143 réponses à ce sujet

[Reznore57]

I like the epilogue in DA:O.
But not in ME3 , mostly I didn't like the ending , but it seems a bit off .

I think DA:O done it better , I like the fact that you had a playable ending .At the party , talking to everyone was really nice.
Goodbyes in the middle of a disaster feels always rushed for me.

In DA3 , if our pc doesn't die a cruel and painful death ..I'd like that again.
Just a nice moment talking with our companions when they tell you what they're going to do next.
I missed that in DA2 , when i found out,trying to imagine my Hawke 's future ,that i wasn't sure what my companions were up to.
We knew of their emotional state by the end , but little about their projects.

[Blastback]

David Gaider wrote...

Caiden012 wrote...
No not really. All I am saying is that saying "we'll see" at the end of the post tells everyone that there is a chance it will happen. There is really no hidden meaning to what I am trying to say. You assume too much.

It got some peoples hopes up and now they are down. That is all that happened.

Four months ago, the decision had not yet been conclusively made.

 Or, far worse, used as evidence in the future that we must have already known the answer was "no" and were simply lying at the time? If so, that's disheartening if hardly surprising.

Well, lets be fair, there has been some evidence of that sort of thing happeing in the past.  When players asked about a toolset in DA2, for months we were told that it would come down to if you all had the time to put into it.  Then eventually Priestly said that there had never been much of a chance of getting one, because you used 3rd party tools yourselves.

And then there's the effects of multiplayer on ME3....

[Nragedreaper]

It's not about text or cinematics, its about content. I liked Origins ending, DA2 ending, and ME2 ending. I find it funny that I hate both ME3 endings. The quality of the team responsible for Dragon Age is obvious compared to ME. The Dragon Age team has always left something to the imagination, whether it be, where Morrigan disappeared to in DAO or Where the warden/Hawke went at the end of DA2. The ME team seems to feel an overwhelming urge to control the story, so they don't let the player use their imagination. So it's not about delivery, but the content delivered.

[KingRoxas]

Kingroxas wrote...

The longer and more detailed epilogue the better.

[Perlicka]

KENNY4753 wrote...

I don't know why BW wasted the time taking those random pictures but couldn't even throw in a paragraph explaining it and giving detail.

The Text ending for DA:O and Awakening were great. I enjoyed reading them. That way we got some closure.

can't agree more

[David Gaider]

Blastback wrote...
Well, lets be fair, there has been some evidence of that sort of thing happeing in the past.  When players asked about a toolset in DA2, for months we were told that it would come down to if you all had the time to put into it.  Then eventually Priestly said that there had never been much of a chance of getting one, because you used 3rd party tools yourselves.

And every time the toolset was brought up, obstacles like the 3rd party tools were brought up. And yet we said it remained up in the air because we were indeed trying to find a way to resolve those difficulties. We weren't filled with hope, no, but the possibility remained.

Should we have not said so? For all the fans here constantly telling us that we should clue them in on the "maybes" of development, and that they can be trusted not to take them as iron-clad promises, it's sometimes hard not to get the opposite impression.

[mousestalker]

David Gaider wrote...

Blastback wrote...
Well, lets be fair, there has been some evidence of that sort of thing happeing in the past.  When players asked about a toolset in DA2, for months we were told that it would come down to if you all had the time to put into it.  Then eventually Priestly said that there had never been much of a chance of getting one, because you used 3rd party tools yourselves.

And every time the toolset was brought up, obstacles like the 3rd party tools were brought up. And yet we said it remained up in the air because we were indeed trying to find a way to resolve those difficulties. We weren't filled with hope, no, but the possibility remained.

Should we have not said so? For all the fans here constantly telling us that we should clue them in on the "maybes" of development, and that they can be trusted not to take them as iron-clad promises, it's sometimes hard not to get the opposite impression.

Perhaps y'all should adopt the magic 8 ball answers as a template?

[Fast Jimmy]

David Gaider wrote...

Blastback wrote...
Well, lets be fair, there has been some evidence of that sort of thing happeing in the past.  When players asked about a toolset in DA2, for months we were told that it would come down to if you all had the time to put into it.  Then eventually Priestly said that there had never been much of a chance of getting one, because you used 3rd party tools yourselves.

