637 réponses à ce sujet

[wright1978]

nedpepper wrote...


And then you have the books written by Gaider.  Canon or not?  Well, I hope so, because otherwise....why did I waste my time reading them?  Are Maric's stories canon?  Is Alistar half elf?  Does Fiona exist?  Does Cole exist?  Was Wynne's REAL death in Asunder?  It was incredibly moving.  Did she die there or she did die when you wanted to side with the Templars in Origins on one of your playthroughs?  Does her son, Rhys, exist as a mage in Orlais?  None of this stuff can be followed up on because the save import, which is basically creates a fractured universe with a thousand alternate universes, and can't realistically be held in any kind of order from one person's playthrough to another.  

By that logic if they removed the import you would see no point in playing the game?

As far as i'm concerned they are an alternative universe, a diversion where people can enjoy looking in on how Gaider's own personal canon plays out. The characters most certainly exist but the events will not necessarily have panned out identically based on people's own canon universes. In mine Alistair is dead and i certainly don't want the game universe suddenly ignoring that fact. As a Wynne's concerned she's either dead before or in Asunder and won't appear again.

[MillKill]

draken-heart wrote...

Like I said before, I do not mind if they remove Save imports, as long as I can make the game world I want. But telling them to develop a set of Canon choices? Seems like the OP just wants Bioware to make the game world for him instead of making it himself. Plus, what about those who want to have THEIR WORLD in the game? Likely having one set of canon choices would kill the game for them cause Bioware to lose fans. do not think BW needs that right now...

The Fallout series has one of the most unpleasable fanbases I've ever seen. They're even worse than the BSN. When Fallout 2 and New Vegas established canon choices, was there widespread outrage? No. Even they realized how pointless imports are. Those games were great partly because they didn't bother giving a everyone a mediocre a mediocre reaction to their choices. Instead, they gave everyone a much stronger story by making canon choices.

I played through Fallout 1 exactly one time. My choices never resulted in the NCR being formed. The subsequent games assumed that the player had made the choices which allowed the NCR to form. They made the NCR into a very major part of both Fallout 2 and NV. The story was much stronger for it. While playing those games, I never felt like I was being cheated or robbed because my choices weren't being reflected in the game. The stronger storylines made possible by canon choices made up for it.

Each game needs to stand on it's own and try to accomodate the choices every player makes in the current game, not the previous game. Your savegames will not delete themselves if a choice is made canon. Your savegames with a set of choices that are not canonical with the sequels are exactly as fictional as those sequels. I really fail to see why this eludes so many people. If your choice is not reflected in the sequels, the world will keep spinning. The game can still be of high quality if it ignores previous choices, as Fallout 2 and NV proved. 

Importing choices in any form, be it direct save transfer, interactive comic, or choices selected from a menu at the beginning of DA3 handcuffs writers, drains resources, and renders everybody's choices irrelevant.

As for scaring away the fanbase, I'll add this: FNV is one of the best-selling rpgs of all time. I don't think establishing some canon choices in F2 and F3 really bothered too many people enough to stop them from buying.

Modifié par MillKill, 24 octobre 2012 - 10:26 .

[Bob Garbage]

It's really not wasted resources as we're not importing a character who needs to have all the little details of their relationships upheld for hundreds of conversations,but rather the world as we shaped it. I agree that the new DA should not overly rely on the previous titles for it's worth, but to not tie in certain decisions made would be ridiculous.

[Aulis Vaara]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I would have thought it would be this easy as well, but according to QA and dev guys like Stanley Woo and Allan Schumacher, this requires dozens, if not hundreds, of hours of testing to make sure these are read correctly and the same, if not more, amounts of zots to code for the new system to recognize the old before you can even test it. 

Again, I'm not supposing this. This is what has been told to us by the devs - imported information is a LOT of work. Just look at how long it took them to fix the Shepherd face import issue in ME3. Or the fact that Zevran's flag was NEVER fixes for DA2. It's not as easy as a COMPARE function in Excel. 

Then they are poor programmers indeed. If your previous game can read a savefile, than you have a working library for reading those kinds of savefiles. Doesn't take a genius to export and import a library. A first-year computer scientist can do that...

