333 réponses à ce sujet

[dimeonwu]

VGFM wrote...

Bumping, because I see Bioware respond to much less important topics and this issue needs to be addressed.

I said before that the collectors were lopsidedly difficult against adepts and non-dodging classes, but I'm beginning to think they're at least somewhat OP vs. everyone. The Turian Ghost Infiltrator is probably the best faction against Collectors (probably because he's pretty much the best class in the game), but I wouldn't even say that he has an advantage against the Collectors, even if he's using a Harrier with piercing and grenade capacity.

Tech classes have an advantage against Geth, Biotic classes have an advantage vs. Reapers, and a variety of classes have an advantage against Cerberus, but no class really has an advantage against Collectors. At best, there are certain classes that can minimize their own weaknesses against the collectors, either by foregoing powers with cooldowns or using shield-restoring abilities like Stim packs as a crutch. But even these extreme measures do not grant you an advantage against Collectors, they just make Collectors a little less overwhelming.

Scions in particular are the problem, because in many situations there's literally nothing you can do to stop them.  You can flank them, bust open their hump, stagger them, aim for their head, cloak, pop an ammo pack AND stim pack all at the same time (and have your thumb on the stim pack and op pack buttons just in case you get hit), and try to run for cover at the first sign of trouble, and they can still recover to three-shot you with little to no warning, leaving you nable to do anything.  I would know because this happened to me in a silver match, of all things, and the situation I was in met all of the above criteria.  I flanked him, outsmarted him, got the first shot in, staggered him, and aimed in all of the right places, and yet he still won, despite me outsmarting him, out-maneuvering him, outgunning him, and using a completely broken kit.  To top it all off, he wasn't even possessed.  This is not good game design.

Word!

[Xaijin]

sc_ajk29 wrote...

Xaijin wrote...

No type SHOULD have advantage against the collectors.

The entire point of the faction's passive attributes is ability and power refutation, particularly against biotics. The codex says rather plainly why biotics give reapers a bad day, and so do Javik's recollections. No big surprise Collectors are tailor made to make that not happen.

Moreover, typless classes like soldiers and melee specialists can absolutely wreck collectors and so can elemental techs.

And if I want to play as an Adept or Vanguard?

Pretty simple. Shoot the swarms.



Hmm. Asari adept without full rank BEs, yet somehow 100+K V. Collectors is possible despite all the insistent posting otherwise.

soldiers are a type

Except GE isn't a soldier and neither is the batarian sentinel and neither is the demolisher, and neither is the volus engineer or GI. or SI. or TI.

[Zorinho20_CRO]

dimeonwu wrote...

VGFM wrote...

Bumping, because I see Bioware respond to much less important topics and this issue needs to be addressed.

I said before that the collectors were lopsidedly difficult against adepts and non-dodging classes, but I'm beginning to think they're at least somewhat OP vs. everyone. The Turian Ghost Infiltrator is probably the best faction against Collectors (probably because he's pretty much the best class in the game), but I wouldn't even say that he has an advantage against the Collectors, even if he's using a Harrier with piercing and grenade capacity.

Tech classes have an advantage against Geth, Biotic classes have an advantage vs. Reapers, and a variety of classes have an advantage against Cerberus, but no class really has an advantage against Collectors. At best, there are certain classes that can minimize their own weaknesses against the collectors, either by foregoing powers with cooldowns or using shield-restoring abilities like Stim packs as a crutch. But even these extreme measures do not grant you an advantage against Collectors, they just make Collectors a little less overwhelming.

Scions in particular are the problem, because in many situations there's literally nothing you can do to stop them.  You can flank them, bust open their hump, stagger them, aim for their head, cloak, pop an ammo pack AND stim pack all at the same time (and have your thumb on the stim pack and op pack buttons just in case you get hit), and try to run for cover at the first sign of trouble, and they can still recover to three-shot you with little to no warning, leaving you nable to do anything.  I would know because this happened to me in a silver match, of all things, and the situation I was in met all of the above criteria.  I flanked him, outsmarted him, got the first shot in, staggered him, and aimed in all of the right places, and yet he still won, despite me outsmarting him, out-maneuvering him, outgunning him, and using a completely broken kit.  To top it all off, he wasn't even possessed.  This is not good game design.

Word!