And every time the toolset was brought up, obstacles like the 3rd party tools were brought up. And yet we said it remained up in the air because we were indeed trying to find a way to resolve those difficulties. We weren't filled with hope, no, but the possibility remained.

Should we have not said so? For all the fans here constantly telling us that we should clue them in on the "maybes" of development, and that they can be trusted not to take them as iron-clad promises, it's sometimes hard not to get the opposite impression.

Between every BSN thread, Twitter post and convention presentation, there are going to be people who hang on the wrong word or phrase and then will get their feelings hurt later. The only conceivable way you could avoid this would be to filter every single word sent out through a PR division (which still probably wouldn't work) or to shut down all communication across the board. 

I'd rather hear what Bioware's plans and ideas are for their games, rather than have you all clam up for fear of misleading anyone. 

All that aside (and to get more on topic), I think DA:O was near-perfection in terms of ending structure. We were given choices about the endgame (DR, who to sacrifice, what boon we wanted) that didn't send the franchise off into radically different directions for no real reason at all. We were given time to have inspirational talks with our companions before the big battle, and then to talk to them about what the future holds for them after we won. And then the text epilogues gave us glimpses into the consequences and future of our choices, a type of catharsis for all of the decisions made in the game, making us feel like the time spent doing anything besides the main plot wasn't total filler.

The more choices you can reflect in the ending, the more replay value the game is going to appear to have. And the more inexpensive you can make these endings, the more you can do (at least in theory). Text with little to no voice or animation would mean you could, concpetually, touch on nearly every decision and permeance possible.

You've already set the expectation up the epilogue slides aren't part of the canon, so I'd say just have fun with it. Tell all of the crazy outcomes and possibilities your heart desires and then don't heed them if you don't want to in future games. Let the story work for you, don't make yourself work for the story.

[nightscrawl]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

... I think DA:O was near-perfection in terms of ending structure. We were given choices about the endgame (DR, who to sacrifice, what boon we wanted) that didn't send the franchise off into radically different directions for no real reason at all.

Previously David mentioned not having epilogue slides (if present in DA3) cast too far into the future, and I agree with that. I really would prefer to not have my character be said to walk off into the sunset if there will be an expansion or further DLC where I use the same character.

You've already set the expectation up the epilogue slides aren't part of the canon, so I'd say just have fun with it. Tell all of the crazy outcomes and possibilities your heart desires and then don't heed them if you don't want to in future games. Let the story work for you, don't make yourself work for the story.

I would like to agree with you on this, I really would, but come on. You know these forums. There are continually posts here referencing Leliana's decapitation, when that was just a combat finisher. I've seen several threads reference the epilogue slides in relation to the Chantry and also Morrigan. Despite being told that they are just "rumor and supposition" numerous times, by devs and other posters, the same problems persist.

I don't need to wonder why the devs might want to avoid a potential headache and just not have them at all. Although I do think DA2's ending swung too far in the opposite direction...

Modifié par nightscrawl, 22 octobre 2012 - 02:40 .

[Pedrak]

Nothing WRONG with them per se, but...

...they feel narratively inconsistent with the (now) mainly cinematic tone of Bio games. If we get a deluge of cutscenes while playing the game (even taking the control of the scene away from the player, see the Kai Leng duels in ME3), they might as well make the effort to give us a compelling cinematic epilogue, showing what slideshows usually tell - the epilogue is actually a better place for long cutscenes than the rest of the game, I'd argue.

Show, don't tell.

In fact, the cutscene equivalent of the DAO text ending (which, incidentally, I liked) - ex. SHOW Morrigan walking away, alone, maybe looking back with regret; SHOW Leliana travelling; SHOW Alistair as a king... all in a cinematic montage, with a nice soundtrack playing, would be the best solution for me.

So, nothing wrong with reading (in fact, it's my favourite hobby). But, as has been noted, videogames are becoming an increasingly visual medium. You can't say "voiced PC, dialogue wheel and numerous cutscenes where the player doesn't get to choose what to do are necessary for a more cinematic approach", but also "hey, for the ending let's just have walls of text explaining what happened. It's not a movie, you know." Sorry, but you can't have it both ways.

