Age is not meant to be Mass Effect

It's not meant to be a world that evolves based on past decisions in previous games.
The staff were arguing until the last minute wheter or not to allow save imports in DA2.
Clearly, the marketing folks won.
The decision to allow save imports in DA2 was a wrong detour.

Furthermore, there already is a set canon that is does NOT care about your past decisions.

So yes, what I am saying that having a set canon is the better choice for Dragon Age.
And they already have one.

I'm saying that Bioware should respect choices made within a game only within the scope of said game itself. And I want a lot more varried choices like Dragon Age Origin.

But don't want what I do in DAO being an anchor that weighs down DA2 and DA3. And it will be.

Modifié par X-Com_Psi_Amp, 24 octobre 2012 - 07:17 .

[Fredward]

Dropping the import feature now would be weird. It's the DA gimmick. And I mean gimmick in the nicest way.

[X-Com_Psi_Amp]

No it's not. That's Mass Effect's gimmick.

Dragon Age's gimmick was choices that have repercussions that matter.. PRONOUNCED repercussions. Not just a change in dialogue.

But they also meant for it to only effect the scope of the game it is in.

If you tie this to sequels you are taking away their ability to have choice and effects that have impact.

Having a set canon means I could have done all kinds of crazy things and choices in DA2. 

And the devs wouldn't have to worry about the sequel, because the repurcussions only take effect within that said game.

Modifié par X-Com_Psi_Amp, 24 octobre 2012 - 07:23 .

[Emzamination]

draken-heart wrote...

I just looked and Laidlaw confirmed the ability to import to "Shore up world consistency", while Mark Darrah said they were looking for ways to include choices without save import.

so unless the OP and his blind followers can come up with an alternative to the save file transfer system, they need to shut up, sit back and quit trying to tell Bioware to remove save imports.

It seems clear to me that we must now form a fourm faction under Mike laidlaw's banner fourmites.

[Fredward]

X-Com_Psi_Amp wrote...

No it's not. That's Mass Effect's gimmick.

Dragon Age's gimmick was choices that have repercussions that matter.. PRONOUNCED repercussions. Not just a change in dialogue.

But they also meant for it to only effect the scope of the game it is in.

If you tie this to sequels you are taking away their ability to have choice and effects that are meaningful.

Having a set canon means I could have done all kinds of crazy things and choices in DA2. 

And the devs wouldn't have to worry about the sequel, because the repurcussions only take effect within that said game.

I don't agree. While ME did it first it's every bit as important for DA. The DIFFERENCE is that in ME the story was about Shepard, and the Reapers, but I mean it was SHEPARD's story. In DA the story is not about the individual it's about Thedas. Or the DRAGON Age. The hundred years and the events that took place within it. The effects aren't seen as quickly as they are in ME because they aren't affecting an individual. After Origins we saw very little effect because we only had one game, now we have two. We have a mage/templar war and Ferelden is still out of the picture due to the Blight.

Now in THEORY wouldn't it be really snazzy to see how decisions you made in previous games effect the WORLD? Which I think the DA series is about. You play character that had a part, or witnessed, history being made. Of course that kinda epic failed with DA2... But you could handwave that and just say "HEY! Hawke was ACTUALLY just a onlooker since the Warden shaped history!" In which case I really do hope that DA3 will have a participating protag again. xp

[X-Com_Psi_Amp]

The save import feature in ME was advertised even when the first Mass Effect game was still in development. It was MEANT to be a continuing trilogy from the start in which you import previous save games.

This was not the case for Dragon Age.

The save import feature in Dragon Age didn't even come to mind until Dragon Age 2 development.

Modifié par X-Com_Psi_Amp, 24 octobre 2012 - 07:43 .

[Genshie]

X-Com_Psi_Amp wrote...



This was not the case for Dragon Age.

The save import feature in Dragon Age didn't even come to mind until Dragon Age 2 development.

Wrong you are forgetting Awakening which did transfer your previous choices and had an affect to the game. And besides this request is rather dumb since they themselves are going through with importing choices in some matter already. They are trying to figure a way to import your choices without using the imported saves. (an improvement of sorts)

The drop save imports and the human protagonist threads to be the most popular threads as of late both which Bioware has already stated their answers. I am glad though the human protagonist thread has shrunk down to one thread only while this type of thread is still being created.

