637 réponses à ce sujet

[MillKill]

draken-heart wrote...

You cannot really bring Behtesda games into this conversation, as they are two separate companies. And bladur's Gate is old, older than Bioware even thinking of Imports for their games.

Try again to make me realize that save imports, or anything relating to giving players the power to make the world is  a bad thing.

I can and will bring the Fallout series into the discussion because the advantages it gained by not importing choices applies completely to DA if Bioware would drop the imports. 

Baldur's Gate 2 is one of the greatest games ever made and commonly regarded as Bioware's best. I already pointed out in my previous post the advantages of making a canon set of choices and how it helped improve the game.

You have no power over the world with a save import feature. The world will be almost entirely the same with only cosmetic differences. Save imports render all choices irrelevant, even ones that should matter.

Making a set canon means that half of the possible consequences to your choices can have real impact. Those players that made those choices will be happy and those that didn't will be treated to a stronger story. Even though no import feature was included, the choice that some players made to create the NCR had more impact on the Fallout series than any choice in any Bioware game. Canon choices can matter. Pretending everyone's story needs to be shaped by their decisions in previous games to be good results in meaningless choices. 

[draken-heart]

MillKill wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

You cannot really bring Behtesda games into this conversation, as they are two separate companies. And bladur's Gate is old, older than Bioware even thinking of Imports for their games.

Try again to make me realize that save imports, or anything relating to giving players the power to make the world is  a bad thing.

I can and will bring the Fallout series into the discussion because the advantages it gained by not importing choices applies completely to DA if Bioware would drop the imports. 

Baldur's Gate 2 is one of the greatest games ever made and commonly regarded as Bioware's best. I already pointed out in my previous post the advantages of making a canon set of choices and how it helped improve the game.

You have no power over the world with a save import feature. The world will be almost entirely the same with only cosmetic differences. Save imports render all choices irrelevant, even ones that should matter.

Making a set canon means that half of the possible consequences to your choices can have real impact. Those players that made those choices will be happy and those that didn't will be treated to a stronger story. Even though no import feature was included, the choice that some players made to create the NCR had more impact on the Fallout series than any choice in any Bioware game. Canon choices can matter. Pretending everyone's story needs to be shaped by their decisions in previous games to be good results in meaningless choices. 

Having a set canon for the warden and hawke does nothing either to the choices. They will still not mean anything because the game is not about that, just let it go.

Do you and people like you honesly expect your choices to matter when the game is not about that person who made the choice? I do not think it does matter and therefore imports are fine.

Modifié par draken-heart, 25 octobre 2012 - 09:42 .

[MillKill]

draken-heart wrote...

Ignore BG, It was great but before this debate so i say it has no meaning due to timeframe.

Do not ignore Baldur's Gate. Every point I brought up about how a lack of choice imports helped it would apply equally to Dragon Age. 

[draken-heart]

MillKill wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

Ignore BG, It was great but before this debate so i say it has no meaning due to timeframe.

Do not ignore Baldur's Gate. Every point I brought up about how a lack of choice imports helped it would apply equally to Dragon Age. 

give me one example of a game company that does imports right, as you say. I will point out that bioware is not that company. I will no longer discuss Fallout or BG because 1) I have never played BG 2 and never will because of how old it is, and 2) Fallout is made by Bethesda and the two companies have completely different development styles.

And I keep telling yopu guys to give me reasons of why the imports would be better left out and all you guys say is that it would leave the writers free to do with the game as they want. That does not give me an answer to my question: Why should imports be left out.

[MillKill]

draken-heart wrote...

Having a set canon for the warden and hawke does nothing either to the choices. They will still not mean anything because the game is not about that, just let it go.

Do you and people like you honesly expect your choices to matter when the game is not about that person who made the choice? I do not think it does matter and therefore imports are fine.

The DA series is about Thedas and some of those choices should have big impacts on Thedas: The Urn, Fereldan's rulership, Orzammar's king, the Dark Ritual.

An answer to some of those choices is important. I don't care what decisions Bioware chooses as canon, but any would certainly be better than seeing choices that should have a big impact on the world have no serious impact. 

No serious impact to anything is the inevitable result of continuing to use this feature. 

Modifié par MillKill, 25 octobre 2012 - 10:01 .