Still, a cheap, simple (but effective) solution like text endings is certainly better than the obnoxious 30-seconds cliffhanger ending done with a cutscene, though.


In fact, I suspect many people who favour the text endings approach over the cutscene one do so because the former has been done well several times (ex. DAO), while the latter hasn't.

Modifié par Pedrak, 22 octobre 2012 - 03:18 .

[jackofalltrades456]

David Gaider wrote...

Caiden012 wrote...
No not really. All I am saying is that saying "we'll see" at the end of the post tells everyone that there is a chance it will happen. There is really no hidden meaning to what I am trying to say. You assume too much.

It got some peoples hopes up and now they are down. That is all that happened.

Four months ago, the decision had not yet been conclusively made.

What you are indeed telling me is we shouldn't tell anyone when there's a "maybe"-- like "we're considering doing text epilogues"-- because that's evidently just teasing you and stringing you along? Or, far worse, used as evidence in the future that we must have already known the answer was "no" and were simply lying at the time? If so, that's disheartening if hardly surprising.

Well I've been rather skeptical of this whole "we'll going to bring all these features back from Origins and combine them with Dragon Age 2!" Yet, so far every feature you've announced has been purely Dragon Age 2 features like iconic appearances, the dialogue wheel, voiced protagonist, set human protagonist with no playable Origins, focus on cinematics . Yet, with Origins feature you refuse to comment or simply state that your not going to bring that feature back at all.

I'm sorry, but hearing no playable races or Origins has only increased my skepticism that you're going to deliver on this statement at all.

Modifié par jackofalltrades456, 22 octobre 2012 - 03:39 .

[Sable Rhapsody]

jackofalltrades456 wrote...
Well I've been rather skeptical of this whole "we'll going to bring all these features back from Origins and combine them with Dragon Age 2!" Yet, so far every feature you've announced has been purely Dragon Age 2 features like iconic appearances, the dialogue wheel, voiced protagonist, set human protagonist with no playable Origins, focus on cinematics . Yet, with Origins feature you refuse to comment or simply state that your not going to bring that feature back at all.

I'm sorry, but hearing no playable races or Origins has only increased my skepticism that you're going to deliver on this statement at all.

We also still know next-to-nothing about the game.  If in a list of say, a hundred features, fifty turn out to be from Origins and fifty from 2, and we've only heard of the three or so features from 2, is that at all representative?

Modifié par Sable Rhapsody, 22 octobre 2012 - 06:59 .

[Blastback]

David Gaider wrote...

Blastback wrote...
Well, lets be fair, there has been some evidence of that sort of thing happeing in the past.  When players asked about a toolset in DA2, for months we were told that it would come down to if you all had the time to put into it.  Then eventually Priestly said that there had never been much of a chance of getting one, because you used 3rd party tools yourselves.

And every time the toolset was brought up, obstacles like the 3rd party tools were brought up. And yet we said it remained up in the air because we were indeed trying to find a way to resolve those difficulties. We weren't filled with hope, no, but the possibility remained.

Should we have not said so? For all the fans here constantly telling us that we should clue them in on the "maybes" of development, and that they can be trusted not to take them as iron-clad promises, it's sometimes hard not to get the opposite impression.

Okay, I never saw any mention of the third party tools being an issue until Priestly confirmed that a toolset wasn't happening.  Prior to that every time the tool set came up I only saw Bioware saying that it would depend on if you all had the time.

That said, I may merely have missed a post where you all acknoledged the 3rd party issues.  If that's the case, then I'll apologise for sounding accusatory.  

Heck I'll apologise for coming across acusatory at all even if it isn't the case.     It's just that the way I remember things,  (which could be the problem right then and there:P)  is that the explanation wasn't a," hey we did out best but it just didn't pan out", but rather a "remeber when we told you it might happen?  Yeah, it was never gonna happen"

Or maybe I'm getting my memories mixed up with the ME3 multiplayer issue.

Modifié par Blastback, 22 octobre 2012 - 09:16 .

[demont0]

David Gaider wrote...

Burnouts3s3 wrote...
To which, i suggestion another solution: why not simply have text endings, based on choices, akin to Jade Empire and Dragon Age: Origins?