One last note: I don't want to play "your" cannon. I playthrough the Origins, Awakening, and DA2 making the choices that I thought were interesting and I want to see my choices take affect. Selfish as that may sound I didn't buy any of the Dragon Age games for a cannon story. What they do in the novels/comics is their choice but don't try to alter what I had control over and spent my time on.  Also as explained in previous threads by Bioware depending if you "killed" Leliana or not in Origins will result in different things happening in DA3.

Modifié par Genshie, 24 octobre 2012 - 08:30 .

[AllThatJazz]

 Personally, whether there is an actual import, or just a way to set relevant decisions via a genesis-type thing doesn't bother me. I DO want to see my decisions carried over however, as I enjoy the slightly more personalised experience I get from it. And I agree wholeheartedly with Mousestalker - I would aggravated as all hell if 'my' Warden and Hawke turned up, or were referenced throughout the game, and were clearly nothing like my Hawke and Warden. I was a bit miffed at the appearance of Revan in TOR, and it's been years since I played KotOR and I already knew R was making an appearance in the game so had time to prepare , and I was well aware there was no mechanism for importing my KotOR choices.

Fast Jimmy is right. Asking for imports/decisions carrying over is inherently selfish. I want MY game to be different for ME because of MY choices and it increases MY immersion. And if other features have to be sacrificed in order to cater to MY enjoyment, then so be it! But every feature asked for/demanded by gamers is pretty selfish for the exact same reasons. Look at the 80-odd pages of the 'multiple races' thread. Since metrics (apparently) suggest that 80% of players or whatever play as human, technically multiple races are a bit of a waste of time. So are the people who want to see them included wrong? Nope. They are fighting for what they personally want to see in the game because it helps them enjoy the game more. Same here. 

Those who argue against imports are doing so because ultimately they would like those zots spent on things that they personally find more satisfying, whatever those things are. Eh, we're all a bunch of selfish dichkeads and if we weren't, this place would be reeeaaaal quiet

[AsheraII]

X-Com_Psi_Amp wrote...
I believe one of the reasons why DAO was good, is because it was initially meant to be a stand alone, and the story is unshackled.

Except it was not. It was launched as a new IP, with plans for multiple games within the setting. Just the protagonist is not meant to be recurring, but the setting as a whole definitely was.

Creating a cohesive setting for a game is expensive. It takes a lot of writers and designers a lot of work to create one. The more detailed it gets, like DAO, Mass Effect, but also TES and such, the more expensive it is to create.
Such detail either comes with age, as new games and stories are written within the setting, or a game starts out with such detail, in which case you can be certain that it is meant to be re-used for future games. A gamesetting like HALO is the former, it expanded with time. DAO is one of the latter, it was thought out with future games in mind.

X-Com_Psi_Amp wrote...
As a result there are more options given to the players, because it does not have to worry about presevering narrative continuity with previous and  future games.

Which causes discontinuity between games. Players won't connect with the setting, because it's different with every game. They can cause something in one game, spend half their time in that game with the truth they created,  which shapes their experience and knowledge for that setting, and in the next game find that what they caused didn't happen in the new game, so effectively, the setting they experienced in the first game is NOT the setting they experienced in the second.

X-Com_Psi_Amp wrote...
I believe DA3 should be more like DAO when it comes to decisions.

And what's different beteen making decisions in DAO and making decisions in DA3? You make a decision, and it has some effect. That's all there is to it. Whether it has any effect in future games is NOT something you should worry about, since that is knowledge your character doesn't have either.

X-Com_Psi_Amp wrote...
I would rather have the decisions made DURING DA3 have a more pronounced effect, rather than decisions made during previous games have a trivial effecs and cute cameos.

They have an effect. They did in DA2 as well. You don't even know whether something you did in DA2 has any effect in DA3. There's probably something, but you certainly don't know what was the cause, nor what will be the result. That is actually the best part of it all: you just can't meta-game, because you will never know what effect your decisions will have in future games.

