637 réponses à ce sujet

[draken-heart]

Machines Are Us wrote...

I wouldn't mind if you could import, only to allow consistency. So if they are talking about Hawke or the Warden, they refer to the right gender, if they talk about which side somebody fought on, they mention the right side.

I would not be bothered at all if it didn't extent beyond that personally.

This is exactly what I was talking about, that imports only allow the world to be consistent with the choices people make.

and if the OP states that there is a set canon again, He need actual evidence, not the "canons" from DA2, as tose are not canon, and the Promo warden is not canon as well. Infact, people who say there is a set canon for DA need to shut up because they are wrong and the canon is what we want it to be.

[draken-heart]

sorry for the double post but this is not related to the previous one:

OP, are you sure that imports are bad for DA or are you just too lazy to put in the work for your world and need Bioware to backstab everyone else in a way so you can have your world made for you?

[MillKill]

draken-heart wrote...

sorry for the double post but this is not related to the previous one:

OP, are you sure that imports are bad for DA or are you just too lazy to put in the work for your world and need Bioware to backstab everyone else in a way so you can have your world made for you?

That seems like an unnecessarily personal attack. The problem many of us have with imports is that thy result in choices being meaningless and weaker stories that must bend and contort to every possible decision a previous player did. I'd rather chave a set of canon choices that had a meaningful impact on the game, even if none of them matched to mine. DA is not one continuous story. I don't see why it must accomodate every set of player choices from previous games when making one set of choices have bigger impacts would be a better use of resources.

In a perfect world of unlimited development resources, I'd love the save import. We don't live in such a world and resources have to be used in a cost-effective manner.  

[Aulis Vaara]

Sion1138 wrote...

I remember how in KotOR 2, continuity was handled by way of dialogue. You talk to Atton Rand about Revan and you are allowed to define their gender and such during that conversation. You also flesh out your current character's history that way.

No need for importing anything.

Funny, that importing is considered a resource-hog, yet if they had been able to import those variables from the previous game, they wouldn't have had to put in that conversation.

I'm all for importing. But! They really shouldn't be doing silly cameos like drunk Alistair or Zevran. They just don't fit well into DA2. King Alistair's visit was only so-so as well. Ultimately, they just felt forced and silly, and didn't really fit the tone of Dragon Age. Leliana, on the other hand, I thought was handled rather well, even if she was previously dead. I hope we get to discover a bit more about that in the future, though. It just fit with Dragon Age. Especially after you helped Flemeth cheat death.

[Kanon777]

Aulis Vaara wrote...

Sion1138 wrote...

I remember how in KotOR 2, continuity was handled by way of dialogue. You talk to Atton Rand about Revan and you are allowed to define their gender and such during that conversation. You also flesh out your current character's history that way.

No need for importing anything.

Funny, that importing is considered a resource-hog, yet if they had been able to import those variables from the previous game, they wouldn't have had to put in that conversation.

But the import in Kotor2 didnt have the same complexity that the DAO-DA2 did, it just asked your character's gender and if he was a lightside or darkside character. So yes, Bioware import feature IS a resource hog.

[Uccio]

I wonder what import would mean anything since Origins import had zero effect on DA2 and DA2 ending is so trivial that no matter which side you chose it was still the same.

I do like the option though.

[Fast Jimmy]

Aulis Vaara wrote...

Sion1138 wrote...

I remember how in KotOR 2, continuity was handled by way of dialogue. You talk to Atton Rand about Revan and you are allowed to define their gender and such during that conversation. You also flesh out your current character's history that way.

No need for importing anything.

Funny, that importing is considered a resource-hog, yet if they had been able to import those variables from the previous game, they wouldn't have had to put in that conversation.

I'm all for importing. But! They really shouldn't be doing silly cameos like drunk Alistair or Zevran. They just don't fit well into DA2. King Alistair's visit was only so-so as well. Ultimately, they just felt forced and silly, and didn't really fit the tone of Dragon Age. Leliana, on the other hand, I thought was handled rather well, even if she was previously dead. I hope we get to discover a bit more about that in the future, though. It just fit with Dragon Age. Especially after you helped Flemeth cheat death.

Well, Flemeth was pretty much a guaranteed. Although I'm kind of curious about if the Warden in DA:O let Flemeth live, but then she was reincarnated in DA2, would there be TWO Flemeths?