[Yobel]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

I disagree. I like the sense of continuity that comes from the save import and I feel it's a good use of resources.

That. I also want developers to put effort into save import. Since they have new engine in the DA III, what I would like is the series of at least to some point animated screens with choices to make from Origins to DA II. Sense of continuity is part of why I play RPG from BioWare.

[sarcastictruths]

MillKill wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

Ignore BG, It was great but before this debate so i say it has no meaning due to timeframe.

Do not ignore Baldur's Gate. Every point I brought up about how a lack of choice imports helped it would apply equally to Dragon Age. 

I have no intention of Ignore Baldur's Gate. If a valid point can be made using an old game then I have no problem with that game being used. And I will never claim that in order to be a good game a game has to have save imports. There are many games I've played which I enjoyed immensly  that didn't have the save game import.

However, from a personally standpoint I don't think the save import of the Dragon Age series or even the Mass effect Trilogy are horrible enough that the best option is to do away with them.

[draken-heart]

MillKill wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

Having a set canon for the warden and hawke does nothing either to the choices. They will still not mean anything because the game is not about that, just let it go.

Do you and people like you honesly expect your choices to matter when the game is not about that person who made the choice? I do not think it does matter and therefore imports are fine.

The DA series is about Thedas and some of those choices should have big impacts on Thedas: The Urn, Fereldan's rulership, Orzammar's king, the Dark Ritual.

An answer to some of those choices is important. I don't care what Bioware decisions Bioware chooses as canon, but any would certainly be better than seeing choices that should have a big impact on the world have no serious impact. 

No serious impact to anything is the inevitable result of continuing to use this feature. 

so, can you expect that, Ferelden's ruler Affects Ferelden, Not Thedas as a whole. The Urn and Orzamar maybe, but it did not affect Kirkwall specifically, so no profound impact needed there. And Morrigan and that child of hers are one, leave it.

[draken-heart]

sarcastictruths wrote...

MillKill wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

Ignore BG, It was great but before this debate so i say it has no meaning due to timeframe.

Do not ignore Baldur's Gate. Every point I brought up about how a lack of choice imports helped it would apply equally to Dragon Age. 

I have no intention of Ignore Baldur's Gate. If a valid point can be made using an old game then I have no problem with that game being used. And I will never claim that in order to be a good game a game has to have save imports. There are many games I've played which I enjoyed immensly  that didn't have the save game import.

However, from a personally standpoint I don't think the save import of the Dragon Age series or even the Mass effect Trilogy are horrible enough that the best option is to do away with them.

This is exactly why i said ot ignore it, they have a good point, but DA is not BG and never will be. Same for ME, it is not BG or Fallout and never will be.

Modifié par draken-heart, 25 octobre 2012 - 09:54 .

[Wulfram]

draken-heart wrote...
Why should imports be left out.

Because it allows the writers to properly address things affected by the choices in previous games, rather than being forced to relegate them to the background or downplay the impact of any choices in order to write a coherent story that works for all possible outcomes.

Because it allows the writers to freely include choices in the current game, rather than being forced to limit the game to things that could be easily imported into the next game.

Because imports use a whole bunch of resources which could be used for other things that don't have such a negative impact on the game..

[sarcastictruths]

draken-heart wrote...

MillKill wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

Having a set canon for the warden and hawke does nothing either to the choices. They will still not mean anything because the game is not about that, just let it go.

Do you and people like you honesly expect your choices to matter when the game is not about that person who made the choice? I do not think it does matter and therefore imports are fine.

The DA series is about Thedas and some of those choices should have big impacts on Thedas: The Urn, Fereldan's rulership, Orzammar's king, the Dark Ritual.

An answer to some of those choices is important. I don't care what Bioware decisions Bioware chooses as canon, but any would certainly be better than seeing choices that should have a big impact on the world have no serious impact. 

No serious impact to anything is the inevitable result of continuing to use this feature. 

so, can you expect that, Ferelden's ruler Affects Ferelden, Not Thedas as a whole. The Urn and Orzamar maybe, but it did not affect Kirkwall specifically, so no profound impact needed there. And Morrigan and that child of hers are one, leave it.

If you destoryed the ashes in the urn quest then the hawker isn't standing around trying to sell 'pinches of the ashes' But, if you save the ashes then he is there. I would say that is a nod to that decison, It might not be as big of one as people might help, but it still is one.