X-Com_Psi_Amp wrote...
Now, some are probably wondering? Can't we have pronounced repurcussions of our choices for both past and present decision?

No, we can not. This because games have strict development cycles and they need to meet release dates.

Oh, and you're the developer? You are Bioware? No you're not. You're just a meta-gamer who's worried that his perfect playthrough for DAO to get the ideal results in DA2 might have repercussions in DA3.
Save importing is simply part of the whole development process. They know the data they get to import from the previous games, and they get to pick the interresting bits to export to the next game.

While the programmers and designers are busy creating DA3, half the writers are already making notes for DA4.
What will be the main plot, what are the effects from previous games, maybe negate some effects from previous games in the next game. What decision tree from DA3 will be used for new players in DA4? (This also happened for DA2 and DA3: one playthrough from DAO was made the default storyline for DA2. That playthrough was the start for a DA2 playthrough which in turn became the default storyline for DA3). But the interresting thing is: the default storyline is NOT canon. There is *no* canon.

X-Com_Psi_Amp wrote...
So, I'm asking you to abandon importing saves. You are just wasting precious resources. I'm asking to make a choice and adopt DA3 as a stand alone game mindset.

Then don't import save games. But to deny the feature to all other players? I'm sorry, but save imports are something that makes Bioware games so interresting. There are plenty other developers without this feature, maybe those games suit YOU better, but the Bioware fans expect more than that.

X-Com_Psi_Amp wrote...
Dragon Age was never meant to be a trilogy like Mass Effect, please don't bother. It does not have Shepard to die several diffent games together.

It was not meant to be a trilogy, but it WAS meant from the start as a player-consistent setting for a series of games. A series of games doesn't need a recurring protagonist, that's what you obviously fail to understand.

X-Com_Psi_Amp wrote...
Marketing might force you to shoehorn to attract more potential buyers, but let them know there are people like me who realize that it will only make the game worse.

Uhmmmm, now you don't make sense, since new players will NOT have the benefit of save imports, so it isn't a big attraction to new (more!) players. It's just a perk to the old (not more!) players.
And seriously, if I even remotely agreed wih you, then I'd just buy some 13-in-a-dozen RPG without save imports from unknown developer X from Steam. Or better even, play some silly MMO like WoW or GW, so I don't need to bother with making saves at all. Obviously, I'm not. The consistent player experience is what makes these series so interresting.

But, if importing a savegame from the previous game ruins your experience for this game: then simply don't. There is always a default background for new players. Use that, so you don't have to "suffer" those cute cameos.

X-Com_Psi_Amp wrote...
Please, do the right thing.

That would be making sure that we do have the option to import our saves.

[Biotic Sage]

marshalleck wrote...

ArinTheirinCousland wrote...

So basically, screw all the choices our Wardens and Hawkes made? Leave them as that?
<_<

You could just not import any saved files and start clean, you'll have history, of course, but
all games have history (it's just nice to be able to choose history, for once).

Way to miss the point. All your choices are already going to be thrown away for the most part, by virtue of the fact that not everyone is going to have made the same ones you did, therefore Bioware can't make your personal Warden or Hawke story anything of major significance in subsequent games, otherwise they're just creating content some players won't see. 

Save imports are only a constraint on the writers. They aren't willing to make any divergent plot threads so everything comes out either mostly the same regardless of decision (e.g. Rachni ME3) or they're just stupid pointless brief cameos that don't go anywhere. 

It was a cool idea back in 2007 but obviously it's too complicated and costs too much to develop. So just do the right thing and scrap it, then give us immediately impactful choice and consequence limited to the scope of each game, with canonized plot points playing out the same for everyone and carrying the story forward to the next.

Completely agree.

The problem is Bioware dug their own grave and now they have to lay in it.  People apparently can't understand the intricacies of what you laid out above, so if they ever took away the import feature people would see it as "nullifying choice!" instead of what it actually does: makes our choices within the game more significant.  That anyone can actually think importing save games does anything more than give you a superficial illusion of customization continuity is beyond me.  I have yet to see that actually happen.

Modifié par Biotic Sage, 24 octobre 2012 - 09:10 .