Maker.



Regardless, adding a conversation in a new game that sets all of the new flags is INFINITELY less resources consuming than to have every possible choice in the previous game set off a flag correctly, then having a system in the new game that can reliably and accurately detect those flags and load the corresponding data. One conversation at the beginning of the game which sets these flags is easy to write, easy to code and requires much less cross-game testing, which saves time and money.


That aside, choice imports in general are inherently troublesome, as they require custom worlds. The Zevran or Allistair cameos you quote as being silly are actually pretty resource intensive... and are fairly small acknowledgements of the previous choices. Imagine how something like the Old God Baby/Dark Ritual choice would look like with similar resources. One conversation with Morrigan, where a baby of a deity exists or doesn't? That seems entirely superficial for the weight of the choice. 

If imports were abandonned, then the writers could say anything they want about what happeend in the previous game. So we could have a world where the OGB plays a major part, or where Morrigan is antagonistic because she was denied. We could have a story about Allistair struggling as king, while Anora is locked in the tower and conspiring for his downfall. We could have a story about Dwarven society under Bhelen and how he is using the Anvil to reclaim the Deep Roads and bring about a Golden Age for Dwarves, but with a dark, terrible secret world of forced sacrifices to make golems.

I could keep going... but the thing is NONE of these stories can be told now. Because it would require too many resources to create all of them. Bioware has flat out said they will not create vast swaths of custom content. Won't happen.

So would you rather some of the cool things you're characters had the option of doing happen and really amazing ideas for stories pop out of them, or would you rather make the choice, have it make no difference and then never hear about it again?

[UrgentArchengel]

As a big fan of continuity. I rather have it.

[draken-heart]

MillKill wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

sorry for the double post but this is not related to the previous one:

OP, are you sure that imports are bad for DA or are you just too lazy to put in the work for your world and need Bioware to backstab everyone else in a way so you can have your world made for you?

That seems like an unnecessarily personal attack. The problem many of us have with imports is that thy result in choices being meaningless and weaker stories that must bend and contort to every possible decision a previous player did. I'd rather chave a set of canon choices that had a meaningful impact on the game, even if none of them matched to mine. DA is not one continuous story. I don't see why it must accomodate every set of player choices from previous games when making one set of choices have bigger impacts would be a better use of resources.

In a perfect world of unlimited development resources, I'd love the save import. We don't live in such a world and resources have to be used in a cost-effective manner.  

Like I said before, I do not mind if they remove Save imports, as long as I can make the game world I want. But telling them to develop a set of Canon choices? Seems like the OP just wants Bioware to make the game world for him instead of making it himself. Plus, what about those who want to have THEIR WORLD in the game? Likely having one set of canon choices would kill the game for them cause Bioware to lose fans. do not think BW needs that right now...

Modifié par draken-heart, 24 octobre 2012 - 08:42 .

[draken-heart]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Regardless, adding a conversation in a new game that sets all of the new flags is INFINITELY less resources consuming than to have every possible choice in the previous game set off a flag correctly, then having a system in the new game that can reliably and accurately detect those flags and load the corresponding data. One conversation at the beginning of the game which sets these flags is easy to write, easy to code and requires much less cross-game testing, which saves time and money.

Honestly I agree, I would like Game imports, but all I want is some way to create the world I want, not be forced to play the world BW makes for me. sure they did create the world, but the events are what define it, and that is what is mine.

[FINE HERE]

How is this still a thing? This reminds me of the thread where someone asked potions to be removed from the game because they didn't used them.

There is a set canon you can use where you don't need a save import. You can start a game without a save import. There is no need to take away a feature many people use just because you don't use it.

[draken-heart]

FINE HERE wrote...

How is this still a thing? This reminds me of the thread where someone asked potions to be removed from the game because they didn't used them.

There is a set canon you can use where you don't need a save import. You can start a game without a save import. There is no need to take away a feature many people use just because you don't use it.

The problem these people have is that their choices were either not presented or were handled poorly.

Personally, Do we need to know what happened to connor or the events of the circle in Ferelden or even the incident at the anvil of the void? Not at this point. Main things we would need to know at this point are ruler of ferelden, King of Orzamar (Bhelen or Harrowmont) and even, to an extent, the outcome of the nature of the beast and whether Hawke was viscount or fled Kirkwall.