It's something we're considering-- both in terms of the text endings (as in DAO) and a playable denouement after the climax. For the text endings, it's possible they could be voiced-- and I think, if we did them, we'd want to make sure they didn't cast too far into the future as those are the things that are most likely to be contradicted when plans change in development. But it's definitely a possibility.

Why not the best of both?

A cinematic ending, to finish off the main story. Wherein what happens to the main character and companions, and the conclusion of the main story, are rounded up in a nice cinematic. 
Then, text endings after the ciematic, that explains what happened to all the litle things. For example: what happened to a kingdom if you picked leader 1 or 2(such as Bhelan or Harrowmmont), what happened to a group of people who you decided to help/not help, what did [insert npc here] do when you helped here do[insert quest of choice].

those were just examples of the kinds of choices we have had in previous DA games, and all of which don't affect the 'main' story's end, but had impacts depending on what we picked. Did it matter at the very end of DA:O, if we picked Bhelan over Harrowmont? not really, so that choice didn't need to be included in a cinematic ending, but a text ending on what happened does add something to the game.

[Plaintiff]

Wow. El-oh-el at all the people who think that dislike of text-slide endings means someone can't read. Especially given that the individuals expressing this opinion are doing so in a text-based format.

It's pretty simple: I and others want to see the consequences occur in the game. They should have an effect before the ending, not after. I want to see the immediate impact my choices have in the game I am playing. I don't want or need to know what happened a year or more later, especially if it means the writers will be restricted when it comes to future development. If I'm not playing it myself, it does not matter. Save that stuff for a possible sequel, or put it in secondary media like a novel or a comic.

The text slides in Origins were largely pointless. If they dealt solely with the main characters, and kept a degree of ambiguity, that might be okay. But I don't need to know the life story of every single sad-sack I helped along the way. I don't care which faceless cutout Teagan married, I don't care what happened to Brother Burkel or to Dagna or to Bevan. I'm not going to get to play these stories, so what's the point? The epilogue slides neglect the majority of the incidental questgivers anyway, but I don't see anyone complaining that Wade and Herren didn't get "closure". And what about Ruck's mother? Or Zerlinda and her child?

DA2's ending was just fine. Perfect even. Knowing that Hawke stays with his lover (if he has one) while the other comapnions go their separate ways is all the payoff I need, and the fact that Hawke's whereabouts are currently unknown doesn't detract from that. Plenty of novels, films and yes, games, end the exact same way, with the hero riding off into the sunset, presumably to have more adventures. A story does not lack closure just because we don't know every single detail of the protagonist's future life.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 23 octobre 2012 - 04:54 .

[Arppis]

Go for text endings, I kinda like them and they can include a lot more... well text.

...I mean context.

But I have to admit, Mass Effect 3 ending proved that video games aren't ready for movie-like endings where everything isn't explained to death. Because of player reaction.

Modifié par Arppis, 23 octobre 2012 - 06:11 .

[TEWR]

Epilogue slides in the vein of Origins where it tries to say what happens far in the future are really only good for a standalone game, IMO. I don't even think Epilogue slides that don't say what happens far in the future would work, either.  

I guess it really depends on the content of the game itself.

But all that said, the DA series would be better served by choices that change how the game plays out, resolve themselves in-game, and eliminate the need for importing -- save for a few major choices. As it's an ongoing series, if we saw the ramifications of our actions in the same game, that's what works best IMO.

[Allan Schumacher]

It's pretty simple: I and others want to see the consequences occur in the game. They should have an effect before the ending, not after. I want to see the immediate impact my choices have in the game I am playing. I don't want or need to know what happened a year or more later, especially if it means the writers will be restricted when it comes to future development. If I'm not playing it myself, it does not matter. Save that stuff for a possible sequel, or put it in secondary media like a novel or a comic.

The problem with immediate consequences is sometimes they don't make sense. My favourite resolution in DAO was learning about how Harrowmont's archaic ways is ultimately much worse for Orzammar, which isn't really something that can be experienced immediately. That said, it could still be done in game, if just done differently.

[TEWR]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

My favourite resolution in DAO was learning about how Harrowmont's archaic ways is ultimately much worse for Orzammar, which isn't really something that can be experienced immediately

As the resident self-titled Dwarven expert, I'd dispute that. But as it's only tangentially related -- and you even said that it could still be done -- it's not something I'd delve into, though I do have some ideas.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 23 octobre 2012 - 06:48 .