[Peranor]

To abandon the save import concept in DA3 is probably not a good idea.

But if BW ever start a new IP or a new ME/DA trilogy I'm not opposed to the idea of removing the save import feature. I get a feeling that it's holding them back in terms of story telling.

Either that or skip the whole trilogy idea. Make stand alone game, or maybe a duology.

As marshalleck said:
...give us immediately impactful choice and consequence limited to the scope of each game

Modifié par anorling, 24 octobre 2012 - 09:14 .

[AsheraII]

X-Com_Psi_Amp wrote...

No it's not. That's Mass Effect's gimmick.

And KotOR
And Dragon Age

X-Com_Psi_Amp wrote...

Dragon Age's gimmick was choices that have repercussions that matter.. PRONOUNCED repercussions. Not just a change in dialogue.

The effects from DAO mattered LESS in DA2, since DA2 took place in another country. But still within the same setting.

X-Com_Psi_Amp wrote...

But they also meant for it to only effect the scope of the game it is in.

And that is your personal assumption. I'm sure the writers and designers are grateful to you for talking for them. Oh wait, you're not.

X-Com_Psi_Amp wrote...

If you tie this to sequels you are taking away their ability to have choice and effects that have impact.


Having a set canon means I could have done all kinds of crazy things and choices in DA2.

Now we're getting to the problem you have. The writers really don't care about your "crazy" playthrough. Well, they might have a laugh about it. It's YOU who is worried about the consequences. And they're like the sword of Damocles: you don't even know what those consequences are, nor when they're gonna fall on you. But some things you thought to be a good idea in DAO or DA2 will affect your experience in DA3. Will you miss some awesome loot because of it? An exciting quest? Just a cameo? Half your potential of partymembers?

X-Com_Psi_Amp wrote...

And the devs wouldn't have to worry about the sequel, because the repurcussions only take effect within that said game.

Like in every other game? That's boring, especially in a series where your decisions supposedly matter. Then it's a big bummer when you learn in the next game that they didn't. And this is one of those things that make Bioware games stand out from all those other games.  Lots of Bioware fans would actually prefer to see their decisions having GREATER impact in sequels, and to some degree, I think they're right. Though I do think the type of impact shouldn't be so big as to completely alter the setting (like, entire species wiped out, areas destroyed forever, etc. That was a bit too much in ME I think)

[Pzykozis]

Meh I'm of the mind that it'd probably be easier, less prone to bugs and generally a better experience if they made one of them there interactive comicy things that allows you to shape the world in the ways that matter, we've already experienced our personal choices seeing the outcome of an event isn't the only way you experience choice the choice itself crafts your experience. I'm not sure it really matters in the future whether i refused to hand over Grahly the angry Kossith mage or not or even if I helped Harrowmonts nephew or no, the amaranthine quest was fairly throwaway to be honest.

Not sure I'm looking forward to playing through the whole franchise again to sort out the problems where even though Nathan survived in my fully upgraded keep he died according to flags and remember that the problem is not in how DA2 interpreted flags it was problems with the flags in Awakening in general.

Also and whilst people might scoff, giving the ability for people who perhaps didn't like DA2 and so dont have a save for that or even new comers that weren't interested in the time, to shape the DA3 world to their liking would be pretty nice.

[Arakat]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

I disagree. I like the sense of continuity that comes from the save import and I feel it's a good use of resources.

This.

One of the things I love about DA is that you can make Thedas your Thedas.

[wright1978]

arakat wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

I disagree. I like the sense of continuity that comes from the save import and I feel it's a good use of resources.

This.

One of the things I love about DA is that you can make Thedas your Thedas.

Agree completely

Modifié par wright1978, 24 octobre 2012 - 11:41 .

[Genshie]

Sion1138 wrote...

I remember how in KotOR 2, continuity was handled by way of dialogue. You talk to Atton Rand about Revan and you are allowed to define their gender and such during that conversation. You also flesh out your current character's history that way.

No need for importing anything.

As said before they are currently looking into a way to improve upon importing without actually using the said imports. I am just wondering how since if the rumors of our Warden and Hawke appearing as NPCs is true there has to be some importing involved.