[Realmzmaster]

I have no problem with the import system except gamers want their particular import to have a profound affect on the story. This is what becomes problematic. DA2 handled the import by making nods to some of the choices. One reason gamers were upset is because those choices did not have a profund affect all over Thedas. Some are still wondering when the OGB will have an effect on Thedas, even if other playthrough never had an OGB. It is simply not possible to include all those choices and keep a coherent story.
You have gamers complaining about events that get retcon already (Leliana dead or not). Bioware is going to have to sort out which choices will go forward and leave others in the dust. Or give nods to the choices and move on with the story Bioware wishes to tell.

[JWvonGoethe]

[edit: on second thought, this really isn't very relevant to thread, sorry, but I'll leave it in for anyone interested.]
 
How about including a gauge for how strictly the game respects the import flags?

So if we import a past game and set the import gauge to default, then the game largely respects the major decisions made by Hawke and our Warden, but not at the expense if storyline and gameplay.

If we set the import gauge to strict, however, then we get a warning saying that due to our past choices, we may end up being unable to experience substantial portions of the game depending on some of the import flags. These could include being unable to unlock certain specialisations (like Arcane Warrior, which the Warden may have never unlocked, meaning no one would ever find out about it), unable to meet certain characters (like no cameo from a DA:A companion if they died at Vigil's Keep), or even that we would be unable to experience certain companions (for instance, if Shale was to be a companion in DA3, but was never found by the Warden in DA:O, then she would not be in Inquisition.) This setting would be more about leaving out things rather than adding them.

I'd just set it at strict, and just try to experience everything over multiple playthroughs. Obviously it is a bad idea and likely to be very expensive and difficult to implement, but it would be great nonetheless.

Modifié par JWvonGoethe, 24 octobre 2012 - 09:27 .

[draken-heart]

Realmzmaster wrote...

I have no problem with the import system except gamers want their particular import to have a profound affect on the story. This is what becomes problematic. DA2 handled the import by making nods to some of the choices. One reason gamers were upset is because those choices did not have a profund affect all over Thedas. Some are still wondering when the OGB will have an effect on Thedas, even if other playthrough never had an OGB. It is simply not possible to include all those choices and keep a coherent story.
You have gamers complaining about events that get retcon already (Leliana dead or not). Bioware is going to have to sort out which choices will go forward and leave others in the dust. Or give nods to the choices and move on with the story Bioware wishes to tell.

if these forums had ratings, I'd rate this a winning post. This is exactly what people should think.

[Wulfram]

FINE HERE wrote...

How is this still a thing? This reminds me of the thread where someone asked potions to be removed from the game because they didn't used them.

There is a set canon you can use where you don't need a save import. You can start a game without a save import. There is no need to take away a feature many people use just because you don't use it.

Thank you for demonstrating that you have not read the thread.

Not using the feature does nothing to ameliorate the damage it causes to the game.  It doesn't restore choices that were removed because they would be too difficult to accomodate in future games, and it doesn't allow the game to properly explore elements that are forced to sidelines because they're affected by prior choices.

[Icinix]

After DAO I was like "NOOOOOOOOOoooooo!"

After DA2 I'm like - Yeah, whatever.

If the carry over limits diversity or apparent diversity of choices and outcomes in a singular game - then by all means BE GONE WITH YE!

[Aulis Vaara]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Regardless, adding a conversation in a new game that sets all of the new flags is INFINITELY less resources consuming than to have every possible choice in the previous game set off a flag correctly, then having a system in the new game that can reliably and accurately detect those flags and load the corresponding data. One conversation at the beginning of the game which sets these flags is easy to write, easy to code and requires much less cross-game testing, which saves time and money.

You can already read savegames from the previous game, since you wrote the code then. And now we're done with our work on savegame imports... (unless you count providing the menu option while starting a new game).

The only conflicts you can have is flags that are set inaccurately in the previous game, but that's not something you can fix anyway, so there's no time lost there.

[Genshie]

Wulfram wrote...

FINE HERE wrote...

How is this still a thing? This reminds me of the thread where someone asked potions to be removed from the game because they didn't used them.

There is a set canon you can use where you don't need a save import. You can start a game without a save import. There is no need to take away a feature many people use just because you don't use it.