Same with Orzammar if you side with Bhelan you get a quest where you can help a Harromont. Varric will also mention whichever King rules Orzammar in conversation. Again, the impact might not be as big as the player desire.

Then there is Alistair. He shows up at the tavern if you refuse to kill Loghain and kept Alistair alive. At the Viscount's keep if you made him king, and with the Grey Wardens when the Arisok makes his big move. And again, the impact might not be big enough for some players.

[draken-heart]

Wulfram wrote...

draken-heart wrote...
Why should imports be left out.

Because it allows the writers to properly address things affected by the choices in previous games, rather than being forced to relegate them to the background or downplay the impact of any choices in order to write a coherent story that works for all possible outcomes.

Because it allows the writers to freely include choices in the current game, rather than being forced to limit the game to things that could be easily imported into the next game.

Because imports use a whole bunch of resources which could be used for other things that don't have such a negative impact on the game..

Need more detail. How exactly can they address these things affected by save imports, if they do not matter to the setting of the game (Like the dwarves and the Mage-Templar war, Dwarves should not bother with what is going on, tade and all).

Same for the other two, just saying that not including it does this and that does not mean you have a fitting argument.

[MillKill]

draken-heart wrote...


give me one example of a game company that does imports right, as you say. I will point out that bioware is not that company. I will no longer discuss Fallout or BG because 1) I have never played BG 2 and never will because of how old it is, and 2) Fallout is made by Bethesda and the two companies have completely different development styles.

And I keep telling yopu guys to give me reasons of why the imports would be better left out and all you guys say is that it would leave the writers free to do with the game as they want. That does not give me an answer to my question: Why should imports be left out.

Why would I give you an example of a gaming company that does imports right when there are none and never will be? My whole point is that they can't be done right without unlimited development resources, which is just not happening. I have given examples of companies that made a set canon right, which is what I'm proposing Bioware do.

I will continue discussing Fallout because there is nothing about the advantages of a set canon in that series that would not apply equally well in DA. The fact that you don't like to listen to examples that don't buttress your points does not make those examples invalid.

As for your last paragraph, I don't know what mnean. Myself and the other people who have made arguments against imports have given plenty of reasons. You stated one of them in your last paragraph and then immediatey said we haven't answered your question in the very next sentence. I'll reiterate them again: They handcuff writers into making a weaker story, force choices that should be impactful into meaninglessness, and require an investment of resources that could instead be used to make the game better for everyone.

[draken-heart]

MillKill wrote...

draken-heart wrote...


give me one example of a game company that does imports right, as you say. I will point out that bioware is not that company. I will no longer discuss Fallout or BG because 1) I have never played BG 2 and never will because of how old it is, and 2) Fallout is made by Bethesda and the two companies have completely different development styles.

And I keep telling yopu guys to give me reasons of why the imports would be better left out and all you guys say is that it would leave the writers free to do with the game as they want. That does not give me an answer to my question: Why should imports be left out.

Why would I give you an example of a gaming company that does imports right when there are none and never will be? My whole point is that they can't be done right without unlimited development resources, which is just not happening. I have given examples of companies that made a set canon right, which is what I'm proposing Bioware do.

I will continue discussing Fallout because there is nothing about the advantages of a set canon in that series that would not apply equally well in DA. The fact that you don't like to listen to examples that don't buttress your points does not make those examples invalid.

As for your last paragraph, I don't know what mnean. Myself and the other people who have made arguments against imports have given plenty of reasons. You stated one of them in your last paragraph and then immediatey said we haven't answered your question in the very next sentence. I'll reiterate them again: They handcuff writers into making a weaker story, force choices that should be impactful into meaninglessness, and require an investment of resources that could instead be used to make the game better for everyone.

The itallics is what i am confused about, how does it handcuff writers when it is in the Background, and they are focusing on the current game? And how is creating a set canon any different or better when it forces the writers to the very thing importing a save can do?

I see that you gain nothing from either one, so I am confused:blink:

Modifié par draken-heart, 25 octobre 2012 - 10:08 .

[MillKill]

sarcastictruths wrote...


If you destoryed the ashes in the urn quest then the hawker isn't standing around trying to sell 'pinches of the ashes' But, if you save the ashes then he is there. I would say that is a nod to that decison, It might not be as big of one as people might help, but it still is one.