[NedPepper]

I'm all in favor of this. UNLESS they can make them mean something. So far, this hasn't happened. I think it was a nice experiment, but choices should be reflected in game, and then canonized afterward for a sequel. But I'm pretty sure the import is staying. So, I'll just have to live with it. Although, ultimately it becomes more limiting to the narrative. The cons outweigh the pros.

[Genshie]

nedpepper wrote...

I'm all in favor of this. UNLESS they can make them mean something. So far, this hasn't happened. I think it was a nice experiment, but choices should be reflected in game, and then canonized afterward for a sequel. But I'm pretty sure the import is staying. So, I'll just have to live with it. Although, ultimately it becomes more limiting to the narrative. The cons outweigh the pros.

Says you. Saying just that is entirely opinionated. We on the forums are the minority regardless of what anyone says. Now when people see a Bioware game they normally think that if its a sequel that there are choices that will be imported. Also once again no knows how our choices from all the previous titles are going to be affecting DA3. Assuming that the game would be better without a main feature, that all their previous titles had, without even knowing harldy anything about it is ridiculous.

[draken-heart]

X-Com_Psi_Amp wrote...

Then I'm going to say this once again

Dragon Age is not meant to be Mass Effect

It's not meant to be a world that evolves based on past decisions in previous games.
The staff were arguing until the last minute wheter or not to allow save imports in DA2.
Clearly, the marketing folks won.
The decision to allow save imports in DA2 was a wrong detour.

Furthermore, there already is a set canon that is does NOT care about your past decisions.

So yes, what I am saying that having a set canon is the better choice for Dragon Age.
And they already have one.

I'm saying that Bioware should respect choices made within a game only within the scope of said game itself. And I want a lot more varried choices like Dragon Age Origin.

But don't want what I do in DAO being an anchor that weighs down DA2 and DA3. And it will be.

They have a set canon? Why didn't I know about it? Oh that is right, because it is not one set, but a set of choices to SHORE UP WORLD CONSISTENCY.

I never actually heard anything about them actually hving a set canon. Unless you work inside Bioware, you cannot say that because the Promo characters are not the canon one. Mass effect and Dragon Age do not have canon, but default for those who have not played the other games. Getting it now, Canon for the two biggest franchises is whatever the players creat in THEIR GAMES.

In all honesty, as it has been said before, DA is about Thedas as a whole, you cannot expect EVERY choice to matter as it would about a series like Mass Effect, which is about a single person. The best you can expect Save Imports to do in DA is shore up world cinsistency. The sooner you guys/gals who want to remove the feature get that, the better off you will be.

Modifié par draken-heart, 24 octobre 2012 - 05:43 .

[Maclimes]

AsheraII wrote...

X-Com_Psi_Amp wrote...

No it's not. That's Mass Effect's gimmick.

And KotOR
And Dragon Age

Long before Bioware was even a twinkle in the eyes of the good doctors, the idea of importing saves from one game to the next was already being used

Series I can think of: Quest for Glory, Bard's Tale, Ultima, almost all of the D&D games from SSI, Neverwinter Nights. This is an old concept, and does not belong to Mass Effect or Dragon Age or even Bioware exclusively.

[draken-heart]

Maclimes wrote...

AsheraII wrote...

X-Com_Psi_Amp wrote...

No it's not. That's Mass Effect's gimmick.

And KotOR
And Dragon Age

Long before Bioware was even a twinkle in the eyes of the good doctors, the idea of importing saves from one game to the next was already being used

Series I can think of: Quest for Glory, Bard's Tale, Ultima, almost all of the D&D games from SSI, Neverwinter Nights. This is an old concept, and does not belong to Mass Effect or Dragon Age or even Bioware exclusively.

OP and his "cult" are just angry that save imports for DA just create the world they want to play, nd that none of THEIR choices mattered in DA2 even though barely any choices mattered.

Modifié par draken-heart, 24 octobre 2012 - 05:57 .

[Rune-Chan]

I wouldn't mind if you could import, only to allow consistency. So if they are talking about Hawke or the Warden, they refer to the right gender, if they talk about which side somebody fought on, they mention the right side.

I would not be bothered at all if it didn't extent beyond that personally.