Thank you for demonstrating that you have not read the thread.

Not using the feature does nothing to ameliorate the damage it causes to the game.  It doesn't restore choices that were removed because they would be too difficult to accomodate in future games, and it doesn't allow the game to properly explore elements that are forced to sidelines because they're affected by prior choices.

However, Bioware as already stated that they are using import of some kind. (Making an improvement on) This thread is literally pointless. Also once again I don't want to play "your cannon". I can say this easy if Bioware takes something like imports out of DA, unless its a prequel or spin-off like they are doing with the new ME title, then they lose not just me but alot other fans.

Edit: Just like the whole asking to play as multiple races thing being implemented in future titles they could very well not have the import feature for the following title. In DA3's case however there is no question that there won't be other playable races and that imports are being used somehow.

Modifié par Genshie, 24 octobre 2012 - 09:19 .

[wright1978]

Realmzmaster wrote...

I have no problem with the import system except gamers want their particular import to have a profound affect on the story. This is what becomes problematic. DA2 handled the import by making nods to some of the choices. One reason gamers were upset is because those choices did not have a profund affect all over Thedas. Some are still wondering when the OGB will have an effect on Thedas, even if other playthrough never had an OGB. It is simply not possible to include all those choices and keep a coherent story.
You have gamers complaining about events that get retcon already (Leliana dead or not). Bioware is going to have to sort out which choices will go forward and leave others in the dust. Or give nods to the choices and move on with the story Bioware wishes to tell.

I'm happy with import setting an ambiance of the game universe and adding optional sidecontent rather than being the driving thrust of the main story.

[FINE HERE]

Wulfram wrote...

FINE HERE wrote...

How is this still a thing? This reminds me of the thread where someone asked potions to be removed from the game because they didn't used them.

There is a set canon you can use where you don't need a save import. You can start a game without a save import. There is no need to take away a feature many people use just because you don't use it.

Thank you for demonstrating that you have not read the thread.

Not using the feature does nothing to ameliorate the damage it causes to the game.  It doesn't restore choices that were removed because they would be too difficult to accomodate in future games, and it doesn't allow the game to properly explore elements that are forced to sidelines because they're affected by prior choices.

Okay, you caught me, I didn't read the thread.  (Sorry... I only assumed by the title and... Sorry.)

And, after reading your post, I can see what you mean, but again, I wouldn't want the save import removed. Does it need to be more improved? Probably? But I like to see the world change due to my save import data and would rather stay with how it is than to remove it completely.

[NedPepper]

Genshie wrote...

nedpepper wrote...

I'm all in favor of this. UNLESS they can make them mean something. So far, this hasn't happened. I think it was a nice experiment, but choices should be reflected in game, and then canonized afterward for a sequel. But I'm pretty sure the import is staying. So, I'll just have to live with it. Although, ultimately it becomes more limiting to the narrative. The cons outweigh the pros.

Says you. Saying just that is entirely opinionated. We on the forums are the minority regardless of what anyone says. Now when people see a Bioware game they normally think that if its a sequel that there are choices that will be imported. Also once again no knows how our choices from all the previous titles are going to be affecting DA3. Assuming that the game would be better without a main feature, that all their previous titles had, without even knowing harldy anything about it is ridiculous.

Seeing as how I've already been part of one of these threads, I'm not going to argue with you.  There was a good thread giving my reasons why multiple times about a week ago, and there were a lot of other bright well thought posts there as well.

I'll give you one thing:  Leliana. 

Dead? Alive?  Depends on YOUR save import.  Now they have to retcon her death IF you killed her, and the whole thing has just becomes a nightmare.  Any dead companion for that matter.  And if you are one of the people who complain about her and Zevran not being dead?  Then your choice didn't matter anyway.

OGB?  Will never be a big plot point.  It can't be.  Not everybody did it.

Fenryial?  Same thing. 

Shale, Ohgren, Fenris, Merrill, Sten, Alistar, N. Howe, Sigrun, Anders, Wynne showing up as major plot characters?  Questionable.  All are killable.  But Bioware brought Anders back again once....and people complained.  

Why would Bioware put any resources whatsoever into content only a fraction a players could use?  They won't.  Which means, the OGB with Morrigan will NEVER come to fruition in any meaningful way.  Ohgren can never show up again as a Warden.  Or Howe.  No more Shale.  