Same with Orzammar if you side with Bhelan you get a quest where you can help a Harromont. Varric will also mention whichever King rules Orzammar in conversation. Again, the impact might not be as big as the player desire.

Then there is Alistair. He shows up at the tavern if you refuse to kill Loghain and kept Alistair alive. At the Viscount's keep if you made him king, and with the Grey Wardens when the Arisok makes his big move. And again, the impact might not be big enough for some players.

This illustrates my point about imports making choices meaninglessness. A small cameo, a few altered lines, and some irrelevant sidequests are all that we'll ever see from big choices. It also means that Orzammar's ruler and the ruler(s) of Fereldan will never be allowed to have an important role again.

Even in Mass Effect, the supposedly big choices had no impact. Bioware has failed to make the import feature's benefits outweigh it's costs three times in a row. I have no reason to doubt it wil continue to fail to do so in DA3.

[milena87]

MillKill wrote...

I'll reiterate them again: They handcuff writers into making a weaker story, force choices that should be impactful into meaninglessness, and require an investment of resources that could instead be used to make the game better for everyone.

I agree.

The problem with imports, as I've come to see with ME2&3 and DA2, is that resources don't allow for our big choices to matter. The developers will ignore or dilute some of our choices regardless, so why not take the next step and remove imports completely?

We could maybe decide some trivial things about our previous characters before the start of the game (like sex or possible LI) and let the developers decide which decisions to make canon. This way we could at least see some consequences, instead of getting almost no consequences at all.

Each game could give us an epilogue showing the impact of our character in the world, a sort of "what if" scenario. That way we could see how some choices would play out, but a canon would be chosen for the next game.

Modifié par milena87, 25 octobre 2012 - 10:10 .

[sarcastictruths]

draken-heart wrote...

MillKill wrote...

draken-heart wrote...


give me one example of a game company that does imports right, as you say. I will point out that bioware is not that company. I will no longer discuss Fallout or BG because 1) I have never played BG 2 and never will because of how old it is, and 2) Fallout is made by Bethesda and the two companies have completely different development styles.

And I keep telling yopu guys to give me reasons of why the imports would be better left out and all you guys say is that it would leave the writers free to do with the game as they want. That does not give me an answer to my question: Why should imports be left out.

Why would I give you an example of a gaming company that does imports right when there are none and never will be? My whole point is that they can't be done right without unlimited development resources, which is just not happening. I have given examples of companies that made a set canon right, which is what I'm proposing Bioware do.

I will continue discussing Fallout because there is nothing about the advantages of a set canon in that series that would not apply equally well in DA. The fact that you don't like to listen to examples that don't buttress your points does not make those examples invalid.

As for your last paragraph, I don't know what mnean. Myself and the other people who have made arguments against imports have given plenty of reasons. You stated one of them in your last paragraph and then immediatey said we haven't answered your question in the very next sentence. I'll reiterate them again: They handcuff writers into making a weaker story, force choices that should be impactful into meaninglessness, and require an investment of resources that could instead be used to make the game better for everyone.

I give up, this thread seems to be right but it also seems to be wrong...

The entire notion that a game would be better if the saved imports was removed is just speculation. We can't know this for certain unless two different copies of the game are made. One where save import are included, and one where they are not. Sure, certain games storylines are said to get better when the save import is removed, but that is personal opinion. Majority of the time I find my taste vastly differ from the critics.

Sure, the save imports has its flaws. The fact that not every choice you made has an immense impact on the next game seems to be a big one, or rather should I say the choices the player deem important. In the end, it is Bioware that decides which choice is important, and when and how to include that choice in the next game. Just as it is Bioware choice to get rid of save import.

[draken-heart]

MillKill wrote...

sarcastictruths wrote...


If you destoryed the ashes in the urn quest then the hawker isn't standing around trying to sell 'pinches of the ashes' But, if you save the ashes then he is there. I would say that is a nod to that decison, It might not be as big of one as people might help, but it still is one.

Same with Orzammar if you side with Bhelan you get a quest where you can help a Harromont. Varric will also mention whichever King rules Orzammar in conversation. Again, the impact might not be as big as the player desire.