[Allan Schumacher]

Are you disputing that it can't be experienced immediately? Or just my interpretation of the consequences of Harrowmont being leader?

My point was more just that some consequences shouldn't really be felt for some time.

[TEWR]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Are you disputing that it can't be experienced immediately? Or just my interpretation of the consequences of Harrowmont being leader?

The former, though I wouldn't say it should happen immediately, but it could still be seen in-game.

Allan Schumacher wrote...

My point was more just that some consequences shouldn't really be felt for some time.

I agree, as it ultimately comes down to this question: "What is the content of the game?"

If the choice is something akin to Feynriel going to Tevinter, that's something whose consequences cannot be seen in-game to their fullest potential. 

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 23 octobre 2012 - 06:57 .

[milena87]

Arppis wrote...

But I have to admit, Mass Effect 3 ending proved that video games aren't ready for movie-like endings where everything isn't explained to death. Because of player reaction. 

Nah, it's just that many expected a better and consistent ending. If I see a good movie with a terrible ending what do I lose? 2 hours of my life? In ME I spent more than two hours on the character creation alone.

Anyway, I like text endings, but I agree with others that they work better with standalone games (could each DA game be a standalone game?).
I just hope that post-game content won't get canceled again (if planned, of course). I kinda feel that Hawke's story wasn't really complete, while the Warden's journey was dragged on for too long (how many things can one person do?!).

[Joccaren]

I don't mind, so long as the same level of detail is shown.

A cinematic detailing how the Dwarfs fared after DA:O would have been fine, so long as it kept as much detail as the text ending did. I don't want an ME3 styled ending where it really just amounted to "People lived happily ever after/didn't, the end" for each group. I want to know at least some of the nuances of what happened.
If done in the ME3 style, I would have had Duncan saying how we prevailed over the blight, whilst a picture showed me a vague scene of Orzammar. Maybe its less populated if you chose Harrowmont, and filled with traders if you chose [Forgot how to spell his name]. You'd need to see both to understand the significance of it, and even then you wouldn't know about things like assassination attempts that happened. When I go through a story, I don't mind having to imagine things - but I'd like a decent base to my imagination. Things like the rumours about the Chantry planning an exalted march against Orzammar give you an idea of whats happening, whilst at the same time leaving the details to a future game/your imagination. Maybe they do start that march in DA3, maybe they decide against it as they have bigger issues. Maybe it was only a rumour, and nothing more. Leave some things to the imagination, but give a general idea of how they panned out. That's how it should be done.

[NRieh]

The ME team seems to feel an overwhelming urge to control the story, so they don't let the player use their imagination. So it's not about delivery, but the content delivered.

Sorry...wut? Player imagination and headcanons were ALL that kept ME universe from falling into the Void. We had NOTHING but our imagination, from release and right up to EC. Nothing about state of universe, nothing about companions, characters and locations (including Earth). And I'd not say that EC fixed much of it.

In fact - ME EC showed how awkward may an attempt to mix text and cinematic endings look. Cinematics show "current" events, yet they follow slides and text (it was voiced, but still - it was just same text) which describes something big and distant. N7 chestpiece scene after rebuilding whole the galaxy. Memorial and take-off scenes out of any reasonalbe timeline. Probably, one of EC issues was that it did not say much about events, but had those pathetic speeches instead. It did not feel any personal, but it also was not that epic. But it did leave you less frustrated than initial "endings". Just because some info about the universe (even put in a wrong order) better than no info at all.

So, imo, texts (voiced or not) may be a good way to show some distant big events, and cinematics may show some of "right now", but they must be placed in very right order, without breaking storytelling timeline and ruining immersion. I hope DA team knows about it.

DA2 had best ending I can imagine for this game. And it was, actually, "text" one, but told and illustrated by Varric. And followed by awesomely fitting amazing soundtrack.

DAO mixed things right - it had those chats in a throne room, which gave you some short pause before "riding into the sunset" and closures to companion arcs. And those chats were followed by "distant" text pieces.

Modifié par Nrieh, 23 octobre 2012 - 07:31 .