This.
I hate,when mods respond in threads about posting personal pics or some banners and crap like that,but ignore treads like this.
Simple answers like "We noticed a problem about Scions" or "We are working on it",would be enough.

[nanotm]

the problem is they responded about the problems wiht the latest dlc and patch combo on one of the 30 threads about the same problem within hours of it being reported, do you really expect them to agree wiht something more than once just beacuse the op was too lazy to use search ?

there workign on a fix and one day hopefuly some time soon we will get a result, i'm hopeing today's balance adjustment will be to tone down the faction in general (how can everything dodge bullets when there shooting soemthign else which then kills them cos they turned around ??)

atm there not scaling properly which will require a patch to fix, so in the mean time just making scions /pretorians weaker /swarms weaker/bombers weaker /dragoons weaker will fix the none scaling issue untill they can be brought back into line wiht the difficulty levels by a full patch


oh and also it would be nice if the mods did combine all the multiple threads if nothing else this would make the boards more navigatable

[samichR4TC]

Scions, Praetorians, possessed C. captains & husks, swarms---intentionally WAY TOO POWERFUL as enemies or bugged, I don't mind it. THEY are a challenge---fighting against them in BRONZE/SILVER matches can be a lesson in itself if you're preparing to tackle SILVER/GOLD matches, respectively. So, they came back to retaliate in a BIG way and at times defeating them is difficult.
But isn't retaliation always a double edged sword in a vicious cycle? Payback against these collectors can happen, people--IF only "Alliance Command" would bring back the M-920 CAIN 'nuke launcher' from ME2. How about making the Reaper Blackstar appear in multiplayer as a RANDOM 1-time only weapon pick up in the field??
The chances of what I am hoping for actually happening...nah, don't see it.
Just gotta continue to play smart, help teammates, use cover, try and kill them from a distance with 'bug bites' OR grenade/biotically explode 'em to death. Yes, you can do it!!! Patch or not!!!

[corlist]

nanotm wrote...

the problem is they responded about the problems wiht the latest dlc and patch combo on one of the 30 threads about the same problem within hours of it being reported, do you really expect them to agree wiht something more than once just beacuse the op was too lazy to use search ?

Too lazy to use search? Go ahead and show me another thread (using search) that says the scions are doing 2x damage and combo damage is 33.3% less on collectors with a dev response. I'll wait.

[CptGingerbread]

I think the collectors are generally fine as they are. However the Laser eyes and Scion cannon need a bit of tweaking, since I have been hit through solid cover by both :/

There has been times that I've dodged out the way of the laser eyes, leaving at least a metre between them and me and I still get hit, unless that is intentional?
And there is no way that a single Scion shot should take down a krogan soldiers 1850 shield with fortification maxed for DR, on silver...

[rgeshevv]

Still no response... bump

[Doc-Jek]

They were supposed to be an "anti-power" faction, weren't they?

[himegoto]

zorinho20 wrote...

dimeonwu wrote...

VGFM wrote...

Bumping, because I see Bioware respond to much less important topics and this issue needs to be addressed.

I said before that the collectors were lopsidedly difficult against adepts and non-dodging classes, but I'm beginning to think they're at least somewhat OP vs. everyone. The Turian Ghost Infiltrator is probably the best faction against Collectors (probably because he's pretty much the best class in the game), but I wouldn't even say that he has an advantage against the Collectors, even if he's using a Harrier with piercing and grenade capacity.

Tech classes have an advantage against Geth, Biotic classes have an advantage vs. Reapers, and a variety of classes have an advantage against Cerberus, but no class really has an advantage against Collectors. At best, there are certain classes that can minimize their own weaknesses against the collectors, either by foregoing powers with cooldowns or using shield-restoring abilities like Stim packs as a crutch. But even these extreme measures do not grant you an advantage against Collectors, they just make Collectors a little less overwhelming.

Scions in particular are the problem, because in many situations there's literally nothing you can do to stop them.  You can flank them, bust open their hump, stagger them, aim for their head, cloak, pop an ammo pack AND stim pack all at the same time (and have your thumb on the stim pack and op pack buttons just in case you get hit), and try to run for cover at the first sign of trouble, and they can still recover to three-shot you with little to no warning, leaving you nable to do anything.  I would know because this happened to me in a silver match, of all things, and the situation I was in met all of the above criteria.  I flanked him, outsmarted him, got the first shot in, staggered him, and aimed in all of the right places, and yet he still won, despite me outsmarting him, out-maneuvering him, outgunning him, and using a completely broken kit.  To top it all off, he wasn't even possessed.  This is not good game design.