Then there is Alistair. He shows up at the tavern if you refuse to kill Loghain and kept Alistair alive. At the Viscount's keep if you made him king, and with the Grey Wardens when the Arisok makes his big move. And again, the impact might not be big enough for some players.

This illustrates my point about imports making choices meaninglessness. A small cameo, a few altered lines, and some irrelevant sidequests are all that we'll ever see from big choices. It also means that Orzammar's ruler and the ruler(s) of Fereldan will never be allowed to have an important role again.

Even in Mass Effect, the supposedly big choices had no impact. Bioware has failed to make the import feature's benefits outweigh it's costs three times in a row. I have no reason to doubt it wil continue to fail to do so in DA3.

That is the best they can do and still develop the game to the level they can say is going gold level. IS this a problem?

[draken-heart]

milena87 wrote...

MillKill wrote...

I'll reiterate them again: They handcuff writers into making a weaker story, force choices that should be impactful into meaninglessness, and require an investment of resources that could instead be used to make the game better for everyone.

I agree.

The problem with imports, as I've come to see with ME2&3 and DA2, is that resources don't allow for our big choices to matter. The developers will ignore or dilute some of our choices regardless, so why not take the next step and remove imports completely?

We could maybe decide some trivial things about our previous characters before the start of the game (like sex or possible LI) and let the developers decide which decisions to make canon. This way we could at least see some consequences, instead of getting almost no consequences at all.

Each game could give us an epilogue showing the impact of our character in the world, a sort of "what if" scenario. That way we could see how some choices would play out, but a canon would be chosen for the next game.

Why not go a little better and allow us to choose some of the major choices (Ferelden's ruler(s), King of Orzamar, Etc.)?

[sarcastictruths]

MillKill wrote...

sarcastictruths wrote...


If you destoryed the ashes in the urn quest then the hawker isn't standing around trying to sell 'pinches of the ashes' But, if you save the ashes then he is there. I would say that is a nod to that decison, It might not be as big of one as people might help, but it still is one.

Same with Orzammar if you side with Bhelan you get a quest where you can help a Harromont. Varric will also mention whichever King rules Orzammar in conversation. Again, the impact might not be as big as the player desire.

Then there is Alistair. He shows up at the tavern if you refuse to kill Loghain and kept Alistair alive. At the Viscount's keep if you made him king, and with the Grey Wardens when the Arisok makes his big move. And again, the impact might not be big enough for some players.

This illustrates my point about imports making choices meaninglessness. A small cameo, a few altered lines, and some irrelevant sidequests are all that we'll ever see from big choices. It also means that Orzammar's ruler and the ruler(s) of Fereldan will never be allowed to have an important role again.

Even in Mass Effect, the supposedly big choices had no impact. Bioware has failed to make the import feature's benefits outweigh it's costs three times in a row. I have no reason to doubt it wil continue to fail to do so in DA3.

The small cameo is enough for me. I don't expect these ' big choices' to have a profound impact on the next game. In fact, I personally believe that big choices are sometimes met with small chances in the future.

[draken-heart]

sarcastictruths wrote...

MillKill wrote...

sarcastictruths wrote...


If you destoryed the ashes in the urn quest then the hawker isn't standing around trying to sell 'pinches of the ashes' But, if you save the ashes then he is there. I would say that is a nod to that decison, It might not be as big of one as people might help, but it still is one.

Same with Orzammar if you side with Bhelan you get a quest where you can help a Harromont. Varric will also mention whichever King rules Orzammar in conversation. Again, the impact might not be as big as the player desire.

Then there is Alistair. He shows up at the tavern if you refuse to kill Loghain and kept Alistair alive. At the Viscount's keep if you made him king, and with the Grey Wardens when the Arisok makes his big move. And again, the impact might not be big enough for some players.

This illustrates my point about imports making choices meaninglessness. A small cameo, a few altered lines, and some irrelevant sidequests are all that we'll ever see from big choices. It also means that Orzammar's ruler and the ruler(s) of Fereldan will never be allowed to have an important role again.

Even in Mass Effect, the supposedly big choices had no impact. Bioware has failed to make the import feature's benefits outweigh it's costs three times in a row. I have no reason to doubt it wil continue to fail to do so in DA3.