[daaaav]

draken-heart wrote...

sorry for the double post but this is not related to the previous one:

OP, are you sure that imports are bad for DA or are you just too lazy to put in the work for your world and need Bioware to backstab everyone else in a way so you can have your world made for you?

Read the topic you reactionary, lazy human being.  

[daaaav]

FINE HERE wrote...

How is this still a thing? This reminds me of the thread where someone asked potions to be removed from the game because they didn't used them.

There is a set canon you can use where you don't need a save import. You can start a game without a save import. There is no need to take away a feature many people use just because you don't use it.

Unfortunately, the only thing my no potions thread revealed is that people DO NOT READ THE TOPIC and just assume that people are trying to remove features of the game for no reason.

Having a save import feature necessarily TRIVIALISES characters and plotlines so that various player choices can be accomodated. I can't make folk read threads, but the conversation would be more useful if they did...

Modifié par daaaav, 24 octobre 2012 - 11:46 .

[daaaav]

Double Post

Modifié par daaaav, 24 octobre 2012 - 11:53 .

[draken-heart]

MillKill wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

Like I said before, I do not mind if they remove Save imports, as long as I can make the game world I want. But telling them to develop a set of Canon choices? Seems like the OP just wants Bioware to make the game world for him instead of making it himself. Plus, what about those who want to have THEIR WORLD in the game? Likely having one set of canon choices would kill the game for them cause Bioware to lose fans. do not think BW needs that right now...

The Fallout series has one of the most unpleasable fanbases I've ever seen. They're even worse than the BSN. When Fallout 2 and New Vegas established canon choices, was there widespread outrage? No. Even they realized how pointless imports are. Those games were great partly because they didn't bother giving a everyone a mediocre a mediocre reaction to their choices. Instead, they gave everyone a much stronger story by making canon choices.

I played through Fallout 1 exactly one time. My choices never resulted in the NCR being formed. The subsequent games assumed that the player had made the choices which allowed the NCR to form. They made the NCR into a very major part of both Fallout 2 and NV. The story was much stronger for it. While playing those games, I never felt like I was being cheated or robbed because my choices weren't being reflected in the game. The stronger storylines made possible by canon choices made up for it.

Each game needs to stand on it's own and try to accomodate the choices every player makes in the current game, not the previous game. Your savegames will not delete themselves if a choice is made canon. Your savegames with a set of choices that are not canonical with the sequels are exactly as fictional as those sequels. I really fail to see why this eludes so many people. If your choice is not reflected in the sequels, the world will keep spinning. The game can still be of high quality if it ignores previous choices, as Fallout 2 and NV proved. 

Importing choices in any form, be it direct save transfer, interactive comic, or choices selected from a menu at the beginning of DA3 handcuffs writers, drains resources, and renders everybody's choices irrelevant.

As for scaring away the fanbase, I'll add this: FNV is one of the best-selling rpgs of all time. I don't think establishing some canon choices in F2 and F3 really bothered too many people enough to stop them from buying.

Bioware is not Bethesda just so you know. Two totally different companies, two totally different fanbases, two totally different development styles....can't compare them.

and if the games are fictional, why not allow us to create that fictional world through our choices, import or not, other than the fact that there are people who think it is a waste because all their choices do not matter?

Note that I have never begged them to keep Save imports, just give me a way to make the world the way I want it to be, not ask them to make the world for me. This is because I know that Dragon Age is based on world consistency, not individual choices. I want a female mage warden romancing Leliana that makes choices I would make thoughout all three games, not female mage warden for origins, as the legendary hero of ferelden in 2 then have that hero be a male human noble in the third.

The human mind wants consistency/order. To give a set canon for the third game and beyond after allowing us to import our warden's choices throws the consistency/order out of whack and ruins it for some people. plus didn't Bioware state that their games have no canon? blows the mind doesn't it.

Modifié par draken-heart, 25 octobre 2012 - 02:51 .

[sarcastictruths]

It might just be me, but I could have sworn that in the character creation page of dragon age 2 didn't require you to have save file from Dragon Age: Origins in order to play the game. You could picked from three background choices that the writers of the game created. The same thing could be said for the Mass Effect series. I will assume that the third installment of Dragon age will be similar. So, if you don't want to import a file from a previous game from the series then don't, use one of the background choices that the writer will create for those who are new to the series or who decides for whatever reason they don't want to import a save file. It's that simple. 