Word!

This.
I hate,when mods respond in threads about posting personal pics or some banners and crap like that,but ignore treads like this.
Simple answers like "We noticed a problem about Scions" or "We are working on it",would be enough.

bump.
for justice.

[BridgeBurner]

Doc-Jek wrote...

They were supposed to be an "anti-power" faction, weren't they?

I wasn't aware they were also supposed to be a double damage faction.

[nanotm]

corlist wrote...

nanotm wrote...

the problem is they responded about the problems wiht the latest dlc and patch combo on one of the 30 threads about the same problem within hours of it being reported, do you really expect them to agree wiht something more than once just beacuse the op was too lazy to use search ?

Too lazy to use search? Go ahead and show me another thread (using search) that says the scions are doing 2x damage and combo damage is 33.3% less on collectors with a dev response. I'll wait.

and whilst trackign the actual figures is a great thing for a player to do, it makes absolutly no differenace to the fact they already stated there are unintended problems wiht the faction, including the damage not scaling properly, there being to many of them, the bugged out dr caused by combo's

i still dont see the requirement to creat yet another thread about collectors being bugged just to use some figures, all it does is loose the problem inside yet another thread on the same topic,

the dr that gets added by a biotic combo isnt even a massive problem wiht them, the combo splosion staggers whatever is close enough to them so you get plenty of time to move /kill whatever there is anyway, same for tech combo's (should they ever actually fire off)

its still cluttering up the boards wiht more threads when the stickied one at the index page already included confirmation that there is a probelm and there looking into ways they can "adjust things" to fix it whilst waiting for a patch ......

(and yes kudos for actually gettign the numbers, its not somethign i could of done)

[nanotm]

Doc-Jek wrote...

They were supposed to be an "anti-power" faction, weren't they?

thee supposed to clamp powers (swarms) making htem mroe difficult as a whole ot deal wiht, three not meant to be resistant in other forms to powers, there not meant to be capable of one shot range attacks either, pretorians lasers of doom ignore shield/health gate, scion lol cannon one shots anyone caught dirrectly or via splash in the 3rd shot, neither of those things is meant ot happen, also the melee attacks of troopers isnt meant ot take you from full health shield ot healthgate to stopped in 2 swings (which it does when they use heavey strike instead of fast strike)

theres a whole host of problems wiht the faction, mostly its to do wiht them not scaling there attack damage properly, they as difficult on bronze as everythign else is on gold (spawn budgets) so unless your rocking some really good players your stuffed in collectors, oh and ghost hazard the rain doesnt strip collector's barriers/shields like it does for other factions

i could go on and on about it but realy it boils down to them not scalling in difficulty (about the only part that does work right is there health/armour/shields increase wiht each level)

[DarthVarner]

Morning visibility bump.

[Flambirex]

And another bump for good measure.

[TheLukerez]

 For a lot of the OP.. Did you ever stop and think that maybe they made them like that on purpose?
I believe they're supposed to be that enemy that makes you sit back and think.. Damn.
The only "bug" I've noticed (I use that term loosely because someone may correct me as to if it's a bug, glitch, etc., though I know it isn't intended) is..
Praetorians floating still around certain corners and getting stuck.  Which ultimately balances out how annoying they are on a LOT of games I find myself in.  It's never anything I do, honestly, I pride myself on a no glitch, no exploit ME3 experience.

[Star fury]

DarthVarner wrote...

Morning visibility bump.

Evening visibility bump.

[Mozts]

Yeah

[Shampoohorn]

Star fury wrote...

DarthVarner wrote...
Morning visibility bump.

Evening visibility bump.

Balance Tuesday visibility bump.

As a refresher:
a) Scion cannons register 2 shots for each animation, doubling their stat line damage.
2) The Collectors take 33% less damage from Biotic Explosions than other factions.

[VGFM]

 Bumping this again.

Also, because I'm getting tired of repeating myself, I'm just going to post my final thoughts on this in one post: I am not saying, nor have I ever said, that Collectors are impossible or that no team composition can have a good match against them.  What I am saying is that, no matter what strategy or build you use against them that you might deem "effective," the fact remains that such a build or strategy would, in all likelihood, be at least TWICE as effective against any other faction.