The small cameo is enough for me. I don't expect these ' big choices' to have a profound impact on the next game. In fact, I personally believe that big choices are sometimes met with small chances in the future.

Their minds are set on having Imports removed when it is likely that the set canon will end up being the same as import canon, merely referenced.

Let's look at fallout, Since MillKill wants to so badly, there are exactly two canon choices that are represented in the game New Vegas, that I know of, that actually meant something to that game: The creation o fthe NCR and Followers of the Appocalypse still around. Nothing of the other endings I know of are refrenced in the way those two are. they chose those two things to make canon and dropped everything else as far as I can tell.

Modifié par draken-heart, 25 octobre 2012 - 10:24 .

[sarcastictruths]

draken-heart wrote...

sarcastictruths wrote...

MillKill wrote...

sarcastictruths wrote...


If you destoryed the ashes in the urn quest then the hawker isn't standing around trying to sell 'pinches of the ashes' But, if you save the ashes then he is there. I would say that is a nod to that decison, It might not be as big of one as people might help, but it still is one.

Same with Orzammar if you side with Bhelan you get a quest where you can help a Harromont. Varric will also mention whichever King rules Orzammar in conversation. Again, the impact might not be as big as the player desire.

Then there is Alistair. He shows up at the tavern if you refuse to kill Loghain and kept Alistair alive. At the Viscount's keep if you made him king, and with the Grey Wardens when the Arisok makes his big move. And again, the impact might not be big enough for some players.

This illustrates my point about imports making choices meaninglessness. A small cameo, a few altered lines, and some irrelevant sidequests are all that we'll ever see from big choices. It also means that Orzammar's ruler and the ruler(s) of Fereldan will never be allowed to have an important role again.

Even in Mass Effect, the supposedly big choices had no impact. Bioware has failed to make the import feature's benefits outweigh it's costs three times in a row. I have no reason to doubt it wil continue to fail to do so in DA3.

The small cameo is enough for me. I don't expect these ' big choices' to have a profound impact on the next game. In fact, I personally believe that big choices are sometimes met with small chances in the future.

Their minds are set on having Imports removed when it is likely that the set canon will end up being the same as import canon, merely referenced.

It would appear so.

[MillKill]

draken-heart wrote...


I give up, this thread seems to be right but it also seems to be wrong... The itallics is what i am confused about, how does it handcuff writers when it is in the Background, and they are focusing on the current game? And how is creating a set canon any different or better when it forces the writers to the very thing importing a save can do?

Writing dialogue, recording it, editing it, doing cinematic work, designing gameplay around it, coding it and bugtesting everything are all expensive processes that require an investment of time, labor, and money. These development resources are not unlimited. Having to do all this to account for previous choices in a major way is tough because it means you need to do it all at least twice. This means that, if the save import is included, Bioware has to devote significant resources to things not every player will even see. 

If a save import is included, it is a better use of resources to make the impacts of each choice smaller such as a few altered lines, small sidequests, and brief cameos.

If a set canon is chosen, Bioware can devote it's reources to making reaction to one set of choices much more impactful instead of spreading themselves thin trying to accomodate everybody. This means previous plotlines and characters can have major roles instead of being pushed to the sidelines.

[MillKill]

draken-heart wrote...


Their minds are set on having Imports removed when it is likely that the set canon will end up being the same as import canon, merely referenced.

Even if a set canon was chosen and choices were given the same level of impact as an imported save, I'd still prefer no import. Development resources that would have gone into those extra versions of cameos can instead be used to make the game better for everybody in other areas.

[draken-heart]

MillKill wrote...

draken-heart wrote...


Their minds are set on having Imports removed when it is likely that the set canon will end up being the same as import canon, merely referenced.

Even if a set canon was chosen and choices were given the same level of impact as an imported save, I'd still prefer no import. Development resources that would have gone into those extra versions of cameos can instead be used to make the game better for everybody in other areas.

As I have said before, I do not care if direct imports are in or if I have to recreate the game world from scratch, but I guess i can deal with a set canon if they drop the canon as close to non-existence as it can without going byebye.
 Some super-vague comment in other words, like "Hawke rose to power and was in the middle of the events that started the war" or "The hero of Ferelden was a mage (put race, gender her) romancing (Put LI here) and defeated the blight)

Modifié par draken-heart, 25 octobre 2012 - 10:29 .