[MillKill]

sarcastictruths wrote...

It might just be me, but I could have sworn that in the character creation page of dragon age 2 didn't require you to have save file from Dragon Age: Origins in order to play the game. You could picked from three background choices that the writers of the game created. The same thing could be said for the Mass Effect series. I will assume that the third installment of Dragon age will be similar. So, if you don't want to import a file from a previous game from the series then don't, use one of the background choices that the writer will create for those who are new to the series or who decides for whatever reason they don't want to import a save file. It's that simple. 

"Don't like, don't use" does not  address the issue. Please atually read the arguments against including save imports.

[Saberchic]

draken-heart wrote...

Saberchic wrote...

Considering how meaningless the import ended up being (cameos too), I wouldn't mind if they axed the import feature. That's just one less thing to glitch in the game.

This is what I was talking about, people asking bioware to remove a feature that was supposed to shore up world consistency, yet providing no alternative to it. They just want one game with a set canon that likely no one chose.

*note that I am not trying to put words in your posts, just stating what I believe you are trying to say.

There was really no difference in the game whether you imported or not--a side quest here or there, how Alistair would appear, random rumors at the bar, etc. It was meaningless.

I didn't suggest anything to replace it because they don't need it. Just present the story and focus on that. I agree that the general idea behind it is to "shore up world consistency," but BW has shown that they will do what they want regardless. (I'm not complaining, just stating a fact.)

If our choices don't really have a huge impact, why carry them over?

[draken-heart]

Saberchic wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

Saberchic wrote...

Considering how meaningless the import ended up being (cameos too), I wouldn't mind if they axed the import feature. That's just one less thing to glitch in the game.

This is what I was talking about, people asking bioware to remove a feature that was supposed to shore up world consistency, yet providing no alternative to it. They just want one game with a set canon that likely no one chose.

*note that I am not trying to put words in your posts, just stating what I believe you are trying to say.

There was really no difference in the game whether you imported or not--a side quest here or there, how Alistair would appear, random rumors at the bar, etc. It was meaningless.

I didn't suggest anything to replace it because they don't need it. Just present the story and focus on that. I agree that the general idea behind it is to "shore up world consistency," but BW has shown that they will do what they want regardless. (I'm not complaining, just stating a fact.)

If our choices don't really have a huge impact, why carry them over?

Same could have been said of Mass Effect, That the choices you made in the first two did not have a huge impact on the third, so they should not have allowed imports into ME3, yet you can import into the third.

See what I did there.

Plus this is BIOWARE, they will do wht they think ALL their fans want, both those of us on these forums, and non-vocal majority.

Modifié par draken-heart, 25 octobre 2012 - 05:06 .

[HTTP 404]

I wouldn't mind no import saves since all dragon age games have different protagonists.

In mass effect, import saves were important because we played as shepard throughout. Shepard's decisions affecting Shepard in later games.

[Saberchic]

draken-heart wrote...

Same could have been said of Mass Effect, That the choices you made in the first two did not have a huge impact on the third, so they should not have allowed imports into ME3, yet you can import into the third.

See what I did there.

Actually, some of those choices did have an impact on the story (forget the ending BS. That's another issue for another board). Past choices did affect how some situations played out.--Mordin, the rachni, etc.

So I don't think that really applies. 

I guess what I'm really curious about is why people feel so strong a need for a feature that doesn't really impact the story like it was supposed to. Because honestly, DA2 wasn't really all that different if you didn't import.

[draken-heart]

HTTP 404 wrote...

I wouldn't mind no import saves since all dragon age games have different protagonists.

In mass effect, import saves were important because we played as shepard throughout. Shepard's decisions affecting Shepard in later games.

Choices may have been important in ME and ME2, but in three, those choices were reduced to numbers, hardly important, but nice.

[draken-heart]

Saberchic wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

Same could have been said of Mass Effect, That the choices you made in the first two did not have a huge impact on the third, so they should not have allowed imports into ME3, yet you can import into the third.

See what I did there.