I have absolutely, 100%, NO PROBLEM WHATSOEVER with the fact that Collectors can delay power cooldowns, or that Praetorians can throw up barriers that make them temporarily immune to powers, or even that the Collectors' design philosophy indicates that they're meant to be an anti-power faction.  I have never complained about any of these things. My problem is that THE COLLECTORS ARE GLITCHED and that, combined with their over-the-top damage and vitality stats (whether they were intentionally designed toward this end or not) result in ARTIFICIAL AND LOPSIDED DIFFICULTY for certain classes moreso than others (though I would still argue that the Collectors are a pain for virtually every class).

Due to the Scion's cannon rendering tanky classes' vitality moot, and Collectors receiving reduced damage from BEs, the collectors have the ability to dampen and, in some cases, completely nullify the single greatest traits of several classes.  It is no different than if there was an enemy type that always received Shuriken-level damage from any weapon in the game.  Imagine that you're a soldier or infiltrator in such a situation, and the instant you grumble about it all you hear is a bunch of players telling you that said faction is meant to be anti-weapon, or if a bunch of adept or engineer-using players rave on and on about how great of a challenge they are and deliver a bunch of condescending rants that amount to little more than saying "L2P."  

Before anyone cries that this analogy doesn't work, consider the krogan - far and away their most noteworthy trait is their vitality and tankiness - many krogan players will spec points out of a power just so that they can have full fitness and full damage resitance from whatever armor power their class has; krogan players deliberately forego other advantages that their class could have, such as melee damage, use of a certain power, or power-boosting equipment, just so they can tank more damage.  Scions' cannons render a krogan no different from a geth with hunter mode and no fitness.  In fact, the krogan is worse off because he can't roll or dodge.  The Krogan's greatest asset and most defining characteristic of his playstyle is rendered completely meaningless because of a number value.  And unlike a sync kill, which can also drop a krogan quick, there's little to no recourse for the krogan to avoid a Scion's cannon - he has no dodge, he's a big target, and he can be hit by it at any range.

There's a difference between designing a faction to employ TACTICS and GAME MECHANICS that make a certain playstyle more challenging or less advantageous (note that this is different from making it weakened or ineffective), and, on the other hand, simply altering a number value in the faction's stats that makes them resistant or immune to a certain playstyle, regardless of what skill or planning the player employs.  Biotics are less effective against Geth, but the Geth do not have built-in resistance to biotic powers - biotic players merely lack the assets that give tech players the advantage vs. synthetics.  The reverse is true of biotics vs. Reapers.  Biotic players and tank-build players do not merely have an absense of an advantage vs. Collectors, they are crippled because of a number value.  That is artificial difficulty and poor game design, period.

Modifié par VGFM, 23 octobre 2012 - 04:28 .

[DS Monkfish]

Bumping for great justice, and hopefully a dev comment.

[Brenon Holmes]

I'm not totally clear on the methodology of some of the tests... but one thing to keep in mind, is that possessed collectors get a health boost. This is a direct modification of the actual health value... which means that normalized combo damage will appear to do "less" on possessed targets.

[VintageUtti]

Well now I know why my Fury feels so week against them on gold. I thought before that Scions were glitched in that sometimes my shots wouldn't register against them, but I guess now it's because they were possessed and my shots didn't even do a bar of damage. I've been playing 90% of my matches against them since Retaliation came out, and although I haven't had much trouble with silver extractions against them, I've been getting through Gold/Cerberus or Gold/Reapers with almost the same amount of effort (and consumables).

Modifié par VintageUtti, 23 octobre 2012 - 05:12 .

[Star fury]

Brenon Holmes wrote...

I'm not totally clear on the methodology of some of the tests... but one thing to keep in mind, is that possessed collectors get a health boost. This is a direct modification of the actual health value... which means that normalized combo damage will appear to do "less" on possessed targets.

What about scion's 3 shot kill cannon?

[Learn To Love Yourself]

Brenon Holmes wrote...

I'm not totally clear on the methodology of some of the tests... but one thing to keep in mind, is that possessed collectors get a health boost. This is a direct modification of the actual health value... which means that normalized combo damage will appear to do "less" on possessed targets.

Thank you for responding, but the OP is claiming that this is the case whether possessed or not.