And then you have the books written by Gaider.  Canon or not?  Well, I hope so, because otherwise....why did I waste my time reading them?  Are Maric's stories canon?  Is Alistar half elf?  Does Fiona exist?  Does Cole exist?  Was Wynne's REAL death in Asunder?  It was incredibly moving.  Did she die there or she did die when you wanted to side with the Templars in Origins on one of your playthroughs?  Does her son, Rhys, exist as a mage in Orlais?  None of this stuff can be followed up on because the save import, which is basically creates a fractured universe with a thousand alternate universes, and can't realistically be held in any kind of order from one person's playthrough to another. 

The LACK of choices, in general in DA 2?  The ending is the same regardless which side you pick?  Why did this happen?  Because the save import.  They had a direction they were moving in and can't create two different games for each decision. 

If you want it for little asides or cameos, fine.  Seems like a waste of time.  They could do those WITHOUT the save import.  Unless I see my Warden or Hawke show up, then I really don't see its point.

Well, you got a response anyway.

Modifié par nedpepper, 24 octobre 2012 - 09:48 .

[Fast Jimmy]

Aulis Vaara wrote...]

You can already read savegames from the previous game, since you wrote the code then. And now we're done with our work on savegame imports... (unless you count providing the menu option while starting a new game).

The only conflicts you can have is flags that are set inaccurately in the previous game, but that's not something you can fix anyway, so there's no time lost there.

I would have thought it would be this easy as well, but according to QA and dev guys like Stanley Woo and Allan Schumacher, this requires dozens, if not hundreds, of hours of testing to make sure these are read correctly and the same, if not more, amounts of zots to code for the new system to recognize the old before you can even test it. 

Again, I'm not supposing this. This is what has been told to us by the devs - imported information is a LOT of work. Just look at how long it took them to fix the Shepherd face import issue in ME3. Or the fact that Zevran's flag was NEVER fixes for DA2. It's not as easy as a COMPARE function in Excel. 

[PinkDiamondstl]

This thread is bad..........and you should feel bad.

[Peranor]

nedpepper wrote...

Seeing as how I've already been part of one of these threads, I'm not going to argue with you.  There was a good thread giving my reasons why multiple times about a week ago, and there were a lot of other bright well thought posts there as well.

I'll give you one thing:  Leliana.  

Dead? Alive?  Depends on YOUR save import.  Now they have to retcon her death IF you killed her, and the whole thing has just becomes a nightmare.  Any dead companion for that matter.  And if you are one of the people who complain about her and Zevran not being dead?  Then your choice didn't matter anyway.

OGB?  Will never be a big plot point.  It can't be.  Not everybody did it.

Fenryial?  Same thing.  

Shale, Ohgren, Fenris, Merrill, Sten, Alistar, N. Howe, Sigrun, Anders, Wynne showing up as major plot characters?  Questionable.  All are killable.  But Bioware brought Anders back again once....and people complained.  

Why would Bioware put any resources whatsoever into content only a fraction a players could use?  They won't.  Which means, the OGB with Morrigan will NEVER come to fruition in any meaningful way.  Ohgren can never show up again as a Warden.  Or Howe.  No more Shale.  

And then you have the books written by Gaider.  Canon or not?  Well, I hope so, because otherwise....why did I waste my time reading them?  Are Maric's stories canon?  Is Alistar half elf?  Does Fiona exist?  Does Cole exist?  Was Wynne's REAL death in Asunder?  It was incredibly moving.  Did she die there or she did die when you wanted to side with the Templars in Origins on one of your playthroughs?  Does her son, Rhys, exist as a mage in Orlais?  None of this stuff can be followed up on because the save import, which is basically creates a fractured universe with a thousand alternate universes, and can't realistically be held in any kind of order from one person's playthrough to another.  

The LACK of choices, in general in DA 2?  The ending is the same regardless which side you pick?  Why did this happen?  Because the save import.  They had a direction they were moving in and can't create two different games for each decision.  

If you want it for little asides or cameos, fine.  Seems like a waste of time.  They could do those WITHOUT the save import.  Unless I see my Warden or Hawke show up, then I really don't see its point.

Well, you got a response anyway. 

Well said