Actually, some of those choices did have an impact on the story (forget the ending BS. That's another issue for another board). Past choices did affect how some situations played out.--Mordin, the rachni, etc.

So I don't think that really applies. 

I guess what I'm really curious about is why people feel so strong a need for a feature that doesn't really impact the story like it was supposed to. Because honestly, DA2 wasn't really all that different if you didn't import.

The only way that they can remove save imports, set a canon of choices and make the majority of the people happy, is if the warden and Hawke were never mentioned or seen in three, but they will be mentioned and the inquisitor will see them, so they cannot do that unless they want to anger their fans.

Plus, war assets count as impact now? or, how do you guys know that our choices wont have an impact in three?

Modifié par draken-heart, 25 octobre 2012 - 05:19 .

[Saberchic]

draken-heart wrote...

Saberchic wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

Same could have been said of Mass Effect, That the choices you made in the first two did not have a huge impact on the third, so they should not have allowed imports into ME3, yet you can import into the third.

See what I did there.

Actually, some of those choices did have an impact on the story (forget the ending BS. That's another issue for another board). Past choices did affect how some situations played out.--Mordin, the rachni, etc.

So I don't think that really applies. 

I guess what I'm really curious about is why people feel so strong a need for a feature that doesn't really impact the story like it was supposed to. Because honestly, DA2 wasn't really all that different if you didn't import.

The only way that they can remove save imports, set a canon of choices and make the majority of the people happy, is if the warden and Hawke were never mentioned or seen in three, but they will be mentioned and the inquisitor will see them, so they cannot do that unless they want to anger their fans.

They can have random warden and Hawke rumors flying around that tell of all kinds of possibilities. Those possibilites would cover many choices, and just like life, some may actually be true and some may not.

And I must have missed something. When did they ever say that the inquisitor would see them? I know I've been busy lately, but I thought I would have heard of something like that. As far as I know, seeing them in game is just a wish.

And they already have a canon they work off of. Look at Leliana (she's just one example). She's alive no matter what, and no matter what you chose at the end of DAO, she still goes to work for the divine.

Besides, Bioware live off our tears. It fuels their coffee pots. I don't really think they care if they ****** off some fans because they've already said they know they can't please anyone, and they're going to do what they want to do.

[draken-heart]

Saberchic wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

Saberchic wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

Same could have been said of Mass Effect, That the choices you made in the first two did not have a huge impact on the third, so they should not have allowed imports into ME3, yet you can import into the third.

See what I did there.

Actually, some of those choices did have an impact on the story (forget the ending BS. That's another issue for another board). Past choices did affect how some situations played out.--Mordin, the rachni, etc.

So I don't think that really applies. 

I guess what I'm really curious about is why people feel so strong a need for a feature that doesn't really impact the story like it was supposed to. Because honestly, DA2 wasn't really all that different if you didn't import.

The only way that they can remove save imports, set a canon of choices and make the majority of the people happy, is if the warden and Hawke were never mentioned or seen in three, but they will be mentioned and the inquisitor will see them, so they cannot do that unless they want to anger their fans.

They can have random warden and Hawke rumors flying around that tell of all kinds of possibilities. Those possibilites would cover many choices, and just like life, some may actually be true and some may not.

And I must have missed something. When did they ever say that the inquisitor would see them? I know I've been busy lately, but I thought I would have heard of something like that. As far as I know, seeing them in game is just a wish.

And they already have a canon they work off of. Look at Leliana (she's just one example). She's alive no matter what, and no matter what you chose at the end of DAO, she still goes to work for the divine.

Besides, Bioware live off our tears. It fuels their coffee pots. I don't really think they care if they ****** off some fans because they've already said they know they can't please anyone, and they're going to do what they want to do.

Sorry, meant to say we MAY see them, but even in rumors, if they use specific pronouns like He, It will disconnect people from the world.

Point was still made, and Leliana is the only "Canon" they can work off of (even the people saying they killed her could have only meant gameplay, as in lore Leliana is a bard and a great actress, could have played dead and made it looked convincing). Any Canon warden/Hawke or choices, other than the "canon" choices from DA2, which aren't even canon anyways?

Modifié par draken-heart, 25 octobre 2012 - 05:34 .

[sarcastictruths]

MillKill wrote...

sarcastictruths wrote...

It might just be me, but I could have sworn that in the character creation page of dragon age 2 didn't require you to have save file from Dragon Age: Origins in order to play the game. You could picked from three background choices that the writers of the game created. The same thing could be said for the Mass Effect series. I will assume that the third installment of Dragon age will be similar. So, if you don't want to import a file from a previous game from the series then don't, use one of the background choices that the writer will create for those who are new to the series or who decides for whatever reason they don't want to import a save file. It's that simple. 

"Don't like, don't use" does not  address the issue. Please atually read the arguments against including save imports.

The arguments against including save imports seems to be various forms of the save import has very little or no impact on the next installment of the game. However, that is besides the point, whatever ones reasoning for wanting the save import exclude bioware gives you that option. I believe its only fair to include the option to import a save file if that is what you wish.

[draken-heart]

sarcastictruths wrote...
The arguments against including save imports seems to be various forms of the save import has very little or no impact on the next installment of the game. However, that is besides the point, whatever ones reasoning for wanting the save import exclude bioware gives you that option. I believe its only fair to include the option to import a save file if that is what you wish.

Agreed

[Saberchic]

draken-heart wrote...

Sorry, meant to say we MAY see them, but even in rumors, if they use specific pronouns like He, It will disconnect people from the world.

Point was still made, and Leliana is the only "Canon" they can work off of (even the people saying they killed her could have only meant gameplay, as in lore Leliana is a bard and a great actress, could have played dead and made it looked convincing). Any Canon warden/Hawke or choices, other than the "canon" choices from DA2, which aren't even canon anyways?

Playacting getting stabbed or fried in the dragon's lair? I don't think so. That's an awful lot of stretching to make it fit. There are also others choices that are canon besides Leliana. She was just one example.

I can see you want to cling to the save import system very badly even though it doesn't really do anything. To be honest, I don't see them doing away with it for DA3 (so rejoice! ). At some point, they will have to do away with the save imports. Too many transfers means a lot of possibilities for error (import flags reading incorrectly, corrupted files, a change in gaming consoles, etc).

[Allan Schumacher]

Aulis Vaara wrote...

Then they are poor programmers indeed. If your previous game can read a savefile, than you have a working library for reading those kinds of savefiles. Doesn't take a genius to export and import a library. A first-year computer scientist can do that...

Just to be clear, you are saying that all we would need to do for save import is to copy-pasta the code from the previous game into the new game that dealt with reading and parsing the save files?

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 25 octobre 2012 - 06:05 .

[Realmzmaster]

draken-heart wrote...

sarcastictruths wrote...
The arguments against including save imports seems to be various forms of the save import has very little or no impact on the next installment of the game. However, that is besides the point, whatever ones reasoning for wanting the save import exclude bioware gives you that option. I believe its only fair to include the option to import a save file if that is what you wish.

Agreed

I have no problem with the save import. I have a problem when gamers think that save import should have a profound effect on the game.  As I stated before the best Bioware can do is give nods to some of the choices in the saves or Bioware makes certain choices canon.
If the gamer is okay with a nod to their choices (like a mention in conversation) or a small quest then all is well. A lot of gamers are not content with that and want Bioware to make their choices reflect heavily in the game which is simply not possible

[sarcastictruths]

Realmzmaster wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

sarcastictruths wrote...
The arguments against including save imports seems to be various forms of the save import has very little or no impact on the next installment of the game. However, that is besides the point, whatever ones reasoning for wanting the save import exclude bioware gives you that option. I believe its only fair to include the option to import a save file if that is what you wish.

Agreed

I have no problem with the save import. I have a problem when gamers think that save import should have a profound effect on the game.  As I stated before the best Bioware can do is give nods to some of the choices in the saves or Bioware makes certain choices canon.
If the gamer is okay with a nod to their choices (like a mention in conversation) or a small quest then all is well. A lot of gamers are not content with that and want Bioware to make their choices reflect heavily in the game which is simply not possible

Agreed. In my personal opinion it seems that a number of gamers wished that every little choice they make in a game has a grand impact on the next game. If my character went left in the first game then by gods the the second game should be vastly different then those that didn't go left or the save import is a waste of time *coughs* I might have been a tad dramtic there.